Photographer
Phoenix Designz
Posts: 20
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, US
I know this has been posted numerous times before, but the flaking issue really has me ready to quit. Some have mentioned never having a flake while others say it is the nature of tf shoots. Today really brought things to a head with me as I talked to the model on the phone. She stated she is not a flake and would never not show for a shoot. Well I gave her two confirmation calls last week. She did not respond to either, I sent her a message on Thursday which she replied to on Friday stating "yep I'll be there tomorrow". Our shoot was scheduled yesterday at a local park which I had to drive too, she never showed and didn't answer her phone. I've had great tf shoots and have always shot numerous times with those models. People have mentioned perfecting your vetting process but I can not find any information on what that process should be. Can anyone help with an effective vetting process. As it stands right now I have had enough and I'm about ready to give this up. Thanks in advance for any help.
Photographer
PashaPhoto
Posts: 9726
Brooklyn, New York, US
at some point this will become almost an instinct, and your "flake radar" will start spotting them a little better... as a rule, the more they talk about how reliable they are, the less likely they are to show 
Photographer
Marin Photo NYC
Posts: 7348
New York, New York, US
It gets better, just hang in there. I still get flaked on every now and again, it happens. I don't really believe that when people say no one has ever flaked on them. I think that's a load a crap but I wasn't there....  Maybe their idea of a flake is different? I do know for myself, when my shots improved I got fewer flakes. So, not to critique you or anyone for that matter. Make sure whatever you are doing is "kick ass'! That will cut down the flakes but it's not a promise! LOL
Photographer
Nightmare_Photography
Posts: 3
Brick, New Jersey, US
i get flakes all the time more so because i manly shoot people that are new to the industry. i find it easier to pick out flakes buy how often they talk to you and comunicate kinda like a stike system if they dont answer your calls or return them but they manage to message you thats a problem. i normally set a shoot in the late morning to late evening area in order to call the subject or subjects to verify meeting location, time, and if they can make it that way i can always set another shoot so i dont waiste a good day
hope that helps
ps you do great work dont quit over something like this its their lose
Photographer
zaxpix
Posts: 1988
New Brunswick, New Jersey, US
Damien Design wrote:
...She stated she is not a flake and would never not show for a shoot. Well I gave her two confirmation calls last week. She did not respond to either, I sent her a message on Thursday which she replied to on Friday stating "yep I'll be there tomorrow"... "The Song Of The Sirens."
Damien Design wrote:
People have mentioned perfecting your vetting process but I can not find any information on what that process should be. There is no perfect process that will guarantee that these wannabes will show up at your door. Anyone who tells you that they've never had a flake is more than likely lying like a rug.
Damien Design wrote:
Can anyone help with an effective vetting process. You might think about dropping this from your profile;
...FLAKES
This is something I wish I didn't even have to write. But unfortunately there are a lot of these on MM. If we agree to a paid or TF shoot and you cancel for ANY reason, I will then require a $50 deposit at the time we reschedule. The deposit will be refunded at the shoot. The reasoning behind this, is if you had a true emergency then you would still show up for a rescheduled shoot. You'd only be out the $50 for a week or two before the shoot. As I said I hate doing this and I am not trying to be an ass....
...and this...
...FRIEND REQUESTS
I am more than happy to accept your friend request. But please,if you are a flake who has no intentions of modeling do not bother...
A wee bit confrontational.
Now the models (and everyone else, for that matter) know that you have a flake problem. If the other models are flaking on you then why shouldn't she? You're used to it. Never let them see you sweat. Never mention flaking in your profile.
Damien Design wrote:
As it stands right now I have had enough and I'm about ready to give this up. Thanks in advance for any help. Hang in there, dude. Only the strong survive.
Z.
Photographer
Jim McSmith
Posts: 794
Edinburgh, Scotland, United Kingdom
PashaPhoto wrote:
at some point this will become almost an instinct, and your "flake radar" will start spotting them a little better...
as a rule, the more they talk about how reliable they are, the less likely they are to show I think you have a point there. I made a booking a few weeks ago with a model on here in the UK, who was travelling to my area for a few arranged shoots, it was booked weeks in advance and the day before she cancels for the usual sick relative excuse. Her profile suggests reliability and professionalism. I had went to a lot of effort in prop preparation for that shoot and planning by doing a location recce. All for nothing!
