Forums > General Industry > Taking a 'Flake' Break

Photographer

DeanLautermilch

Posts: 321

Sebring, Florida, US

Last two weekends the models flaked one hour before the shoot after giving confirmations the day before and morning of the shoot. In both cases, the 'models' were very surprised that I was not willing to give them a second chance as both said 'can we do next weekend?'

So this weekend is a flake break as I am not even considering a photoshoot. I also wiped out all emails in my MM account.

It is a cost of doing newbies who are on MM to get attention or to play games with male photographers.

Jul 28 17 07:42 am Link

Photographer

Yosh Studio

Posts: 1664

Los Angeles, California, US

its the cost...
You can take a break, but the flakes arent. Their out there every day...flaking on someone

Jul 28 17 12:08 pm Link

Photographer

Eyesso

Posts: 1218

Orlando, Florida, US

I think you're like me in some ways, you are in this for the creativity and not for the money.  But, time is money anyway, huh?   

Two years ago I felt kind of limited by Model Mayhem, so I approached a couple agencies.  Those models don't flake.  Their work ethic is at a higher level....because for them it's not play/pretend, it's their job.   

So my advice is go print up your top 10-12 photos and call up a couple agencies, then go meet with them, and create for yourself another option besides flake n' flake.

Jul 28 17 01:31 pm Link

Photographer

Looknsee Photography

Posts: 26342

Portland, Oregon, US

I like photography because the creative process (or my creative process, at least) involves a lot of problem solving -- little problems & big problems.

I can understand that experiencing a large ratio of flakes can be a big problem.  Seems that lately, there have been a few threads about a missing model causing a photographer to lose $$$ on a location rental and other expenses.

But because of my problem solving inclination, it's kinda surprises me when members here just accept flakes as standard operating procedures.  Some just say what horrible people models are because some are just not "professional", reliable, responsible, mature, etc.  To me, the first step in solving a problem is first recognizing that there is a problem that needs to be solved. 

So, above is one suggested solution -- use agency models.  That could work (probably will).  Other suggestions include...
...  Being more selective when choosing models (which involves researching their track records),
...  Finding ways to obtain quality references & recommendations,
...  Creating contingency plans,
...  and so forth.

I will also admit that it kinda bugs me when photographers just give up & accept their flake ratio.  It especially bugs me when photographers go all curmudgeon, crying about how horrible this current generation of models is.  There are great models out there, and there are approaches that will satisfy everyone's desires.  There are many ways to avoid flakes.

So -- besides "taking a 'flake' break", what are you going to do to improve your flake ratio?

Jul 28 17 05:01 pm Link

Photographer

Risen Phoenix Photo

Posts: 3779

Minneapolis, Minnesota, US

Looknsee Photography wrote:
I like photography because the creative process (or my creative process, at least) involves a lot of problem solving -- little problems & big problems.

I can understand that experiencing a large ratio of flakes can be a big problem.  Seems that lately, there have been a few threads about a missing model causing a photographer to lose $$$ on a location rental and other expenses.

But because of my problem solving inclination, it's kinda surprises me when members here just accept flakes as standard operating procedures.  Some just say what horrible people models are because some are just not "professional", reliable, responsible, mature, etc.  To me, the first step in solving a problem is first recognizing that there is a problem that needs to be solved. 

So, above is one suggested solution -- use agency models.  That could work (probably will).  Other suggestions include...
...  Being more selective when choosing models (which involves researching their track records),
...  Finding ways to obtain quality references & recommendations,

...  Creating contingency plans,
...  and so forth.

I will also admit that it kinda bugs me when photographers just give up & accept their flake ratio.  It especially bugs me when photographers go all curmudgeon, crying about how horrible this current generation of models is.  There are great models out there, and there are approaches that will satisfy everyone's desires.  There are many ways to avoid flakes.

So -- besides "taking a 'flake' break", what are you going to do to improve your flake ratio?

Here we go again.  Why does the OP need to do any of that.  You yourself said working with agency models will work.  They do have a higher work ethic, and they are mostly better models.  If he can use agency models that would be the best way to go. 

I would work to develop a team of models (6 to 8) who want to be a part of what you create. Work with them on a continued and on going basis. Make sure to give them their images quickly.  Find ways to show them that you appreciate what they do.

Money isn't the key, paying models doesnt stop them from flaking. There is a whole thread on this where a model had the photographer fly to her paid her a deposit and she never showed up, after canceling .  Then she wont communicate to the photographer and cancelled her account.

MM may not be the best place to find models any longer.  In fact I find shooting models that were refered to me is a better way to go.

Jul 29 17 08:11 am Link

Photographer

Looknsee Photography

Posts: 26342

Portland, Oregon, US

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:
Here we go again.  Why does the OP need to do any of that.  You yourself said working with agency models will work.

"Here we go again", is a phrase that is better applicable to the start of every "flake thread". 

The OP doesn't have to do any of "that" -- but I suspect that if he doesn't nothing differently, his circumstances are not likely to change.  If he perceives his flake ratio as a problem, I'm simply suggesting that he tries to do something different.  There are tons of suggestions floating around, and the OP is free to choose to try the ones that resonate with him.

