Layla_B wrote:
Any opinions on how pictures involving (part) nudity (but not in an erotic way) could affect a future career?

Laura UnBound wrote:
Depends on the career and if someone ever has it out for you. Law, teaching, daycare, etc....better safe than sorry. you wanna open your own restaurant or automotive garage...then who's gonna care?

it depends: Eindhoven, Noord-Brabant, Netherlands

for instance, in greenland or iceland (can't remember which) it's normal to take a sauna after work with coworkers (men & women separately). in europe, the issue may not be the same as in oklahoma or arkansas. or worse in iran, in the united emirates, south africa or india.

personally, the social and cultural stigma shouldn't worry you - but that's a very personal call. i know models that have gone both ways (nude - against nude), and respected both. it simply may close doors in one area and open doors in another. which group of people who's esteem you value and how much you value that esteem needs to be considered. some don't because of family, another doesn't care.

Laura UnBound wrote:
Depends on the career and if someone ever has it out for you. Law, teaching, daycare, etc....better safe than sorry. you wanna open your own restaurant or automotive garage...then who's gonna care?

Are you entering a heavily competitive field where your coworkers will do anything to cut you out of the running for promotions? better not.

Theres hundreds of thousands of people naked on the internet nowadays, for most its not going to be an issue but for all of them there is a POTENTIAL for it to be a huge issue. Everything goes great right up until the day it doesn't, because you've got a vindictive coworker or ex-employee, an angry parent or customer, went through a bad breakup or insulted someone online who decided to spend the next two weeks doxxing you.

At the end of the day you need to consider what you have to lose, the likelihood that a topless photo would cause you to lose it, and if you're willing to lose it.

I'll have to second the above. If I were in your shoes, I would not allow the uncovered photos to go online if there was any part of me that was hesitant. You can always do it later, but if you do it now and later change your mind, you can never undo it. I see you are well-established as a model, and your look so fantastic -- you certainly do not need to do nude shoots to be a successful model. You already are. You've gotten the experience of doing a nude shoot and you have the photos. If beyond that you have a strong desire to have uncovered photos online, I would suggest starting with some artistic type shots that keep your face out of the photo. Then if you have second thoughts later, at least you can rest assured knowing that you are not identifiable in the photos that are already out there.

Just my thoughts, but I tend to be more conservative than most. I don't like the idea of making decisions like what you describe quickly.

Laura UnBound wrote:
Depends on the career and if someone ever has it out for you. Law, teaching, daycare, etc....better safe than sorry. you wanna open your own restaurant or automotive garage...then who's gonna care?
Are you entering a heavily competitive field where your coworkers will do anything to cut you out of the running for promotions? better not.

Theres hundreds of thousands of people naked on the internet nowadays, for most its not going to be an issue but for all of them there is a POTENTIAL for it to be a huge issue. Everything goes great right up until the day it doesn't, because you've got a vindictive coworker or ex-employee, an angry parent or customer, went through a bad breakup or insulted someone online who decided to spend the next two weeks doxxing you.

For my study, I'm not pursuing a career in politics or teaching. But science. Nutrition & Food Technology to be exact, so I'll probably going to end up working at a company doing something like enhancing recipes of products to increase nutritional values or eating experience (or both) (or so I imagine!). I don't think there will be a lot of personal competition in this field.. However, I cannot say for sure of course.
And on personal level, people that have ill-meanings, there is no way to predict that and so can always turn out in potential issues indeed..

Laura UnBound wrote:
At the end of the day you need to consider what you have to lose, the likelihood that a topless photo would cause you to lose it, and if you're willing to lose it.

Thankyou.

MatureModelMM wrote:
If you do decide to go ahead and release the photos, then please make certain you don't ever use your real name in association with your modelling work.  Keep a totally separate profile and stage name. That makes it much more difficult to connect you to the photos, but even that isn't going to guarantee that no one you don't want to will ever see them.