Photographer
Know Idea
Posts: 3000
Los Angeles, California, US
PashaPhoto wrote:
.
as a rule, the more they talk about how reliable they are, the less likely they are to show So true!!
*patiently awaits the "I've never had a flake" crowd.*
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 23575
Salem, Oregon, US
network with local photographers and then you can message them about a model you are considering. if they are flaky, that will start to get around. i've avoided models that way. it's funny. i can get models to drive here 90 miles for trade shoots (or swing by on their journey from another state and even country) but sometimes get blown off by local models. just how it goes i guess. if you find a reliable model do repeat shoots with them and ask them if they have any friends who'd like to model (they can bring them along). sometimes just offering gas money can be enough to help get them to show up. and i've had 100% success paying traveling models. consider other sources such as omp and CL. i got one model at costco (she sold me my cellphone). some do well at meetup.com events and shootouts and workshops. you can meet some models to shoot in the future.
Photographer
DMesser Photography
Posts: 1288
Oceanside, California, US
Most of us get flakes. It is something you get used to especially when you shoot newbies for TF. But, I also had a flake when I was paying a model $100 for a partially nude shoot. It happens and it happens both ways. You just learn to live with it or you get out of the business.
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 21526
Chicago, Illinois, US
I don't see where you checked her references. Just kidding. Its a favourite line by one of our members. A few tips. Have models confirm with you. Don't call them. No call a few hours before a session. No shoot. Remove the comments about Flakes and friends. I see you've worked with a lot of MM models. That's a good thing. Focus on your success and not failure. Understand that unless you are paying your models some may decide last minute photos alone aren't worth modelling. Heck even when you pay it happens. Don't sweat it. Like another poster mentioned. I've had model drive hours to shoot. Others flake or cancel and live minutes away.
A few more tips. How often does the model update? If she hasn't in months or years odds are she may not be shooting much and may flake. When you speak to her does she seem serious or can't wait to get you off the phone. Learn to develop a flake meter. Most of all don't make or take what others do personally. Its not about you.
Photographer
imcFOTO
Posts: 581
Bothell, Washington, US
I find the probability of someone flaking rises with the urgency that I had booking a slot. Maybe my filter mechanism fails me when it's late Friday and I'm still trying to get a shoot in for the weekend.
But even with the best screening, communication - they can still flake. I've had someone who spent weeks emailing ideas for the shoot over several weeks - we had a great dialogue going and she still cancelled the night before.
One thing I will say is that any model I've actually met prior to the shoot - i.e. for a chat over coffee, has never cancelled. Maybe once you're a 'real person' that they chatted with, they feel a little more committed?
I do now have a couple of models that I've shot with multiple times who are often available for a fill-in at short notice. But that doesn't always work out.
Clothing Designer
GRMACK
Posts: 5436
Bakersfield, California, US
ontherocks wrote:
... and i've had 100% success paying traveling models. Ditto that. Traveler's are a more reliable breed since they fill their schedules up based on their travel itinerary as well as subsequent flights, trains, buses, etc. Some effort on their part scheduling it all seems to help them show up.
However, not so much the ones who post in "Travel" as though they are "Traveling models," but they also live in the same city they are "Traveling" too? (e.g. "New model traveling to LA," but they already live there?!?).
Fwiw, I've had agency talent flake as well. Try one on a Saturday when the agency is closed with a no-show or flake both. Luckily, they'll drop off their booker's recommended list soon, but their photo may remain in their site a long time as it looks good for them to have it there. I've gotten the alternate "steering direction" from bookers at times like they know who I've picked likely won't show up.
Someone needs to design and patent a Flakeometer. 
Photographer
Phoenix Designz
Posts: 20
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, US
Thanks for the advice everyone. I have updated my profile taking out the "flakes" section, etc. I also have had a 100% success rate with traveling models. Some of them I paid though in the beginning. I do always offer gas money for any tf shoots. I do a pre shoot phone conversation and have met a couple of models for coffee to discuss the shoot. I do agree with the people who say you almost start to feel out the flakes. There's little hints they drop and it always seems to follow a certain pattern. Again thanks for all the advice.
