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I think the only point that may need clarification is that both the model and photographer do not need to bring something “equal” to the shoot. An experienced model could work with a beginning photographer and vice versa. Also a Photographer may want to shoot a very involved lighting and set and just need a pretty body to fill it. So there may be times when unequal contributors work together. However, not matter what, both parties need to get something out of the shoot that makes them glad they did it.

I’m not impressed w/ how this article.

Just to name a few reasons…its presentation is confusing to read, making comprehension difficult even for someone familiar with the subject matter; nor is it very concise (to many personal antcedotes that have little bearing on the subject at hand); it also assumes a good majority of the readership does what they do for the same exact reasons (to get paid).

Instead of focusing on one topic & explaining it well, the article expends the energy throwing 30 things against a brick wall in the hopes of getting one thing to stick.

Great article and addresses both sides of the fence. Well written.

I agree, that a beginning photographer can work with an established model. It’s who the photographer works for, and what the shoot is particularly for that is most important! If he lets say, works for MAXIM Magazine, a very well known established mens magazine, well she’s going to get ample exposure for that shoot, as well as pad up her portfolio no matter who he is! Also, I noticed a lot of established models on this site always have a comment about they will no longer do tfp because they should always get paid for the shoot. Well, I guess they haven’t met me, because any favor done for me (I’m actually an entertainment producer/fashion designer/agent – the one hiring the photographer) will result in a boost in ones portfolio. It’s the only reason why I work in this business, to get people started in the various areas of entertainment (film/tv/modeling/music/etc…). I hope they take your advice! Relaxing for a bit with the right people is enough to move on to better things! Ask model Jenna Bentley, who actually never heard of me, now she’s ready to do an album. All because I work with models, and she took an interest in finding out more about me. FATAL

Great article!!! Please email me a copy to Fil_Torres@netzero.net

I love you comment “Nude” Comment!!! LOL…

That is a Flawless rundown! Hope Everyone reads this. -JULIAN

PS. I don’t shoot nude either. Well, ONCE. But that’s another story.

how do we see your port!!?

Great article. This is exactly what I have tried to explain to people around me. I am doing my first shoot where I pay someone. I know that adding her to my portfolio will be well worth the price I am paying her. Once again, Thanks for such a well worded article.

-Jeff

I am in the unusual position of having switched from landscape and wildlife photography to shooting with models at a time when I had both time and money to spare. So for my first six months I regularly paid models to shoot with me. Not every choice was a good one but I did have the opportunity to work with some amazing models who taught me a great deal.

I have since moved somewhere with very few full time professional models and so most of my shoots are with beginning or even first time models. And I am really noticing the difference. As Reuben said the people willing to pay me are usually the shoots I gain the least from other than financially. More and more I am coming to believe that with models you often (not always) get what you pay for. Presumably the same holds true for photographers.

@Fatal: well not necessarily. I’ve turned down a lot of publication shots because I wasn’t interested in the photographers port. I’ve also declined a lot of paid work if the vibe isn’t right via email.

I think it’s good how this is clarifies that trade is good. I usually get frowned at by a few friends/photographers for doing it because I’m an erotic model and people who do what I do tend to earn big bucks. They are many incredible artists who I feel it’ll be rather insulting for me to ask for money from them.

Like they say, sometimes art is better than food.

Photographers shouldn’t pay models…the clients should.

Fantastic Article to explain why each service is provided and Used… More people need to read and understand this…. Kudos to the contributor(s) and/or writer(s).

Learning has taken place today, I am not at liberty to say what, but, nevertheless the cycle or pyramid of education has increased by one more. Thank you for paying it forward.

What a great article i totally agree too !
Do not just ask what this industry can do for you but what you can do for it !
We all start somewhere.
I do trade shoots too !
Tony M1 the new guy to MM

Commissioned and non-commissioned.

I have finally decided to do paid only shoots, but what happened? a sudden and stark decline in work…of course this would happen…in a world where photographers want to get paid as well…still though…I do some tfcd but only if I know I will be able to put the images in my portfolio…for the most part though..in my area of the usa that doesn’t come too often

I totally agree. What equals things out is what each person expects from the shoot. Both parties need to be content with what they are receiving whether that is trying out some new lighting or getting to shoot with a known photographer. Great point.