I didn't say working with agency models will work, I said working with agency models could or probably will work.  That's a sleazy, scumbag lawyer trick, distorting what people say.

Surprisingly, the rest of Risen Phoenix's post (above) had some constructive suggestions.

Jul 29 17 08:21 am Link

Photographer

Risen Phoenix Photo

Posts: 3779

Minneapolis, Minnesota, US

Looknsee Photography wrote:

"Here we go again", is a phrase that is better applicable to the start of every "flake thread". 

The OP doesn't have to do any of "that" -- but I suspect that if he doesn't nothing differently, his circumstances are not likely to change.  If he perceives his flake ratio as a problem, I'm simply suggesting that he tries to do something different.  There are tons of suggestions floating around, and the OP is free to choose to try the ones that resonate with him.

I didn't say working with agency models will work, I said working with agency models could work.  That's a sleazy, scumbag lawyer trick, distorting what people say.

Surprisingly, the rest of Risen Phoenix's post (above) had some constructive suggestions.

So now that you know I was a lawyer, you call lawyers "sleazy and scumbag".  And by the way you are the expert at distorting what people say.  And I am not the only one who thinks so. 

Lastly, I always have something constructive to say even if it is confronting bullys who try to stop others from giving their opinions.

Jul 29 17 08:28 am Link

Photographer

DeanLautermilch

Posts: 321

Sebring, Florida, US

As the OP my message is I am taking a break. Nothing with change with models flaking. I had two in a row that flaked in the last hour. So for this weekend I am not going to set myself up for another more flakes.

Jul 29 17 09:15 am Link

Photographer

Looknsee Photography

Posts: 26342

Portland, Oregon, US

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:
So now that you know I was a lawyer, you call lawyers "sleazy and scumbag".

Not all lawyers are sleazy scumbags, but many are.  Here's how I come to that opinion:
...  They misquote & distort what I say.  I am careful with my expressions.  When I say "you might lose", a
     sleazy scumbag would say that I said "you will lose". 
...  Sleazy scumbags confuse their opinions with facts, especially with facts we don't have.
...  They tend to counter arguments with ad hominem attacks, as if those score points.
...  They use demeaning tones & insults, in the hope that the other person will give up, because if the other
     guy gives up, they "win".

I've pointed out when people misquoted me.  Can you point out when I've misquoted anyone?

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:
And by the way you are the expert at distorting what people say.  And I am not the only one who thinks so.

Prove the first, and don't care about the second.

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:
Lastly, I always have something constructive to say even if it is confronting bullys who try to stop others from giving their opinions.

I acknowledged that you had something constructive to say.  I don't "own" your "bully" ad hominem attack -- I've disagreed with some of the advice offered, and have said so, and I explain why I disagree. 

No, bullying is singling out an individual with a post directed at a single individual with demeaning tones & labels but with nothing to back it up.

Jul 29 17 12:16 pm Link

Photographer

Black Z Eddie

Posts: 1903

San Jacinto, California, US

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:
Lastly, I always have something constructive to say even if it is confronting bullys who try to stop others from giving their opinions.

What the hell are you talking about?  You do realize this is YOU!  Perfectly example, this thread.  Someone on here is giving their opinion, indicative by words like "to me" and "suggestion" and you're over here badgering them.  You have a bad habit of thinking you are in the side of right.

Jul 29 17 12:25 pm Link

Photographer

Black Z Eddie

Posts: 1903

San Jacinto, California, US

OP, just noticed you've been shooting a lot from the last I saw your profile a year ago.  Good for you, dude.

Jul 29 17 12:25 pm Link

Photographer

63fotos

Posts: 534

Flagstaff, Arizona, US

Eyesso wrote:
I think you're like me in some ways, you are in this for the creativity and not for the money.  But, time is money anyway, huh?   

Two years ago I felt kind of limited by Model Mayhem, so I approached a couple agencies.  Those models don't flake.  Their work ethic is at a higher level....because for them it's not play/pretend, it's their job.   

So my advice is go print up your top 10-12 photos and call up a couple agencies, then go meet with them, and create for yourself another option besides flake n' flake.

good advice

Jul 29 17 01:33 pm Link

Photographer

Tony Lawrence

Posts: 21526

Chicago, Illinois, US

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:
So now that you know I was a lawyer, you call lawyers "sleazy and scumbag".  And by the way you are the expert at distorting what people say.  And I am not the only one who thinks so. 

Lastly, I always have something constructive to say even if it is confronting bullys who try to stop others from giving their opinions.

I can't speak for any other member but a member has changed my quote..   At least in one current thread where he added 'the dream killer'  I believe that was what he said.   Had I done as much I'm sure I would be reported.   He has said things I've never said as well.   We all have a right to our opinions and I would never say someone was stupid or shouldn't offer theirs yet I've been told as much and that same member has asked others why they resuscitated old threads.   Again we all have a right to our views.   Respect the person and challenge the opinion.   That's fair.   Inferring that lawyers use sleazy tricks was a ad hominem attack especially when we know you were one.   I have found you to be reasoned, fair and well spoken.   We don't always agree and that's okay.   

