Photographer
The Face Photography
Posts: 1549
Madrid, Madrid, Spain
IDiivil wrote:
3. They don't care about modeling and just use it as a way to get money. I can understand your point of view, and although the whole thing could be seen as the opinion of a model with an excesive self-esteem, I might agree. However, that point #3, and maybe some other, has something I strongly disapprove, and I don't think it is a good way of thinking: I don't know anybody who does not care about her job, and yet is able to do it well.
Photographer
Jerry Nemeth
Posts: 33355
Dearborn, Michigan, US
P I X I E wrote:
Attitude in the Model forum is also a factor. Yes!
If I don't like their attitude I won't work with them either.
Photographer
New Art Photo
Posts: 701
Los Angeles, California, US
Photographer
GER Photography
Posts: 8463
Imperial, California, US
c_h_r_i_s wrote:
1-13 works both ways.
14. Models that are too short. Ahh, but a model can never be too short for me, PIXIES RULE!!!:-))))))
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 30130
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
New Art Photo wrote:
From my perspective a good photo is 80% the skill and vision of the photographer and 20% the subject.
A good photographer can make almost anyone look good.
I think its a mistake for photographers to trust the judgement of moody young women-- no matter how beautiful they are. and I would say its about 50 - 50
and that a good model can make the average photographer look good
and I think that most young women are not that moody and know quite well what they want
Model
P I X I E
Posts: 35440
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
New Art Photo wrote:
From my perspective a good photo is 80% the skill and vision of the photographer and 20% the subject.
A good photographer can make almost anyone look good.
I think its a mistake for photographers to trust the judgement of moody young women-- no matter how beautiful they are. Lovely.
See that people? This is exactly what I mean by attitude in the Model forum.
Photographer
Fotografica Gregor
Posts: 4126
Alexandria, Virginia, US
One factor that is not mentioned and that I admit is kinda subtle but I do think it is a factor, is that the model may think that the image quality a photographer has to offer is just fine, and feel that what he or she proposes to shoot would be worthwhile, but not think that his image selections show an understanding of what she considers is most flattering to the model, or would feel would be flattering to her.
I do think that some models choose images that are flattering to them or perhaps they like one detail of the pose or expression, but are not terribly good images overall - and photographers sometimes like a shot for what it is *photographically* and are not as aware as they could or should be of what is flattering to the particular model.
I've made a consistent effort to understand why the models I work with like certain of the images we shoot - images that I may not have chosen to edit for my own use.
Model
P I X I E
Posts: 35440
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
GER Photography wrote:
Ahh, but a model can never be too short for me, PIXIES RULE!!!:-)))))) 
Photographer
PATAAZ
Posts: 160
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US
In a word, "Trade". There are way too many hobbyist photographers willing to cover costs and even pay a fee. A model can build her book and get paid doing it. Why would they trade?
Model
Nicole Nu
Posts: 3981
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 30130
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Latent Images wrote:
In a word, "Trade". There are way too many hobbyist photographers willing to cover costs and even pay a fee. A model can build her book and get paid doing it. Why would they trade? but the question is are these photographers good enough for the model to create a good book or does the model end up with a book of junk images
Photographer
Kevin Connery
Posts: 17824
El Segundo, California, US
IDiivil wrote:
Hi, everyone. I've been seeing a lot of "Why won't models trade with me?" threads the last couple days. Here's some information I've put together to hopefully clarify the situation and offer solutions for you guys. Very nicely done.
The second half needs to be brought to more photographers, though, and not that many (relative) read the model forum.