Yes. But since my real name is already associated with my work, would it still work to use a stage name?
I have the advantage/disadvantage(?) that my face is really not standard in modeling. So I think I can be recognized quite easily (or so I think, but maybe I'm biased ).
About 2 two years ago when I just started modeling, a total stranger tapped me on the shoulder when I was shopping with my mum. He said he "recognized me from my photos om MM and that the 'Superman-trick' didn't work!" (I am wearing glasses). He was a photographer so I told him to send me a message on MM.

I also thought about the fact that even without any name attached to the photo, people can still find/recognize you in the portfolio of the photographer. Especially if you have pictures from the same shoot that do have your name attached to them.

Leonard Gee Photography wrote:
in europe, the issue may not be the same as in oklahoma or arkansas. or worse in iran, in the united emirates, south africa or india. (......)
which group of people who's esteem you value and how much you value that esteem needs to be considered. some don't because of family, another doesn't care.

Yes, even within countries there are differences of course. Some people here in NL will be against it, others will love it.
Thanks for the advice

4 R D wrote:
..congratulations for giving yourself an honest chance to do something out of your comfort zone and finding a way to make it work....

Thankyou!
Yes, certainly out of my comfort zone! Indeed I gave notice beforehand that about my concerns, so thankfully I am not facing an issue that we most often read about that the model/photographer did not discuss certain things beforehand and end up fighting over release of photos...

TEGAN wrote:
Also from what I've seen, it's not always about the quantity of clothing you are displaying, but more about the quality of the image, the photographer the image is associated with, what the image is expressing or implying etc. A fully clothed, highly controversial political statement may not go over well with everyone for example. Good luck! smile

Thankyou, yes that is certainly true! I wouldn't agree to a shoot promoting something that I am against. And indeed, I have seen amazing work of photographers that contained nudity but that I, at first sight, did not even notice.

PhotoRealism wrote:
I'll have to second the above. If I were in your shoes, I would not allow the uncovered photos to go online if there was any part of me that was hesitant. You can always do it later, but if you do it now and later change your mind, you can never undo it. I see you are well-established as a model, and your look so fantastic -- you certainly do not need to do nude shoots to be a successful model. You already are. You've gotten the experience of doing a nude shoot and you have the photos. If beyond that you have a strong desire to have uncovered photos online, I would suggest starting with some artistic type shots that keep your face out of the photo. Then if you have second thoughts later, at least you can rest assured knowing that you are not identifiable in the photos that are already out there.

Thankyou so much for sharing your thoughts and kind words! Very much appreciated! (Especially as I don't see myself as a 'well-established/successful' model (yet).)
I am not planning on making haste in this decision, as you say. Once released it's near impossible to undo. I'm thinking it through as thoroughly as possible. That is also the reason I started this topic. And got some great responses so far!
Good suggestion for the faceless artistic shots.

mccStudio wrote:
I don't think nudes will hurt anyone today, especially in Europe.  Next time, don't go by verbal contracts unless you know the person very, very well.

There is this tendency with some photographers here that are completely against contracts, while other swear by them... I usually go with the photographer if he wants a contract signed, okay (I read everything!). If not, also fine, but I do discuss things beforehand.
This was my second shoot with this photographer, so I know he keeps his word. Otherwise I would still have his promise in writing in digital message. It's without autograph and not handwritten, true, but It would mean something if necessary I guess.

Koryn wrote:
I modeled nude for many years, and did quite explicit work for several of those years, and​ am currently a working professional in another field. I do very well for my industry, in my particular area, and have never had an issue with my past coming up. Actually, the only people who ever knew were people I told. I have friends I've had for several years, who still don't know and will probably never know.

That's at least partly because I never, ever put my real name on anything. I also have a very different "look" in my private life; most people could look at a picture of me on the internet and I could walk right by them on the street and they'd not even come close to recognizing me. When I first started dating my boyfriend, I showed him some modeling pictures of me and he asked, "Who's that?"

