Anna Adrielle wrote:
you know, I was just thinking today that this modeling forum could really use a photographer starting a thread on what models should and shouldn't do, because those really don't happen enough. Thank you for this valuable contribution

This.

howard r wrote:
your portfolio is like your resume and ad campaign rolled up into one. it shows the world what you're capable of, it proves your level of commitment, and it establishes what level of photographers have chosen to work with you.

i know there are many models on this site who feel that they've paid their dues after a dozen or so shoots - but demanding "paid work only" when you have a weak, unfinished (or even dated) portfolio is counter productive. it's like launching your product (the product being "you") with a second-rate ad campaign because you resent the idea that you should have to go to the trouble of putting together a first-rate campaign.

the biggest problem with that way of thinking? some of your competitors are going to the trouble.

just my two cents . . .

No really, not every girl on the site is clamouring to compete for the highest end work, well the smart ones generally aren't anyway.

Most internet models with have limited options and a short shelf life, spending time readying yourself with a 'first-rate' book would just be a waste of time, and a lot of the good stuff comes later as you become more established.

Also, what Anna said.

howard r wrote:
just my two cents . . .

That much?

BeautyAndTheEast wrote:
I can think of better ways to coach, develop, encourage and motivate people than implying they failed and someone else is doing a better job. I don't even agree with the OP, I don't expect indie models to provide agency standard ports, if they've not been developed by an agency, I look for potential not perfection. There are some ports here which are far more interesting and aesthetic than agency ports. I think the OP missed the point too, that ports should really flow and tell a story, it's their story.

I imagine a model posting in photography talk: "most of you fashion guys, can't do fashion, your ports fail, there are much better fashion togs elsewhere".

"size of your lens is not important but quality is, most of you are amateurs"

you do understand that i literally didn't say or imply ANY of the things you said that i said, yes?

i never said that a portfolio had to be an agency style portfolio, nor did i say the flow of a portfolio was irrelevant, nor did i imply that anyone had failed.

i simply said that models shouldn't settle for having a second rate portfolio because their competitors are working their asses off to create first rate portfolios.

glad we had a chance to clear that up.

philip painter wrote:
I call tomorrow's thread.

Why bother waiting?

Nobody else does.

Anna Adrielle wrote:
you know, I was just thinking today that this modeling forum could really use a photographer starting a thread on what models should and shouldn't do, because those really don't happen enough. Thank you for this valuable contribution

look anna - i get that mocking people is a bloodsport in these forums. i know it's just a matter of time before some smug-ass loser gets a hard-on being the first one to post the knight cartoon (wow - original and clever!).

i knew all this before i posted but i posted in spite of that. i posted because every day i see interesting models with mediocre portfolios which completely undersell their potential talent, and yet they they say "paid only".

i think that's trap they fall in because they don't want to be "exploited" by working for free, but in the end, it only hurts them.

you have a strong portfolio (you're welcome) so obviously my advice doesn't apply to you. it was never intended for you. but a new model reading this might be inspired to take their portfolio a little more seriously, and that would be a good thing. not for me, not for you, but for them.

so maybe next time you can cool it with the sarcasm . . . or not.

cheers,

howard

Good Egg Productions wrote:

Why bother waiting?

Nobody else does.

I'm patient; I can wait. Besides, I don't want my golden advice to fall by the wayside to today's thread.

howard r wrote:
look anna - i get that mocking people is a bloodsport in these forums. i know it's just a matter of time before some smug-ass loser gets a hard-on being the first one to post the knight cartoon (wow - original and clever!).

i knew all this before i posted but i posted in spite of that. i posted because every day i see interesting models with mediocre portfolios which completely undersell their potential talent, and yet they they say "paid only".

i think that's trap they fall in because they don't want to be "exploited" by working for free, but in the end, it only hurts them.

you have a strong portfolio (you're welcome) so obviously my advice doesn't apply to you. it was never intended for you. but a new model reading this might be inspired to take their portfolio a little more seriously, and that would be a good thing. not for me, not for you, but for them.

so maybe next time you can cool it with the sarcasm . . . or not.

cheers,

howard

let me ask you this:

how many times do you think a photographer starts a thread like this in this forum?

how many times do you think it actually made a difference?

how many of the models that don't give a flying fuck to begin with are all of a sudden going to see the light and change their behavior because of your post?

do you not think that a problem like this fixes itself, since they'll either get paid what they want to be paid, despite of their "crappy" portfolio, or no one will pay them what they're asking and then they'll either re-adjust their attitude or go away quitly?

how many of the "serious" models that visit this forum frequently are fed up with having to deal with this "advice" in the modeling forum over and over again?

