Julia Gerace wrote:
as long as it's in the convo:

a studio manager: -- at one point, I had a person who would help answer emails, phone calls and schedule things - eventually she was going to do sales as well... initially it was for trade (new mom) and then for money...we never got that far, unfortunately..

but then a photographer I consider quite successful said -why would you trust your initial meeting with a client to another person? the client is calling for you and want to reach you - not some assistant'

thoughts?

If you were to hire someone, (assistant, studio manager, etc) bring in someone you trust or someone who can earn that trust. One photographer I worked for, the first week I was sweeping floors, painting walls, taking out the trash. As they got to know and trust me, I earned my way into more important roles.

The person should compliment you. Find a person whose strengths are your weaknesses. ( you suck at dealing with people, you hire a person with genuine  people skills.)

Also, they don't have to handle the initial meeting, you dictate what they handle and don't. But it's way more impressive to have someone else answer the phone, even if its just to hand it to you.

You have to find what works for you.

Julia Gerace wrote:
as long as it's in the convo:

a studio manager: -- at one point, I had a person who would help answer emails, phone calls and schedule things - eventually she was going to do sales as well... initially it was for trade (new mom) and then for money...we never got that far, unfortunately..

but then a photographer I consider quite successful said -why would you trust your initial meeting with a client to another person? the client is calling for you and want to reach you - not some assistant'

thoughts?

Because they possess skills you do not.

You make your money taking pictures. Booking, selling, editing etc are all necessary parts of the business but not necessarily things we as photographers do well. Those are the times we hire someone so we can use our time on things that are productive.

Many photographers start as one person shops, some stay that way because we either cannot give up some control, train others or do what is necessary to grow.

The client is calling because they want a solution to an imaging problem which they see you as being able to provide, not a conversation.

Julia Gerace wrote:
.... it's the 5% that don't follow the policies that create issues...

Only 5%?  You should be telling the rest of us how to do things.

Julia Gerace wrote:
Oddly enough this doesn't have to do with MM or models....it's more actual people that are just so rude, so challengingly stupid sometimes - I have hard time kissing up - always have, it's a major fault...

Doesn't matter where you go, you find people like that everywhere. Might as well figure out how to deal with those issues here.

AJScalzitti wrote:

Lol I know a product guy who has not seen his largest client in years. They FedEx him new products, he shoot it, FTPs the images, and send the products back on their FedEx account.  Hundreds of SKUs a year without much of any communications.

Julia Gerace wrote:
...
but then a photographer I consider quite successful said -why would you trust your initial meeting with a client to another person? the client is calling for you and want to reach you - not some assistant'

thoughts?

Think about how other professionals handle it - your doctor, your lawyer, and even many real estate salespeople, will leave the routine work to someone else.  It also gives the impression that you are a person whose time is valuable, not an amateur subject to negotiations.

Sales work is a talent unto itself.  They know how to overcome objections and keep driving for the close.  With another person taking the initial calls, they can brag on you in a way that would be unseemly for you yourself to do.  Yes, this talent expects to be paid, but if you can crank up your number of sales, maybe you can handle it.

AJScalzitti wrote:

Lol I know a product guy who has not seen his largest client in years. They FedEx him new products, he shoot it, FTPs the images, and send the products back on their FedEx account.  Hundreds of SKUs a year without much of any communications.

From that standpoint, sure.  Many times I don't even have to ship back.  I got a nice SS Charbroil grill that way.  BUT...

It's still being in business for yourself.  That means branding and marketing and sales and billing and schmoozing and all of that.

I've owned two businesses outright and have been a partner in a third and am currently on the advisory board of a fourth.  If you don't like dealing with people, or can't fake it, you can't survive.

Julia Gerace wrote:
I'm just not sure what to do about it.. I mean I have the best intentions normally but then something happens and I just can't figure out how to deal...

If you were to ask honestly what I thought my problem was, I would have to say that it's from years of giving people the benefit of the doubt and being let down regularly, combined with just not digging people that I find irrational...

I know I shoot myself in the foot, I know that it's self sabotoge, I know it stems from holding past experiences in mind but I'm lost...

and then I reach this point where I just don't want to shoot anymore...

