Herman Surkis wrote:
This is NOT the models forum.
They have their own private exclusive, males unwelcome forum.

Models are, or were, welcome to come into the "photographers" forum and talk photography.
They just chose to not get into the geeky Canikon wars.

Wow, talk about a coincidence, I just CAM'd about just this, and yes, this information has been confirmed by a MM Administrator.  And from what I was told, there are no plans for a males only photographers forum because of lack of demand.  So, are we going to create a demand?  I don't think that'll happen, too many white knights here

Herman Surkis wrote:
Sitting in a private group and complaining that photographer XYZ has breath that would strip paint helps models stay away from them. But this is not much more helpful, since XYZ never hears about it, and can never doing something about it, and another potential source of $$$ falls by the wayside.

Try this:

... and don't get gray hair about the rest, cuz from what I understand it aint happening.

Herman Surkis wrote:
This is NOT the models forum.
They have their own private exclusive, males unwelcome forum.

Models are, or were, welcome to come into the "photographers" forum and talk photography.
They just chose to not get into the geeky Canikon wars.

Are Male Models not allowed to join the Models forum ? ( serious question )

Garry k wrote:
Are Male Models not allowed to join the Models forum ? ( serious question )

No, they are not, it is a safe place for women.

Ionalynn wrote:

No, they are not, it is a safe place for women.

I can see the merits of that ....

but when is the last time we have seen a male model post in this forum ?


They are perhaps the most under represented group of all in terms of forum participation

Herman Surkis wrote:
This is NOT the models forum.
They have their own private exclusive, males unwelcome forum.

Models are, or were, welcome to come into the "photographers" forum and talk photography.
They just chose to not get into the geeky Canikon wars.

Love the way you think!  I saw in another thread someone referring to it as the Model's Forum.  I guess being able to read the byline for the forum was too much for some people to do because they're just too busy.

Ionalynn wrote:

No, they are not, it is a safe place for women.

Safe place for women?  Is that needed around here on MM?  Are women being harmed?  No?  And even in the real world, men are 4-5 time more likely to be murdered and victims of violent crimes than women, but we need a safe place for women?  Sound like in reality, it's a paranoid stance on a perceived danger.  In reality, we need a safe place for men.  Maybe us photographers should demand we bring an escort for our safety.

Abbitt Photography wrote:
*Despite fewer and fewer males going onto college compared to females, many schools have no boys allowed educational opportunities to help promote girls in education.

*We passed legislation designed to get K-12 education to focus on girls. (and it worked!)

*Under title ix, schools routinely adjudicate accusations of sexual assault in ways the deny the accused (mostly male) due process.  This was done specifically because of gender. 

* Despite and equal right to fight in combat, women are still exempt from selective service registration.

* We have a council for women and girls to represent the female interest in public policy while the same for males has been blocked.

* We have a Department of Women's Health, but no Department of Men's Health.

* We have a Department of Labor Women's Bureau, but no men's bureau.

* Women can often play on men's leagues, but men can't play on women's leagues.  (PGA - LPGA for example)

* We have a few laws advantaging women owned small businesses over male owned.

*  It's legal to charge men higher car insurance because they have higher claims.  It's illegal to charge women higher health insurance premiums because they have higher claims.  (and more mandated  "free"services)

*  Women are less likely to receive a prison sentence for the same crime compared to men and when sentenced tend to receive notably lighter sentences.

* Men are victims of violent crime more so than women and have 4-5 times the risk of being murdered, yet we have violent crime legislation aimed specifically at lowering crime against women, no legislation aimed at lowering the incidence of crime against men specifically.

*  Men's sports are often cut under Title IX when more males choose to participate in athletics, yet having wellness programs such as aerobics be 90% or more female, is perfectly acceptable.  There was talk of placing quotas on men going into STEMs, but majors like women's studies, nursing psychology, sociology, etc. being female dominated is fine.

etc. etc......



Herman, it seems to me, MM having a forum for female models only, fits right in.