Photographer
Eleven 11 Photography
Posts: 409
Auburn, Alabama, US
It's the nature of the beast. It's going to happen sometimes. Hell I've had one model cancel when she was paying me and be angry that the nonrefundable deposit that was mentioned in her contract was actually not refundable sigh.
You just keep doing good work, knocking down good shots. I just concentrate on trying to get the next shot and hope that everything else takes care of itself.
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 26342
Portland, Oregon, US
Damien Design wrote:
People have mentioned perfecting your vetting process but I can not find any information on what that process should be. Can anyone help with an effective vetting process. As it stands right now I have had enough and I'm about ready to give this up. Thanks in advance for any help. Yes, if you want to work with reliable people, you need to filter out the unreliable ones. Also, if I tell you, "I am not a liar", I may be telling you the truth, but I may be lying to you right away. Nobody is going to tell you that they are not reliable, so why bother to ask?
My "process" is to prefer to work with experienced models, and I check model's references before I initiate a conversation with her. I have worked hard to build a little supportive photographic community, and if I have doubts, I ask the community (photographers & models) if they have any feedback on the candidate model. Since they know & trust me, they are more likely to respond and to be honest. More -- we share recommendations within our community -- 2 of the last 3 models I've worked with were recommended to me by the community (and not coincidentally, the community recommended me to the models, too).
Also, to be frank, if a model burns one of us, she burns all of us, and she soon finds her modeling prospects drying up somewhat.
My advice: never devote a lot of time or expense or effort on a first sitting with a new-to-you model. Make the first sitting casual, with the objective of getting acquainted.
I believe that there were a lot of more experienced & skilled people who helped me out when I first got started, and that I owe them a karmic debt that can only be paid back by paying it forward. So, maybe 10% - 15% of my sittings are with new talent. So far, so good.
I also find it sadly easy to treat models with more respect than they expect. If you are constantly asking for confirmation, that's one way of you communicating to the model that you don't trust her. That's not a good thing. If you ask for a deposit for a TF* session, you are again saying you don't trust her. If you insist on a pre-shoot meeting, you are again saying you don't trust her.
One might claim that building a supportive local community is too much work, and I'm fine with that, but if a person doesn't take steps to filter out unreliable people, I feel they don't have a right to complain -- it should surprise no one that there are reliable & unreliable people on MM, and if they can't be bothered to filter out the unreliable ones, well, I won't be sympathetic.
Now, you can look at a portfolio & glean a little information. Has she worked with good, experienced photographers multiple times? Has she worked with a large number of different photographers? Has she produced a good variety of work?
It also helps if you can produce unique images that models want. If you produce images that are similar to the images she already has, she may be less motivated.
I'm not a fan of casting calls, because you get too random responses. I prefer using the "browse" menu item & target models who are most suitable to the project, and models prefer to be approached than to raise their hands & hope to hear back.
I'm also not a fan of TF* arrangements -- I got no problem if two people agree to a TF* session, but they are just not for me. I get voluntary donations from my web site, and that's enough to pay models (and everything else for my photographic hobby).
Many photographers claim "I can't afford to pay models". I nod & say okay, but in my head, I scoff. I suggest that every year, you count up how much all your equipment & software & ISP & web host, etc. cost and devote 5% of that figure to modeling fees. If you pay models, you don't have to worry about delivering images by a certain time, you don't have to have "model wants RAW images" arguments, you get to work on your own concepts, etc. Find a way to pay models; after all, you get to keep the copyrights.
Good luck.
Photographer
Jeff Kew Photography
Posts: 14
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
I had 2 TF shoots cancel today. First one emailed last night, 2nd one texted this morning. At least I was able to cancel the mua's. Sometimes it just happens. I've rescheduled with cancellations and gotten phenomenal results. Sometimes you just need to be flexible.
It's just the nature of the biz. Even models who are hired sometimes are no shows or cancel last minute. Photographers do it to. Take it in stride.