I’m sorry to hear that you feel that way.

Thanks Fred!

LOL, thanks! You will have to ask the editor for a copy of this article.

Hahahahaha! That was hilarious Julian! And thanks

http://www.modelmayhem.com/glamtography or
http://www.glamtography.com

Thanks!

Glad to hear you had a great transition experience. Good luck finding more experienced models! I’d tell you about a great site to find them but ….

cheers to that!

Thanks!

And thank you for the encouragement and kind words

Cheers!

Thanks for your input. Ironically, It is when I stopped looking for paid work only and just focused on writing tutorials (like these ones for ModelMayhem) and shooting things that were interesting to me (for trade) that paid work started finding me.

Good luck finding more paid work!

Great to hear your (non-photographer/non-model) comments and thoughts!

I think it’s important to mention that trade shoots are also paid shoots, it’s just that the pay is not cash. It’s wrong to assert that someone doing a trade shoot is working for free. – Wolfy4u

I think you overly confused yourself towards second half of writeup, sorry. You starting to talk about “free”, then it suddenly turns into paid/paying then suddenly its TFP and then suddenly its both and none.

Might consider writing a plan next time, before putting out article in the world.

Its very hard to follow point that goes into woods, spends seven days in wilderness, then rolls around and twists like snake back to where it all started from.

Great article and I also agree, some people are extremely anti-TF and others are not. I don’t really have a problem with either case.

One thing I will say is that if you are a photographer and you start charging, then yes you will see a drop in the amount of work you are doing. This can be a very good thing, giving you an opportunity to plan better shots, hunt rummage sales for old gear, study retouching techniques, find locations or do other things which will enhance your work a lot and take YOU to the next level instead of spending ALL your time on people who want stuff for free. You can be very, very busy if you just do “free” stuff all the time, so busy that the quality of your work will suffer.

If one is going to be a grammar & spelling Nazi as their SOLE basis for criticism, it helps their creditability if they actually use proper forms of words (two = to, comment’s = comments) in their retorts.

Being a complete amatuer tog, TF has certainly opened the door and allowed me in to this wonderful World. It has afforded me the opportunity to learn the basics without the pressure to perform. A lot of my previous works have been based on trial & error, and a degree of experimentation. TF has helped my confidence grow, and my network to expand. I am now at a stage where I am looking for more experienced models to help take my confidence & abilities to the next level.

At this stage it has not been about whether I should be charging or not, but whether i should pay or not!

Paying for more established models, one would assume that they can, and will bring more to the table; giving confidence levels a severe kick in the arse, and take a network to a whole new level. Bringing the possibilities of paid work to the fore.

Having said that however, one can’t deny the insurmountable benefits that can be found in TF work. Trial & error, along with experimentation are things that cannot be afforded when moneys are involved. the freedom that TF offers is, i’m sure a breath of fresh air to many “professional” photogs who, by design, have their creativity stifled by the client.

Ok, now this is how I do things and what I think about paid vs. TFP. I’ve been shooting for a lot of years now and I am a published photographer. I think photographers who are just starting out and want to come in with there [A] game really have to pay models in order to put together a really good portfolio. Now, you can do it with new models but the chances are not that good because new models have no experience at all or a least most of them anyway. So, in order to get to where you want to go you have to pay the best of the best. Now I’m not talking about someone who just likes taking there cloths off for money but someone who has a super strong portfolio and has really worked with some great image makers. Let me give you a few examples. A model like Kerri Taylor, Lee loo, V Nixie, Stephy C, Wendy Rider, Nikki Magnusson, Henna N, and so many more that I can’t name at this time can produce some powerful work that you will be proud to put on your page.