One point to make of course is that you are referring to the gender matters in your country - while MM is a global site

Garry k wrote:
One point to make of course is that you are referring to the gender matters in your country - while MM is a global site

Indeed, other examples would apply to other countries.  Canada only funding domestic shelters for female victims and not male victims for example.

Also, while people from all over participate in MM, IB/MM is a U.S. based company.

Isaiah Brink wrote:
Safe place for women?  Is that needed around here on MM?  Are women being harmed?  No?  And even in the real world, men are 4-5 time more likely to be murdered and victims of violent crimes than women, but we need a safe place for women?  Sound like in reality, it's a paranoid stance on a perceived danger.  In reality, we need a safe place for men.  Maybe us photographers should demand we bring an escort for our safety.

Personally I think it would benefit you to research the safety of female models in our society quite a bit more before expressing such an opinion


Overall in North America - there is a very significant difference between the genders in terms of the numbers who experience sexual assaults

Reportedly 1 in every 6 women is raped while 1 in 33 men suffer the same sexual violence

https://www.rainn.org/statistics/victim … l-violence

Garry k wrote:
Personally I think it would benefit you to research the safety of female models in our society quite a bit more before expressing such an opinion


Overall in North America - there is a very significant difference between the genders in terms of the numbers who experience sexual assaults

1.  That's the same mentality that was used in the southern U.S. half a century or so ago to justify white only spaces that kept whites safe from more dangerous blacks.

2.  Physical assault risk has little to do MM forum participation.  I think your criticism is therefore very flawed.   

3.  You cherry pick one single crime in which women are victims more than men, but in the U.S. at least men are overall victims of violent crime more so than women, and victims of murder at a notably higher rate.


According to this source, men have traditionally been victims of violent crime in Canada far more than women as well.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/85- … -1-eng.htm



Western societies tend to focus on violence against women much more so than violence against men, but it's not because women are victims of violent crime more so than men are.  It's the same with safety in general.

Abbitt Photography wrote:
1.  That's the same mentality that was used in the southern U.S. half a century or so ago to justify white only spaces that kept whites safe from more dangerous blacks.

2.  Physical assault risk has little to do MM forum participation.  I think your criticism is therefore very flawed.   

3.  You cherry pick one single crime in which women are victims more than men, but in the U.S. at least men are overall victims of violent crime more so than women, and victims of murder at a notably higher rate.


According to this source, men have traditionally been victims of violent crime in Canada far more than women as well.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/85- … -1-eng.htm



Western societies tend to focus on violence against women much more so than violence against men, but it's not because women are victims of violent crime more so than men are.  It's the same with safety in general.

1) thats an absurd comparison to make

2) over the years the MM forums have been reflective of some of the attitudes and behaviors of its members . The forums have also been a place where newcomers and others can seek advice and even help from other members if they have a concern or are experiencing a problem .Best that they get real and helpful advice rather than say being doubted , criticized for speaking up . shamed or even blamed for what they are going through / have gone through

3) Its not really " cherry picking " an example when its argueably the most important issue with respect to the integrity and continuence of this site .

Garry k wrote:
2) over the years the MM forums have been reflective of some of the attitudes and behaviors of its members . The forums have also been a place where newcomers and others can seek advice and even help from other members if they have a concern or are experience a problem .Best that they get real and helpful advice rather than say being doubted , criticized for speaking up . shamed or even blamed for what they are going through / have gone through

Now, those are points that actually relate to forum structure.  My point is your previous comment about crime victimization was not so relevant, (and flawed since men are victims of violent crime more than women are)

Whether or not the points you make here justify having a forum that doesn't allow photographers or male models is debatable, but I think at least these comments are  more on point.

Abbitt Photography wrote:
Now, those are points that actually relate to forum structure.  My point is your previous comment about crime victimization was not so relevant, (and flawed since men are victims of violent crime more than women are)

Whether or not the points you make here justify having a forum that doesn't allow photographers or male models is debatable, but I think at least these comments are  more on point.