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 21526
Chicago, Illinois, US
A member has suggested paying models. Unlike he and others I lack the resources to pay to practice. Unless their is a way to recoup my money its money I can't get back. That member has a website which affords him that opportunity. He mentions what we may spend on other things like software, etc. I use Opensource or free programs and old DLSR. If you can pay then that may be a way to get more models and lessen flakes. A well known model member here has great references and told us all that as she talked about why we should pay her and models like her. That is until two shooters told us in that thread she flaked on them and kept their deposits.
Maybe some of you want to race around and ask others about what they thought of a model. Was she on time? Was she good too work with? Does she practice good hygiene. Personally, I ask that models called to confirm our shoot. I call too confirm other appointments because things happen. Its not about not trusting them. I don't know them. I don't belong to a Scooby-do group I can ask about models they may not know either. I accept that sometimes models will flake. The OP has worked with lots of members so he seems too be doing well.
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 26342
Portland, Oregon, US
Tony Lawrence wrote:
A member has suggested paying models. Unlike he and others I lack the resources to pay to practice. Unless their is a way to recoup my money its money I can't get back. That member has a website which affords him that opportunity. He mentions what we may spend on other things like software, etc. I use Opensource or free programs and old DLSR. If you can pay then that may be a way to get more models and lessen flakes. Yup -- an old argument between me & Tony. I'll point out that I posted additional suggestions to try.
Me? 2 flakes in nearly 20 years. If you are interested, you can ask Tony his flake ratio.
Tony Lawrence wrote:
Maybe some of you want to race around and ask others about what they thought of a model. Was she on time? Was she good too work with? Does she practice good hygiene. Personally, I ask that models called to confirm our shoot. I call too confirm other appointments because things happen. Its not about not trusting them. I don't know them. I don't belong to a Scooby-do group I can ask about models they may not know either. I accept that sometimes models will flake. My point is the effort to check references is often less than the effort to start & monitor yet another flake thread.
I also have no problem when models flake on other photographers. If the photographers accept that, all is good. If they don't like that, they should try something different. If a photographer refuses to try anything different, that's his choice, but I'll consider him foolish if he thinks he'll get improved results by doing the same thing over & over. I further state that if a photographer refuses to protect themselves from unreliable people, they have only themselves to blame.
Saying derogatory things, like calling a supportive local community a "Scooby-do group" is not appropriate for an otherwise productive debate.
Photographer
Rik Austin
Posts: 12164
Austin, Texas, US
Just like in gardening you want to weed early. The key is recognizing them. Then either don't bother with them or insist on a pre-shoot meet if your not sure. Still no guarantees but it dropped my flake rate from 30% to about 5%. I've shot about 150 models so the numbers are approaching statistically significant.
First, this is not model bashing. These aren't models, they're Flakes. HUGE difference. Flaking is also not strictly the providence of models. Photographers flake too, as do all the other categories.
Rik's FEW System: Flake Early Warning Signs:
1. Newbie that wants "to try this modeling stuff cause everyone tells me I ought to be a model."
2. Cell pics in portfolio or if what real pictures they have are too small to really examine.
3. Newbie with no experience that is "looking for paid jobs only."
4. List a mySpace page (though a few "real" models do this).
5. Wants to exchange multiple emails without pinning down a date.
6. Won't switch to a real email address and send a cell phone number after several exchanges on MM. This is 100% accurate in my experience. Your mileage my vary.
7. Has sluggo ("manager").
8. No references. This is soft since most new models or photographers won't have shoot with many others. Sure they won't list the ones they've flaked on but the more they have worked with the better.
9. If their stated stats don't match the pictures.
10. If their profile is less than 4 lines.
11. If their profile is all about what they love in life.
12. If their profile has the word "no" more than once.
13. If anything in their profile is in caps.
14. They say, "TFP only with (pick one: exceptional, amazing, fantastic or published) photographers and their portfolio isn't one of the above words.
15. Says in their profile if they can't bring her escort she won't come. 10 billion threads on escorts but points to remember: 1) that's one more person to flake and kill the shoot 2) so much interference at the shoot that its a waste of time 3) depends on who the escort is - very important 4) should always be discussed first.