Model
Lynn Elizabeth
Posts: 1336
Palm Beach, Florida, US
c_h_r_i_s wrote:
14. Models that are too short. What you think is "too short" others might find perfect for their concept.
Photographer
SPRINGHEEL
Posts: 38224
Detroit, Michigan, US
Photographer
Trill Imagery
Posts: 126
Los Angeles, California, US
Great list...very helpful
Artist/Painter
MainePaintah
Posts: 1892
Saco, Maine, US
Wonderful and informative! Now if we could just get the knuckleheads (models, photographer, and artists)that don't read all the forums, to just READ THIS, the MM world would be a nicer place to find models or photographers to work with, but then the Forums might become boring, but it would be a nice trade off
Photographer
WIP
Posts: 15973
Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom
Lynn Elizabeth wrote:
What you think is "too short" others might find perfect for their concept. Less to retouch and they should be cheaper to hire by the inch.
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 23575
Salem, Oregon, US
#8 (get to know models, maybe even be friends with them) has worked for me. i'd also add networking with other photographers, MUAs, etc. get your name known in the local community so when a model asks "have you ever worked with so and so" they can get a positive response about you.
i've also found that my ability to get TF models has improved since i took most of the nudes out of my portfolio.
Model
Laura UnBound
Posts: 28745
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
The Face Photography wrote:
I can understand your point of view, and although the whole thing could be seen as the opinion of a model with an excesive self-esteem, I might agree. However, that point #3, and maybe some other, has something I strongly disapprove, and I don't think it is a good way of thinking: I don't know anybody who does not care about her job, and yet is able to do it well. She wasnt endorsing it, just stating it as a reason.
I've met a lot of models in my travels, and some of them have been just absolutely dead and soul-less behind their eyes. But....they're good at what they do and they rake in the cash for it. You can absolutely be good at something you have no emotional investment in. If you have the right look and can control your body in the way the person hiring you wants...you're golden. Not everyone out there making pretty pictures even wants a models input, let alone to "capture their true selves" or "collaborate" or whatever.
Being in it for the money is a plenty viable reason. I didnt work any of my real life jobs for anything other than the money, I certainly didnt LOVE working retail or manual labor or customer service. I hated those jobs....I loved my paycheck. (When it felt like enough for the hell I was put through that week) and those jobs weren't paying me to love my job or to care about them...they paid me to do work.
If you need your model to be emotionally invested in your work, that's fine. Just don't hire the ones who aren't, someone else will hire them and you can work with the type that suits you best. Everyone's happy.
Photographer
WIP
Posts: 15973
Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom
Laura UnBound wrote:
She wasnt endorsing it, just stating it as a reason.
I've met a lot of models in my travels, and some of them have been just absolutely dead and soul-less behind their eyes. Intelligent eyes to quote D. Bailey...... something you have.
Model
Phane
Posts: 2063
Rockville, Maryland, US
That Italian Guy wrote:
I'm lucky to be able to say that I've never had to pay a model for testing.
A few have refused to trade with me for whatever reason, and I often leave tags offering to trade which aren't reciprocated and hence go nowhere, but I don't regard models who don't want to trade with me as prima donnas!
I just assume they're blind 
/jk
If you ever tagged me to work with you I would in a heartbeat!! 
Stupid comp ahhhh!!! lol
Model
Nat has a username
Posts: 3590
Oakland, California, US
Laura UnBound wrote:
She wasnt endorsing it, just stating it as a reason.
I've met a lot of models in my travels, and some of them have been just absolutely dead and soul-less behind their eyes. But....they're good at what they do and they rake in the cash for it. You can absolutely be good at something you have no emotional investment in. If you have the right look and can control your body in the way the person hiring you wants...you're golden. Not everyone out there making pretty pictures even wants a models input, let alone to "capture their true selves" or "collaborate" or whatever.
Being in it for the money is a plenty viable reason. I didnt work any of my real life jobs for anything other than the money, I certainly didnt LOVE working retail or manual labor or customer service. I hated those jobs....I loved my paycheck. (When it felt like enough for the hell I was put through that week) and those jobs weren't paying me to love my job or to care about them...they paid me to do work.
If you need your model to be emotionally invested in your work, that's fine. Just don't hire the ones who aren't, someone else will hire them and you can work with the type that suits you best. Everyone's happy. Very well put! As is the OP.