Now lets move on.   Agencies aren't very likely to let their models shoot with unknown to them photographers even for pay.   Agencies bill their clients so they tend to book with businesses and not hobbyists.   Dean should approach local agencies to see if they might allow him to test with their models.   So how does one NOT get flakes.   Lets understand that even professionals get them.   Yep, that's right.   I've been on set for paid commercial and or fashion sessions where models simply didn't show.   These were agency signed models.   The late Gia was known to come late to shoots and flake.   While paying helps cut down on flakes it won't stop all of them.   So what can we do to make others more responsible?   Nothing.   I used to help hire people at a condo I worked at.   People would come it, put in a application with references and not show for their shift and not call.


Dean has however worked with a LOT of MM models.   Flakes can be irritating but focus instead on the models who have given 110%    Understand that when you work with people some will let you down.

Jul 29 17 01:38 pm Link

Photographer

Looknsee Photography

Posts: 26342

Portland, Oregon, US

Tony Lawrence wrote:
The late Gia was known to come late to shoots and flake.

Speaking historically, I believe that Marilyn Monroe had a terrible reputation for showing up hours & hours late.  Legend has it that she drove Sir Lawrence Olivier batty with her tardiness.  But hey, if you wanted Marilyn in your movie, you put up with it.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
So what can we do to make others more responsible?   Nothing.

Well, I agree that it is not our job to make others more responsible.  But I think you are asking the wrong question.  In my opinion, the more relevant question is, "What can we do to avoid the frustration & disruption of having a flake?"  After all, isn't that what the OPs of these flake threads asking? 

I think there is a lot that can be done.  We've covered several suggestions already, and I admit that not all proposed "solutions" or "strategies" would appeal to all photographer, but I strongly feel that if one is properly motivated, one can make improvements to one's "flake ratio".  To me, the only potential pitfall is to continue doing the same thing, hoping that the overall responsibility & responsiveness of the models being selected will improve on their own.  For me, if you want to have fewer flakes, you need to find effective ways for selecting the more responsible models.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Dean has however worked with a LOT of MM models.   Flakes can be irritating but focus instead on the models who have given 110%.

See?  Even Tony has a constructive suggestion.

Jul 29 17 04:18 pm Link

Photographer

Abbitt Photography

Posts: 13564

Washington, Utah, US

I agree the cost of doing business with freelance models, especially newbies is flakier behavior than one would get with agency models.  personally, I can justify the risk of flakier behavior only if it comes at a more affordable cost.   I know some here advocate paying agency rates or higher to freelance models, but that makes no sense to me. 

A few years ago, I took several months off shooting models, and focused on other subjects.   I came back with a fresh attitude and some new ideas about reducing the time I spend dealing with flaky behavior.   None of us can change the overall flaky nature of independent modeling, but we can change how we will individually deal with it.

Jul 31 17 09:58 am Link

Photographer

Risen Phoenix Photo

Posts: 3779

Minneapolis, Minnesota, US

Black Z Eddie wrote:

What the hell are you talking about?  You do realize this is YOU!  Perfectly example, this thread.  Someone on here is giving their opinion, indicative by words like "to me" and "suggestion" and you're over here badgering them.  You have a bad habit of thinking you are in the side of right.

You as well.  But you do not recognize that in yourself.

Jul 31 17 10:03 am Link

Photographer

FIFTYONE PHOTOGRAPHY

Posts: 6597

Uniontown, Pennsylvania, US

https://www.englishshop.se/images/2.27617/cadbury-flake.jpeg

.... what I wouldn't do for one right now.

Jul 31 17 10:12 am Link

Photographer

Looknsee Photography

Posts: 26342

Portland, Oregon, US

Abbitt Photography wrote:
I agree the cost of doing business with freelance models, especially newbies is flakier behavior than one would get with agency models.  ...   None of us can change the overall flaky nature of independent modeling, but we can change how we will individually deal with it.

You almost sound like another frequent contributor.  I advocate -- expend a little more effort in figuring out how to avoid flakes.

Jul 31 17 12:35 pm Link

Photographer

Shot By Adam

Posts: 8095

Las Vegas, Nevada, US

DeanLautermilch wrote:
Last two weekends the models flaked one hour before the shoot after giving confirmations the day before and morning of the shoot. In both cases, the 'models' were very surprised that I was not willing to give them a second chance as both said 'can we do next weekend?'

But did you get the obligatory "my grandmother died" excuse?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnrCsaSICEE

Aug 01 17 08:17 am Link

Photographer

DeanLautermilch

Posts: 321

Sebring, Florida, US

Shot By Adam wrote:

But did you get the obligatory "my grandmother died" excuse?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnrCsaSICEE

#1. Cancelled and said she wanted to do it next weekend. Very surprised that I explained she did not get another chance.
#2. Confirmed one hour before shoot time and then texted at shoot time she stayed working longer. Very surprised that I explained she did not get another chance.

I have never had the grandmother excuse. Most of the time it is 'I don't feel pretty' or 'I was up late partying last night.'