If they say "escort the first time or if the photographer doesn't have 3-5 references" and the model actually has experience, my experience has been good.
16. If they are from your area but won't set up a pre-shoot meet. Not an absolute either way. My favorite model was too busy (and I think too trusting) and I almost didn't shoot with her. Also I have had others flake after good pre-shoot meets.
17. Paying does not guarantee they will not flake. It may cut the flake rate down but my experience has been mixed.
18. The more a potential model gushes over your portfolio the less likely they are to show up. Shows a certain immaturity, the starry-eyed adolescent.
19. If a model approaches you first, for some reason unknown to me, the flake risk goes up.
20. Age is inversely proportional to flaking. I find this particularly true with 18 and 19 year olds. Seems to start dropping off at 20.
Photographer
Mark Salo
Posts: 11724
Olney, Maryland, US
Damien Design wrote:
Our shoot was scheduled yesterday at a local park... At least you didn't pay to rent a studio.
Photographer
Eric Costley
Posts: 144
Temple Hills, Maryland, US
I thought i was over flakes till like a month ago, went a whole year and a half w/o one, then BAM...
It happens, i pretty much can tell who is real or not, this time i guess i was wrong
Photographer
Chuckarelei
Posts: 11271
Seattle, Washington, US
Flake is just part of dealing with interweb wannabe models. There is no fool proof vetting system. Just learn and live with it.
If you are going to pay for your models, deal with reputable agencies. 90+% flake free. There is a reason why they are in agencies where many are not. Cuz you can only flake once with reputable agencies.
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 26342
Portland, Oregon, US
Interesting list. Your mileage may vary. Here are my opinions on these items (embedded). Rik Austin wrote:
Rik's FEW System: Flake Early Warning Signs:
1. Newbie that wants "to try this modeling stuff cause everyone tells me I ought to be a model." I disagree -- newbies can sometimes be reliable.
2. Cell pics in portfolio or if what real pictures they have are too small to really examine. I disagree -- I like cell phone images, and the skill of the photographer does not necessarily mean that the model is unreliable.
3. Newbie with no experience that is "looking for paid jobs only." I disagree -- everyone can ask for whatever compensation he/she wants; you don't have to accept their terms.
4. List a mySpace page (though a few "real" models do this). Dunno -- I'm definitely behind the times with regards to all social media; I'm too paranoid about privacy.
5. Wants to exchange multiple emails without pinning down a date. It depends -- I don't tend to select models based on their verbal communication skills.
6. Won't switch to a real email address and send a cell phone number after several exchanges on MM. This is 100% accurate in my experience. Your mileage my vary. I semi-agree -- I hate MM mail, but I don't need a cell phone number -- having her phone number doesn't guarantee that she'll answer her phone. I note, I usually don't have the personal cell phone number of the plumber or electrician who is coming to my house.
7. Has sluggo ("manager"). I mostly agree -- some managers help very young models out, but many just get in the way.
8. No references. This is soft since most new models or photographers won't have shoot with many others. Sure they won't list the ones they've flaked on but the more they have worked with the better. I semi-disagree -- I don't ask models for their references; I just ask the local folks I know -- if that fails, I can ask the people referenced in her portfolio and/or people local to the model that I may know. If that fails, I just realize I'm taking a chance & plan accordingly (though admittedly if I can't check references, I usually pass).
9. If their stated stats don't match the pictures. Dunno -- people change.
10. If their profile is less than 4 lines. I disagree -- I actually dislike long profiles & appreciate people who are terse. I rely more on references than profile statements.
11. If their profile is all about what they love in life. Dunno -- I agree that non-relevant information is a waste of time & bandwidth, but then again, I don't select models based on their verbal communication skills.
12. If their profile has the word "no" more than once. I semi-agree -- I believe that one's profile is one's best chance to make a good first impression, and a negative profile fails to do that, but then again, I don't select models based on their verbal communication skills.
