Katalina Daer wrote:

i dont get it, did they save someone?

Just one single miner...
The saddest thing about this is, that first authorithies claimed that twelve of the men had survived. Must be horrible for family and friends to find out that they didn't

Katalina Daer wrote:

i dont get it, did they save someone?

they saved no one, and no one could save them...God have mercy on their souls.

UdoR wrote:

Sorry, but Hartsoe is correct.

I believe that we throw the word "hero" way too fast around and make real heroic deeds disappear among the casual labeling of anybody and everybody "hero".

If among the coal miners is one guy, who is, while down there, caring and rescuing a colleague, maybe carrying a badly injured out of a collapsed tunnel... going in there to get his buddy, and no one else would go in there besides him... that, my friend... is a hero... but not someone who is merely trapped.

Firefighters, policemen and soldiers are not automatically heros. They selected a job that has inherent danger, and they get paid for it. So, there too, only a heroic deed among the regular duty makes someone a hero.

Frankly, I find that random "hero" calling, which became part of the common language, a disgrace to those, who individually go out of their comfortzone to save someone elses life with disregard to their own life.

Amen. I'm in total agreement here. Theres just too much throwing the hero tag around in this country.
There are many hazardous fields of work, and going to work and the something happens and you die,  or are severly injured, you are not a hero your someone who died or was injured on the job. Not that we shouldn't feel sympathy for that person or send best wishes.
Heroism requires an act of valor, performance out of the ordinary despite danger to self for the benefit of others.

Paul

BCG wrote:
"Heroism requires an act of valor, performance out of the ordinary despite danger to self for the benefit of others."



by your definition, these men are heros.

Most certainly not. they were doing their job and a mishap occurred most died. There was no heroism just guys killed on a dangerous job. Please show me proof of valor? Don't song and dance me about the they died serving others...they died earning a paycheck. Not that it makes it many less tragic.

Paul

Merlinpix wrote:

Most certainly not. they were doing their job and a mishap occurred most died. There was no heroism just guys killed on a dangerous job. Please show me proof of valor? Don't song and dance me about the they died serving others...they died earning a paycheck. Not that it makes it many less tragic.

Paul

go to any mine in virginia...you will see...words can not describe what these men do for no other glory than to feed their families...the risks taken far outweigh the small monetary reward...those who died in that mine are better men than you or i could ever hope to be.

BCG wrote:

go to any mine in virginia...you will see...words can not describe what these men do for no other glory than to feed their families...the risks taken far outweigh the small monetary reward...those who died in that mine are better men than you or i could ever hope to be.

That is called working for a living as dirty and dangerous as it may be.
They accepted the  risks and lost the gamble.
They did not deliberately place themselves in harms way to help out someone else with them. They died in an industrial accident
Your not talking Florence Nightengale, Rodger Young, Alvin York, Audie Murphy, or damn near every combat medic here
Please speak for yourself, you know nothing of my life, and I shant bore you with the details.

Paul

BCG wrote:

go to any mine in virginia...you will see...words can not describe what these men do for no other glory than to feed their families...the risks taken far outweigh the small monetary reward...those who died in that mine are better men than you or i could ever hope to be.

If you've never seen it, you might want to check out the movie Matewan.

Merlinpix wrote:

Most certainly not. they were doing their job and a mishap occurred most died. There was no heroism just guys killed on a dangerous job. Please show me proof of valor? Don't song and dance me about the they died serving others...they died earning a paycheck. Not that it makes it many less tragic.

Paul

by your logic, the boys at normandy beach were just working for a paycheck.

BCG wrote:

by your logic, the boys at normandy beach were just working for a paycheck.

That does not make any sense at all BCG, and you know it. The boys at Normandy DID show valor, and there is proof.

I heard an interview from a miner that works in the mine where the accident occured he said he enjoyed his job, but it was dangerous. I don't think that when the forces stormed Normandy that any of them were there because it was a decent and enjoyable way to make a living.

BCG wrote:
"because it was a decent and enjoyable way to make a living."


mining is far from decent and enjoyable, and i doubt that the standard of living miners have could even be grossly misconstrued as comfortable...those miners are american heros...the represented the values which this country once stood for...the flags should be held at half mast.

Dude...I heard it from a miner with my own ears. He said it was good money, and he enjoyed it! He said he was a bit dissappointed that his son didn't work there too! He said you have to respect the working envornment, and that it could be dangerous, but that he was glad to do it.

Besides that, BCG, you deliberately misquoted me. What I said was...