Aug 01 17 11:14 am Link

Photographer

the lonely photographer

Posts: 2342

Beverly Hills, California, US

I have never had a model flake. That's probably because most models here on MM would never shoot with me. A model here told me my name sounded creepy. That's ok with me. I'm trying to figure out why you guys are getting so many flakey situations...so I can avoid it...

Aug 01 17 07:02 pm Link

Photographer

Shot By Adam

Posts: 8095

Las Vegas, Nevada, US

the lonely photographer wrote:
I have never had a model flake. That's probably because most models here on MM would never shoot with me. A model here told me my name sounded creepy. That's ok with me. I'm trying to figure out why you guys are getting so many flakey situations...so I can avoid it...

Some people aren't good at choosing the right people to shoot with and that's the main cause of flakes. Sometimes it just happens though and it usually happens at the worst possible time. I've had agency models flake on shoots. I've had models flake on well-paying trade-show gigs before, you name it. Way more often than not models are never an issue, but it's like anything, you never really remember the above average restaurants you ate at but you always remember the ones who gave you food poisoning.

Aug 04 17 12:50 pm Link

Photographer

Herman Surkis

Posts: 10856

Victoria, British Columbia, Canada

Shot By Adam wrote:

Some people aren't good at choosing the right people to shoot with and that's the main cause of flakes. Sometimes it just happens though and it usually happens at the worst possible time. I've had agency models flake on shoots. I've had models flake on well-paying trade-show gigs before, you name it. Way more often than not models are never an issue, but it's like anything, you never really remember the above average restaurants you ate at but you always remember the ones who gave you food poisoning.

Not a fair comparison.
You do not remember the above average or below average. But you do remember the ones that gave you food poisoning and those that still had you drooling days after the meal.

Aug 04 17 01:11 pm Link

Model

Nat has a username

Posts: 3590

Oakland, California, US

Network with local photographers and see who they recommend.
Find the more active reliable models in your area.
Last minute cancellations happen to everyone, so focus on proactive things you can do to find reliable people when you're ready.
(This is pretty much what I do as a model- build working relationships with artists and schools I know are reliable and pay on a reasonable schedule, accept the risk associated with any new-to-me artist/school even with references. And I'm always on the last minute fill in lists smile )

Aug 04 17 01:28 pm Link

Photographer

Looknsee Photography

Posts: 26342

Portland, Oregon, US

Shot By Adam wrote:
Some people aren't good at choosing the right people to shoot with and that's the main cause of flakes. Sometimes it just happens though and it usually happens at the worst possible time. I've had agency models flake on shoots. I've had models flake on well-paying trade-show gigs before, you name it. Way more often than not models are never an issue, but it's like anything, you never really remember the above average restaurants you ate at but you always remember the ones who gave you food poisoning.

Herman Surkis wrote:
Not a fair comparison.
You do not remember the above average or below average. But you do remember the ones that gave you food poisoning and those that still had you drooling days after the meal.

Yeah, analogies suck.  It's like biting into an apple & finding half a worm.  tongue

At the matter at hand -- I do believe that the "model selection process" is a primary cause for flaking.  From what I can gather, the selection process for the folks who report a large number of flakes goes like this:
   1)  Does the model's looks meet the project's requirements?  If yes, then ...
   2)  Is the model willing to work on the project?  If yes, then ...
   3)  Is the model willing to work for the compensation I am offering?  If yes, then ...
She's hired!

Personally, I have a "step 1.5" in the process above:
   1.5)  Is the model reliable / is there a high probability that the model will show up & work well with me?

There are lots of ways to answer these "1.5" questions, but it doesn't seem that some photographers are even willing to ask them.  I could be wrong, but then again, I experience about one flake every decade, so what do I know?

Aug 04 17 01:40 pm Link

Photographer

LavishPhotography

Posts: 84

Miami, Florida, US

I've finally found a Facebook group (somewhat) for my local area and I'm shooting 2/2 from there; meaning 2 booked and 2 showed up on time and ready to rock. The kicker is, neither one of them are on MM. So maybe give that a try??

My "flake" ratio here has gotten so bad that I just stopped reaching out to "models" completely.. haven't updated my portfolio here in months as well. Another thing I have noticed (which I guess isn't as bad as flaking) is "models" post in the casting calls section and ignore your message/offer to work with them. Guess they're waiting on Terry Richardson to respond to their TF offer with little to no experience and 5 selfies in their portfolio..

Aug 04 17 07:20 pm Link

Photographer

Andrew Bruce

Posts: 122

CLEARWATER BEACH, Florida, US

DeanLautermilch wrote:

#1. Cancelled and said she wanted to do it next weekend. Very surprised that I explained she did not get another chance.
#2. Confirmed one hour before shoot time and then texted at shoot time she stayed working longer. Very surprised that I explained she did not get another chance.

I have never had the grandmother excuse. Most of the time it is 'I don't feel pretty' or 'I was up late partying last night.'

Learn how to spot your flakes. They will mention things into the arrangement conversation that has nothing to do with the plans they made. "I am still hungover". Fully aware they had a shoot the next day. They are prepping you to cancel.