That being said, if you choose to pursue a highly public job - such as in politics, where people will SEEK to smear campaign you, then you're going to have to understand that they will pull up anything they can find to do that. People will dig and dig and dig to find some poo on the person who's running for mayor. It could be old modeling photos, or it could be that one time in college you got fined for drinking a beer on the streets outside your apartment. It could be anything. People who want to find it will find it.

But you can make yourself hard to find and you can guard yourself and have a rotating series of looks, hairstyles and aliases that do protect you in most normal types of professional work

Thank you for sharing your story Koryn!
My look doesn't really change that much, apart from putting my glasses off during shoots usually. I'm not really the type of person to change my look drastically though. But I can imagine that it would be very effective in reducing the number of people recognizing you!
When I first showed some pictures of my modeling to family or friends, I heard comments like "wow, you look so different!" and "I hardly recognized you!", but I think most of the time people will recognize me if they know what I look like.

Thankfully I'm not pursuing a public career . Politics, but also actresses for example get screened thoroughly by the media. I'm more dancer than actress, so I deem myself a bit safe . In my work I think I will end up in a lab-coat probably. No one ever sees researchers, they usually work 'behind the scenes'. Although you never know if your personal background is going to be screened if your trying to publish a scientific article...

Thank you

TEGAN wrote:
Like Laura stated, you are probably OK with fashion nudes/part nudes in some careers, as opposed to others. Keeping in mind politics, teaching kids etc one would probably have to be very careful modeling period. Regardless of clothing.

...

Also from what I've seen, it's not always about the quantity of clothing you are displaying, but more about the quality of the image,...

I tend to agree with what TEGAN says in her entire reply and particularly with these quotes.

Having said that, I'll say that the impact may or may not be as big as some would think. I went to high school in a part of the United States that is very conservative and traditional in religious views and went to high school in the 70's. We had two high school teachers who were rumored to have posed for Playboy back in the 60's or early 70's. One was still actively modeling, but I never heard of her posing nude after she started teaching. Both of them were seen as being odd, but their careers weren't hurt by whatever evidence existed of their nude modeling careers. I never heard what happened to one of them. The other one was fired for coming to school drunk and sexually assaulting the geometry teacher.

If I understand what you said in your reply, you want to be a researcher in nutritional science. Generally, I'd say that some tasteful nude photos in your background wouldn't hurt you in that field. I would expect you to be working for a medium to large corporation, and most of them now have sexual harassment rules that should prevent someone from using those photographs against you. If you are involved in the basic research side of the field, you won't have that much direct interaction with the public, so your company wouldn't be concerned what people think of you personally. If you are good at your work, the company won't want to lose you over a few people's opinions of something you had done in the past. For that matter, the company probably wouldn't care whether you were actively involved in tasteful modeling of any genre.

Things change, and there's always some danger that whatever you think you want to do with your life now will not be what you end up doing. Another danger is that you'll encounter a situation where people just want to get rid of you. In that case, they'll dig for anything they can use. In the scientific research field, they'll have a hard time making much use of modeling photos, and if management really wants to dump you, they'll find something or make up something to justify their prejudiced decisions.

Leonard Gee Photography wrote:
...for instance, in greenland or iceland (can't remember which) it's normal to take a sauna after work with coworkers (men & women separately). in europe, the issue may not be the same as in oklahoma or arkansas. or worse in iran, in the united emirates, south africa or india...

There's no clear cut line though.

When I lived in Germany I noticed that nudity was common at parks, lakes, beaches, spas, pools.  There were several seemingly family oriented magazines that looked similar to the "Parade" magazine that's found in many U.S. Sunday newspapers but would have a few articles with nudity displayed.  The broadcast TV networks also had some TV programs that are equivalent to what would be shown on Playboy TV here in the USA... nobody gave any of that a second thought...

... but when I came home from the book store with a US edition of Playboy my girlfriend pitched a bitch and yelled at me for bringing home 'pornography'.

