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So… just how bad is harassment in this industry?
I've heard horror stories from one or two models, a photographer masturbating during a shoot, asking for "favors" to release shots and more unpleasantness here and there. But just how bad is it? It's something I haven't given much thought to until the whole Weinstein thing. Nov 02 17 05:39 pm Link It's a jungle out there. Always better to stay subterranean. Nov 02 17 06:32 pm Link It is bad EVERYWHERE! People like to highlight the "industry" because it lets them pretend that sexual harassment & assault doesn't happen other places.... it does, everywhere. A few other well documented places: Church Colleges Night clubs Dentist offices..... (a number of years ago, there was a huge media about dentists who were drugging patients and assaulting them) If you spend the time to listen to what women are saying, you'll learn that being a model/photographer does not increase the chances, being a female does. Not even a full grown women, MANY children are harassed before puberty. I am a 40 year old woman who can not count the number of times I have experienced the full gamut from harassment, to assault, to rape. Just a few weeks ago, some guy on public transit, took the time to scream at me. A few days ago, I had to confront a guy at a local neighborhood party who has been sexually harassing me for years. Last night I get an email from some guy who CIRCUMVENTED the dating app, (I did not match with him) tracked me down, and sent me an email. It's been a slow month. Nov 02 17 06:33 pm Link I just had this discussion with one of my oldest friends... he used to be a male model in NYC in the 80's..., and he said that during that time, he got hit on by gay photographers, gay stylists and designers... older straight women with money, who were looking for that striking German aristocrat, with blue eyes and long wavy hair. My first wife, Jamaican, used to be a model and competitive ballroom dancer in the late 70's and 'til the mid 80's... she also talked about her version of C'mons..., harassments and later, working with a big entertainment industry law-firm, being hit on by Warren Beatty, and Mike Tyson in clubs... Side note... after Tyson invited her to come with his limousine to his hotel, after she declined, he was totally cool with it, understanding and let go immediately... which gave her a unique view on Tyson's accusations and trial later on... Anyway..., from what I am hearing... this more or less aggressive approach to hook up has been around for a very long time..., women had been less aggressive than men, which was a gender role thingy... but it also happened... Just a few years ago, during fashion week, the drunk'ish CEO of a fashion company I shot for, asked me if she can lick my "a_ _ hole", which I played off with a joke, but it was uncomfortable. Harassment and rape is bad, no doubt..., but now the world topples over and people "telling" on now famous people, about comments they've made decades ago, and suddenly careers being ended or endangered of people who slipped 30 years ago, like the drunk, partied out Kevin Spacey, who put his clothed body on a guy on a sofa... who then was traumatized for the rest of his life??? I don't know... where's the line? If we were famous, we have to think back if we ever said or did anything inappropriate in a distant past, that could come back to haunt us now... Not sure how to grasp what is going on right now... we are living in very angry times... Nov 02 17 07:34 pm Link Ionalynn wrote: ... Nov 02 17 07:37 pm Link There's a local with a similar reputation, hitting on the girls He works with, withholding images for non-cooperation. He continues to work. Nov 03 17 02:16 am Link Girls/women and femme-people in general - in all facets of society, and every occupation - literally GROW UP being harrassed, belittled and sexually mistreated in various ways. I dealt with things like verbal sexual harassment and rape threats far more as a little girl in middle school than I ever did as a full-time model, traveling alone through the US. But, I dealt with it then too, just to lesser degrees. As an adult, it has always been more subtle and passive-aggressive. This is not the exception; it is the NORM for American women. Nov 03 17 02:22 am Link I shot art nudes with a male person of advanced age who needed explaining that spreading my legs is not what we agreed upon (that's pretty much just a given at shoots like those), and then he asked for a hug every 20 minutes because I'm "so adorable". Nope. When random people hear what I do, I become a trophy, not someone they want to get to know. My own husband married his own little trophy, and I think he reveled in the knowledge that his Navy chums were whispering about the "mail order porn bride". A guy started talking to me at the cheese ilse (there is this $5 or less basket of imported cheeses so I stoop and rifle), and then proceeded to follow me around the rest of the store. I'm too polite or had a timid day or whatever to tell him to fuck off and I'm kinda done going outside for the week Then there are the male models, when 5 out of 5 (over the years) took it too far and once the photographer even "helped". I don't need to be lifted out of the bathtub, my legs work just fine. I don't need you adjusting my labia for me. I don't need to see closeups of some other "model's" unclean vulva. I don't need to hear about what you do when your wife isn't looking. I don't need you to berate me or belittle my feelings or call me names when I say No. I was repeatedly groped and molested as a teenager and even before. So much therapy. *crawls back under rock* Nov 03 17 04:06 am Link udor wrote: Would that statement about licking your asshole be taken differently if she wasn’t drunk & attractive to you? Nov 03 17 06:17 am Link Here's one common definition of harassment: "Unwanted and annoying actions by one group or party" Most harassment policy I've seen hinges on the word unwanted or unwelcome. The thing is anything can be unwanted or unwelcome, so much of what makes harassment common or uncommon is a result of how welcoming an individual tends to be about certain actions. I could regularly make positive comments about someone's dress. One person might welcome that comment and consider it a compliment. Another person might not welcome that comment making it harassment. I saw one video in which a woman considered people saying hello to her to be harassing. I've been accused of harassment for swimming too fast during a swim workout. If we consider any unwelcome action to constitute harassment, (As many harassment definitions state) then of course harassment will be very common. Nov 03 17 07:12 am Link Abbitt Photography wrote: At my current place of work, one guy kept making disparaging comments about his wife. He flirted with young, clueless new-hires and used 8 hours a day as a personal vent-space for his unhappy life. Nov 03 17 07:24 am Link Just as an interesting aside, I once worked as a creative director at an all female advertising agency (well, at least until I arrived at their door) . . . I know, I know, it sounds like one of the "real" letters in a Penthouse forum . . . and, even though most of the people at the agency knew I was in a full-time, live-in relationship, it became uncomfortable after just a few months . . . after several overt "offers", and a couple industry function, and business trip situations, I stood up at the Monday morning meeting, and told everyone in the room that I was happily committed to the person I was living with (and showed everyone a photo of her), and that was not going to change or be put in jeopardy by the job I was now at . . . that seemed to help, at least for awhile, and most of the people there who were at my (job) level or below took note of the boundaries I'd stated . . . not so much with those above my station, there were two people in particular (one a VP, the other owned the agency) that would not be put off, and made it crystal clear that if I intended to stay at the agency, and advance, that I'd better be "ready, willin' and able" . . . it was kinda tough, because it was a great job, with a very well known agency, and at the time, I thought it was an important step forward in my career . . . but, I felt compelled to walk away, and never regretted it, I found out later that the two people in question had a history of making a competition out of "having their way" with an agreed upon trophy, and reveled in showing off their "wins" to the other party . . . I guess my point is that obviously this isn't a completely gender specific issue, from either the hunter or prey perspective, but more an endemic reality of people in power positions over others, I remember a study that stated after a person is in a position of power for over 5 years, they start to lose their sense of right and wrong in different situations, and social correctness was one of the situations that became problematic . . . it further stated that a lot of the worst offenders were those that had been "wronged" in some way as they were growing up (haven't we all), and sought to balance the ledger now that they had sway of one kind or another . . . I'm not sure how to stop, or control situations like this, but the frequency that they're being brought to light certainly seems to be increasing . . . I saw Dustin Hoffman's name being bandied about the other day, I doubt he'll be the last we hear about . . . SOS Nov 03 17 07:31 am Link Koryn wrote: Not to belittle the way things are here, but I recall a time many years back when my sister went with her BF to Egypt on vacation. One evening in the hotel bar a local struck up a serious conversation with her BF and tried to buy my sister from him for three camels. Fortunately, he declined the offer. Nov 03 17 11:33 am Link I have been accused of harassment. I went on a shoot that was supposed to be an "engagement" shoot (two people acting like they were engaged). I asked them to act like they were about to kiss each other (not actually do it) and told they were going home because they weren't going to deal with the sexual harassment. ???WTF??? There is no doubt in my mind that sexual harassment happens all the time and in all sorts of places. I used to pride myself on not participating. I'd only touch the people modeling for me if their life were in danger (fortunately this never happened) or I was helping them up or down. If I were helping them down, I'd ask them if they wanted help first and then what they wanted. I'd have felt guilty if I didn't ask and they fell. If they got injured, it would've been even worse. If I offered and they said no, I'd still feel guilty but not as guilty because I asked. A few other times models got angry with me because I asked