Hello Julia!

I have trouble with people.  I really, truly like people, but I don't always grok them.  I'm lucky.  In my Other Life™, I work a technology job where I must work and survive with non-technical people.

Don't expect them to grok you.  They won't.  You need to grok them and help them communicate with you.  That's a significant part of your job.

Julia Gerace wrote:
a client emailed me a few days ago inquiring about a session but she wanted an in person consultation...  I said, very nicely, that I don't usually do in person consultations because people usually regret not just scheduling the session once they are already there and that I'd be more than happy to talk to her on the phone - I attached all my session info for her too -- so then she says she wants to meet up, see the studio and my 'book' and gives a date...   I say o.k but I can not meet on that date and I give her two other dates and I explain that I don't have my book, it's at an auction right now but there are plenty of samples in my studio of my headshot work as well as my other sessions...

I don't hear from her so... I wait a day and email to very friendly inquire - did you get my last email with dates?  to which she replies - I scheduled with another photographer ---   so, I nicely asked who referred her so I could be sure to thank them in the future...


there you go... why she felt the need to not talk to me first is beyond me... no, 'let's talk and then meet' or talk and then shoot, nothing...  now, personally, I don't care... I don't want to work with someone who won't be upfront with why they would want me to change my policy just for them....  I mean, if she had said she had stranger anxiety and wanted to meet up, I'd be all over that - sure thing...  I even asked if she had any specific concerns that she wanted to ask....

and it's stuff like that that triggers an internal thought that, no, I'm just not meant for this....

Reread the bolded part.  You're doing it right.  You're just not recognizing it.

I just went to your website.  I didn't see a photo of you.  Maybe there's one of you there, but I couldn't easily find it.  I don't know how you look.  I don't know your eyes.

Seems stupid someone wants to see how you look.  Seems irrational someone wants to meet you in person.

Here's the other side.

"I'm the person being photographed.  I'm self-conscious.  I don't know you.  I like what I see of your work, but, uh, I just don't know.  Will we connect?  Will you understand me?  Will you be sensitive to how I feel?  I need to see you, to talk with you, to feel you're going to work with me."

"I need to meet with you, but you say you don't do that.  *Sigh.*  This other photographer understands something of my needs.  Even though that person may not be as good a photographer, s/he understands something of my needs.  That person cares about me.  I'll go with that person."

You need to stick to real principles.  I do and I've never once regretted it.  You also need to help people with their needs.  Does this take more time?  Sure.  Charge more to compensate, but give the good ones what they need.  Educate them.  They're not stupid, they're not bad.  They're just different, and they look at the world through eyes that don't see what you see.

They need to meet with you?  It's their need.  Meet with them.  They almost always schedule?  Make it so they ALWAYS schedule.  They won't, but try anyway.  Consider it a challenge.

Julia Gerace wrote:
and that's just a small incident....I won't get into the theater that I've been donating three years of work for only to not even get a thank you when they realized it....

Never waste your time helping thankless people.  I don't.  ____ 'em.

Drop out if you must.  You posted however because you don't want to drop out.  Don't.  You're good.

Adapt and don't compromise real principles.

Good luck and keep up the good work!

Zack Zoll wrote:
There are a lot of ways to make a living with photography that have nothing to do with clients.  That means that you probably need to deal with galleries, dealers, and buyers, but that's a whole different kind of BS, and it might suit you better.

Whenever I get stressed about photography, I put my business camera down for a few days.  Then I pick up a different camera (anything at all - just something I haven't used in a while) and spend a week or so walking around town and taking pictures.  That usually helps me to clear my head, and remind me that the paid photography is part of what I do, but it is not ALL I do.

Oh man, if you think portrait clients can be a pain, wait to you deal with galleries and buyers.  I'm very, very, very lucky to have a great gallarista.  Even still, buyers?  I was standing next to a well to do yuppie couple - who didn't know I was one of the artists - look at an original Newton only to hear the husband go "there's nothing special about that, hell, I could do that." 

Or to have an interior designer client contact the gallery to ask if I could change the background on one of my still life shots so that it better matched her clients living room...