How do you think photographers would feel if models frequently contributed to the photography forum, telling them how they should lead their businesses?

and finally:

in what way do you think your post is different from the other posts we get here (on a weekly basis), telling us the same thing, not having any effect whatsoever?


I consider myself to be a patient and kind person, most of the time. But after seeing like 50 of these threads, I'm kind of fed up with it.
cheers,

Anna

let me ask you this:

how many times do you think a photographer starts a thread like this in this forum?

how many times do you think it actually made a difference?

how many of the models that don't give a flying fuck to begin with are all of a sudden going to see the light and change their behavior because of your post?

do you not think that a problem like this fixes itself, since they'll either get paid what they want to be paid, despite of their "crappy" portfolio, or no one will pay them what they're asking and then they'll either re-adjust their attitude or go away quitly?

how many of the "serious" models that visit this forum frequently are fed up with having to deal with this "advice" in the modeling forum over and over again?

How do you think photographers would feel if models frequently contributed to the photography forum, telling them how they should lead their businesses?

and finally:

in what way do you think your post is different from the other posts we get here (on a weekly basis), telling us the same thing, not having any effect whatsoever?


I consider myself to be a patient and kind person, most of the time. But after seeing like 50 of these threads, I'm kind of fed up with it.

cheers,

Anna

sorry anna - but i don't follow these threads often. i didn't realize that my suggestion was a common one. i didn't mean to offend you or anyone else for that matter. that's why i added "just my two cents" - so people would know it was only my personal opinion.

but it's nice to hear that you are kind and patient

S W I N S K E Y wrote:
to the OP: you do realize where you are right?

MM has proven time and time again, that a real world working paradigm, is not what is wanted here.

while i certainly recognize some of the exceptional talent and professionalism, a few of the people here possess, the site is predominantly amateur.

The MM culture has no interest in how the real world works or in understanding the criteria to exist in that real world...

on MM everyone gets to be a model and photographer.

its a playground...

bringing any other philosophy to this arena, is a lesson in futility and frustration....

enjoy the place for what it is... a playground...

+1

I agree with this.

In my experience and observations, there's no doubt that well over 90% of the models on this site look for excuses NOT to do photoshoots. Nothing you can do about that except to find the 3-5% that do look for excuses to do shoots. Cherish them as much as possible by doing multiple shoots with them.

howard r wrote:

let me ask you this:

how many times do you think a photographer starts a thread like this in this forum?

how many times do you think it actually made a difference?

how many of the models that don't give a flying fuck to begin with are all of a sudden going to see the light and change their behavior because of your post?

do you not think that a problem like this fixes itself, since they'll either get paid what they want to be paid, despite of their "crappy" portfolio, or no one will pay them what they're asking and then they'll either re-adjust their attitude or go away quitly?

how many of the "serious" models that visit this forum frequently are fed up with having to deal with this "advice" in the modeling forum over and over again?

How do you think photographers would feel if models frequently contributed to the photography forum, telling them how they should lead their businesses?

and finally:

in what way do you think your post is different from the other posts we get here (on a weekly basis), telling us the same thing, not having any effect whatsoever?


I consider myself to be a patient and kind person, most of the time. But after seeing like 50 of these threads, I'm kind of fed up with it.

cheers,

Anna

sorry anna - but i don't follow these threads often. i didn't realize that my suggestion was a common one. i didn't mean to offend you or anyone else for that matter. that's why i added "just my two cents" - so people would know it was only my personal opinion.

but it's nice to hear that you are kind and patient

I was actually being serious. I am totally aware that my post sounded arrogant and snooty... but if you are in this forum regularly, you see posts like this all the time. I'm not even exaggerating. I'm sure the other models that replied so far feel the same way. threads like this never end well, because quite frankly it's considered quite rude to walk into the modelforum and start telling us what we're doing wrong. and you caught me at a really bad day . better luck next time!

