Photographer

WB Photography

Posts: 22

San Antonio, Texas, US

So I did a shoot about 5 months ago and the model brought her boyfriend and I ended up having to stop the shoot after 20 mins because he kept telling her how to pose and throwing different clothing for her to try on while I was shooting and live streaming it at the same time. Fast forward to yesterday I asked a model about doing a shoot and I thought I was negotiating the details with her when in reality I was talking to her boyfriend. When I found out it was him I was talking to I told him that I cannot make the deal with him that it has to be her. And because of his willingness to take over her shoot I told him that it was a closed shoot to boyfriends or husbands. She could bring a female friend or a female escort. I told him that if he was worried that I’m some creeper that I welcome him to contact models I’ve worked with in the past to learn about me. Am I wrong for this?

Mar 30 21 06:59 am Link

Photographer

Aberotica

Posts: 491

Aberdeen, Scotland, United Kingdom

In a word - No!!

Mar 30 21 08:45 am Link

Photographer

John Jebbia

Posts: 28539

Phoenix, Arizona, US

I once had a model tell me that she refuses to take any photographer with an Escort seriously. She said that real professionals show up with a Mustang or an F150.

Mar 30 21 09:02 am Link

Photographer

WB Photography

Posts: 22

San Antonio, Texas, US

John Jebbia  wrote:
I once had a model tell me that she refuses to take any photographer with an Escort seriously. She said that real professionals show up with a Mustang or an F150.

Well this model told me to Focus.

Mar 30 21 07:03 pm Link

Photographer

Brooklyn Bridge Images

Posts: 13099

Brooklyn, New York, US

End all contact with this model and her BF !!! Dont even consider working with people who engage in this kind of deception.

Mar 30 21 09:12 pm Link

Artist/Painter

Hunter GWPB

Posts: 6562

King of Prussia, Pennsylvania, US

The conversations you have with another person regarding a shoot and the expectations involved in the shoot are part of a contractual agreement.  You can't have a clean contract with someone that is not part of the discussion unless it is clear that a third person is authorized to make decisions that are binding on those they represent.  Any discussion with a third person that is not disclosed upfront is a person that is not dealing honestly or in good faith.  If it is an MM profile, they are in violation of site rules pertaining to allowing anyone else to log in to their profile and it is within your discretion to report them.   

An excerpt from the site rules:

"We do not tolerate dishonest account ownership or dishonest account maintenance. The following behaviors are included in dishonest account ownership, but are not limited to:

Creating an account for someone else
Allowing anyone but the person whose work or face is represented to login or access an account
This includes assistants, managers, or agents
Exceptions spouses and/or life-partners who work as a photography team and identical twins with model profiles.
Pretending to be someone else and/or maintaining a fake profile"

Mar 30 21 10:08 pm Link

Photographer

Aaron Pawlak

Posts: 2850

New York, New York, US

WB Photography wrote:
Fast forward to yesterday I asked a model about doing a shoot and I thought I was negotiating the details with her when in reality I was talking to her boyfriend.

"Boyfriend".

Mar 30 21 11:48 pm Link

Photographer

Camera Buff

Posts: 853

Maryborough, Queensland, Australia

WB Photography wrote:
Snippet ... And because of his willingness to take over her shoot I told him that it was a closed shoot to boyfriends or husbands. She could bring a female friend or a female escort. I told him that if he was worried that I’m some creeper that I welcome him to contact models I’ve worked with in the past to learn about me. Am I wrong for this?

Your 'About Me' currently states ...
"I don't mind and I encourage you bring an escort to our shoot and every shoot you go on with any photographer."

Perhaps you should consider editing your 'About Me' to say ... "I don't mind and I encourage you to bring a female escort to our shoot."

Mar 31 21 08:21 am Link

Photographer

Jason McKendricks

Posts: 6014

Chico, California, US

So far we only have photographers and one painter commenting in this thread so I am largely preaching to the choir here. I don't really have any interest in accommodating escorts during shoots. In most cases there are plenty of other models to work with who don't need escorts.

Apr 05 21 07:48 am Link

Photographer

Mark Salo

Posts: 11194

Olney, Maryland, US

WB Photography wrote:
. . .

Camera Buff wrote:
Your 'About Me' currently states ...
"I don't mind and I encourage you bring an escort to our shoot and every shoot you go on with any photographer."