Or to be commissioned by a someone to shoot a series only to find out that want to art direct the entire thing - with no knowledge of either art or direction...

The list goes on and on and on and....

But, if you want them to keep putting coins in the box, you got to keep dancing...

I know amazing artists who starve, because they simply can't manage business relationships.  Some have been lucky enough to marry someone who can, but even then it can be tough for them. 

I'm not suggesting that the OP sell her soul, I wouldn't, but you need a thick skin to be in business and you need to be able to stay strong while making the customer feel good about the whole situation.  That is an art in and of itself.

Robert Helm wrote:

Because they possess skills you do not.

You make your money taking pictures. Booking, selling, editing etc are all necessary parts of the business but not necessarily things we as photographers do well. Those are the times we hire someone so we can use our time on things that are productive.

Many photographers start as one person shops, some stay that way because we either cannot give up some control, train others or do what is necessary to grow.

The client is calling because they want a solution to an imaging problem which they see you as being able to provide, not a conversation.

This is actually a really good point, and bears being re-posted.  Being that I've work part-time in my family's store for years, I always notice good customer service, and the people that are or are not good salespeople.  Granted, there are times when I notice it more or less, depending on how much I know about things.

But selling is a skill, and strangely enough it has very little to do with knowledge of the product you're selling.  You need to know about it of course ... but you can actually know *too* much.  A person who is really knowledgeable and gung-ho about what they're selling will often confuse the buyer with tech speak, or try to sell them what they think would be best, rather than listening to the buyer's needs and making simple suggestions.

The best salespeople I've ever had wait on me were much less likely to know all the answers offhand, and a lot more likely to say, "I don't know, but I'll be happy to look it up for you right now."

Also, good salespeople never forget to ask if you want fries with that.  Upselling is a big deal, and and extra enlargement, a few extra small prints to mail to relatives, all that adds up.  Guys like us are so busy doing our day-to-day work that it often doesn't even occur to us to say, "These are the photos you want for your wedding album?  Great!  Hey, I bet one of these would look really good on your Mom's wall."  We're often already thinking about the shit that we've got to do for our NEXT client, and we've already checked out the conversation by the time THIS client says they're happy and takes out their credit card.  But someone that doesn't need to think about the next client until they show up won't have that problem.

And as mentioned, it makes you look like your time is more valuable.  If it's an important thing like a wedding you probably still want to meet the couple beforehand, but having someone else iron everything out for you gives the client the impression that they're dealing with someone important, and not just a GWC.

Of course, you need to pay that person.  Have you thought about a commission-based salary?  If you're selling prints, albums, etc., then you could very easily afford to take a good-sized hit on those.  And if you have a reasonably good amount of clients come through the door, minimum wage plus a 5-10% commission depending on the product could potentially make for a pretty good paycheck.

Or if all you're worried about is not dealing with people, you could offer a huge commission - say 40%.  If your employee upsells every client to a framed photo, album, or other relatively expensive, but not unaffordable, addon, then that covers that day's pay for them pretty easily.  You're not making any extra money from that other thing they sold, but then again it doesn't cost you anything to keep them around either, since they're basically producing their own wages.

Julia Gerace wrote:
as long as it's in the convo:

a studio manager: -- at one point, I had a person who would help answer emails, phone calls and schedule things - eventually she was going to do sales as well... initially it was for trade (new mom) and then for money...we never got that far, unfortunately..

but then a photographer I consider quite successful said -why would you trust your initial meeting with a client to another person? the client is calling for you and want to reach you - not some assistant'

thoughts?

It has to be an assistant that knows your work process, your portfolios and at least has been helping you setups during shoots and see how the work flows. Understanding the basic of photography is a must. With your body of work all out on the table, there really isn't much more to explain. The client should know what to expect during shoot time and results.

GM Photography wrote:
There are very few professions that don't involve interacting with other people in some way, and whether they are clients, co-workers, bosses, etc., you will find some that are unpleasant.  If not photography, then what?