Anna Adrielle wrote:
you know, I was just thinking today that this modeling forum could really use a photographer starting a thread on what models should and shouldn't do, because those really don't happen enough. Thank you for this valuable contribution

^You made my day

Thanks Mr. Photographer guy, but I'm sure those you're talking really don't give a flying rat's ass what you say. If they did, there would be no need for this thread

howard r wrote:
your portfolio is like your resume and ad campaign rolled up into one. it shows the world what you're capable of, it proves your level of commitment, and it establishes what level of photographers have chosen to work with you.

i know there are many models on this site who feel that they've paid their dues after a dozen or so shoots - but demanding "paid work only" when you have a weak, unfinished (or even dated) portfolio is counter productive. it's like launching your product (the product being "you") with a second-rate ad campaign because you resent the idea that you should have to go to the trouble of putting together a first-rate campaign.

the biggest problem with that way of thinking? some of your competitors are going to the trouble.

just my two cents . . .

I believe many will beg to differ.

Anna Adrielle wrote:
you know, I was just thinking today that this modeling forum could really use a photographer starting a thread on what models should and shouldn't do, because those really don't happen enough. Thank you for this valuable contribution

+1

Anna Adrielle wrote:

let me ask you this:

how many times do you think a photographer starts a thread like this in this forum?

how many times do you think it actually made a difference?

how many of the models that don't give a flying fuck to begin with are all of a sudden going to see the light and change their behavior because of your post?

do you not think that a problem like this fixes itself, since they'll either get paid what they want to be paid, despite of their "crappy" portfolio, or no one will pay them what they're asking and then they'll either re-adjust their attitude or go away quitly?

how many of the "serious" models that visit this forum frequently are fed up with having to deal with this "advice" in the modeling forum over and over again?

How do you think photographers would feel if models frequently contributed to the photography forum, telling them how they should lead their businesses?

and finally:

in what way do you think your post is different from the other posts we get here (on a weekly basis), telling us the same thing, not having any effect whatsoever?


I consider myself to be a patient and kind person, most of the time. But after seeing like 50 of these threads, I'm kind of fed up with it.

cheers,

Anna

+1,000 anna you angel!

IDiivil wrote:
While the advice is sound, the motivation of each model involved on this website is not being factored in. A lot of girls on MM, marked "Paid Only" or not, are not always trying to make modeling a career, and they might not even really care for it as a hobby. Sometimes, it truly is viewed as "just easy income" for the occasional shoot... sometimes, it truly is just viewed as something one does for fun without much care for the results.

Models' motivations don't always make sense, but at the end of the day, a photographer looking to get the most out of their shoot should focus on the professionals and on those of us who do make modeling a priority in some way (either through the creation of beautiful art, the pursuing of an actual career, or otherwise).

I hope that makes sense.

i think that what i'm saying applies to ANY model - professional, amateur, mainstream, alternative - it doesn't matter. that's why i think the criticism of my post is completely misguided (and that's putting it very diplomatically - lol).

i'm not telling models what they should be. i couldn't care less. i'm saying whatever they want to be, if they are on this site - then BY DEFINITION they want some kind of customers (paid, artistic, whatever. again, it doesn't matter) - and it still all comes down to basic marketing:

there are consumers they want to reach, and their portfolio is THE vehicle to reach them.

that's ALL that i'm saying. how the hell people can turn that into an insult to models is beyond me (and i'm NOT including you in this group).

and btw, christine, you of all people should know what i am saying is 100% true. you have worked your ass off to create a exquisite portfolio that demands to be taken seriously. there are tens of thousands of models on this site and you have created a brilliant ad campaign that makes you stand out from the crowd. it brings customers to your door.

to me, you're a real success story and you did it on your terms 

howard r wrote:
i think that what i'm saying applies to ANY model - professional, amateur, mainstream, alternative - it doesn't matter. that's why i think the criticism of my post is completely misguided (and that's putting it very diplomatically - lol).