They also like to use a gimmick where they put 100% of the arrangement on you to shift the heat if they flake. So you might text them the address/time of the shoot the day before and they confirm, then the next day you confirm again in the AM about it, as they already have the time/location of the shoot...then, say 7pm comes and they are supposed to be there, you will contact them and they'll say you never gave them the time/location/confirmation. This happens a lot. The weak ones use the grandmother died excuse. Another one to look out for is car accident day of, or ON THEIR WAY TO YOU. But magically never send you pictures of them standing around at the accident scene of their car. You know if they got into a car accident they took pics of the whole event on their phone and sent it to their parents, friends, Facebook and the like. They also like to use the flat tire gag.

Then you are the bad guy if you refuse to work with them again, becaue their "legit" fake flake excuse was something horrible that happened to them "beyond their control!"

Aug 05 17 01:51 pm Link

Photographer

Andrew Bruce

Posts: 122

CLEARWATER BEACH, Florida, US

LavishPhotography wrote:
I've finally found a Facebook group (somewhat) for my local area and I'm shooting 2/2 from there; meaning 2 booked and 2 showed up on time and ready to rock. The kicker is, neither one of them are on MM. So maybe give that a try??

My "flake" ratio here has gotten so bad that I just stopped reaching out to "models" completely.. haven't updated my portfolio here in months as well. Another thing I have noticed (which I guess isn't as bad as flaking) is "models" post in the casting calls section and ignore your message/offer to work with them. Guess they're waiting on Terry Richardson to respond to their TF offer with little to no experience and 5 selfies in their portfolio..

These ones are the best. They usually go into a "how much you gonna pay me" spiel when in reality they shoud be paying us for the work they're about to get for their non-existent portfolio. Then you explain to them how it works, and they tend to agree, arrange a shoot then flake at the last minute and say some idotic retort like "I thought about it and I really need to get paid for these shoots my time is money and this or that". Just block them.

Aug 05 17 01:53 pm Link

Photographer

Looknsee Photography

Posts: 26342

Portland, Oregon, US

Andrew Bruce wrote:
Learn how to spot your flakes.  ...  So you might text them the address/time of the shoot the day before and they confirm, then the next day you confirm again in the AM about it, as they already have the time/location of the shoot  ...

Here's a generic comment, not directed at Andrew or any other individual.

We all do what we gotta do, but if we expect "our" models to behave like responsible adults, then why do we insist on countless confirmations, calls on the day of, "on my way" calls, and so forth -- aren't these anticipating that they are not responsible adults?  Personally, I like exchanges in good ol' e-mail with clear date, time, and location number -- if/when they agree (via e-mail), we have an audit trail, and I don't feel that constant badgering is necessary.  But that's me & my "once a decade" flake ratio.

Andrew Bruce wrote:
These ones are the best. They usually go into a "how much you gonna pay me" spiel when in reality they should be paying us for the work they're about to get for their non-existent portfolio.

I disagree with this sentiment.  If you don't want to pay a model, you can always say "no".  If you think that a model should be paying you, you can always ask for payment.  If you think trade is appropriate, offer a trade arrangement.  The model is free to accept or reject your proposal, and the model can make a counter offer.  But being all judgmental and starting a negotiation in a confrontational or condescending manner -- that's just counter productive.

Aug 05 17 04:25 pm Link

Photographer

Tony Lawrence

Posts: 21526

Chicago, Illinois, US

I can't speak for others but I call to confirm appointments all the time.   Things happen and people forget.   I confirm doctors appointments for example.   More then once doing so has saved me from wasting time.   Many if not most of the models here are young and not always very responsible.   You can't make someone reliable or show up and always remember that when you are asking others to work with you for free which most of this is that they may change their minds last minute and your offer of great photos may not be as appealing as a movie with a friend or a date with a new guy.

So what can you do to insure more session actually happen.   Many models don't have cars.   Some would loved to be picked up and dropped off.   That may not be for every model but some.   If you can't pay a lot sometimes things like jewelry or clothes or a gift card to Victoria Secret or another store may be something a model could use.   In Dean's case it should be noted he's worked with a LOT of models.   We in general focus too much on our failures and not our success.   In my case models have driven hours to work with me.   Several have posed nude for trade in filthy sketchy old factories and buildings.   Some have bought new outfits.   Quite a few have paid for makeovers.   More then a dozen have bought me lunch and dinner and have come early.   

Once I had forgotten about a trade shoot and a model waited HOURS for me and when she called I had to take a bus to her.   Its human nature to focus on  things that don't work.   I understand that and those who never have flakes.   That's wonderful.   Thanks for telling us lowly folks but those who say this aren't aren't always honest in my view and even if if its the truth has no bearing on the interactions others have in other cities and states and who in many cases aren't paying.   Its a less then subtle way of thumbing their nose at others.  Its just rude.

Aug 05 17 05:13 pm Link

Photographer

Looknsee Photography

Posts: 26342

Portland, Oregon, US

Look -- I'm just saying that it's kinda a double standard to expect people to act like responsible adults and then to turn around and treat them as irresponsible children by requiring multiple confirmations & by constantly checking up on them.  A single reminder -- well, for some that's okay.  Multiple reminders -- I feel that if the model (in this case) is responsible, they shouldn't need more than one. 

