Justin wrote:
The trick is to keep the site, any site, productive and friendly on an ongoing basis. You can't maintain being the latest greatest thing forever. Stability and consistency have to be in play sooner or later.

DOUGLASFOTOS wrote:
Stability and Consistency...where have I seen that before?

Blackberry? Yeah, I'm not advocating that as the legacy model, either.

GRMACK wrote:
More annoying is all the crap I have to go through now to even do a shoot outdoors verses 20 years ago.  Can't shoot photos here or there due to restrictions.

One reason I'm happy to reside and shoot in the "unpopular" Houston area, where few places attract sufficient photographers to warrant such restrictions, but popular enough to attract numerous and diverse models and photographers.

I've been shooting for 8 1/2 years, and one of the more obvious changes I've noticed are fewer traditional "Goth" models.

My favorite list consists of images from the first year or so of MM from members who haven't been active much past then:

https://www.modelmayhem.com/list/323934

All this being said, I'm not seeing much evidence of MM decline, but perhaps a long plateau.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
MM was a success partly because of its then take no prisoners forums.   So in no way did MM invent or redefine Internet modeling.   Sites come and go.   MM is older and has become less popular.

I joined MM in 6/2005, about a month after joining OMP. MM was vastly superior as far as interaction and overall "personality", and I gave up on on OMP a few months later. Back then, MM's slogan was "Brand new and fresh", and it was indeed true.

JAE Photography PA wrote:
I've done most of my bookings on Facebook this year.  MM just feels dated.

Although I hate Facebook since I mostly shoot nudes

I see Facebook as good for maintaining contact but not making first contact. In other words, I first find models on MM or Meetup.com, and then Facebook may become the primary way to communicate after that.

Nudes are no problem in private/secret groups provided that those who join can be trusted. Most Facebook images are reported to get back at someone vs. finding them offensive.

Click Hamilton wrote:
In terms of available cash flow that floats all boats, it could also be partly due to the extended sickness of the economy.

...

Or maybe due to an improving economy, people are doing real work instead of fun stuff.

rp_photo wrote:

I joined MM in 6/2005, about a month after joining OMP. MM was vastly superior as far as interaction and overall "personality", and I gave up on on OMP a few months later. Back then, MM's slogan was "Brand new and fresh", and it was indeed true.

I remember when you joined.   I was in Texas then.   MM grew quickly  because of controversial forum posts about race and religion and politics.   Since SB has been removed take a look at how many members who used to post and were active.   Many have stopped logging in and don't post to any forum.   Things have slowed even on the Facebook groups about Modelmayhem.   I'm not advocating the return of SB but without it MM becomes just another modeling website.   Still popular but not as vibrant and fun to be a active part of.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I'm not advocating the return of SB but without it MM becomes just another modeling website.   Still popular but not as vibrant and fun to be a active part of.

IMHO, overly-strict moderation has been a big part of the problem.

Tony Lawrence wrote:

Sites like OMP and Garage Glamour and others were first.   I know some of the photographers here from Netmodels.   MM was a success partly because of its then take no prisoners forums.   So in no way did MM invent or redefine Internet modeling.   Sites come and go.   MM is older and has become less popular.

I see your point, but MM was the site that out ran all of the rest. I was a member of OMP too. I came to MM not long after it opened, under the name J. Merrill Images. I left for a bit and came back with a new profile name.

So, I've seen a bit of the "before MM" too. I'll still stick with my premise though, because MM has become much larger than the rest. Its were "internet modeling really took off.

MerrillMedia wrote:
In a way, Model Mayhem invented "internet modeling." It became a place where models, photographers, MUAs, etc., could meet one another and work together. I think when things are new and exciting, they tend to experience high levels of interest and hence, activity.

i shot my first internet model, from another country, in 1997.

there have been a number of sites that have risen and fallen over the years... before modelmayhem. not that many people were 'online' back then, so not as many people knew about it.

moving on... somebody could write a book about the changes in the online modeling world, and the changes in the internet photography world, over the years.

contrary to what Click might think... i attribute some of the modeling decline to improvement in the economy... more girls have jobs and less time for modeling. quite a few traveling models are busier than ever. some i have to book 4 or 5 months in advance or they have a trip somewhere already planned.

quite a few legitimate reasons have been presented already, but can we really say that actual booking activity is down? some of the traveling models have already worked with so many photographers that they don't have to spend as much time on here to find bookings.

facebook is a place where a lot of people go to play. and people who stay local might find people to shoot there. but MM is still the go to site for modeling photography.

