Laura UnBound wrote:

Good to know people acting inappropriately towards us, verbally and physically assaulting us, and sexually harassing us is "Drama".

You know that not what I meant. I prefer to work with models that like what I do, are comfortable with me and work with a feeling of mutual respect.

J O H N  A L L A N wrote:

I think that's probably just part of the world of doing "erotic" photography. As the lines of what's being (intended to be) produced become blurrier. I can't remember the last time a model I work with referenced this kind of experience.

This was a bridal editorial shoot set up through my agency. Most of my negative set experiences have been on commercial sets with a full team, so gold star for the models you've worked with? Your high horse: get off of it.

I don't shoot erotic, but that's a moot point. I don't care if I'm on set to get gang banged by a football team, that is still inappropriate behavior by the photographer.

What exactly did your comment have to do with the current topic at hand?

Laura UnBound wrote:
Almost every weird situation could be solved by people just stating plainly what it is they want instead of using gross words or weird gestures or beating around it, if you can't just say the word "nipples" like a grown ass adult then Im gonna feel like you shouldn't really be looking at much less photographing mine. Its SO EASY to just not be a fuckin weirdo if its a thing someone actually cares about. None of the people who do this gross shit actually care and would be ashamed to find out that their behaviour wasnt received well. I've done handfuls of shoots that most would consider "explicit" with people who didn't have to give weird names to my body parts or get nervous about telling me to move something or look a certain way. Its doable if people just behave normal.

*slowclaps*

IDiivil wrote:
Some of the responses in this thread have made me sadface.

1. By discussing what models have endured, I do not believe that any of us are, in any way, negating what photographers have endured. This thread is, however, for the models to discuss some of their experiences.

2. There's this response from photographers like they are afraid of being labeled similarly inappropriate, and while I understand the concern (and appreciate that everyone cares), I truly believe it's unnecessary. Most of the examples aren't misunderstandings... This isn't a discussion of, "Crap, I meant to ask you to pose your bottom better, and I didn't say that well."

These examples are situations where one human being was clearly inappropriate to another. I don't think any of you would look at your model and mock her body, make lewd offers, or grab at her without her consent.

2a. In addition to that, for those of you who mentioned other team members getting away with more, I don't foresee any makeup artist, wardrobe stylist, etc to get away with leering at a model and saying, "Look at how wet you are. You're so turned on." They do have some leeway, sure, but not to the extent of the examples being requested here.

3. We're jumping the gun significantly on MM Edu on what kind of article they will ultimately make. Let them gather their data, and once the article is published and we can see how it was executed, we can criticize the manner in which the content was portrayed.

Please be kind.

+1000

Let the thread continue without people interrupting and getting so defensive for a group of photographers you wouldn't even want to be associated with.  We can only control our own behavior and how we treat others.  This is meant to help some people make it clear for newbies that certain behavior is not the norm and not acceptable.

Model Mayhem Edu wrote:
On the contrary, the idea for the article came from feedback we received from models. We've done focus groups, phone interviews, online surveys and many individual meetings and this topic was something that every model mentioned.

Their suggestion was that we create some educational material that will address the problem.

The first step is raise awareness by talking about it, because Ignoring the problem won't make it go away, and the ultimate goal is to help create a better working environment for everyone on MM.

Maybe I don't understand the goal.

Do you believe that photographers will read the article you create from these horrific things said at shoots and change their behavior at shoots?
Do you want to create a warning list of things for models to listen for at shoots to determine if the photographer is being inappropriate?
Are you trying to create entertainment value for the site with anecdotal stories of bad people at bad shoots?

The problem with writing an article like this is that it lacks context.  What I say at a catalog shoot with models I've never worked with before is very different than things I might say at the 7th explicit content shoot with a good model friend of mine.  What one seasoned nude model hears as typical of a well-paid GWC shoot might be horrifying to the newer model trying an implied shoot for the first time because there's $50 attached.

So while I applaud the interest in making MM a better and safer place, I'm not sure compiling terrible and insensitive things said out of LITERALLY thousands of shoots of both experienced and non-experienced models and photographers the world over; will do much to change anything.  Perhaps compiling a checklist of things for models to do and look for before these shoots would be more proactive.  Although I believe more than one article has already been written about that.