Layla B wrote:
Yes. But since my real name is already associated with my work, would it still work to use a stage name?
I have the advantage/disadvantage(?) that my face is really not standard in modeling. So I think I can be recognized quite easily (or so I think, but maybe I'm biased tongue).
About 2 two years ago when I just started modeling, a total stranger tapped me on the shoulder when I was shopping with my mum. He said he "recognized me from my photos om MM and that the 'Superman-trick' didn't work!" (I am wearing glasses). He was a photographer so I told him to send me a message on MM.

I also thought about the fact that even without any name attached to the photo, people can still find/recognize you in the portfolio of the photographer. Especially if you have pictures from the same shoot that do have your name attached to them.

Someone recognized you two yeas ago.  Was he in your same city?  Or was he in a different area?  As a photographer on MM, he would have had many opportunities to review your port.  It isn't the same thing as someone doing a google search on your name.  Don't surmise that because one person recognized you that everyone will.  Some might.  But they would also have to make posts on the internet linking the two names.  Using a separate stage name for different genres is not a guarantee; it is only a layer of separation.

Your continent's cultural norms are sufficiently different from this one.  I will say that people are fickle.  Someone mention Melania Trump.   If that had been Michelle Obama or Hillary Clinton (or her daughter), the public opinion would have been different.  On both sides of that election, people were voting against the other candidate.  It wouldn't have mattered what their side's people did because there ways no way in hell that anything could change their minds.

Mary Durante Youtt wrote:
I've had people say they will do nudes but only if their face doesn't show. That either puts a limit on creativity or it pushes it to another level. 

When I look for models, I check out their portfolios to see if there is something that makes me want to work with them. As a model, I think that is what you need to do also when considering a photographer. Especially if you are worried about your future career. It is something to consider especially when you are young. And it is a decision only you can make. 

I shot a friend's son for my underwater project (TF). He was clothed. But because he is in college on a baseball scholarship, his coach/manager/agent would not allow any images to be made public that would be recognizable.  WHAT!!!  I wish I had known that in advance... I worked with it.  I had to get final ok on which images I could use.  Bummer for me.

Because if scholarship boy climbs to the ranks of the paid athletes, coach won't earn credit for past works.

I still think it's BS to tell soneone what they can and cannot do with their spare time, partcularly when everything was within PG13.

Ugh.
Maybe it's time to move back to... Nevermind.

Dea and the Beast wrote:
Because if scholarship boy climbs to the ranks of the paid athletes, coach won't earn credit for past works.

Speaking of Athletes, Olympians April Ross, Aly Raisman and others individually collaborated with ESPN or SI in an absolutely stunning series of nude athletes doing their particular sport. And Madonna did some pretty good nudes with a number of photographers before making it in music. A co-founder of [Patreon?, Zivity?], ditto. It seems to be becoming almost routine.

Dea and the Beast wrote:
Because if scholarship boy climbs to the ranks of the paid athletes, coach won't earn credit for past works.

I still think it's BS to tell soneone what they can and cannot do with their spare time, partcularly when everything was within PG13.

Ugh.
Maybe it's time to move back to... Nevermind.

It happens, I wish I had known before hand.  I traveled an hour to a friend's pool so that he only had a 5 minute drive.  It sucked because he knew that I was going to use the images for promotion and my portfolios.  And we had talked about the possibility of a shoot the year before but our schedules never messed.  Oh well. It could have been worse.  He and his family loved some of the images that I couldn't use.

Mary Durante Youtt wrote:
It happens, I wish I had known before hand.  I traveled an hour to a friend's pool so that he only had a 5 minute drive.  It sucked because he knew that I was going to use the images for promotion and my portfolios.  And we had talked about the possibility of a shoot the year before but our schedules never messed.  Oh well. It could have been worse.  He and his family loved some of the images that I couldn't use.

Then why didn't anyone override coach?

Coach alone surely isn't responisible for deciding who receives scholarship?