Mr Connery expressed things quite well... and he was one of the rational people, even back then. and even when he was going back and forth with Gary.   if you don't know what i'm talking about, you are new. haha   and i run/ran one of the web sites he mentioned in his post.

as far as the layout goes, the 'keep it simple stupid' is what made this place to start with. OMP went the other way and hastened their demise.

from my point of view, there are now so many new people on here that don't really have a place in the 'modeling world' that it gums it up for me. but maybe that's just my cynical side showing.

maybe we're just shaking out the chaffe? where else can serious models go to get work? ever since 'nudes' was an option in a model search this site became indispensable for many of us.

but yes Virginia, trainwrecks do increase traffic.

who knows, tomorrow i may think differently.


100 or so internet photographers and models... from spring 2006

rp_photo wrote:

IMHO, overly strict moderation has been a big part of the problem.

Maybe but all those who posted in SB and couldn't be civil share in the blame as well as the crybabies who ran to nark.   If I were a MOD I would  be happy that SB is gone.   Even without it,   recently a model called Muslim men Pedophiles.   There is a line and members continued too cross it.   That's for another thread though.

rp_photo wrote:
IMHO, overly-strict moderation has been a big part of the problem.

That's a fact, Jack!

Marc Damon wrote:
Facebook isn't the problem. It's the solution, albeit not a very good one imho.

Facebook has replaced what MM used to be because they are more modern and tech efficient. They offer a user friendly format that allows anyone to connect with whoever they wish for any reason. They also have the money and resources to stave off things like a TOS and privacy policies that are 100% screwed up.

That TOS is why I took down all my images when they made the announcement that their 'change' was coming. I've noticed a lot of 'friends' have deleted a ton of data from their profiles since that FS TOS change occurred. FB messaging also has dried up and e-mail has gone way up in its place.

rp_photo wrote:

IMHO, overly-strict moderation has been a big part of the problem.

Taking SB out of it...this place used to be way more fun...especially sf2..which was like one big weirdo party complete with sex jokes and lighthearted crass talk and such...
Some of it leaked to OT as well...
Now OT is a morgue...and sf2 is boring as hell with the few regulars reminiscing about when it used to be fun

D Artistic Photography wrote:
Being an active member of MM since 2008, I have noticed significant decline in activity on this site during past couple of years. First, there is a significant decrease in number of open casting calls for models and especially for photographers in Long Island area (NY). Second, casting calls do not attract as many visitors as they did in the past (no matter whether the casting is “paid” or “TF”). Third, at least in my experience, the proportion of serious responders to all responders to a particular casting call went down dramatically – these days you can arrange a photo shoot with just one model out of ten that responded (only if you are lucky).

This may be the result of growing popularity of digital photography – now everybody has a camera that can take high-quality photos. Or maybe the overall popularity of modeling has declined over the years.  I think that there are now emerging alternatives to MM – other websites where photographers can find models and vice versa.  In particular, I heard references to Facebook from other photographers.  I do not have a Facebook account and I would like to get feedback from photographers and models who have accounts there.

I would like to know what other people think - is this really a problem or it is just me or something wrong with our area?
 
Thank you.

Dimitri

This guy could better explain it to you.

rp_photo wrote:

I see Facebook as good for maintaining contact but not making first contact. In other words, I first find models on MM or Meetup.com, and then Facebook may become the primary way to communicate after that.

Nudes are no problem in private/secret groups provided that those who join can be trusted. Most Facebook images are reported to get back at someone vs. finding them offensive.

Models communicate with me on MM.  They shoot nude.

BeautybyGod wrote:
i shot my first internet model, from another country, in 1997.

there have been a number of sites that have risen and fallen over the years... before modelmayhem. not that many people were 'online' back then, so not as many people knew about it.

moving on... somebody could write a book about the changes in the online modeling world, and the changes in the internet photography world, over the years.

contrary to what Click might think... i attribute some of the modeling decline to improvement in the economy... more girls have jobs and less time for modeling. quite a few traveling models are busier than ever. some i have to book 4 or 5 months in advance or they have a trip somewhere already planned.

quite a few legitimate reasons have been presented already, but can we really say that actual booking activity is down? some of the traveling models have already worked with so many photographers that they don't have to spend as much time on here to find bookings.

facebook is a place where a lot of people go to play. and people who stay local might find people to shoot there. but MM is still the go to site for modeling photography.

Mr Connery expressed things quite well... and he was one of the rational people, even back then. and even when he was going back and forth with Gary.   if you don't know what i'm talking about, you are new. haha   and i run/ran one of the web sites he mentioned in his post.

as far as the layout goes, the 'keep it simple stupid' is what made this place to start with. OMP went the other way and hastened their demise.

from my point of view, there are now so many new people on here that don't really have a place in the 'modeling world' that it gums it up for me. but maybe that's just my cynical side showing.

maybe we're just shaking out the chaffe? where else can serious models go to get work? ever since 'nudes' was an option in a model search this site became indispensable for many of us.

but yes Virginia, trainwrecks do increase traffic.

who knows, tomorrow i may think differently.