There are people in life who are "not happy...unless they are unhappy"...and they usually want to share their misery with you. You have to make a conscious decision to not allow their "tragedy/drama" into your own bubble. You will meet folks that you will NEVER please, or who won't like you. That is on them.

I have found the numbers are actually pretty low, percentage-wise. Most people have a sense of humour, if you dig for it.

Julia Gerace wrote:
Ok -- I've been on this forum probably since I started photography or close to it...

I've been in business about 7 or 8 years - it's slow but steady growing and I love what I do..

The problem is that I don't love people.

I love creatiing images for people, I love having people in my studio.. but I just don't like dealing with the bs that you get from some people before you even meet them or the bs you get from them afterwards... 

Have any of you closed your doors because it's probably not the business, it's you?

Try to stay in business, if not for you, then for ME! :-)

Every time I start getting a swelled head, I look around Model Mayhem for top notch ports like yours, and it snaps me right back to reality. I don't get depressed, but it makes me try harder, be more daring and creative, and try to add upon my technical skills.

My goal is to be on par with some of the greats. If it weren't for them, nothing would push me as hard.

Julia Gerace wrote:
Oddly enough this doesn't have to do with MM or models....it's more actual people that are just so rude, so challengingly stupid sometimes - I have hard time kissing up - always have, it's a major fault...

And that's why I decided never to go into any front facing service industry and even think about photography beyond a hobby. I don't tolerate fools well at all.

May I suggest therapy of some sort? Not being sarcastic. If you are unhappy then you have the choice to make changes. You are obviously skilled so you won't go hungry if you "quit" or even scale back and find a direction/genre/business model that makes you "happy" or at least is satisfying and does not give you such angst. I was in your place and was only forced out by being laid off after the venture capital ran out. Once I was out of there and got into the job I am in now (and therapy) was I able to see how really messed up the situation was. My $0.02

Julia Gerace wrote:
Ok -- I've been on this forum probably since I started photography or close to it...

I've been in business about 7 or 8 years - it's slow but steady growing and I love what I do..

The problem is that I don't love people.

I love creatiing images for people, I love having people in my studio.. but I just don't like dealing with the bs that you get from some people before you even meet them or the bs you get from them afterwards... 

Have any of you closed your doors because it's probably not the business, it's you?

It takes a lot to keep a business going. The least of which is being able to take great shots.   

I've been in business for over 20 years and the first 5 or 6 of it, was dealing with a lot of jerky clients.   That has tapered off and I rarely encounter them anymore. 

Running a business is not unlike a maintaining a marriage. It depends if you feel the rewards are worth the effort..   

For me the answer is yes for both.. I've been married for over 20 years too....

EDIT: Let me add that it might not be totally You...  There are tons of jerks out there.  For me, specializing in commercial work has been a great way to weed out the uneducated masses.  I'm dealing with professionals and we typically get along great.

Julia Gerace wrote:

I don't have the money to do that, though I sure wish I could...


one idea is to only take clients with personal recommendations - I can downsize the overhead of the studio with some changes and then narrow down the clientele to be more selective.... there would definitely be some cache to that too...

If the business really is viable and you have a solid business pan, you should be able to apply for a loan to cover 6 months or a year of an office manager.  This person can be paid a reasonable salary and then an incentive if they can increase business enough during the loan term to not only cover their salary and benefits but also make you a bit of a profit on them, you can keep them and then offer a longer term incentive on business they bring in above previous year's income.

Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
Get some professional help . . . . you are not the only person in business that has problems dealing with people. There are professionals out there that can teach you some techniques and give you perspectives on things that will make a difference.

KM

Ken's quote kind of gave me an idea, and please, hear me out before you all start warming up the tar.  Many people have said to get a studio manager, but one of the drawbacks is that it's a cost that you don't feel you can afford right now.

But, as Ken said, you're not the only person in business that has this problem.

So, have you thought about ending your lease, finding a larger studio, and cosigning the lease with another photographer?  Then, the you can split the cost of a studio manager between the two of you, you can each retain your own clients (if you want), and your studio manager can deal with more of the paperwork aspect, leaving both of you to shooting more photographs!