And frankly, I just don't understand how the photographer - model relationship works for some people when, judging by the chatter on these forums, the relationship is so adversarial.  First, there's establishing the dominance -- who's in charge, who's better, who should be paying whom, etc.  Then there is "negotiations" over compensation, intermixed with lies & misleading terminology -- "I like your look" and "let's collaborate" mixed with "I won't pay you" and "the experience will make you better & help you find paying work".  In addition, there's all the undocumented assumptions, as in "stupid model wants all the RAW images", etc.  Finally, I believe that if one constantly blames other people for one's problems, those problems aren't likely to go away.  If ya got a problem, figure out how to avoid it or stop complaining about it.

Aug 05 17 07:28 pm Link

Photographer

Looknsee Photography

Posts: 26342

Portland, Oregon, US

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Its human nature to focus on  things that don't work.   I understand that and those who never have flakes.   That's wonderful.   Thanks for telling us lowly folks but those who say this aren't aren't always honest in my view and even if if its the truth has no bearing on the interactions others have in other cities and states and who in many cases aren't paying.   Its a less then subtle way of thumbing their nose at others.  Its just rude.

That "thumbing their nose at others" -- there is nothing in the previous posts that justify that conclusion.

Aug 05 17 08:03 pm Link

Photographer

Tony Lawrence

Posts: 21526

Chicago, Illinois, US

People use MM forums to bitc% about things but I suspect its mostly about venting.  I know one who used to complain about models all the time but he had plenty of willing models.   Its human nature to sometimes whine when things go south.   Its also not about 'fixing' anything.   I see MM forums like a neighborhood bar where a friendly barkeep listens to husbands yap about their wives.   Some may come in and say horrible things but they aren't leaving their ladies.  Look, none of us have the answers for other people because we don't know their exact situations.   We also tend to only hear one side of a story.   Perception is truth though.   No one should in my view tell anyone what they should post on these forums unless you're a mod.   I see posts about investing, movies and more from one person and no one tells him he shouldn't post nor should they.

People often know that the person listening to their issues have no real answer.   They tend to just want to be heard.   If your solution is to put them down or tell them they are at fault or that you (general remark) don't have any problems then perhaps examine why you feel the need to do so.

Aug 05 17 08:15 pm Link

Photographer

Risen Phoenix Photo

Posts: 3779

Minneapolis, Minnesota, US

Looknsee Photography wrote:
That "thumbing their nose at others" -- there is nothing in the previous posts that justify that conclusion.

Pleas Note: This is directed to Tony's message.
Tony I don t have flakes and havent had one since I decided to shoot on a trade basis only in 2012.  I am very careful to vet the model first.  I read their profile, if it is just a couple sentences I just pass.  If they list stripper rates I just pass.

When  I send a message to a model telling them I am interested in working with them, I am careful to note how they respond.  If they don't respond to my work or an interest in working with me I just pass.

I also try to have a sit down with a model who is new or who I have never worked with before.  If they think we can discuss their first shoot over some texts I just pass.

Do I confirm my shoot with a new model?  I sure do, three days before the shoot.  If they dont confirm the shoot within 24 hours I cancel the shoot.

As Andrew has said there are so many models who don't take work seriously , want to be paid with no book.  Think they deserve $150 an hour just because they are willing to get naked (or not) with no skill set to back up their rates. 

Definately models can do what they want, charge photographers the highest rates possible, charge a reasonable amount tied to their abilities, work on a trade basis and heaven forbid maybe even pay a photographers.

Photographers can do what ever they want.  They can pay the models rates or not.  If a models tells me how wonderful my work is and then just come back at me with rates.  I simply say no thank you and wish them well with their modeling.

I know for most of these models they will become inactive in three months and then quit within their first year.

Tony, I think if  photographers keeps working on their skils, begin to create images that models want in their portfolios , their flake rate will improve.  However if a photographer only ever wants to shoot the newest models on MM and not establish a working relatioship then their flake rate will continue.  But at the end of the day I don't care what others do.  I only care about what I do and how I work with my models.

Aug 05 17 08:39 pm Link

Photographer

Tony Lawrence

Posts: 21526

Chicago, Illinois, US

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:

Pleas Note: This is directed to Tony's message.
Tony I don t have flakes and havent had one since I decided to shoot on a trade basis only in 2012.  I am very careful to vet the model first.  I read their profile, if it is just a couple sentences I just pass.  If they list stripper rates I just pass.

When  I send a message to a model telling them I am interested in working with them, I am careful to note how they respond.  If they don't respond to my work or an interest in working with me I just pass.

I also try to have a sit down with a model who is new or who I have never worked with before.  If they think we can discuss their first shoot over some texts I just pass.

Do I confirm my shoot with a new model?  I sure do three days before the shoot.  If they dont confirm the shoot within 24 hours I cancel the shoot.

As Andrew has said there are so many models who don't take work seriously , want to be paid with no book.  Think they deserve $150 an hour just because they are willing to get naked (or not) with no skill set to back up their rates. 