RE: career after nudes: Jesus is still doing pretty well. I found this interesting article on it:
http://faithit.com/naked-jesus-cross-ethan-renoe/

Laura UnBound wrote:
While its true that the OPs countries politics vary from americas, thats hardly the issue. You've got conservatives and progressives all over the world, you can be in the most progressive city ever and still find yourself working under a highly conservative boss. They might not be allowed to fire you because they googled naked pictures of you, but there are always things they can fire you for that they hardly need to "prove" in order to just get rid of you. They can refuse to give positive references for you. They can skip you for promotions time and time again. People can fuck you no matter what if theyre so determined.

There are laws against this. In more than one EU country. It's not Dog-eat-dog everywhere.
Same rules do not apply.

Dea and the Beast wrote:

There are laws against this. In more than one EU country. It's not Dog-eat-dog everywhere.
Same rules do not apply.

There's laws against it in the states too...that doesn't mean people follow them.

You can't be fired for having a disability? They just make some shit up about how you're "not a good fit for the company." Cant fire you for being a woman? Make some shit up about how you don't get along with other workers. Can't fire you for needing to take sick leave? Make some shit up about budget cuts.

Most people don't have the time and money after being fired to object to their firing in court. You're not allowed to discriminate in your hiring practices either but it still happens all the time. Most people don't have the resources to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the ONLY reason they weren't hired, or they were fired, was an act of discrimination and not anything else in the whole world their employer could make up, most of which leaves no physical tangible evidence.

Laura UnBound wrote:

There's laws against it in the states too...that doesn't mean people follow them.

You can't be fired for having a disability? They just make some shit up about how you're "not a good fit for the company." Cant fire you for being a woman? Make some shit up about how you don't get along with other workers. Can't fire you for needing to take sick leave? Make some shit up about budget cuts.

Most people don't have the time and money after being fired to object to their firing in court. You're not allowed to discriminate in your hiring practices either but it still happens all the time. Most people don't have the resources to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the ONLY reason they weren't hired, or they were fired, was an act of discrimination and not anything else in the whole world their employer could make up, most of which leaves no physical tangible evidence.

Laura is spot on. This issue is way beyond a topless photo. If a person is horribly vindictive, they'll find their poison, even of the most clean cut conservative types (just think of how many bad, blurry images we used to take of our friends, using disposable cameras, way before Facebook and the like was ever invented). None of us is immune to an unstable person with little time on their hands, looking for chaos. Thankfully, I have personally not met too many that I know of (who would go to such extents anyhow). My point is we all have terrible photos out there in the world, way before we were models, way before the internet was in every home, images that are just awful and could be taken in a number of different contexts if our enemies are that ruthless. But, the style of OP;s imagery with this shot, being fashion, and the fact that I'd like to think that vindictive and obsessive individuals are in the minority...you may well just be fine OP. You've gotten some great advice from others here.

Laura UnBound wrote:

There's laws against it in the states too...that doesn't mean people follow them.

You can't be fired for having a disability? They just make some shit up about how you're "not a good fit for the company." Cant fire you for being a woman? Make some shit up about how you don't get along with other workers. Can't fire you for needing to take sick leave? Make some shit up about budget cuts.

Most people don't have the time and money after being fired to object to their firing in court. You're not allowed to discriminate in your hiring practices either but it still happens all the time. Most people don't have the resources to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the ONLY reason they weren't hired, or they were fired, was an act of discrimination and not anything else in the whole world their employer could make up, most of which leaves no physical tangible evidence.

Not every country runs on suing companies and fear of being sacked, wrongfully or not.
Some countries have a thing called regulations, such as a union rep as part of a team of staff, mandatory for any company with 20 or more employees.
There are countries who pay for the education a job change requires, instead of blindly downsizing.

You can jump up and down like rumpelstilzchen, and fear monger, but the reality is that in Europe people are less likely to facebook stalk a person or do "background checks" for nudity in public in any form.

Coed saunas are common, like someone else poonted out earlier.

Python Photos wrote:
If you are good at your work, the company won't want to lose you over a few people's opinions of something you had done in the past. For that matter, the company probably wouldn't care whether you were actively involved in tasteful modeling of any genre.