Now, the other side of the coin. This is what gets me. If you are a new model and have some really bad images on your page and what $100.00hr just because you think someone wants to see you naked then don’t get mad when you don’t get the work that you thought you were. Most pro image makes have no problem getting models to shoot TFP with them. Just because models want really good images on there page are at least the serious ones any way. At where I am now if I pay a model then you know she is really, really good and has an outstanding portfolio like the models I just named. It’s really a two way street and the respect has to come both ways. This is how it works for me. No pro image maker likes to waste time or money. If you want to get paid then you have to be good but some out there will pay a model just to see them naked. They are not pros but if it works for you than more power to you.

the concept of a free shoot would be great, however the model is the one doing all the work, all i do is hold the camera. i would feel guilty if i didn’t pay anything, even on a trade shoot i am still letting go of the much needed green backs…how or should i say overcome these feelings?

Well one way would be to do more than just hold a camera. Use your vision, give direction, realize how many more hours are spent before and after the shoot for prepping and post production.

oh i do, i am right there with them thru the whole thing. and i am always thinking of the end result…as far as prepping to goes with out saying. thanks for your suggestion though…it still just dont seem right for a model to work for free or only get pictures. i understand that a trade shoot is just that a trade…plus with the underwater stuff. if a model hasn’t done this before i always train them for free.

unfortunately there are some well-known photographer who has not tried to take advantage of opportunities to not pay the models, although I am not a lover of money but they should also have to work professionally if they need models for their portfolio, because I think all the talk can be beneficial for both.

I think focusing on Reuben’s writing prose would be missing the point. He has some great things in this article that I agree with. Thank you Reuben for putting this out there. It’s a good article.

Great info here Reuben. You really explained why paying for good shots will improve your port better than a ton of free crap.
I do wonder what my partner and I are doing wrong then. I have spent 5 years in front of and behind cameras and he has a natural eye for great shots. We’ve got great equipment, some of the best around and know how to use it very well but we still can’t get good quality models that will work hard even when we pay them. And yes I said pay THEM. I’m starting to think they’re aren’t any good reliable models in Atlanta anymore. Furthermore almost all of these models have taken horrible shots with photogs that are merely perverts with cameras and they think that spreading they’re legs in some nasty cheap hotel room is better than what we shoot. Hell we don’t even really do nudes unless we can do them justice. The kind that Helmut Newton would approve. Hell just two days ago a so called model blew us off to go shoot the exact crap I mention here. Not to rant or soapbox at all I would just really, REALLY like to know how all these perverts with cameras get all these models that could actually do good work if they weren’t shooting with these perverts, put some clothes on and came to a real studio, reel them in. Maybe they’re just smooth talkers or maybe most of the people in Atlanta are idiots. I don’t know but anybody else out there have the same problem? Thanks a bunch and once again Reuben, you did a fantastic job here.

Brett

Excellent article!

i think it’s all in how you approach the models. i have been shooting since the 80′s and have worked with models of every experience level. i have had misunderstandings very few times but all of them were worked out and everyone ended up having a good time. from my experience and talking to models over the years, i’ve learned that arrogance and attitude are what can turn a model away quicker than those so-called perverts you mentioned that are out there. also every ones interpretations of what we do is different. what you or i see as perverted might not be to everyone. don’t get me wrong there are real perverts out there, and i’m not upholding them, but don’t be so quick to judge. art-is-art. models will work for you, as long as you pay a rate they are comfortable with. usually the rate of pay is equal to there experience level…remember you get what you pay for. didn’t mean to preach, sorry.

Amazing post, may have changed my life

Thanks John,
I enjoyed your reply. I understand completely how arrogance and attitude will ruin everything. That’s why I know it’s not that. Oh and the perverted photog I mentioned earlier, I found out from a friend that shot with him, he asked her if he could perform oral sex on her, which he says most of the models that shoot with him ask him to do so. He has no equipment at all and no car. Sadly she said that he came highly recommended from other friends of hers. I just fail to see how he can be highly recommended and get hard working models and I can’t. Oh and I wish you could have seen these images. I don’t see how anyone could see them as art. They really are that bad. Oh and about the pay, my partner and I have overpaid just about every model we’ve ever shot because almost all of them have told us they never get paid because it always a TF print type thing. They welcome the money but always flake out somewhere down the road. Oh and we’ve come across many drug addicts too in Atlanta. I’m thinking we’re going to start going to modeling agencies and try and get talent through them. I do thank you though for your comments though and hope Reuben doesn’t get mad for us getting off track a bit. Thanks once again John,