I don't think that when the forces stormed Normandy that any of them were there because it was a decent and enjoyable way to make a living.

Then you pulled a "Bill O'Reilly" on me and hacked up my quote to make it look like I was talking about the miners. (Either that or you were just terribly and rather dumbly misreading what I said)

BCG wrote:
it takes bigger balls to do what those men did/do than most military operations today...we are not worthy of the respect of these men...God have mercy upon their souls.

You think insulting the men and women of the military is a good way to praise people who work in a coalmine?

What are you, 10 years old?

"My dad can beat up your dad."

Whatever.

BCG wrote:
"because it was a decent and enjoyable way to make a living."


mining is far from decent and enjoyable, and i doubt that the standard of living miners have could even be grossly misconstrued as comfortable...those miners are american heros...the represented the values which this country once stood for...the flags should be held at half mast.

For whatever it's worth, it is their choice.  I'm aware that it is difficult as well as dangerous work, but so are many other occupations that we may choose to do.  It is nice how much you care for those coal miners, and it is very sad what happened to them.  But I just can't see them as being more worthy of being called "heroes" than police, firefighter, soldiers, etc. who put their lives in jeopardy every day as do the coal miners. When it's our relative, our loved ones who are risking their lives, then of course they are heroes to us!

I lost a friend, a young man I knew who always wanted to be a fireman.  I met Brian Golden when I photographed his sister who modeled.  Brian also modeled. He was a handsome, smart and popular man in high school.  He went on to the fire academy graduating near the top of his class.  He then was hired by Stockton, a city in land from San Jose where he grew up. 

On the very first major fire call, he and a veteran firefighter went into a burning apartment complex to attempt to save an elderly woman.  The roof collapsed on them and they were killed.  Brian was a good man, I liked him as a friend.  He left a wonderful family that I care about.  It's so terribly sad and ironic that he died on the first major fire he was called to.  This was before 9/11 by a couple years when this happened, but I will always remember him as a brave man, a true hero!  I miss you Brian Golden, may you rest in peace.

I am sad that those coal miners died.  It is awful how the misinformation intensified the emotional heartache these families have all suffered through.  Calling them heroes may provide some comfort to the survivors, but the reality is that men and women who choose to do dangerous work many times do not consider themselves to be heroes.  They see it as doing a job that needs to be done!

BCG wrote:
quote: "because it was a decent and enjoyable way to make a living."


these people have no choice...they live in areas that shame all of america...some of the homes these people in the rural mine areas make a crack house look like luxury home...i am truly ashamed to be am american today.

Ashamed to be an American?  I'm sure the living conditions cannot be much worse than that of those children in South Africa who die everyday due to starvation and AIDS.  If it's about living conditions, then they should be heroes too, right?

America is supposed to be where we can pull ourselves out of poverty.  If you want to broaden the scope here, well field workers in Salinas, CA where I'm from are still living in shacks with multiple family's in the same living quarters.  The deep sea fishing vessels go out from the Monterey harbor and sometimes fishermen are lost at sea.  They don't exactly have wonderful living conditions while working.  These are people who harvest the food we put on our tables.

We lost a California highway Patrolman over the New Years holiday.  He was killed while assisting a disabled car on the highway when he was hit by a car. The driver of the car also died.  So what is a hero?  Someone who works at a hazardous job, or lives in poverty, or is it someone who goes beyond the call of duty to protect and serve?   Ask then why they do it! They don't do this so that we can call them "heros."

By the way, I'm proud AND thankful to be an American.

BodyPainter Rich  wrote:
I don't think that when the forces stormed Normandy that any of them were there because it was a decent and enjoyable way to make a living.

If you are going to quote me, quote me in context!

I'm proud to be an American, today as usual.

MInes are also modern compared to what we've seen in the movies. I just heard another radio report, and it featured information on 11 of the 12 miners. The were decent men, many over 50. They seemed to be good men, and more than one of them were said to be glad to be mining. One man lost 170 lbs. so that he could work in the mine again, and not up on the surface! These men made a choice. They may, or may not, have been heroes; and to be honest I'm sad for their families just the same either way.

Oh, and your bit about their homes. Starting wages at that mine were between $19-21 an hour. In West Virginia that can buy you a pretty decent place! Where are you getting your facts about modern West Virginia? I think, BCG, that you have a romantic idea of mining and West Virginia that may not be true. And before you get steamed up, I'm not claiming a handle on the truth either...I'm just going by what I've heard from the people who are living there now.