Definately models can do what they want, charge photographers te highest rates possible, charge a reasonable amount tied to their abilities, work on a trade basis and heaven forbid maybe even pay a photographers.

Photographers can do what ever they want.  They can pay the models rates or not.  If a models tells me how wonderful my work is and then just come back at me with rates.  I simply say no thank you and wish them well with their modeling.

I know for most of the models they will become inactive in three months and then quit within their first year.

Tony, I think if a photographers keeps working on their skils, begin to create images that models wantin their portfolios , their flake rate will improve.  However if a photographer only ever wants to shoot the newest model on MM and not establish a working relatioship then their flake rate will continue.

I think you are one of the best art nude shooters on MM.   I can see why models wouldn't flake on you.   There are dedicated models who show up and love too model.   You have found some.   I suspect Dean and others tend to constantly look for new faces.   This comes with some risk no matter the talent of the photographer.   I have been at studios where agency hopefuls didn't come for tests arranged by their agents.  You can bet the agents heard about it later.    I also get 'models' .  As a member once said this site is full of unreliable dreamers.   They aren't relying on modeling to pay bills.   Most have zero desire to improve their portfolios beyond the basic selfies they have.   Like you I confirm shoots (usually I ask models do so.)   I've learned not to sweat over things I can't control.

Models either show up or they don't.   I just dislike those who tell others what they should post or those who brag about no flakes (not meant for you.) Worse they put other photographers down.   Its great for example if they belong to a local group of photographers they can go to to ask about new models.   I would guess many if not most here don't belong to any local groups.   Does that mean they deserve flakes?   Does not paying mean they deserve flakes?   I don't expect models always show but I do expect a text, email or call to let me know they aren't coming.   That isn't just about professionalism  its good manners.   My feeling is most of the flake threads are posted by folks who didn't vet the models.   However I used to hear from a MM model who would flake all the time.   

Finally she showed.   I asked her what the deal was and she told me she was practically homeless.    A thing I believed when she arrived with several suitcases of clothes and a laptop, etc.   When she set our sessions up, shi@ would happen.   Anybody who's worked with amateur or pro models has flakes.   The Infamous Gia was known to flake.   MUA, flake.  I had a MUA beg to work with me.   Day of the group shoot... Flake.

Aug 05 17 09:05 pm Link

Photographer

Looknsee Photography

Posts: 26342

Portland, Oregon, US

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I just dislike those who tell others what they should post or those who brag about no flakes (not meant for you.) Worse they put other photographers down.

Again, I don't see anyone telling others "what they should post or those who brag about no flakes.  And I don't see anyone putting anyone else down over their flake ratio.  Seems to me...
...  Most "flake threads" include an explicit or implicit request for what the "flaked upon" should do.
...  It is clear to me that "flake ratios" vary greatly from photographer to photographer.
...  Seems to me that those with a lower flake ratio might have something useful to contribute.
And ironically, it also seems to me that some posters put photographers down if they have a low flake rate.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Its great for example if they belong to a local group of photographers they can go to to ask about new models.   I would guess many if not most here don't belong to any local groups.   Does that mean they deserve flakes?   Does not paying mean they deserve flakes?

I don't believe that anyone is claiming that someone deserves flakes.  I also believe that most posters consistently suggest that each photographer choose the strategies that fit best for them.  I'm an advocate of building a local community, and I would suggest that relying on a local community helps avoid flakes, but no one is insisting that a local community is the only way to avoid flakes or that everyone must form & join a local community.  A local community is just one suggestion, and there are several other good suggestions under discussion.  As always, photographers are free to do whatever they want to do.

From a previous post:

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I understand that and those who never have flakes.   That's wonderful.   Thanks for telling us lowly folks but those who say this aren't aren't always honest in my view and even if if its the truth has no bearing on the interactions others have in other cities and states and who in many cases aren't paying.   Its a less then subtle way of thumbing their nose at others.  Its just rude.

Again, no one else is suggesting that people with low flake ratios are lying.  And I disagree -- those with a low flake ratio should have a lot of constructive suggestions for those folks who wish to avoid flakes.  No one else is suggesting that people who experience flakes are "lowly folks". 

And parenthetically, no one has suggested that some cities and/or states have higher flake ratio than other cities or states.  I admit that's an interesting thought -- is it true?  (I'm a firm believer in the law of supply & demand, and different locations have different supplies & demands, so it could be true).

Aug 06 17 08:02 am Link

Model

Nat has a username

Posts: 3590

Oakland, California, US

Every market is different. Every market has a general "culture" if that makes sense.

Specific to photo gigs- In LA everything is booked last minute for the most part, in my personal experience. I get a lot of work filling in for last minute cancellations when in town. NYC I have more luck planning in advance with people, but I don't ever dare plan farther than a week out for LA. Working in a smaller market outside of major cities can be hit or miss and depends on a lot of factors.

For art modeling work, each market I've worked in has its quirks and differences. And markets evolve; when I lived in NYC the market was different than it is now, and that was only a few years ago.

What works for one person in one area may not work in another area. Location is a super important factor.