If it turns out well and business becomes too much for one manager, you can look at hiring more office staff, but that would mean that obviously the income you're generating has increased, too, so you're still ahead.  Plus, as more of a "photo center", the possibility exists of expanding the business to include retail sales of picture frames, matting, and other photo related stuff.  That way, even when there aren't shoots booked, there is still some income.  Again, that would be the domain of office staff, so you wouldn't have to do the customer contact aspect of that, either.  Just a thought...

Okay, let the tar and feathering commence.

KevinMcGowanPhotography wrote:

It takes a lot to keep a business going. The least of which is being able to take great shots.   

I've been in business for over 20 years and the first 5 or 6 of it, was dealing with a lot of jerky clients.   That has tapered off and I rarely encounter them anymore. 

Running a business is not unlike a maintaining a marriage. It depends if you feel the rewards are worth the effort..   

For me the answer is yes for both.. I've been married for over 20 years too....

EDIT: Let me add that it might not be totally You...  There are tons of jerks out there.  For me, specializing in commercial work has been a great way to weed out the uneducated masses.  I'm dealing with professionals and we typically get along great.

This is very sound advice and dead on.
I operated a business for over 45 years and when I switched it from dealing constantly with "happy homeowners" to strictly commercial accounts, and professionals, the profit margin went through the roof.
Kevin is right, it is just like maintaining a marriage, just smile and bear whatever they're unhappy with at the time, I've been doing that for 551/2 years also, and it works.

Smedley Whiplash wrote:
The worst clients are the folks with very low incomes (can't connect value of time or money), and the one's like Donald Trump, who think their shit don't stink (they perceive themselves as infinitely more valuable then anyone else).

I'd argue the worst to deal with (drama-wise) is the pretty female who was a) told by some guy in the club that she "should be a model" or b) watches every episode of ANTM.

Julia Gerace wrote:

I love everyone when we're shooting.....

what I don't love to use a MM example is agreeing with a designer that we're picking the 10 best shots from the session and then after the session they demand all the hi-res images because now they do all their own editing - this has happened twice to me and once when the same designer was working with a friend of mine (another photographer) she didn't demand a disk from her at all...

so, yes, I loved the model, I loved what I was shooting, I was very appreciative to be doing what I love doing.. however, changing the agreement afterwards? not cool...

no. Udo, I think you have me wrong on this one.... I do care, very deeply about what I do and I love when I'm working - it's the extraneous bs that I find so tedious...

Okay... I also visited your port... and remember now closer... you are a really great and talented photographer with an amazing portfolio!

What I would advise you is to get a business manager or assistant that deals with all of those things you don't want to deal with and keep on creating your art how you want it...

Anyway... got to run!

Later

udor

Michael Pandolfo wrote:

I'd argue the worst to deal with (drama-wise) is the pretty female who was a) told by some guy in the club that she "should be a model" or b) watches every episode of ANTM.

As long as they show up, that wouldn't bother me, unless they insist on that dumb-looking suck-in-the-cheeks-while-twisting-your-arms-backwards look. 

I'd rather have an over- zealous weirdo client then a no-show flake.

Julia Gerace wrote:
but then a photographer I consider quite successful said -why would you trust your initial meeting with a client to another person? the client is calling for you and want to reach you - not some assistant'

thoughts?

There is the problem. You don't want to do an initial meeting. You want an initial call or email.  Not all people are the same, nor can they be treated the same. Some like to have their hands helod throughout their entire lives, others jump headfirst into anything. Having a policy that does not allow for people to meet you in person before booking will just scare some people off. If you want that policy, accept that there are people who will not like it and not hire you.

There are people who will go to Newegg.com and buy the best rated tv set for the best price they can find, having never seen its picture. And they are ok with it. There are others who will go to every retail store in town and stand in front of every tv available in the size they want until they find the one they think has the best picture. There is nothing wrong with either of those buyers nor is there anything wrong with either retailer. Newegg knows it will never get the "look, touch, feel" buyer and BestBuy knows it probably wont get the Newegg buyer.

Whatever you decide has to make you happy. If you dont want to meet or deal with people who wont book a session, fine.  Just dont be upset when they dont want to book.