BCG wrote:
these people have no choice...they live in areas that shame all of america...some of the homes these people in the rural mine areas make a crack house look like luxury home...i am truly ashamed to be am american today.

(chuckle)

You're hysterically clueless.

Ashamed to be an American? Then go move the the Middle East.

You think "rural mines areas" and "crack houses" in the ghetto are bad?! They are PARADISE - because drive-by shootings are NOTHING compared to having a SCUD Missile blow up the Johnsons house across the street!

BCG wrote:
quote: "because it was a decent and enjoyable way to make a living."


these people have no choice...they live in areas that shame all of america...some of the homes these people in the rural mine areas make a crack house look like luxury home...i am truly ashamed to be am american today.

Call Tim Baker...you two can be ashamed together.  I didn't see you say anything about the alaskan fishermen who die by the scores each year. 

Coal mining is tough hard work.  But it is still a choice.  I come from a poor town where your choices are turkey farming or watermellon farming.  A very poor community where a large number live in trailer parks.  People leave Pageland SC everyday never to return.  Some stay.  It is a choice.  These men knew the danger.  They made a choice.  To say other wise is just plain wrong.


PS...don't think we don't notice that you are being purposefully reactionary just draw attention to yourself.  We see it.  Just like the lesbian stuff you posted last week.

BCG wrote:
"PS...don't think we don't notice that you are being purposefully reactionary just draw attention to yourself.  We see it.  Just like the lesbian stuff you posted last week."


yes, i have and will continue to post silly stuff, but i am still appalled at the distorted views and values of most americans...we have become a nation that honors and worships self and and faux veneers...i suspect that most men here lack the intestinal fortitude to do what these men do, day in and day out for what at best can be considered a less than desirable lifestyle.

my idea of what  an amerian hero is:

1. a kid in the projects or bario that does not join a gang
2. teachers in the  inner city that care
3. single mom who works three jobs
4. the kid/person that volunteers at a food line or old foks home
5. the stranger who stops a weak kid from getting beaten up
6. the person who really knows what racism is but goes on living without anger
7. miners

*listens to the violins*

BCG wrote:
"PS...don't think we don't notice that you are being purposefully reactionary just draw attention to yourself.  We see it.  Just like the lesbian stuff you posted last week."


yes, i have and will continue to post silly stuff, but i am still appalled at the distorted views and values of most americans...we have become a nation that honors and worships self and and faux veneers...i suspect that most men here lack the intestinal fortitude to do what these men do, day in and day out for what at best can be considered a less than desirable lifestyle.

my idea of what  an amerian hero is:

1. a kid in the projects or bario that does not join a gang
2. teachers in the  inner city that care
3. single mom who works three jobs
4. the kid/person that volunteers at a food line or old foks home
5. the stranger who stops a weak kid from getting beaten up
6. the person who really knows what racism is but goes on living without anger
7. miners

Man, to lead a decent and serious discussion you really have to work on your semantics...

BCG wrote:
"PS...don't think we don't notice that you are being purposefully reactionary just draw attention to yourself.  We see it.  Just like the lesbian stuff you posted last week."


yes, i have and will continue to post silly stuff, but i am still appalled at the distorted views and values of most americans...we have become a nation that honors and worships self and and faux veneers...i suspect that most men here lack the intestinal fortitude to do what these men do, day in and day out for what at best can be considered a less than desirable lifestyle.

my idea of what  an amerian hero is:

1. a kid in the projects or bario that does not join a gang
2. teachers in the  inner city that care
3. single mom who works three jobs
4. the kid/person that volunteers at a food line or old foks home
5. the stranger who stops a weak kid from getting beaten up
6. the person who really knows what racism is but goes on living without anger
7. miners

I agree 100% with what you just wrote.  Not one ounce to the contrary.  BUT, that does not mean you should be ashamed.  Because in America...all these things are possible.  It was and Is America that allows for these heroic successes dispite the odds.  There are barios everywhere.  There are old folks everywhere.  Kids get beat up everywhere.  Racism is less here than most of the so-called "enlightened" places of the world. (no matter what others tell you)  In America we have people like you that support and appreciate the sacrifice that the folks you listed above make.  So, no need to be ashamed.  We are not perfect, but we are pretty damn good!


(here it comes, a knee jerk, "I'm not comfortable with being happy for America" reaction.  Who's first?  Tim?)

BCG wrote:
my idea of what  an amerian hero is:

Moderators that not only put you in "time-out," but keep you there.

area291 wrote:

Moderators that not only put you in "time-out," but keep you there.

the mods love me.