Brett

i know what you mean about the drug addicts, sadly drug addiction has invaded or little part of the world. fortunately i haven’t met any from model mayhem yet. as for whatever their addiction i don’t ask a lot of questions but i do expect them to be straight and sober for our shoot. what they do any other time is their business…i used to have a lot of high end equipment and felt like i had to make a cover of a magazine. but i knew i would never be able to quit my day job, so i sold the biggest part of it. now i shoot only for the fun of it as a hobby and have never been happier. i do underwater photography and i will shoot anywhere there is water and it is safe for the model, you would think it would be hard to find models for this type of work(used to be), but if i had the money i could shoot day and night for a long time, with a different model. not bragging here so please don’t take it that way. the way i find my models who i want to work with is simple. i never judge a model by her portfolio i try to take her away from everything in the pics, and look at her, then i imagine how she would look in the pics i want to shoot. i always remember an old saying never overlook an orchid while searching for a rose. everybody goes thru what you are going thru, just don’t give up… sorry i got to preaching again

By all means, continue! I love that questions have come up and discussions started!

Well played.

Cool, thanks for sharing that Chris!

Exactly. Great thoughts, Leo.

Don’t sell yourself short, John! All Picasso did was stand there flicking a brush back and forth I don’t even think his model gets work any more… haha

Thanks. I will admit that this article wasn’t my best writing-wise. But just like photography, I’ll keep getting better!

Thanks!!

Wow, really?!?! That’s so cool! Would love to hear how your “new life” is going and what you are changing.

Well I’m a beginner model photographer in Toronto with thousands of dollars of equipment. I’m offering it up for free if a model can help me out in return. The way I see it, the photographer gets the short end of the stick let’s be honest. I’m giving no hate at all or taking sides or anything.. but you guys need to understand, just one of my lenses cost me $750. That’s just a single lens. Not even the camera, other lenses, flashes, backdrops, umbrella’s, soft boxes, lights, etc.

Imagine someone has a dirty car. And I have a car wash worth thousands of dollars that I’m offering up for free if they want their car washed. The person says ‘I’ll come out to your free car wash if you pay me, if not, then I’m not coming’.

If you were a VERY influential person that could get me more business, then I would pay you to come out. But the chances are you are not.

So no hate at all, if you are a beginner or have been less than successful modeling, then there’s no harm in spending a few hours doing a free shoot. You are using facilities that costs thousands of dollars for free and you only have things to gain.. nothing to lose.

It’s types like myself that had to front the thousands and thousands of dollars So try to look at it that way. If you HAD to say who benefits more, the model always is the benefactor, not the photographer. No hate just my opinion.

well not to sound negative, but say you have a car wash that cost a million dollars. what can your car wash do better or differently than the one down the road that cost ten thousand dollars. also you need to ask yourself, why did you get into this business to start with. was it something you enjoyed doing or was it with a profit in mind? i do totally agree wit what you said about models putting in some time if you do the same that’s a fair exchange but as we all know it doesn’t put food on the table…yes it is true photographers spend a lot of money on equipment but a lot(not all)models spend their money at the gym, wardrobe, make up shoes, hair, nails, and even their tans all these expenses add up, plus unlike photo equipment their expense is a continual thing they deal with. sorry i didn’t mean to sound negative about your post, i was just trying to shine a light from a different direction.

Actually my equipment is mostly to shoot weddings and such on the side. I just like photography as a hobby. But I always wanted to try my hand with models. The photography group I’m with will be looking for models all winter. The groups is probably going to have $20,000 worth of equipment combined with shoot 3 areas. All the model has to do is show up. The planning, financing, preparation, etc. etc. is all done by us.