A list of things said at shoots that may or may not be appropriate would seem to only serve as entertaining reading, rather than informative or educational.  Then again, I am not privy to how this article might be written or who it will be targeted to.

Greg Kolack wrote:
I am interested in models' take on this.

There was a photographer who used to be quite active here but isn't any more. He had a bit of a "reputation" to say the least.

One of his favorite phrases was "time to get nakey."

Though not nearly as bad as some of the things listed here, it always seemed very immature to me, and said something about his attitude and intention.

Curious what the models here think.

If my best friend who I obviously have built years worth of rapport with and have a pretty good handle on their intentions when around me said it, I'd know it were a joke, maybe even a joke that was also making commentary on the gross shit other people say.

I don't have any idea who you're talking about, so if this person said that to me I'd think he were fuckin weird and be on edge the rest of the shoot waiting for the next weird or gross thing to come out of his mouth.



And for anyone else, I don't want to hear shit about "socially awkward" people, social ineptitude is not an excuse to harass or insult people. If you're a self-professed socially-awkward guy who can't tell how to read people and situations appropriately then the onus is on you to err on the side of caution. If you can't tell if what you want to say will be received well, don't say it, its NOT something you NEED to say. Thats something everyone, regardless of their social skills, has to learn how to do in order to function in society, you don't get a pass.

Model Mayhem Edu wrote:
Models: Please reply with some of the unprofessional and inappropriate things photographers said to you before, during or after a photo shoot.

We intend to publish an article listing examples from this thread in the EDU section of Model Mayhem.

Good grief!!!

What sort of negative solicitation is this????

Please already.

Jen
p.s. will you do the same for incredulous and inappropriate things models say to photographers?!

Flex Photography wrote:
This could be a helpful thing. However, it should not be targeting photographers only. To be fair it should include inappropriate comments from anyone, also including MUA's, Stylists, Models, escorts, etc.
They should either all be included, or you should start separate threads to cover all those participants.
For a one-sided article to be included in EDU, aimed only at photographers, without like articles about other member types, would be grossly unfair, and defame photographers as a group.
Keep it fair!

Yes,

This would make a LOT more sense.

Jen

GM Photography wrote:

Am I the only one that finds it disturbing that Model Mayhem is openly stating it wants to focus on the negative aspects of model photography?  Model Mayhem already has a nasty reputation as a place where photographers go to do bad things. 

I'm all for information to help models be safe and to help photographers conduct themselves with integrity and professionalism, but why focus on the negative?

I find it disturbing and divisive as well.

Jen

Jen B wrote:

Yes,

This would make a LOT more sense.

Jen

https://www.modelmayhem.com/forums/post/961417
See where my post ended up...

Model Mayhem Edu wrote:

On the contrary, the idea for the article came from feedback we received from models. We've done focus groups, phone interviews, online surveys and many individual meetings and this topic was something that every model mentioned.

.

Ha ha ha ha!!

How about focus groups on fixing the site glitches?? Hahahahah, you are sooo funny IB.

HHonor wrote:

https://www.modelmayhem.com/forums/post/961417
See where my post ended up...

Oh thank you, at least you have gotten me out of this thread.

Disclaimer to state that the horrible things some photographers have said to some models is deplorable, however the shameless baiting of this thread to continue to cause divide between models and photographers here is just deplorable!!

Jen B wrote:

Good grief!!!

What sort of negative solicitation is this????

Please already.

Jen
p.s. will you do the same for incredulous and inappropriate things models say to photographers?!

Have you heard of an epidemic of models soliciting photographers for sex when theyre supposed to be working? Is there a rash of women going around verbally harassing photographers to take their clothes off and spread their legs and masturbate for them? Are we out here berating photographers when they wont sleep with us or send us dick pics, are we putting our hands all over them like its our right, are we stalking them, threatening to out them to their families and have their children taken away


You ask models what unprofessional things photographers do and you hear about assault and harassment. Every fuckin time one of these threads shows up thats what you hear most.

You ask photographers what unprofessional things models do, you'll hear about flakes, divas, escorts, dead grandmothers, and chicks that don't understand copyright making silly demands that can't be backed up.