Perhaps you should consider editing your 'About Me' to say ... "I don't mind and I encourage you to bring a female escort to our shoot."

How about: I prefer no escorts but I encourage you bring an escort to every shoot you go on with any other photographer.

Apr 05 21 09:12 am Link

Photographer

Camera Buff

Posts: 853

Maryborough, Queensland, Australia

Mark Salo wrote:
How about: I prefer no escorts but I encourage you bring an escort to every shoot you go on with any other photographer.

I respect that the OP can encourage models to bring an escort to his own shoots, if that is what he prefers. But I thought it prudent to leave out the part where he encourages models to take an escort to every shoot they go on with any photographer.

Apr 05 21 10:36 am Link

Model

Shura

Posts: 1108

Jefferson City, Missouri, US

I am all for using escorts and I have on multiple occasions brought one to a first shoot. However, under these circumstances, I would ask her to bring someone else. It he was negotiating on her behalf, he would be much more likely to take over and interfere with the shoot. I would potentially ask that she brings someone else, not necessarily a female escort though, but just someone else.

Apr 05 21 06:47 pm Link

Photographer

pbdimages

Posts: 22

Woodland Hills, California, US

Aaron Pawlak wrote:

"Boyfriend".

+1

Apr 05 21 07:02 pm Link

Photographer

Loki Studio

Posts: 3523

Royal Oak, Michigan, US

You are not alone in that sometimes extra unexperienced people can ruin the shoot.  This is yet another reason to work with experienced models, MUAs, and pro studios.   It is reasonable for you to set rules for a shoot that avoid failures, and to run your sets without interference.  Just be clear up front.  Amateurs often have unusual expectations about how real photo shoots work, and you need to be firm about the process to get successful results.  That said, a non-home location with a female MUA will generally create a safer impression to less experienced models and render escort arguments mute.   

I don't have a specific policy on escorts, but I do know that talent that cannot travel and work independently won't be booked for commercial work.

Apr 05 21 07:26 pm Link

Photographer

John Silva Photography

Posts: 496

Fairfield, California, US

Escorts...., AGAIN!?!?
John

Apr 08 21 12:10 am Link

Photographer

Gold Rush Studio

Posts: 328

Sacramento, California, US

Myself, I'm fine with escorts under the condition that there's no camera/phone present and that the escort minds their own business during the shoot.

It's always hard to get a model to relax and if she feels better with a friend present then so be it.

Apr 08 21 02:38 pm Link

Photographer

Francisco Castro

Posts: 2577

Cincinnati, Ohio, US

I don't care who a model brings to a shoot. However, and I make this known in no uncertain terms, they can watch, but they can't be heard from. There shall be no interruptions or back seat shooting from the cheap seats. When they do, the shoot is over whether we've shot 5 frames or 500 frames. I say it with tact and grace, but it's clear that I am serious.

In 10 years, I have only had to prematurely end a shoot twice.

Apr 08 21 05:12 pm Link

Photographer

Green Wave Photo 312

Posts: 92

Chicago, Illinois, US

Lol @ the eternal escort threads on here

Jun 06 21 12:57 pm Link

Photographer

FIFTYONE PHOTOGRAPHY

Posts: 6541

Uniontown, Pennsylvania, US

Brooklyn Bridge Images wrote:
End all contact with this model and her BF !!! Dont even consider working with people who engage in this kind of deception.

... and here lays the problem.

There is really no way of telling who You are communicating with when messaging a profile on the interwebs.

I've had the same happen, a Model who I was working with would hand the phone to sluggo the bf who would carry the conversation.

Jun 06 21 04:55 pm Link

Photographer

Dead Eye Photo

Posts: 15

Goodyear, Arizona, US

No escorts.  I had a model show up with two other people.  One rather large male and a woman.  One I would consider.  No way two.  I told them this was not a show and that they could wait right outside.  He was not happy but agreed.  Part of the shoot was going to be light painting.  When I turned off the lights, he went ballistic.  Started pounding on the door and yelling. 'It's over!  It's over!'  I turned on the lights and let them in.  I thought he was going to hit me.  What did the model do?  Grinned and laughed.  She got a charge out of him freaking out.  I had never thought twice about escorts before that.  If you don't want them there, state it.  If they demand it, move on and be patient.  Especially if you are paying.