Everyone does what they do for their own personal reasons, which may be vastly different from your own. Refine what your reasons are, and put them out there. You will attract those who are on your wavelength.
There are plenty of people I've turned down testing with because there was something "off"; good images (sometimes great images), no horrible references or anything, I just didn't mesh with them. More often than not this is my reason for turning down a test shoot, or at least for postponing it until one of us has a clearer idea as to what we will shoot together.
Those who react negatively to me declining solidify us never working together. Which is fine; there are plenty of people in the world.
Photographer
Cherrystone
Posts: 37171
Columbus, Ohio, US
Photographer
Cherrystone
Posts: 37171
Columbus, Ohio, US
Garry k wrote:
and
Some Models understand that some photographers work is crap and could actually hurt their image and portfolio Great point Garry!
Photographer
Chuckarelei
Posts: 11271
Seattle, Washington, US
That Italian Guy wrote:
I offer cookies... does that help? That's it? That's the best you can do?
I offer chocolate!
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 12067
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US
indefinite anomaly wrote:
Very well put! As is the OP.
Everyone does what they do for their own personal reasons, which may be vastly different from your own. Refine what your reasons are, and put them out there. You will attract those who are on your wavelength.
There are plenty of people I've turned down testing with because there was something "off"; good images (sometimes great images), no horrible references or anything, I just didn't mesh with them. More often than not this is my reason for turning down a test shoot, or at least for postponing it until one of us has a clearer idea as to what we will shoot together.
Those who react negatively to me declining solidify us never working together. Which is fine; there are plenty of people in the world. Is being sad about it "reacting negatively?"
Photographer
Jerry Nemeth
Posts: 33355
Dearborn, Michigan, US
Cherrystone wrote:
You forgot bacon I picked up homemade bacon up north last week.
Model
Nat has a username
Posts: 3590
Oakland, California, US
Art of the nude wrote:
Is being sad about it "reacting negatively?" hardly. I mean more along the lines of "Bitch, I'm in Italian Vogue! Fuck your couch!" 
Photographer
Louis Li Photography
Posts: 1177
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Great post! Very well written.
Your reason #7 is a big one.
Photographer
WIP
Posts: 15973
Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom
I offer you'll walk (crawl sometimes) out of the studio feeling you've been in a gym for two hours and you'll ache the next day.
Model
Shihan Sky
Posts: 40
Los Angeles, California, US
Add "there are just some creepy photographers, period."
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 12067
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US
IDiivil wrote:
Hi, everyone. I've been seeing a lot of "Why won't models trade with me?" threads the last couple days. Here's some information I've put together to hopefully clarify the situation and offer solutions for you guys. Kevin Connery wrote:
Very nicely done.
The second half needs to be brought to more photographers, though, and not that many (relative) read the model forum. Are you suggesting that she double post it???
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 12067
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US
Art of the nude wrote:
Is being sad about it "reacting negatively?" indefinite anomaly wrote:
hardly. I mean more along the lines of "Bitch, I'm in Italian Vogue! Fuck your couch!" Good; so I can still hope.
I didn't react like that even when the models WERE bitches, which is fairly uncommon.
Photographer
Jeffrey M Fletcher
Posts: 4861
Asheville, North Carolina, US
Laura UnBound wrote:
If you need your model to be emotionally invested in your work, that's fine. Just don't hire the ones who aren't, someone else will hire them and you can work with the type that suits you best. Everyone's happy. I actually like the models to be aesthetically and perhaps psychologically invested in the work but, it's okay with me if they want to be emotional about it as well.
Just have to find the people who fit. Finding the right people to work with is part of the activity for everyone who does this.
Model
Shilo Von Porcelaine
Posts: 235
Los Angeles, California, US
Amen! Perfect post--though it can certainly work both ways when a model asks a photographer for a trade shoot as well. In which case, the reasons why they might be rejected are usually lack of skill/experience, a look not suitable for a certain aesthetic/project, or that the photographers only source of income is paid gigs because their work is that good.