All the "what about the horrors photographers have to suffer!"ers can take a seat.

Jen B wrote:
Oh thank you, at least you have gotten me out of this thread.

Disclaimer to state that the horrible things some photographers have said to some models is deplorable, however the shameless baiting of this thread to continue to cause divide between models and photographers here is just deplorable!!

This is just like what happened 2 years ago where some genius did not allow photographers to post in the model forum site that had been open to all.

This created so much decisiveness in these forums. I wish the folks that thought this was of any value didn't learn what happens when the leadership of the site pits one group against another.

Yes it is not right for photographers to act unprofessional and say any sexual innuendos to a nude model.  That is not appropriate. It is also not right to slap someone's butt, or any  other thing to a model who will consider that a sexual battery. That should be dealt with on a case by case basis with the moderators, as I am sure has been done in the past.

By most models own comments in their profiles they seem to publicly state that they have had good to great MM experiences. Like most things in life there will always be idiots doing the wrong thing at the wrong time, but I think that it is a small minority of their modeling experiences.


Deal with that small minority fine, but don't paint the gender, the profession or the majority by the actions of the few.

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:
By most models own comments in their profiles they seem to publicly state that they have had good to great MM experiences. Like most things in life there will always be idiots doing the wrong thing at the wrong time, but I think that it is a small minority of their modeling experiences

MM is set up so that you can NOT say anything BUT positive things.

Even when they allowed "not recommended"
That was swept under the rug with the new VC system pretty quick so now you are back to only leaving positive VC.

For the most part the amount of negative comments, sexual innuendo, sexual assault, dick photos.....

are the reason I burnt out on modeling for photographers, the art/money was not worth waking up each morning and dealing with so much sexual harrasmnt and sexisim. Not only are models expected to deal with it, they are expected to deal with it with a smile.


So no, it is not a small minority of their modeling experience, it is a pretty major one.

Laura UnBound wrote:

Have you heard of an epidemic of models soliciting photographers for sex when theyre supposed to be working? Is there a rash of women going around verbally harassing photographers to take their clothes off and spread their legs and masturbate for them? Are we out here berating photographers when they wont sleep with us or send us dick pics, are we putting our hands all over them like its our right, are we stalking them, threatening to out them to their families and have their children taken away


You ask models what unprofessional things photographers do and you hear about assault and harassment. Every fuckin time one of these threads shows up thats what you hear most.

You ask photographers what unprofessional things models do, you'll hear about flakes, divas, escorts, dead grandmothers, and chicks that don't understand copyright making silly demands that can't be backed up.

All the "what about the horrors photographers have to suffer!"ers can take a seat.

I'm confused in your own profile and by your own admission " my unpleasant experiences have been few and far between, but they do exist" after you solicit models to seek photographers references from you.

Yet throughout this thread you have made it sound like your "bad" experiences have been pervasive.  And that instead of a very small number probably less then one half of 1% of the photographer base on MM acting in the gross inappropriate ways of  I.e.assault and harassment that you always seem to mention you come across like the number is closer to 50%.

So the OP asked for examples, that's fair... Give the examples.

Anyone model or photographer should never threaten anyone and if they do threaten they should be kicked off the site. As far as I know if those type of complaints were brought to a Moderator they would take appropriate action.

I think what Jen is saying is that IB should find a way to build bridges between the two communities. That there are high numbers of good men who are photographers who act appropriately, who don't harass or assault models.  It would be nice to hear something positive about the vast majority of membership for a change.


That's all

Ionalynn wrote:
MM is set up so that you can NOT say anything BUT positive things.

Even when they allowed "not recommended"
That was swept under the rug with the new VC system pretty quick so now you are back to only leaving positive VC.

For the most part the amount of negative comments, sexual innuendo, sexual assault, dick photos.....

are the reason I burnt out on modeling for photographers, the art/money was not worth waking up each morning and dealing with so much sexual harrasmnt and sexisim. Not only are models expected to deal with it, they are expected to deal with it with a smile.


So no, it is not a small minority of their modeling experience, it is a pretty major one.

Well if your experience has been for the majority of photographers you have worked with I am sorry to hear that.  And you are right if you are treated that way  by anyone for such a long period of time I can understand why you don't want to  model for photographers anymore.