13. If anything in their profile is in caps. I disagree -- I can't believe that that is an indication of reliability.
14. They say, "TFP only with (pick one: exceptional, amazing, fantastic or published) photographers and their portfolio isn't one of the above words. I disagree -- people can ask for whatever compensation they want; the quality of the images in their portfolio is not an indication of reliability.
15. Says in their profile if they can't bring her escort she won't come. 10 billion threads on escorts but points to remember: 1) that's one more person to flake and kill the shoot 2) so much interference at the shoot that its a waste of time 3) depends on who the escort is - very important 4) should always be discussed first. If they say "escort the first time or if the photographer doesn't have 3-5 references" and the model actually has experience, my experience has been good. I semi-disagree -- again, people can ask for whatever conditions they want, and in a couple of cases, it was the escort that prevented the model from flaking.
16. If they are from your area but won't set up a pre-shoot meet. Not an absolute either way. My favorite model was too busy (and I think too trusting) and I almost didn't shoot with her. Also I have had others flake after good pre-shoot meets. I disagree -- I consider all sessions with a new-to-me model to be a "get acquainted" session -- therefore the pre-shoot meeting is just one way to tell the model that you don't trust her. I would find it a waste of time.
17. Paying does not guarantee they will not flake. It may cut the flake rate down but my experience has been mixed. I agree -- however, models who rely on modeling for their income will soon find their income opportunities drying up if she flakes a couple of times. We photographers (at least around here) talk with each other.
18. The more a potential model gushes over your portfolio the less likely they are to show up. Shows a certain immaturity, the starry-eyed adolescent. Dunno -- models never gush over my portfolio.
19. If a model approaches you first, for some reason unknown to me, the flake risk goes up. Never in my experience.
20. Age is inversely proportional to flaking. I find this particularly true with 18 and 19 year olds. Seems to start dropping off at 20. Dunno -- I'd need more flakes before I could make a correlation.
Photographer
Culturally Destitute
Posts: 551
Seattle, Washington, US
Know Idea wrote:
*patiently awaits the "I've never had a flake" crowd.* I've been shooting dozens of models for years, mostly t/f basis and have never had a flake.
Happy now?
Seriously though, I look back at the few that have flaked on me and I cannot for the life of me find any commonality or pattern.
Even years into this , I'll be driving to a location thinking, this one is going to flake, I just know it, and there she is, on time ready to go. Then I'll have one that I think is going to be there no doubt in my mind, and she's a no call/no show and never see or hear from her again.
Thankfully though, it really doesn't happen often. Just something to take in stride and move on.
Photographer
StevieSteve
Posts: 24
Madison, Wisconsin, US
Just chalk it up to the lack of mannerisms & courtesy with this younger generation. It's no different than dating. One girl I met and we talked on the phone and we agreed to meet for a drink an hour later, and guess what, no show. Same with modeling today. I've had a couple girls interested in a shoot, but their jealous boyfriends didn't want them to. Some girls let these guys control their lives too. Don't take it personal when they flake. If they were really interested, they would be there in the first place or would have called to reschedule another time if they couldn't make it.
Model
Kaela Kino
Posts: 77
Austin, Texas, US
PashaPhoto wrote:
as a rule, the more they talk about how reliable they are, the less likely they are to show Hmmm, should I not then describe myself in my profile as reliable? I say this because I very much value my own time as well as the photographers'. I have been flaked on - yes, by a photographer! - for an outdoor shoot as well and it is not fun, so reliability is a very important trait to me.
Photographer
Miss Photog
Posts: 288
VALLEY VILLAGE, California, US
PashaPhoto wrote:
as a rule, the more they talk about how reliable they are, the less likely they are to show I don't agree with that at all.
As a model I tell photographers that I am professional, not a flake and will never be a no-show. And I have NEVER flaked. even if I am running 5 min late, I will call.
As far as being a photographer, I have been lucky enough [knock on wood] to not have anyone no show/no call me. I have had a couple models flake the night before, but luckily I have been able to find a reliable model to fill-in since I almost always have hair/mu. Unfortunately, flakiness is kind of just one of those things that we all have to deal with in this industry and those models give us professional ones a bad name. try not to let one model (or even a few) ruin it for you.