Things change, and there's always some danger that whatever you think you want to do with your life now will not be what you end up doing. Another danger is that you'll encounter a situation where people just want to get rid of you. In that case, they'll dig for anything they can use. In the scientific research field, they'll have a hard time making much use of modeling photos, and if management really wants to dump you, they'll find something or make up something to justify their prejudiced decisions

You got a pretty accurate picture sketched there I think, at least for where I currently I am going to end up
And modeling indeed doesn't really connect to science.
But if people really want to get rid of me.. Laura summed it up:

Laura UnBound wrote:
You can't be fired for having a disability? They just make some shit up about how you're "not a good fit for the company." Cant fire you for being a woman? Make some shit up about how you don't get along with other workers. Can't fire you for needing to take sick leave? Make some shit up about budget cuts.

We can't predict the future... Still I do believe in the good in people. So I hope to get to work with motivated colleagues in the future that care more about the work I deliver than my hobbies.
But to be safe, as repeatedly advised, not connecting my name to the image or keeping it to myself would prevent people with other intentions finding the photo. But they can just as well make fun of me being a model whatsoever if they really want to spread negativity about me.

Gunter GWPB wrote:
Someone recognized you two yeas ago.  Was he in your same city?  Or was he in a different area?...It isn't the same thing as someone doing a google search on your name.

Yes, same city. And true, a google search is different. I can choose not to attach any name of myself to the photo.
The photography/modeling-world here in NL seems very small. Even without your name, people know people you know. A designer I am a fitting model for, recognized me on an (unnamed) photo on the IG of a photographer recently. Still, this is then the modeling/photography-scene. And most likely, not many people in my work-field will know that many photographers and models..

Dea and the Beast wrote:
Can't turn a corner in Vienna/Budapest/Prague/Florence/Amsterdam without automatically scanning a pair of tits somewhere.

Haha, yes especially in the Dutch movies directors are nowhere near prudish!

TEGAN wrote:
But, the style of OP;s imagery with this shot, being fashion, and the fact that I'd like to think that vindictive and obsessive individuals are in the minority...you may well just be fine OP. You've gotten some great advice from others here.

KerryClaytonPhotography wrote:
Second, you already have some nearly nude/topless pics in your portfolio...But it's tasteful and artistic, and that is key... I suspect that as long as your pics are artistic, no one in NL will care about topless, and probably not even nude.

Yes I think along these lines too. Content does matter. There was some small scandal about a nudity movie of one of the more famous tv-presenters here in the NL, but the content was nowhere near artistic or fashion. I think it makes a world of difference what kind of associations pictures evoke.

Dea and the Beast wrote:
Not every country runs on suing companies and fear of being sacked, wrongfully or not.
Some countries have a thing called regulations, such as a union rep as part of a team of staff, mandatory for any company with 20 or more employees.
There are countries who pay for the education a job change requires, instead of blindly downsizing.

You can jump up and down like rumpelstilzchen, and fear monger, but the reality is that in Europe people are less likely to facebook stalk a person or do "background checks" for nudity in public in any form.

Coed saunas are common, like someone else poonted out earlier.

It's not fear-mongering to acknowledge that we live in reality where naked pictures of yourself on the internet can easily be used as a weapon against you - it happens WORLDWIDE. If it's not going to cost you your job it can cost you your family, friendships, relationships, mothers in the car-pool line might just be snotty to you and not let their kid come over your house to play with your kid, your sons friends might find you on google and thats kinda fuckin weird for everybody, your church might disown you, you might just get a stalker- whatever it is, there is potential for a woman's naked body to become a problem in her life. It's not fear-mongering to say "this could happen, so just make a decision on whether or not that's something you can live with IF it does." That's just being realistic and practical, that's being prepared, that's behaving like an adult instead of sticking your head in the sand and hoping for the best.


BESIDES all of that, "like someone else pointed out" while social nudity may be commonplace, for some people that's a world away from nude photographs floating around on the internet.