Jun 10 21 03:21 am Link

Photographer

Jason McKendricks

Posts: 6014

Chico, California, US

FIFTYONE PHOTOGRAPHY wrote:

... and here lays the problem.

There is really no way of telling who You are communicating with when messaging a profile on the interwebs.

I've had the same happen, a Model who I was working with would hand the phone to sluggo the bf who would carry the conversation.

Well, if the model is a member of Model Mayhem she is expected to represent herself. The moment she hands the phone to a sluggo is when you should hang up.

When possible I prefer to meet the model's before the shoot to go over details and paperwork. That is not always possible though, especially with traveling models. In those cases I recommend working with models who have enough references who can talk about their experiences.

Jun 13 21 08:44 am Link

Photographer

Curt at photoworks

Posts: 31805

Riverside, California, US

Gold Rush Studio wrote:
... It's always hard to get a model to relax ...

perhaps some reflection is in order

Jun 30 21 12:49 am Link

Photographer

Curt at photoworks

Posts: 31805

Riverside, California, US

Francisco Castro wrote:
I don't care who a model brings to a shoot...

Wow, really?

Jun 30 21 12:51 am Link

Photographer

FFantastique

Posts: 2516

Orlando, Florida, US

NO!

Jun 30 21 01:00 am Link

Photographer

PhotoMike

Posts: 14

Gurnee, Illinois, US

WB Photography wrote:
So I did a shoot about 5 months ago and the model brought her boyfriend and I ended up having to stop the shoot after 20 mins because he kept telling her how to pose and throwing different clothing for her to try on while I was shooting and live streaming it at the same time. Fast forward to yesterday I asked a model about doing a shoot and I thought I was negotiating the details with her when in reality I was talking to her boyfriend. When I found out it was him I was talking to I told him that I cannot make the deal with him that it has to be her. And because of his willingness to take over her shoot I told him that it was a closed shoot to boyfriends or husbands. She could bring a female friend or a female escort. I told him that if he was worried that I’m some creeper that I welcome him to contact models I’ve worked with in the past to learn about me. Am I wrong for this?

It is not just boyfriends or husbands that tell the model what to do.  I have had girlffirends of the model, muas, and shoot organizer tell the model how to pose or give props, chairs, etc.

Sep 03 21 01:19 pm Link

Model

Michelle Genevieve

Posts: 1137

Gaithersburg, Maryland, US

Aaron Pawlak wrote:

"Boyfriend".

"Boyfriend" = "sluggo"

Sep 03 21 04:52 pm Link

Photographer

Abbitt Photography

Posts: 13503

Washington, Utah, US

I don’t have an absolute rule against escorts, but I typically decline shoots involving escorts for the following reasons:

1.   It adds another person the shoot is dependent on to happen.  Escorts are less vested than the model, so shoots are more likely to get canceled because the escort canceled. 

2.    An escort is not a part of the shoot team, so typically adds nothing of value, only negatives.  In addition to point 1, escorts take up space, talk, get on their cell phones, have the potential to roam around and disrupt or steel things.  Since they are observers, not part of the shoot team this may being in additional liability and/or insurance concerns.  (I do think there are some situations an escort brings value such as acting as a look out on outdoor nude shoots, but overall they are a negative). 

3.  Escorts often don’t approve of what the model is doing and are there for her protection, often creating a very negative shooting environment. 

4.   A model is an independent contractor.  (Most here are anyways) Independent contractors typically don’t bring friends along to their job.   If a model or any other independent contractor feels I am a threat they need protection from, the answer isn’t an escort, we simply shouldn’t be working together.

5.   Most models don’t bring escorts, so why deal with all the above issues when it’s relatively easy to just choose one of the many models who don’t bring escorts.

Sep 03 21 09:09 pm Link

Photographer

Francisco Castro

Posts: 2577

Cincinnati, Ohio, US

Francisco Castro wrote:
I don't care who a model brings to a shoot..

Curt at photoworks wrote:
Wow, really?

No, but you are forgot to post the next part, which is very important.

Francisco Castro wrote:
However, and I make this known in no uncertain terms, they can watch, but they can't be heard from. There shall be no interruptions or back seat shooting from the cheap seats.

To me, that's really the crux of the escort/no escort debate; "Will the escort interfere with the work?". If they sit in a corner just converting oxygen to carbon dioxide, and not much else, then I'll forget they're even there.