them if they liked to be told they were pretty or if anyone ever asked them to pose nude (not that I was asking). A few times it led to in depth and interesting conversations. A few other times they were just angry and it showed. I can't control what anyone else does or how, but I just try not to do these things myself. If there is a hair out of place, I'll ask them if I can move it (or if they will). I don't ask anyone to remove their clothing (but won't say anything if they opt to remove their shoes). The closest I came was a model who had on a shirt that had spaghetti straps with bra straps showing. I asked her if she could move the bra straps, perhaps take her arms out and move them into her shirt. She said she'd remove the bra. Okay. I turned my back, she removed the bra and handed it to her friend/escort and the shoot continued. It was a great shoot, too. Nov 03 17 11:56 am Link Lightcraft Studio wrote: To be completely fair, it wasn't so long ago that buying human beings was normal - in this country. My great-great-grandmother came from "out west." Her husband traded two horses for her. She was about 16 years old at the time. That was only around the turn of the century; slavery was technically illegal, but clearly, that didn't matter. It's not like we cornered the market on civility or anything. Lol Nov 03 17 12:15 pm Link Koryn wrote: My last boss I had when I last worked in the corporate world (in Los Angeles) was/is married to a woman, and their marriage was arranged for them by their families when they were little kids. It still happens today, in lots of places. I have no ides if she's happy in that arrangement or not, since on the few rare occasions he brought her to company functions she always sat on the sidelines by herself and no one could ever talk with her. Nov 03 17 12:51 pm Link Nov 03 17 12:56 pm Link Jules NYC wrote: That's a good question, but not complicated to answer... Nov 03 17 04:12 pm Link udor wrote: Honestly to me, the question would be an immediate turn-off even if the guy was super attractive in the physical sense. The proposal just makes me think of an STD. Nov 03 17 06:46 pm Link Jules NYC wrote: Possibly... but I am getting old and my memory is feeble... Nov 03 17 07:11 pm Link udor wrote:
Nov 03 17 07:28 pm Link its bizzare but I think there is such a level of sexual frustration that is the underlying cause. men not being able to get what they want so they start getting sort of stunted emotionally and turn women into fetish objects. I wonder if technology will put an end to all that. I suspect 100 years into the future robot technology will evolve good enough to take the form of humans and look and move as humans do. it will obviously have a sex industry angle. they will be customizeable with personality AI and body type. so I wonder in in an age where....everyone...can have exactly the type of woman or guy they want in the privacy of their own home...when and where they want sex, what the implications will be. I suspect its going to be a very interesting social case study to see the effect on regular dating if men and women can bypass the human courting phase and simply have the type of person you desire. Nov 03 17 07:47 pm Link Abbitt Photography wrote: +1 Nov 04 17 03:54 am Link Hunter GWPB wrote: § 2709. Harassment. Nov 04 17 01:06 pm Link Apparently it never stops either, at 65 I still get inappropriate comments about what someone would like to do during and after a photo shoot, requests to present poses that are beyond my clearly stated comfort zones, offers to shoot sexual acts with the photographer, basically the same kinds of things that were happening at 35. It's not always the older photographers or artists who are doing it either, I have been propositioned for inappropriate types of photo shoots and art modelling by photographers and artists in their 20's more times than I can remember over the years. Nov 04 17 01:48 pm Link Over 25 years ago, there was a popular little cartoon that some women put on the wall at work, in dorm rooms, and in other personal places. (In those days, we didn't have electronic images, so they had to use a copier to spread the "meme.") I guess we'd call it a "meme" today, but at the time, I just thought of it as a poster or cartoon. The cartoon showed a gingerbread man on a little plate next to a glass of milk. The caption was, "The perfect man - He's soft; he's warm; he's sweet; and when you get tired of him, you can just bite his head off." One can look at this cartoon in a couple of ways. Sometimes, the perspective depends on what one knows about the person displaying this cartoon. When one doesn't know about the person, one can sometimes choose how to interpret the message. The first perspective on this cartoon is to understand the range of emotions that relationships cause all of us. Relationships can produce great joy and pleasure, but they can cause great pain and frustration. This perspective realizes that both men and women experience these feelings, particularly the frustration. In this perspective, the cartoon is not a woman's cartoon against men. Instead, the cartoon is just a funny reflection on the joys and pain that both sexes experience. The second perspective on this cartoon is to see the cartoon as a representation of selfishness, ugliness, and violence. In a literal sense, the cartoon represents women objectifying men and seeing men as tools