i'm not telling models what they should be. i couldn't care less. i'm saying whatever they want to be, if they are on this site - then BY DEFINITION they want some kind of customers (paid, artistic, whatever. again, it doesn't matter) - and it still all comes down to basic marketing:

there are consumers they want to reach, and their portfolio is THE vehicle to reach them.

that's ALL that i'm saying. how the hell people can turn that into an insult to models is beyond me (and i'm NOT including you in this group).

and btw, christine, you of all people should know what i am saying is 100% true. you have worked your ass off to create a exquisite portfolio that demands to be taken seriously. there are tens of thousands of models on this site and you have created a brilliant ad campaign that makes you stand out from the crowd. it brings customers to your door.

to me, you're a real success story and you did it on your terms 

Thank you, Howard. Please don't misunderstand - I totally get what you're saying and know you mean it with good intent.

Here's the problem...

You're saying that people who register on here, regardless of their intent, should be building a strong portfolio. This is an understandable outlook, but the problem comes in at the point that you assume, by registering, people are serious enough to care.

The fact of the matter is, not everyone cares. Regardless of the effort they take to register, it's the effort that is required after the initial registration that the model/photographer/etc is unwilling to follow up on.

So what is their purpose of being on MM/registering in the first place?
- Chasing the dream of fame and realizing it isn't so easy, so they give up.
- Registering on MM for the community/forums/messages/chat ... which, while not MM's whole intention, can be proved with how many profiles get kicked out for initiating "let's date" messages or otherwise.
- Doing the actual model photography industry thing, but too lazy to update their portfolio
- Not having enough time to really follow up on the hobby
- Not finding MM that particularly important as a showcase for portfolios and thus ignoring it
etc etc etc...

I could go on forever with theories.

But heck, look at all the profiles that have been left alone for years without the individual logging into it. They aren't even motivated to delete the dang thing. If there are people that feel that way, then clearly, there will be others of similar apathetic tendencies  / lack of time / whatever.

Howard, if MM was a 100% committed, serious group of people in its entirety, then yes, what you say is sound advice and should be something everyone takes to heart... but while MM is a great tool that both professionals and serious hobbyists can use, it isn't some super strict agency ruleset website. You can be short, you can be tall, you can be thin, you can be fat, you can be experienced, you can be new, you can be active, you can be completely missing in action... so on and so forth.

In short, MM is too diverse to give advice like, "Everyone should have the best of the best portfolio."

Such a statement does not take into account all the various goals and intentions people have with their profile on this website.

Anna Adrielle wrote:
you know, I was just thinking today that this modeling forum could really use a photographer starting a thread on what models should and shouldn't do, because those really don't happen enough. Thank you for this valuable contribution

I lol'ed.

Time for popcorn.

howard r wrote:

look anna - i get that mocking people is a bloodsport in these forums. i know it's just a matter of time before some smug-ass loser gets a hard-on being the first one to post the knight cartoon (wow - original and clever!).

i knew all this before i posted but i posted in spite of that. i posted because every day i see interesting models with mediocre portfolios which completely undersell their potential talent, and yet they they say "paid only".

i think that's trap they fall in because they don't want to be "exploited" by working for free, but in the end, it only hurts them.

you have a strong portfolio (you're welcome) so obviously my advice doesn't apply to you. it was never intended for you. but a new model reading this might be inspired to take their portfolio a little more seriously, and that would be a good thing. not for me, not for you, but for them.

so maybe next time you can cool it with the sarcasm . . . or not.

cheers,

howard

O.O

Drew Smith Photography wrote:
Hmm, these 'telling the models what they should be doing in the Model Forum' posts don't seem to have the same quality as the golden age we experienced in the not too distant past.

I forget the photographer's name (his avi was a camera in the snow) but he'd pop up regularly with an OP with some title or other like:

'Models - don't get fake boobs' and 'Models - get a tan you're all too pale'.

*Sigh - the good old days.

Haha I remember that guy

Drew Smith Photography wrote:
Hmm, these 'telling the models what they should be doing in the Model Forum' posts don't seem to have the same quality as the golden age we experienced in the not too distant past.