Rebel Photo wrote:
I think at this point, and the way this site has degraded, non-association with MM is a smart business move. With social Networking in a boom, you're far better off. Not to mention the stigma this site has accrued.

...but, still you lurk...Your actions and your words are not in sync.

P O T T S wrote:

There is the problem. You don't want to do an initial meeting. You want an initial call or email.  Not all people are the same, nor can they be treated the same. Some like to have their hands helod throughout their entire lives, others jump headfirst into anything. Having a policy that does not allow for people to meet you in person before booking will just scare some people off. If you want that policy, accept that there are people who will not like it and not hire you.

There are people who will go to Newegg.com and buy the best rated tv set for the best price they can find, having never seen its picture. And they are ok with it. There are others who will go to every retail store in town and stand in front of every tv available in the size they want until they find the one they think has the best picture. There is nothing wrong with either of those buyers nor is there anything wrong with either retailer. Newegg knows it will never get the "look, touch, feel" buyer and BestBuy knows it probably wont get the Newegg buyer.

Whatever you decide has to make you happy. If you dont want to meet or deal with people who wont book a session, fine.  Just dont be upset when they dont want to book.

+1

If it is when you bend your policies to suit *potential* clients that causes you all of the stress then just stop doing that.  Every business has to understand its target customers and competitive advantages they bring to that market segment. 

As others have said, you could hire someone else to deal with people's desire to have their hands held and meet etc. or you could just develop a business model targeted at a clientele that doesn't require/desire that and refer those that do require it to another photographer you know that offers that service.

Julia Gerace wrote:
Ok -- I've been on this forum probably since I started photography or close to it...

I've been in business about 7 or 8 years - it's slow but steady growing and I love what I do..

The problem is that I don't love people.

I love creatiing images for people, I love having people in my studio.. but I just don't like dealing with the bs that you get from some people before you even meet them or the bs you get from them afterwards... 

Have any of you closed your doors because it's probably not the business, it's you?

Here's what works for me: Your experience has led you to be able to identify "high maintainence" clients by their conduct. Because I don't want that type of client (no resonable requests are refused, however), I tell them I don't think I can provide what they want. Then (this is important), I refer them to a competitor.
Let them hold hands while you focus on profitable clients.

Julia Gerace wrote:
Ok -- I've been on this forum probably since I started photography or close to it...

I've been in business about 7 or 8 years - it's slow but steady growing and I love what I do..

The problem is that I don't love people.

I love creatiing images for people, I love having people in my studio.. but I just don't like dealing with the bs that you get from some people before you even meet them or the bs you get from them afterwards... 

Have any of you closed your doors because it's probably not the business, it's you?

I guarantee you that working for a boss is worse. If you are somehow more sensitive than most people, you're better off working for yourself.

If you've got a solid business hire someone or get an intern to handle communication.

Julia Gerace wrote:
Oddly enough this doesn't have to do with MM or models....it's more actual people that are just so rude, so challengingly stupid sometimes - I have hard time kissing up - always have, it's a major fault...

the problem you cite is normal and present in any business/career that requires contact and interaction with the public. if this feeling occurred over a period of time, it's a accumulation of frustration that you have not been able to dismiss and diffuse. If you have had these feelings since you began, then it may be a part of your character. take a break.......if you miss photography, then you might be able to reboot. If you are nothing but relieved, move on. I personally know 2 people that cannot work with other people. they have found jobs that allow them to work in private, self controlled environments. they process enormous levels of work....alone. if someone interrupts them, they are angry the rest of the day.
another choice might be counseling? talk it out????? see what happens?
best wishes in whatever path you take.

Julia Gerace wrote:
dp

My brother hates people, he has become a highly successful long haul truck driver.

Before that, he was in his own back yard and the cops sent a police dog after him.  He bit the dog, got arrested and sent to anger management. 
He did try to tell the judge about his theory and understanding of Alpha males, but the judge was a female.

My point is, try therapy.  If it doesn't work maybe they can give you some pointers on a new career.

T Urban Photography wrote:
Is there any chance you can hire someone to deal with the customer service aspect of your business?  Lots of the more successful studios do that.

+1