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 12067
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US
IDiivil wrote:
Hi, everyone. I've been seeing a lot of "Why won't models trade with me?" threads the last couple days. Here's some information I've put together to hopefully clarify the situation and offer solutions for you guys.
Why a model may turn down a test shoot with you:
1. They don't find your work specifically to be helpful to their book.
2. They don't find your concept specifically to be helpful to their book.
3. They don't care about modeling and just use it as a way to get money.
4. They don't have much time, so if they have the spare hours, they're going to take paid gigs or take nothing at all.
5. They have too many images already and don't care to have more - either in the genre you are looking to shoot or in general.
6. They don't understand what trade/test is and/or don't see the value in it. A general argument from such an individual would be, "Why would I work for free?"
7. They legitimately cannot tell the difference in quality of images, so they can't tell if you are better/worse than the average Joe Blow (or they don't care). In this case, even if you feel your work is much better than the model's portfolio, that fact won't matter to them.
8. They are signed with an agency that determines who they trade/test with and cannot work outside of that agency.
9. They love to trade, but maybe your concept infringes upon a boundary they've drawn where it's asking too much for no pay. An example of this is a model who would trade for clothed shoots all day, but s/he finds nudity a separate situation and will not work without being financially compensated.
10. Along the line of 9, the model is being asked to trade a genre s/he is completely unwilling to shoot no matter the circumstances.
11. The manner in which the model is offered the trade shoot has offended them... and/or the profile, about me, requirements of the person offering the trade shoot turns off the model. Even something as simple as not crediting a single model in one's portfolio can be of note to the model.
11. The model just can't afford to trade no matter what due to his/her financial situation.
12. The model may prefer trading in a situation where makeup/hair/wardrobe/cool location/publication opportunity is offered.
13. The model only trades with good friends who they can trust to be reliable/comfortable/fun to work with.
And so on and so forth.
So what can I do to get models?
1. Pay your model.
2. Improve your portfolio.
3. Reassess the message you are sending to your models. Maybe something you are writing to them or something in your profile text is sending them red flags.
4. Offer extras. Publication opportunities, makeup/hair stylists, unique wardrobe, gas money, food, amazing locations, and anything else that can make your offer stand out amongst others.
5. Write more models.
6. Make a casting call.
7. Have examples of the genre you are asking the model to trade with you on. If you want to shoot fine art and have no examples of fine art, the model may be unwilling to offer his/her time as they are unsure if the image will be useful to them.
8. Find a way to network and meet models so you can get to know them and hopefully be on a more comfortable, level ground to offer a trade shoot on.
9. Keep an eye on your internet presence. Coming off as a difficult person online can get noticed if a model does a little digging, and that can turn them off from otherwise shooting with you.
... I hope this helps give you guys ideas on why the model(s) you are writing are turning down trade and what you can do to change your situation The only negative response I can think of is that you have two different "number 11" items.
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 21526
Chicago, Illinois, US
I think to be really good as a actor, model, photographer or musician requires a emotional investment. When art becomes strictly about money I find that people don't always give their best. As for why models refuse trades. Understand that even if you are the next Avedon or Newton some models are not going to want to shoot unless their being paid. Having a great portfolio on MM for models doesn't actually mean all that much when WE are largely the clients anyway. With that said. Sites like MM are primary filled with hobbyists. Few make a full time living with any of this. If a model or two or three doesn't want to trade. Its not the end of the world.
Photographer
Dark Shadows
Posts: 2269
Miami, Florida, US
Tony Lawrence wrote:
Understand that even if you are the next Avedon or Newton some models are not going to want to shoot unless their being paid. Absolutely. Also, something else that is not often mentioned, many times models have a very specific view of what constitutes 'quality' and that may differ significantly from the photographer's own view on the matter. This can also be influenced by what you are exposed to.
For example, someone who visits and spends a great deal of time on MM may have a different idea of what quality is in comparison to someone who visits thefashionspot.com for an equivalent amount of time.
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