I forget the photographer's name (his avi was a camera in the snow) but he'd pop up regularly with an OP with some title or other like:

'Models - don't get fake boobs' and 'Models - get a tan you're all too pale'.

*Sigh - the good old days.

I remember the camera-in-the-snow guy.  Didn't he tell models that their avatars were their shop windows and they must have decent head and shoulders photos as avatars?

howard r wrote:
look anna - i get that mocking people is a bloodsport in these forums. i know it's just a matter of time before some smug-ass loser gets a hard-on being the first one to post the knight cartoon (wow - original and clever!).

i knew all this before i posted but i posted in spite of that. i posted because every day i see interesting models with mediocre portfolios which completely undersell their potential talent, and yet they they say "paid only".

i think that's trap they fall in because they don't want to be "exploited" by working for free, but in the end, it only hurts them.

you have a strong portfolio (you're welcome) so obviously my advice doesn't apply to you. it was never intended for you. but a new model reading this might be inspired to take their portfolio a little more seriously, and that would be a good thing. not for me, not for you, but for them.

so maybe next time you can cool it with the sarcasm . . . or not.

cheers,

howard

What makes you think that the models with these "failing" portfolios are going to even come to the forums and see what you wrote? If they aren't spending the time to update their portfolios they aren't going to spend their time reading what you have to say.

Anna Adrielle wrote:
you know, I was just thinking today that this modeling forum could really use a photographer starting a thread on what models should and shouldn't do, because those really don't happen enough. Thank you for this valuable contribution

In theory, for models whose target market is photographers, a thoughtful commentary *could* be justified. 

Not that that's relevant in THIS case, but it's possible.

S W I N S K E Y wrote:
to the OP: you do realize where you are right?

MM has proven time and time again, that a real world working paradigm, is not what is wanted here.

while i certainly recognize some of the exceptional talent and professionalism, a few of the people here possess, the site is predominantly amateur.

The MM culture has no interest in how the real world works or in understanding the criteria to exist in that real world...

on MM everyone gets to be a model and photographer.

its a playground...

bringing any other philosophy to this arena, is a lesson in futility and frustration....

enjoy the place for what it is... a playground...

Wait, so "in the real working world" a model with "only a dozen or so shoots" would never dream of asking to be paid?

Drew Smith Photography wrote:
Hmm, these 'telling the llamas what they should be doing in the llama Forum' posts don't seem to have the same quality as the golden age we experienced in the not too distant past.

I forget the photographer's name (his avi was a camera in the snow) but he'd pop up regularly with an OP with some title or other like:

'Models - don't get fake boobs' and 'Models - get a tan you're all too pale'.

*Sigh - the good old days.

Kent Art Photography wrote:
I remember the camera-in-the-snow guy.  Didn't he tell llamas that their avatars were their shop windows and they must have decent head and shoulders photos as avatars?

Was that the same one who ranted against BW avatars?

Art of the nude wrote:
Was that the same one who ranted against BW avatars?

I can't remember.  There have been so many of them.

Art of the nude wrote:
In theory, for models whose target market is photographers, a thoughtful commentary *could* be justified.

But our target market is never *all* photographers. I get the impression generally that most forum rants are from photographers are from the sort of guys who don't hire models much anyway. Some of them seem to have barely shot at all in years instead just posting rants on to forums.

In the end rather than industry advice most of these sorts of posts are one photographer whining about how all models won't cater solely to his personal demands. Of course he will say that he spoke to a couple of his friends and they all agree so clearly that is what the market wants.

The fact that the models working in that market apparently don't understand this when someone who has never even attempted to model let alone successfully can clearly see it means, obviously, that models are beyond stupid, it can't possibly be the photographer who is wrong.

These posts also are almost always advising models not to charge/to charge less, a little self serving dontcha think? Some might think this "helpful" advice has ulterior motives, but some are cynical.

To summarise, telling us what you want *could* be relevant, but trying to dress that up as helpful advice (especially when that advice is pretty much always; charge less, wear less, give us more) representative of the entire market of photographers is dishonest and a load of old bollocks.