I do have the opportunity to teach art nude photography to photographers at a local studio and we spend at least an hour on the appropriate ways a photographer should act toward models, what they should provide models so the models will have a great experience,What they say during a shoot, how they behave both verbally and non verbally toward models.   It's a start t least

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:

I'm confused in your own profile and by your own admission " my unpleasant experiences have been few and far between, but they do exist" after you solicit models to seek photographers references from you.

Yet throughout this thread you have made it sound like your "bad" experiences have been pervasive.  And that instead of a very small number probably less then one half of 1% of the photographer base on MM acting in the gross inappropriate ways of  I.e.assault and harassment that you always seem to mention you come across like the number is closer to 50%.

So the OP asked for examples, that's fair... Give the examples.

Anyone model or photographer should never threaten anyone and if they do threaten they should be kicked off the site. As far as I know if those type of complaints were brought to a Moderator they would take appropriate action.

I think what Jen is saying is that IB should find a way to build bridges between the two communities. That there are high numbers of good men who are photographers who act appropriately, who don't harass or assault models.  It would be nice to hear something positive about the vast majority of membership for a change.


That's all

I've been lucky in that most of the negative experiences I've had were not what I'd consider "serious" and could fall under "this guy was just a huge dick that made me want to burn the world down by the end of the day, but AT LEAST I wasnt assaulted I guess"

and I've been extremely lucky that those were not so frequent compared to the number of simply "meh" experiences and the much much better experiences.

That doesnt mean that the negative experiences just disappear because I have had some good ones, and it doesnt mean that just because I haven't been harassed or assaulted as bad as some others that my experience is "the norm" or anyone else is lying. I don't have to have personally had everyone elses negative experiences to know that they happen and to stand up for those who have had them happen to them. My personal stats are not representative of the whole. Personally, its not a huge problem for me. On a whole, there is a huge problem.

But regardless of all of that, one dude harassing you is too many dudes harassing you, so it shouldn't matter at all how many I've endured, simply that I have at all, and that should be plenty of ground for me to speak from.

Laura UnBound wrote:

I've been lucky in that most of the negative experiences I've had were not what I'd consider "serious" and could fall under "this guy was just a huge dick that made me want to burn the world down by the end of the day, but AT LEAST I wasnt assaulted I guess"

and I've been extremely lucky that those were not so frequent compared to the number of simply "meh" experiences and the much much better experiences.

That doesnt mean that the negative experiences just disappear because I have had some good ones, and it doesnt mean that just because I haven't been harassed or assaulted as bad as some others that my experience is "the norm" or anyone else is lying. I don't have to have personally had everyone elses negative experiences to know that they happen and to stand up for those who have had them happen to them. My personal stats are not representative of the whole. Personally, its not a huge problem for me. On a whole, there is a huge problem.

But regardless of all of that, one dude harassing you is too many dudes harassing you, so it shouldn't matter at all how many I've endured, simply that I have at all, and that should be plenty of ground for me to speak from.

Could you elaborate?

Model Mayhem Edu wrote:
Models: Please reply with some of the unprofessional and inappropriate things photographers said to you before, during or after a photo shoot.

We intend to publish an article listing examples from this thread in the EDU section of Model Mayhem.

This is not a thread for conversation:

This is a thread for models to reply with their experiences.

Ionalynn wrote:

This is not a thread for conversation:

This is a thread for models to reply with their experiences.

You're new so I'm going to try and be gentle.
But you nor an OP gets to dictate who can participate in a thread, nor dictate that there is no discussion permitted.
Threads are discussion - that's their nature and it will always be so.
I remember a while back a few years when there was the laughable movement to limit participation within the models forum to models. That didn't last long because it was inappropriate, oh and did I mention laughable.

still-photography wrote:
An art director, to a MM model who was very professional in every way, on a shoot for a one of our how-to books featuring knit sweaters, "How about you go over to the lamp post and give us a pole dance while the photographer sets up his lights."

You see, John et al, the point here is not that "they're asking for it" by engaging is morally sketchy concepts. The point is that girls and women routinely have to deal with a lot of shit from males, especially when those males are in authority positions. It doesn't matter if you want to split hairs or try to get equal time for all the times women have abused men in identical situations?!?!?