The facts are, the money for the model comes from real clients. We all know how few ‘real clients’ there are out there to pay out to models. These guys mostly deal with established agencies.

Actually, back in the old days, the models would have to spend like $750 for a portfolio just to join an agency. Models should realize that those white color lenses that they see cost between $1,500 and $5,000. I think a lot of people don’t realize just how much this equipment costs.

I just don’t feel that models should be looking at photographers to pay them. I think it’s actually a bit silly. I’d pay for travel expenses to come out and foot half the bill for hair and makeup. I think that’s more than fair.

Maybe if we take good pics, then they can get some paid work from real clients. Or maybe I might get contacted for work and contract the models.

I strongly agree with what you are saying. However other than the obvious model photography is a lot different than wedding work…I think a lot of the models have very little of their portfolios shot by a professional photographer. I have however seensome amazing work in portfolios. I think a lot of the models feel that they can get enough work shooting with the hobbyist or casual photographer that they don’t need to spend the money for a true portfolio. As much as I love the internet digital photos have done a great deal of harm to have having a actual print portfolio. So someone like you has a lot of money invested in their equipment doesn’t get the recognition they deserve… lets face it the digital cameras these days do a pretty good job, and that is good enough for most models. They could get a friend with a 100 dollar camera do your job for them and save around 650 dollars… I read a models profile the other day she said in there that “time is money and she doesn’t have enough either” that is the mindset these days…

I agree. What I would do if I was serious about modeling, is I would pay a professional to make me a real portfolio. This would need hair makeup, assistants, etc. You’ll get much better results this way.

If the model is young and/or cannot afford it (which is very understandable), then there are some people who are in the same situation who could take some good pictures who also have studio lighting. You might not get the hair and makeup, but you can get some pretty good results. If you want those great shots, you really need that glam, pro hair and makeup and that will never be for free. I’m willing to go halves on that because I know how dramatic the pics can be and it would really help both of our portfolios.

But I would wouldn’t compare someone with studio lighting to a hundred dollar digital camera though. The pics will come out looking very different under studio lighting because of the shadows. The person who is experienced knows how to make models look flattering, etc. If they are good with computers they can do all sorts of things like smooth skin (and make it look real!) and other techniques to beautify the model. There are a lot of photographers on the site and most of the work seems to be acceptable.

They need to realize though in the long run, they shouldn’t depend on photographers themselves to actually pay them. That’s not how the business works. Honestly I think a lot of the new models really believe that payment comes from photographers and that’s just not how things are supposed to work. Payment is actually supposed to come from real clients (like Sears for instance). Sears contacts the modeling agency, the agency discusses the models with Sears, the Sears people decide what they like. The modeling agency hires a photographer, hair, makeup, and models. Then the modeling agency bills Sears the cost of the shoot plus profit and everyone gets paid. That’s the way it’s supposed to work.

Many of the models and photographers who aren’t getting work should work with each other to build their portfolio and skills. They say ‘practice makes perfect’ and I think that Trade photo shoots are a good thing and models should be more open to them until they are making a living from modeling

Right on Leo. I tried to make this point to a new model and she got offended and blocked. I commented on her photo, she sent me an email, I said if you wanted to pump up your port hit me up. Her response was I’m not interested in pay photographers. I gave her an explanation similar to what you said and told her to reconsider based on the images in her port. Well she lost it at that point. Totally agree with you.

you have really enlightened me:) i’m hitting that point where more and more photogs are contacting me for “tf”, and i honestly don’t have time for all of them. i was wondering if i should start charging.. and i think you have answered my question.:) thank you so much. i really do feel better about my business aspect of modeling now.

Hi, I am 41 and i just started modeling in June this year. I have 3 Children and Married. I have done many photoshoots and have gotten a lot of Experience. I am very petite, And i have Stretch marks on my Stomach. And i have noticed that going to meet and greets there are younger girls then me that have Stretch marks to, and they won’t show their Stomach, But i just let it all hang out. I’m not afraid to show it. Is that wrong of me or should i keep doing it ? I want to get out there and be somebody. I don’t like beating around the bush. I have Beautiful long leggs and Beautiful hazel Eye’s. I want people to notice me for who i am, Not who they think i want to be. I love modeling and my Photos alway’s come out Beautiful. And i am now looking for Paid Print work, fashion and Runway. Any advice on how i can get started ?