only for their own pleasure. When a man is no longer a source of pleasure, using violence against him is considered acceptable or even desirable. In this perspective, the purpose of the cartoon is to communicate open hostility towards any man in the vicinity. I've met women whose display of this kind of cartoon would represent each perspective. The problem here isn't a woman's attitude problem. The problem is a people's attitude problem. I've seen plenty of men who have each perspective coming from the direction of men's feelings towards women. Generally speaking, one doesn't need to see a cartoon on the wall to tell what kind of person someone is. Those who have the horrible attitudes and horrible perspectives are pretty obvious regardless of what they display on their walls. We can't rid the world of people who have the attitude of seeing every other person as an object to be used and discarded, but we can be careful about judging whether someone has this kind of attitude. We can try to see words and actions in as benign a light as possible until we have evidence to the contrary. I don't doubt that many women have run into harassment and abuse, but I also know that many seem to have such a chip on their shoulders that the rest of us avoid them to avoid false accusations and general hostility. We're all going to make mistakes. I was once working on a costume and made a comment that could be interpreted badly. A friend was helping with the shoot and standing a few feet away. Later, he told me what I had said. He said that the model looked shocked for a moment and then realized what I had really meant. When she realized what I had meant, she had fought mightily to keep from laughing at me. He said they both had to look away from one another to keep from laughing. All of us have different styles. Some of us are going to have good chemistry together, and some aren't. When the chemistry is a little bit bad, that shouldn't be a big problem. When the chemistry is very bad, the shoot is going to be unpleasant even if the shoot produces decent images. Some of us probably don't realize when our personality isn't matching well with that of another person. In terms of the photography world, I don't know how widespread the problem is, but I'm not an active, involved part of the general community. I don't hang out with other photographers or models. I like photography, but I don't fit the social profile of most people in the community. I'm not good enough technically to carry on unrelated conversations with models when I'm shooting, and I rarely have in-depth conversations with models outside of shooting or preparing for a shoot. I haven't talked to more than half a dozen photographers in any depth, and while none of them has ever admitted to or bragged about doing something wrong, we weren't close enough that they would. The problem is undoubtedly real, but I don't know how big the problem is. Another issue could be that several different kinds of problems come into play. I suspect that fewer than 5% of photographers are actual predators. I suspect that another 5% are perpetually clueless about the frightening impression that they produce on others. A second-level issue is that maybe another 10% of photographers come across in a universally unpleasant way even if they aren't threatening. If we assume a third-level issue that any given model may have bad individual chemistry with 30% of photographers, then we're looking at a situation where a model shooting with a new photographer has a 50/50 chance of a dangerous, frightening, or unpleasant shoot. Considering physical disparities between men and women and the fact that models will often be either unclothed or in clothes that impede her ability to act in an emergency, I can see why the issue is very serious and very sensitive for models. On the other hand, many photographers are going to feel defensive about these accusations because we don't want to be lumped in with the 5% of true predators or 5% of cluelessly threatening when our only shortcoming is that we're at times awkward or just don't always have great chemistry. Everyone makes innocent mistakes, and no one wants to be lumped with evil just because we made an innocent mistake. I don't have a solution. I was recently contacted by one photographer who was being accused of things by another photographer. I have no way of knowing which one was right, and I certainly wouldn't have taken sides without evidence. I've seen cases where the biggest offenders are often the quickest accusers. Their posturing allows them to win the confidence of other people and protects them from accusations. Furthermore, I have no way of influencing anyone for or against either of them. Until a better solution arises, the best precaution may be for models to develop face-to-face relationships with other models to compare notes. Having those conversations online is pointless because no one knows who is reading and because cliques and counter-cliques form in every controversy. I wish I could offer a better solution, but all I can really do is try to deal honorably with any model who shoots with me. Nov 04 17 05:14 pm Link Brilliant Jonathan Pie on sex allegations in the UK: Jonathan Pie: Scandal in Westminster "... having a hand on someone's knee (or flirting) is not the same as constant sexual assault" (Paraphrased by me) Nov 05 17 09:18 pm Link udor wrote: the line