Aug 06 17 09:05 am Link

Photographer

Looknsee Photography

Posts: 26342

Portland, Oregon, US

Nat has a username wrote:
Every market is different. Every market has a general "culture" if that makes sense.

Specific to photo gigs- In LA everything is booked last minute for the most part, in my personal experience. ...

What works for one person in one area may not work in another area. Location is a super important factor.

Interesting.  Local "culture" can play a factor.

In the music business, sync license requests (i.e. licensing songs for placement in TV, movies, and ads) are often "last minute", and if you can't respond in an hour or two, you'll likely not place your song.  Understand that a song can have multiple copyright holders, and there might also be the master recording copyright involved -- we have to be nimble to be successful.

Aug 06 17 10:25 am Link

Photographer

Risen Phoenix Photo

Posts: 3779

Minneapolis, Minnesota, US

Tony Lawrence wrote:

I think you are one of the best art nude shooters on MM.   I can see why models wouldn't flake on you.   There are dedicated models who show up and love too model.   You have found some.   I suspect Dean and others tend to constantly look for new faces.   This comes with some risk no matter the talent of the photographer.   I have been at studios where agency hopefuls didn't come for tests arranged by their agents.  You can bet the agents heard about it later.    I also get 'models' .  As a member once said this site is full of unreliable dreamers.   They aren't relying on modeling to pay bills.   Most have zero desire to improve their portfolios beyond the basic selfies they have.   Like you I confirm shoots (usually I ask models do so.)   I've learned not to sweat over things I can't control.

Models either show up or they don't.   I just dislike those who tell others what they should post or those who brag about no flakes (not meant for you.) Worse they put other photographers down.   Its great for example if they belong to a local group of photographers they can go to to ask about new models.   I would guess many if not most here don't belong to any local groups.   Does that mean they deserve flakes?   Does not paying mean they deserve flakes?   I don't expect models always show but I do expect a text, email or call to let me know they aren't coming.   That isn't just about professionalism  its good manners.   My feeling is most of the flake threads are posted by folks who didn't vet the models.   However I used to hear from a MM model who would flake all the time.   

Finally she showed.   I asked her what the deal was and she told me she was practically homeless.    A thing I believed when she arrived with several suitcases of clothes and a laptop, etc.   When she set our sessions up, shi@ would happen.   Anybody who's worked with amateur or pro models has flakes.   The Infamous Gia was known to flake.   MUA, flake.  I had a MUA beg to work with me.   Day of the group shoot... Flake.

Tony I have to say that you are right.  And if I would aim to only try to shoot new faces I am sure I would have more that a few flakes also.

I agree that it would be great if a model would text or call letting the photographer know they are not going to be able to make it and then ask to reschedule.  When I was new at this 10 years ago if I got flaked on it reminded me of when I went to my Junior High Dances.  When I was a geeky 7th grader I would watch all the 8th and 9th grade girls.  Eventually I would screw up my courage and ask one of these older girls for a dance.  They would smile say they would love to only to to remark that we so tired.  I would walk away thinking I would wait a dance or two to ask again.  Then I would watch the girl go and dance with a 9th grade boy.  In many respects this is what it is like for a newer or a mediocre hobby photographer  experiences when he asks models of any level to pose.  Initial excitement to no interest in going to the shoot.

That is why I created my model team.  This allows me to work with 6 to 8 models who want to be a part of what I do.  Do they flake?  Never.  Do issues come up? sure from time to time but they always call me in pleanty of time.  They always reschedule  to shoot within the next couple of days.  It is easy for me to call one of the other models on my team to take their place.

Aug 06 17 12:44 pm Link

Photographer

Herman Surkis

Posts: 10856

Victoria, British Columbia, Canada

I wonder why most of this thread sounds vaguely familiar?

I have almost flaked on a couple of occasions, Shit and memory loss happen.

You have to go for the new ones. If you leave it for any length of time, they will be gone. Pissed at all the asshole photographers, frustrated at not earning $100/hr with no experience, or they got all the FB images anybody could possibly want, or simply got bored with the whole thing. So you have to live with the high newb flake rate.

I do not consider reschedule. a day or two ahead to be a flake.
I am rarely flaked on, because I don't shoot that much, and I am careful who I book. In the recent past I have been flaked on by 2 models that I knew and had worked with. Both called at the last minute. One was too upset due to a fight with hubby, and the other a form of panic attack.

I am just talking to 2 new to MM young ladies. Pushing my luck since I had a few good shoots recently with dancers and agency models. So wish me luck.

I still cannot work my way around the backup bit. I do not want to book 2 for the same time since I find it difficult to work with more than one at a time, and it would make me uncomfortable to have one sitting around while I work with the other. Having one on standby is tricky since everyone is making time and planning for shoots with me, so I cannot think of anyone for standby. The only thing that might work is one and then the next one 3 hrs later. I can find stuff to do for 3hrs if the first flakes, or I am done early if the second flakes. If both make it, I will be very tired.

Or I could stop this, sell off all my studio crap, stop paying rent on a shared studio, and go get drunk.
Hmm...
Last sounds good, except for the bloody hangover.

Aug 06 17 06:21 pm Link