Awesome!! I’d love to hear more about your thought process and your situation. It’s great being able to hear about things from the model’s perspective.

Thoughts from any other models?

In my day job, I run training workshops to help researchers get their work published in scientific journals. I have been doing it for over 20 years, so I have a pretty good eye for good text and bad text (I also have a Ph D) and I have to say that semi234′s comments seem totally without merit.

The perfect text does not exist, but yours is a highly creditable effort and I hope you continue to contribute to MM in the same pleasant and helpful style as in the article above.

Great article. This really made great sense to me. I am going to try a few paid shoots not to see so much if I can become established as I still have much to learn, but more to see what kind of images I may be able to produce with experienced models. I think that it might really make a huge impact. Thanks for the tips! Have a blessed day!

I like the article. One of the ongoing discussions have been that if a model gets paid, then why are they expecting images as well. Their form of compensation has been monetary, so why are they expecting images as well. It’s an interesting discussion I guess. Because you’re not ever really “shooting for free.” There is always going to be at least one pic that you will use for your port (even if it’s just a party pic) and if you are working well with a model, then there will be at least one pic that they will use or post somewhere else. My tf jobs have led me to more paying work than I’ve thought I would get for someone who hasn’t been in this very long.

Why is there always and emphasise on the photographer’s and models portfolio with TF* shoots. When a trade shoot happens why are models so reluctant to sign releases so the photographer can actually use the images (gallery shows, derivative artworks, etc.).

Thanks for the great info !

I think this all boils down to “what’s in it for me?” TFP/Pay/Free all have things to take from them. Those that are in it for the product rather than in it for the models stand to make the biggest gains. For me, I’m just starting out in the world of model photography after coming in from the street and landscapes – I’ll probably do some shoots with friends and referrals to start to help me hone my techniques. There’s a lot for me to learn that’s different on this side of the field lighting, direction, make-up/hair/clothing. Until now my photography has been opportunistic, I’m now finding that I will need to do far more research than just knowing how to set the options on my camera, which filter(s) to use and where to point my lens.

It’s a new world for me, with a lot to learn, but that’s why I’m getting into this – great article; it’s given me some new perspectives to mull over. I look forward to reading more.

think what you really want to do in this industry.. go mainstream or whatever else they call it. honestly determine if you’re a commercial or fashion model. then reconsider you’re port/book and you’re experience…lastly shoot with a photographer who can help you get on the right track.

ex. if you’re more the commercial type.. then shoot similar style to catalog – dept.store, j.crew, eddie bauer…shoot for your age. or if you look young- then go 5 years younger look (styling is very important)- some smile, laughs, etc etc.

if there’s an agency or mgmt in your area- develop your prints and go see them or email them…

if the photographer knows people- and if you develop good relationship with the photographer, he/she can help introduce some cool clients to you- as well..

yea…

I have been doinf tfp for a while now.. I’ve got a great port put together and I’m ready to start “gaining something from it.” Best way?

Often the photographer is the client.

interested in hiring a photographer for explicit artful photos with my boyfriend. Can you tell me how to go about that?

I count not disagree more with your statement that the model is the one doing all the work. For any shoot, there is significant preparation before the shoot, whether it is preparing a set or scouting locations, each of which can take several hours. After that, there are several hours in reviewing images and editing the keepers. In between, there is coaching the model and providing feedback.

On top of that, there is the real risk that the model is simply not up to the job, especially with beginners. Whenever I do a TF shoot, I always supply the model with the better images to help her build a portfolio, but that does not mean that I get any images that make a useful addition to my portfolio.

From my perspective, TF is a one-way bet in favour of the model. I have had some very good TF shoots, but they are clearly the minority.

I would ask your friends for a recommendation. If you find any luck there, you can always use Model Mayhem to find a photographer And ask them for any references.