Well I will go on record as saying that as a member I was one of the earliest advocates for a Modelling Forum only for Models .... I was kind of surprised  ( after so many years ) that MM decided to create a private forum specifically for female models - but I understand the basic reasons for such a decision

Again though - Violent Crime is not synonymous  with Violent Sexual Crime

Garry k wrote:
Again though - Violent Crime is not synonymous  with Violent Sexual Crime

I think most people would agree being murdered is worse than being sexually assaulted, and of course not all sexual assaults are the same.  Battery can include anything from a slap to be beaten with in an inch of death.   My point wasn't to say murder, battery, sexual assault and other violent crimes are synonymous or the same.   My apology if I insinuated they are.

Garry k wrote:

Personally I think it would benefit you to research the safety of female models in our society quite a bit more before expressing such an opinion


Overall in North America - there is a very significant difference between the genders in terms of the numbers who experience sexual assaults

Reportedly 1 in every 6 women is raped while 1 in 33 men suffer the same sexual violence

https://www.rainn.org/statistics/victim … l-violence

I doubt your sources.  You're a white knight.  I'm done here, you're not worth even talking too, I can give you more evidence of facts and you wouldn't listen to a one.  My opinion.......  Is that what you call facts now?

Isaiah Brink wrote:
I doubt your sources.  You're a white knight.  I'm done here, you're not worth even talking too, I can give you more evidence of facts and you wouldn't listen to a one.  My opinion.......  Is that what you call facts now?

Well ....Given that many  of the statistics they are citing are from the US Dept  of Justce - i thought possibly those were good sources

PhotoACR wrote:
pardon my naivete, what is a "white knight" in reference to this thread.

I think the member who called me that has left the thread - so I will offer my interpretation of what he said

Anyone who stands up in defense of Models

PhotoACR wrote:
pardon my naivete, what is a "white knight" in reference to this thread.

A "white knight" is somebody who will use any sort of false information and irrational arguments and lot listen to reason for facts.

Garry k wrote:

I think the member who called me that has left the thread - so I will offer my interpretation of what he said

Anyone who stands up in defense of Models

I wouldn't try to interpret what somebody else says, you're horrible at it.  I'd start with basic reading, and reading comprehension, where you need all the help you can get.  Sorry, but sometime the truth is hard to hear, but you at least deserve to hear it.

Herman Surkis wrote:
A white knight is someone who always jumps to the defense of the poor helpless models, whether they need it or deserve it. The male photographer is almost always wrong, no matter the point being made.

Now the intent was never to start this kind of social discussion, but I really should have fore.seen this happening.

Men and women are victims of different types of crimes in different ratios. The linked site pretty much says so with, god forbid, actual facts. Traditionally given the patriarchy, women have been overly protected and overly abused. This quickly becomes a sociological discussion that goes beyond anything possible here.

When I was actually still in practice, the feminists were defining abuse. And the definition was so broad that one could say that 100% of women were victims of abuse. What was ignored, or denigrated was that the same standards when applied to men, would say that 100% of men had been abused.

What happened on this forum is that it somehow became the models forum, instead of the forum to discuss things about modeling.

Somehow it never became that "Photography Talk" became a photographers only forum, just one to discuss photography. Models quite rightly stayed away from the techie penis size comparisons. However photographers were capable of helping each other out with problems. This is what models wanted. Someplace where they could help each other with advice. Well the advice they gave each other was often not only wrong but potentially detrimental, the same as often happened in the photography forum. Except that the models did not want to hear some male photographer correct them. And of course you would have the typical asshats that would always chime in and mansplain. Someone would want to find out models perspectives on a subject, and models could barely get a word in edgewise. This irritated the hell out of a lot of people, not just models. And then many of the confrontational by nature models made it clear that photographers and especially males were not wanted, even if they happened to have the answers to a question about modeling.