is where the line has always been - where you cross someone's consent. What's "going on right now" is simply that people who have had their consent violated are tired of being silent about it. Nothing about this is hard to figure out, all the hand-wringing about "what the world has come to" and how you're supposed to interact with anyone "these days" is fabricated by people who don't want to do any work to be conscious and respectful of others. Nov 06 17 04:28 pm Link Laura UnBound wrote: Makes perfect sense! Nov 06 17 04:33 pm Link Girls remember- a little pepper spray in the eyes and groin go a long way. If You feel threatened, spray and walk out but call the cops and tell them what He did and what You did. They will probably laugh and arrest Him. My spray sprays pink so He can't deny He did it. Nov 06 17 04:34 pm Link Pete Bliss photography wrote: Have you bothered to READ all the issues presented in this very thread? Nov 06 17 06:09 pm Link Ionalynn wrote: It was reported in today's newspaper. Nov 06 17 08:01 pm Link Jerry Nemeth wrote: Narrow it down for me, please? Nov 06 17 08:15 pm Link Interesting thread, that has not yet turned into a train wreck...yet. There are no easy answers once you get beyond the easy answer. The hysteria has made things impossible. If flirting or coming on to (hitting on) someone, is now to be classed as harassment, ain't nobody ever getting it on with anybody. Which actually would be a could thing since marriages and pregnancies would plummet, and the population would be reduced. Harassment is defined and needs to stay as Persistent Unwanted Attention. Key word is the persistent. Back in antiquity, in my day, good girls were taught to say 'no' 3-4 times before before they said 'yes'. I have been severely berated because I tended to always take the first 'no', as no and that was the end of things. OK, I was not that good at reading the messages that meant "I have just said no, but I want you to keep trying". I could never understand why the assholes were doing all the dating and getting all the action. It was simply because they never took no as no. And of course then we start to get into the power imbalance crap. That is not likely to ever go away. And as has been pointed out, it is a matter of power imbalance, and less about male/female. And I am repeating Udor's link, since it pretty much makes my point in a far more entertaining manner. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsXC1_Z … e=youtu.be Better not ask anybody out more than once, or you could go to jail. Better not flip your hair at me or i could decide to consider it unwanted attention and call out harassment. In fact do not ever, ever dress sexy in my presence, because that could be classed as enticement, and I could call out harassment. See how easy it is to go overboard when the hysteria starts. So far this thread has been educational and interesting. Nov 06 17 10:58 pm Link Unfortunately common sense is lost, especially on certain Western Countries (Anglophones in primis), and this is the result. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Nov 07 17 03:46 am Link Herman Surkis wrote: I remember those days! When I was in college, I had a conversation with female friends about asking women for dates. I would ask once and only once. One of my closest female friends was dismayed, and said that a woman may really be busy that night and would want to go out with me. Well, I suppose she could then express that sentiment, if it was true. Of course, good girls didn't say such things. So, according to my friends, I was expected to endure the lies that were suppose to let me down easy. What was required? Three strikes? Eventually, and partly as a result of that conversation, I developed a philosophy to never ask for a date for a particular day. I asked if she would like to go out sometime. The intention was to force a yes or no response. It generally worked well. I got an occasional maybe. It was fun to watch a woman choke back the disrespectful auto response as she realized that saying she was busy that night wasn't going to work. Nov 07 17 05:01 am Link Herman Surkis wrote: The whole 'hard to get' bullshit is so passive aggressive and juvenile. I seriously don't get it. I figure if there are two emotionally healthy adults in the mix, you SHOW interest and it's reciprocated. Unless you have a personality disorder, this is a good way to operate. Nov 07 17 05:33 am Link Hunter GWPB wrote: It's all bullshit. Nov 07 17 05:37 am Link You know how hardcore Tupac was. I worked on this video, not on the production side. I was a juror but didn't make it in the edit. I had blonde hair at the time and was wearing a beautiful red suit. I think I was the only white girl on set. I played a juror. It was one of the videos I was a part of in that 'scene' (Snoop/Tupac). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SB2qwq7-7NY The extended version or whatever had a bunch of girls in the hot-tub and they got in the edit. I wasn't doing that but meeting those guys was super interesting and honestly cool. WAY more fun than working in an office. lol PS, there are plenty of famous actors (including women) that did whatever they had to do to get the part. If that's your bag, you have to look yourself in the mirror. There are plenty of people that don't mind. Nov 07 17 05:42 am Link Jules NYC wrote: No, no, no, no .... Nov 07 17 05:50 am Link |