Photographer
Bare Essential Photos
Posts: 3605
Upland, California, US
To Damien Design -- Damien Design wrote:
I know this has been posted numerous times before, but the flaking issue really has me ready to quit. Some have mentioned never having a flake while others say it is the nature of tf shoots. Today really brought things to a head with me as I talked to the model on the phone. She stated she is not a flake and would never not show for a shoot. Well I gave her two confirmation calls last week. She did not respond to either, I sent her a message on Thursday which she replied to on Friday stating "yep I'll be there tomorrow". Our shoot was scheduled yesterday at a local park which I had to drive too, she never showed and didn't answer her phone. I've had great tf shoots and have always shot numerous times with those models. People have mentioned perfecting your vetting process but I can not find any information on what that process should be. Can anyone help with an effective vetting process. As it stands right now I have had enough and I'm about ready to give this up. Thanks in advance for any help. First of all, you're not doing anything wrong. There's no secret to avoiding flakes. I just got flaked on a few hours ago. Any photographer who regularly uses MM to get models to shoot that says she/he haven''t been flaked on isn't being sincere. Unfortunately, there are some who like creating facades of themselves on web sites so that others will ask them for advice.
I used to rent a studio and pay 50% non-refundable deposits. After so many flakes, I was booted out. In a way it was a good thing. I now shoot at my house using the garage, living room, and backyard; you may want to take a look at some samples on my portfolio. Wouldn't be able to do that at a rented studio. I suggest that you consider doing the same, if possible. Also, scout around for a nearby area to do location shoots within 20 miles, so when a model does flake it won't create too much of a burden on gas and time. You may also want to look at group shoots here and on Meetup.com.
Wish you the best.
Photographer
David Gee
Posts: 22
Cincinnati, Ohio, US
I agree flaking seems at times to be epidemic. I've actually had a lot of luck posting Craigslist ads for a specific gig. I don't get a lot of responses, and usually inexperienced, but they show up and are co operative. Try to read between the lines in the profile. When she says I must charge these rates because I'm well known in the adult industry I guarantee she's a flake and/or is out there somewhere. I often try to provide an incentive just to show up. Gas money, a few TF in addition to pay can help as well, but looking at our society in general and then realizing models are a part of that group helps me understand the flakiness, but I try to avoid it as much as possible, too.
Photographer
PashaPhoto
Posts: 9726
Brooklyn, New York, US
Kayla Kino wrote:
Hmmm, should I not then describe myself in my profile as reliable? I say this because I very much value my own time as well as the photographers'. I have been flaked on - yes, by a photographer! - for an outdoor shoot as well and it is not fun, so reliability is a very important trait to me. it works different for everyone, but i personally think the words "i'm reliable" are completely unnecessary, and for me it's a bit of a red flag... not much, but still - red flag...
simply put, people who are reliable do not think of this attribute as something special... being reliable is not something that's thought of as a "plus", it's something that's thought of as absolutely "normal" for them, and kind of goes without mention...
besides, most people looking at portfolios don't automatically assume that the model they're looking at is unreliable, so there is no reason to plant that seed to begin with... it's kind of like meeting a stranger, shaking their hand and then going - don't worry, i don't have herpes... no one assumed that you did, but watch how fast they will pull that hand away now )))))
that's kind of my personal feelings on this, and i'm sure many will disagree... i did a few threads in critique where i reviewed dozens upon dozens of model portfolios, and i've noticed that the stronger models do not have the whole "i am reliable" thing on their profile... that, and my own experiences with models tend to reinforce my feelings
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 21526
Chicago, Illinois, US
Looknsee Photography wrote:
Tony Lawrence wrote:
A member has suggested paying models. Unlike he and others I lack the resources to pay to practice. Unless their is a way to recoup my money its money I can't get back. That member has a website which affords him that opportunity. He mentions what we may spend on other things like software, etc. I use Opensource or free programs and old DLSR. If you can pay then that may be a way to get more models and lessen flakes. Yup -- an old argument between me & Tony. I'll point out that I posted additional suggestions to try.
Me? 2 flakes in nearly 20 years. If you are interested, you can ask Tony his flake ratio.