Sep 28 21 11:05 pm Link

Photographer

Patrick Walberg

Posts: 44636

Salinas, California, US

We've probably had thousands of "escort" threads over the past years on the MM forums here.  It's always a topic that fires up people!  Since I've been shooting for about 40 years, I've learned to navigate this issue of "escorts" my way.  In most cases as photographers, we are also the directors of the shoot!  (Well .. that is unless we are being paid big money to deal with someone else on the set doing the directing.)  I don't call them "escorts" but invited guests that we mutually discuss what the purpose is for guest(s) and we both have approved of in advance.   Communication is key!

Sometimes a model needs help with transportation.  Sometimes a model may want an assistant.  Sometimes I may want an assistant. There are many things that I can think of besides security for models (and photographers) ...that those invited can do to help the shoot.  If the "guest" is not there for any purpose but to watch as a spectator, then both the model and the photographer should be getting paid by that spectator.  Yes!  Charge a fee for seats at your shoot!  I have doone so where the model and I have split it. Some other models and photographers might wish to learn how we work!  They need to pay for it!

One time where a models boyfriend was invited (he was someone I knew through the music business) and he started to get involved early on in the shoot in attempting to direct over my shoulder, in making comments.  Before I could do or say anything, the second model on the set with her then told him to "Shut The f^*k UP!" and to sit in the corner .. "be just like the chair you're sitting in .. no noise!"  I was thrilled that she did that!  Other than that, I will normally direct shoots where I am paying, or if it is a shoot for trade .. but those shoots where I am paid, I am more tolerant of having someone else in the directors chair.

As for communication using messenger with someone on here or texting, I do not consider a shoot booked until I have spoken with the people involved either on the phone or in person. I use multiple methods of communication to make sure that I am talking with the very person doing the negotiations.  I even had a deaf model who understood my rule of at least one phone call, and she had an operator assisted for the deaf or TTY so that she could fulfill my requirement. I grew up with film, and before all this digital technology gave us so many more choices for communication!   Before all that, we talked!

Because of my methods of giving direction and communication, I have very few models flake on me, and very few issues with the people at the photo shoots.  I have a great deal of experience working in theater, dance and music which has enabled me to do better at directing people to be photographed.  However, it is a skill to give just enough direction that it feels spontaneous.

Sep 29 21 02:26 pm Link

Photographer

Patrick Walberg

Posts: 44636

Salinas, California, US

Jason McKendricks wrote:

Well, if the model is a member of Model Mayhem she is expected to represent herself. The moment she hands the phone to a sluggo is when you should hang up.

When possible I prefer to meet the model's before the shoot to go over details and paperwork. That is not always possible though, especially with traveling models. In those cases I recommend working with models who have enough references who can talk about their experiences.

THIS!  I don't negotiate with terrorists!  Umm .. I mean sluggos or wanna be managers!

Sep 29 21 02:28 pm Link

Photographer

Patrick Walberg

Posts: 44636

Salinas, California, US

EZRider wrote:

It is not just boyfriends or husbands that tell the model what to do.  I have had girlffirends of the model, muas, and shoot organizer tell the model how to pose or give props, chairs, etc.

Are they paying for the shoot?  - laughs!  - If not, then don't let them direct the shoot.

Sep 29 21 02:29 pm Link

Photographer

Patrick Walberg

Posts: 44636

Salinas, California, US

Francisco Castro wrote:
I don't care who a model brings to a shoot. However, and I make this known in no uncertain terms, they can watch, but they can't be heard from. There shall be no interruptions or back seat shooting from the cheap seats. When they do, the shoot is over whether we've shot 5 frames or 500 frames. I say it with tact and grace, but it's clear that I am serious.

In 10 years, I have only had to prematurely end a shoot twice.

I like your method.  Guests and spectators must be discussed in advance.  If I am shooting with a model for the first time, I will make extra effort to make her comfortable.  On the flip side, I have set up booths at events such as car shows, and I will have extra people there as for security for the models. When shooting out in public locations, I like to have someone there as a security person for both the model and myself. When shooting nudes of a model, I do like to have a female assistant who can step in to make adjustments.  There are good reasons for having extra people at shoots.  Again, it's all about communication. 

If someone becomes disruptive, or does not follow through with what they are supposed to do, then they either leave or the shoot is over.  Recently I had something happen that has never happened before with a model.  It was an incident shortly after we shot. It is important enough that I will make a separate post about it soon!