Now the female models have their own little echo chamber where they can tell each other that they deserve $100 per hour with no experience or abilities. Then they can complain about being ignored and then leave. This forum is the only place I have seen where models discussed how they would like to be treated. But discuss does NOT mean that everybody is going to agree with you. Some people may actually have a different point of view. And of course for many a different point of view means having to run back to your safe space. (this is becoming a social trend, so not just here)  So, information deprivation is becoming the norm.

And yes, a major part of this whole problem has been several asshat 'know it all' photographers. But please note that female models were never major participants of the forums, except for a few, and those few were well worth listening to.

Well Herman ....that is your interpretation of what went down ( and for some reason you almost sound bitter )

But I note that really You have only been a member of this site since 2010 and thus really can't speak about the good old days when Female Models were far more active in the forums ( and in this forum )

I have no doubt that in all your years of experience you have met some radical feminist who claims that all women have been abused and have also met some radical anti feminist who claimed all men have been abused .....but you know we are talking about facts and statistics not isolated individual opinions

Herman Surkis wrote:
A white knight is someone who always jumps to the defense of the poor helpless models, whether they need it or deserve it. The male photographer is almost always wrong, no matter the point being made.

Now the intent was never to start this kind of social discussion, but I really should have fore.seen this happening.

Men and women are victims of different types of crimes in different ratios. The linked site pretty much says so with, god forbid, actual facts. Traditionally given the patriarchy, women have been overly protected and overly abused. This quickly becomes a sociological discussion that goes beyond anything possible here.

When I was actually still in practice, the feminists were defining abuse. And the definition was so broad that one could say that 100% of women were victims of abuse. What was ignored, or denigrated was that the same standards when applied to men, would say that 100% of men had been abused.

What happened on this forum is that it somehow became the models forum, instead of the forum to discuss things about modeling.

Somehow it never became that "Photography Talk" became a photographers only forum, just one to discuss photography. Models quite rightly stayed away from the techie penis size comparisons. However photographers were capable of helping each other out with problems. This is what models wanted. Someplace where they could help each other with advice. Well the advice they gave each other was often not only wrong but potentially detrimental, the same as often happened in the photography forum. Except that the models did not want to hear some male photographer correct them. And of course you would have the typical asshats that would always chime in and mansplain. Someone would want to find out models perspectives on a subject, and models could barely get a word in edgewise. This irritated the hell out of a lot of people, not just models. And then many of the confrontational by nature models made it clear that photographers and especially males were not wanted, even if they happened to have the answers to a question about modeling.

Now the female models have their own little echo chamber where they can tell each other that they deserve $100 per hour with no experience or abilities. Then they can complain about being ignored and then leave. This forum is the only place I have seen where models discussed how they would like to be treated. But discuss does NOT mean that everybody is going to agree with you. Some people may actually have a different point of view. And of course for many a different point of view means having to run back to your safe space. (this is becoming a social trend, so not just here)  So, information deprivation is becoming the norm.

And yes, a major part of this whole problem has been several asshat 'know it all' photographers. But please note that female models were never major participants of the forums, except for a few, and those few were well worth listening to.

Damn   Herman you pretty much summed up what this inarticulate knuckledragging mouth breathing troglodyte has been thinking.

JordanK wrote:
So this is what MM has become. I haven't been around long, but have been told of what a magical place it once was. Now it's nothing more than snarky models and fighting photographers. What a shame.

yeah  pretty much so... almost all the photographers have naked women in their ports   so thats the first thing they check to see if they will jump on you or not...

JordanK wrote:
So this is what MM has become. I haven't been around long, but have been told of what a magical place it once was. Now it's nothing more than snarky models and fighting photographers

You have it backwards.

Black Z Eddie wrote:

You have it backwards.

Not from what I've seen. I will add that a lot of photographers are also snarky.

JordanK wrote:

Not from what I've seen. I will add that a lot of photographers are also snarky.

a lot of photographers get bullied too Jordan