My point is the effort to check references is often less than the effort to start & monitor yet another flake thread.
I also have no problem when models flake on other photographers. If the photographers accept that, all is good. If they don't like that, they should try something different. If a photographer refuses to try anything different, that's his choice, but I'll consider him foolish if he thinks he'll get improved results by doing the same thing over & over. I further state that if a photographer refuses to protect themselves from unreliable people, they have only themselves to blame.
Saying derogatory things, like calling a supportive local community a "Scooby-do group" is not appropriate for an otherwise productive debate. How can I make you NOT post on MM? See, I can't because I don't control you or what you say. Photographers have zero control over models. Sure you can ask about a model but just because she's been reliable with someone else has little bearing on your shoot. Many years ago a pro shooter who had worked with many models and had a decent reputation was convicted of killing a model. Was the model he murdered at fault for what he did? How could she have protected herself from this killer? Unreliable people get that way by being unreliable but how many people do they do it too before it becomes a problem. Say a model shows for eight out of ten sessions with various people. Is she reliable? What if you only hear from the eight she came for but not the last two.
Life and people don't come with guarantees or warning labels. You seem very cautious and seem to ask the peanut gallery their opinion on many subjects. Windows 8, investing , tablets, etc. I and many other people just go for things and are less cautious. That may mean we have some failures, flakes and problems. Your method may be the better one but I prefer to use my own best judgement. I accept the risk that a new model or even one who's been here a while may flake. Especially if she's not being paid. Its irritating but I don't start rant threads. The OP has expressed his feelings. I respect that as well yet he is not responsible for what that model did nor how you feel about what happened to him.
Photographer
Mortonovich II
Posts: 723
San Diego, California, US
As far as internet models go, only work with ones that have been recommended by someone you actually KNOW. That way, if they flake, you can still go kick your friends ass. 
Photographer
nyk fury
Posts: 2976
Port Townsend, Washington, US
Damien Design wrote:
I know this has been posted numerous times before, but...
...I'm about ready to give this up. Thanks in advance for any help. flakes are EVERYWHERE. might as well keep doing what you are doing.
Photographer
NG Photos
Posts: 243
Cleveland, Ohio, US
Chuckarelei wrote:
Flake is just part of dealing with interweb wannabe models. There is no fool proof vetting system. Just learn and live with it. +1
That or just go get some wings. Yummy.
Body Painter
Live Canvas Art
Posts: 44
Orlando, Florida, US
What bothered me more was people I gave the benefit of the doubt to, who then did it a second time..... SO- now I have a rule. If you flake on a trade shoot, I simply will not reschedule, period. It has been hard to stick to.... but I feel I am treating myself with more integrity by doing so.
Photographer
4point0
Posts: 687
Los Angeles, California, US
My MM flake deterrent: great, you're interested in shooting. Please call me at xxx-xxxx to discuss. Works like a charm.
Photographer
Llobet Photography
Posts: 4915
Fort Lauderdale, Florida, US
You need the handy dandy patented Flake-O-Meter. Guaranteed to detect flakiness by examining images and profiles for secret hidden flake signals. All yours for only four easy payments of $9.99 (plus shipping and handling, not available in AK or HI) Order NOW! Get yours while supplies last. Operators are standing by. Not making fun, really. We all go through this and it's extremely frustrating. I guess learning the signals is just a matter of time and experience. Keep trying and don't give up on account of flakes.
Photographer
Image Works Photography
Posts: 2890
Orlando, Florida, US
Had my fair share of flakes. I contacted them the day before to confirm and follow up the next day for one final check in. They vanished!!! When you get a model that says: I love your portfolio- I want to shoot with you! Its the devil in disguise 3:-)
Photographer
OG Foto
Posts: 226
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
I get flaked on a lot. At first I became angry and frustrated. Now, it's just part of the process. I even get flaked on by models I have shot with in the past or are my friends....go figure. Personally, I will never shoot a model in Vegas again. I am 2 for 12 with models there. Yeah, 2 models out of 12 who have shown up. Sorry your frustrated. We feel your pain. Never work with her again and move on to the next flake.....
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Maybe their idea of a flake is different? 