I have a wife and two daughters and two sisters and countless aunts, nieces, cousins and sisters-in-law. I know that a number of them have been harassed, molested, cat-called, fondled and raped. That's a fact of life in the world, and MM is taking steps to at least minimize some of that horse-shit. So please don't try to argue the points you believe are valid, because those points you're trying to make are NOT valid and you're just looking like an idiot.

By the way, that art director was my supervisor at the time. In spite of the chance that he'd exact retribution on my next pay raise or even my job, I told him any more crap like that and I'd tell his wife!

Yep,
That is pretty disgusting and completely unacceptable an I am glad you spoke up against it at the time!!! That is what needs to happen, others speaking out at the time.
Jen

J O H N  A L L A N wrote:
You're new so I'm going to try and be gentle.
But you nor an OP gets to dictate who can participate in a thread, nor dictate that there is no discussion permitted.
Threads are discussion - that's their nature and it will always be so.
I remember a while back a few years when there was the laughable movement to limit participation within the models forum to models. That didn't last long because it was inappropriate, oh and did I mention laughable.

This may be the most wrong thing ever written on MM - LOL.  Of all the models on the planet - THIS is somebody that speaks from a depth of experience that is beyond the comprehension of the common herd.

Some people have no idea...  But it certainly is a nice example of the patronizing crap models deal with

(My apologies for intruding into the model thread - I have a weak nature and this was simply too rich to pass up)

Vintagevista wrote:

This may be the most wrong thing ever written on MM - LOL.  Of all the models on the planet - THIS is somebody that speaks from a depth of experience that is beyond the comprehension of the common herd.

He has no idea...  But it certainly is a nice example of the patronizing crap models deal with

(My apologies for intruding into the model thread - I have a weak nature and this was simply too rich to pass up)

Go take your ridiculous white knighting somewhere else - the comment has nothing to do with her.

4 R D wrote:
I'll just comment that this conception of "professional/unprofessional" behaviour is somewhat laughable when most of members in this site are not professionals but hobbyists and aspiring enthusiasts. Currently I work mostly with girls who are not professionals and certainly I don't expect them to behave like such.

If you are a model booking paid work here on Modelmayhem chances are that most of times you are going to work with photographers who wouldn't know how to behave "professionally", whatever that's supposed to mean, even if they tried their best. I understand that this is mostly semantics but I think that the use of such jargon as "professional behaviour" only reinforces stereotypes, creates unreal expectations on models and paints with poor light the hobbyist photographer who also is perfectly capable of behaving like a decent human being.

Basic human decency IS professional behaviour.

Theres a difference between a "professional" who makes their living at what theyre doing, and "professional behaviour" - ANYONE can exhibit professional behaviour, anyone with a reasonable grasp of the english language knows this without splitting hairs about it, and theres absolutely nothing wrong with expecting such from the people you are doing any kind of business or work or trade or whatever with. That some guy is not a "professional" working photographer is not an excuse to treat people like shit. Not that actual "professional" people always behave "professionally" either.

As far as models go, for a lot of us, this IS our jobs, and when we show up on set we are doing WORK, so we ARE professionals. That we're not employed by someone else or signed to an agency or pushing papers in a cubicle doesnt make our jobs less valid. Even people who are shooting strictly trade often don't see it as "just goofing around, who cares." Photographers expect models to show up on time, behave themselves, model well, make good on their end of the bargain towards creating useful quality images. Models expect the same of photographers. Very VERY few people book shoots as just some throw-away time waster they don't care about getting anything out of, so professional behaviour is sort of needed.

NewBoldPhoto wrote:
Could you elaborate?

What part of me being the sole authority on my experiences didn't make sense?

J O H N  A L L A N wrote:

You're new so I'm going to try and be gentle.
But you nor an OP gets to dictate who can participate in a thread, nor dictate that there is no discussion permitted.
Threads are discussion - that's their nature and it will always be so.
I remember a while back a few years when there was the laughable movement to limit participation within the models forum to models. That didn't last long because it was inappropriate, oh and did I mention laughable.

The OP is a mod, pretty sure they get to dictate who participates in this thread and in what capacity. Notice all the hidden posts.