Sep 29 21 02:40 pm Link

Photographer

PhotoMike

Posts: 14

Gurnee, Illinois, US

Oct 04 21 11:13 am Link

Photographer

Patrick Walberg

Posts: 44636

Salinas, California, US

EZRider wrote:

What was that?

Oct 04 21 12:28 pm Link

Photographer

Shot By Adam

Posts: 8001

Las Vegas, Nevada, US

I can assure you also, it's just a matter of time until an "escort" ruins your shoot. It's not "if", it's "when" it happens, and it will happen. I'm speaking from experience here too and for years I personally had a very open policy to "escorts" until I saw the light one day and realized just how stupid I was for years to allow them.

These are just some of the reasons I do not allow "escorts" on my shoots anymore:

- Escorts make shitty sandbags - Escorts need a lot more instruction on holding a reflector than a C-Stand does.
- Escorts distract the model in more ways than can be counted.
- Escorts need babysitting.
- Escorts frequently cause shoots to end too soon because they are bored.
- Escorts get jealous and have been known to cause fights on the shoot.
- Escorts cause models to be late.
- Escorts cause models to flake altogether.
- Escorts interrupt the creative process of a shoot.
- Escorts steal equipment.
- Escorts frequently have no clue about anything that takes place on a shoot but always want to input ideas or give uneducated "suggestions" as if they know what the hell they are talking about. Oh yeah, and explain to your insurance company how you have to replace damaged or stolen piece of equipment because the model's jealous boyfriend was on set and stole it or broke it. Yeah, see how well that goes over.

Oct 09 21 07:56 am Link

Artist/Painter

aquarelle

Posts: 2035

Chicago, Illinois, US

Only female escorts are allowed in my studio.  There’s always the chance the model will persuade her friend to join her on the posing stand. 

So far I’m batting about 40%.  The results of one of those sessions is in my port.

Oct 20 21 01:02 pm Link

Photographer

Teila K Day Photography

Posts: 2017

Panama City Beach, Florida, US

WB Photography wrote:
... I told him that if he was worried that I’m some creeper that I welcome him to contact models I’ve worked with in the past to learn about me. Am I wrong for this?

To the point.  This isn't elementary school, so don't treat photography/modeling as if you're in 3rd grade by having a conversation with the escort of this sort.  If he's worried- that's his business.  You're not contracting time with him, you're contracting time with the model.  If she doesn't feel comfy without a baby-sitter, then either bend to her level of comfort or kindly tell her that you don't entertain escorts.

Whatever parameters you have for shooting is "OK" because it's your shoot, your business and or your preference.  Whatever anyone else thinks isn't of any consequence assuming that you're being reasonable.  It's reasonable not to allow escorts at all (my shop does not, and has never); doesn't matter who we have shooting the model.

   Models will walk across a dark Walmart parking lot without an escort at the drop of a hat - but all of the sudden, need an escort to a photoshoot.  Irrespective of their reasons - it doesn't concern me and my business dealings.  Either a person meets my criteria or they don't.  Likewise, I think many photographers need to get back to the basics of running a business or at the very least having a spine, and stop entertaining the ridiculous.     If it doesn't affect you/your bottom line not to allow 'escorts', then do yourself a favor and save yourself the hassle if it's a problem to how you conduct your work, how the models interact with you, or how you deal with people.   Your obligation is to yourself and your business.

Oct 22 21 07:27 pm Link

Photographer

Jefferson Cole

Posts: 87

Prague, Prague, Czech Republic

Escorts have never been a problem in my work, as I only shoot grown ups.

Oct 23 21 05:43 am Link

Photographer

DTP - Photography

Posts: 54

Chesapeake, Virginia, US

I did correspond with someone here and I told her Escorts were fine and I think she misunderstood thinking that I thought she was an escort, and she could have very well been. We did not shoot.

Oct 24 21 10:16 am Link

Photographer

Jay2G Photography

Posts: 2562

Highland, Michigan, US

I don't think you are wrong at all. However, if this guy is so controlling that he is leading you to believe he is the model....... I doubt she will be allowed to shoot without him there. So I'd part way's with both of them.
     I worked with a model years ago that brought her boyfriend. He was good until the end and then they ended up getting in a huge fight, shoot ended early.  It was a mess.

Oct 25 21 04:34 am Link