100 or so internet photographers and models... from spring 2006

I'm in front.   

rp_photo wrote:
IMHO, overly-strict moderation has been a big part of the problem.

A typical response from a forum user, thinking the fora is the end all, be all of MM, when in reality it couldn't be further from the truth.

A very very small percentage of MM users ever venture into the forums, even fewer wind up becoming kinda regulars.

Look at some of the most successful models on MM, then look to see how many forum posts they've made. Tons of them either haven't wandered into the forums, or have post counts of under a 100-200.

I was chiding one in particular a couple years ago about her never using the forums......someone who was cracking close to 6 figures a year modeling.

Her response to me? "Fuck that, the forums are crazy & full of insane people".

Cherrystone wrote:

A typical response from a forum user, thinking the fora is the end all, be all of MM, when in reality it couldn't be further from the truth.

A very very small percentage of MM users ever venture into the forums, even fewer wind up becoming kinda regulars.

Look at some of the most successful models on MM, then look to see how many forum posts they've made. Tons of them either haven't wandered into the forums, or have post counts of under a 100-200.

I was chiding one in particular a couple years ago about her never using the forums......someone who was cracking close to 6 figures a year modeling.

Her response to me? "Fuck that, the forums are crazy & full of insane people".

True!
The model who contacted me yesterday is rarely in the forums.  She is too busy working!

Raoul Isidro Images wrote:
Decline of activity on MM?

What happened in July?

Click Hamilton wrote:

What happened in July?

It was a time called "summer" and the weather was nice.
People went outside away from their computers.

Paolo Diavolo wrote:
It was a time called "summer" and the weather was nice.
People went outside away from their computers.

Maybe I'm not understanding the graph.

Is the X axis upside down? Look at the units on the left.

If so, it would indicate a steady increase in traffic then a dramatic dip about the time SB was shut down?

No seasonal similarity the preceding July?

Click Hamilton wrote:
What happened in July?

Paolo Diavolo wrote:
It was a time called "summer" and the weather was nice.
People went outside away from their computers.

Then why did the traffic rise so much in that month?

Frozen Moments Photo wrote:
I think facebook may have something to do with it. Sometimes I check the events section with the intention of possibly attending if the location sounds cool. I checked one event close to me, and out of the 50 models that were listed to be attending only 5 of them had a MM account. The rest were all facebook.

Soon, I will either have to give in and get facebook or go back to wildlife if MM bites the dust. I want no part of facebook, either.

Facebook has an events section? I only use it like a blog and didn't know that. I also was totally surprised to discover people use it as a dating site too!? Wha?

Jen

Swank Photography wrote:
I think that in the process of MM trying to clean of this place, the older, more untamed (trolling/snarky) members deem it unfavorable now to hang out and prefer to hang out in their fb groups to where they can talk shit and not get brigged.

I think that it was during 2006, when we had some absolutely outstanding members, pulitzer prize winning photographers (don't remember the name now), Emmy Award winning MUA's (Kevin-James Bennett), TX Photog (Roger Talley), OldGuysRule (Richard Goldstein) and other high caliber members (only a handful are still here)...

Many left or got banned for speaking their minds... when I went on a hiatus and came back... so much changed, and I have heard of some major revolt and "clean-up" by the new management... and many highly regarded members were gone or made to leave...

Add the briggings, tighter forum rules and other factors that lead to a decline in interest and you can see how the popularity and even credibility declined, where the actions of the new management were most likely aimed to increase the credibility and quality of MM, which seemed to have backfired.

I do miss the old days... NYC had naturally a huge fashion scene on MM... we had regular meetups, hanging, socializing having fun... all gone... we are all still friends and colleagues, working together at fashion week etc., but... nothing related to MM, things are happening on FB...

udor wrote:
I think that it was during 2006, when we had some absolutely outstanding members, pulitzer prize winning photographers (don't remember the name now), Emmy Award winning MUA's (Kevin-James Bennett), TX Photog (Roger Talley), OldGuysRule (Richard Goldstein) and other high caliber members (only a handful are still here)...

Many left or got banned for speaking their minds... when I went on a hiatus and came back... so much changed, and I have heard of some major revolt and "clean-up" by the new management... and many highly regarded members were gone or made to leave...

Add the briggings, tighter forum rules and other factors that lead to a decline in interest and you can see how the popularity and even credibility declined, where the actions of the new management were most likely aimed to increase the credibility and quality of MM, which seemed to have backfired.

I do miss the old days... NYC had naturally a huge fashion scene on MM... we had regular meetups, hanging, socializing having fun... all gone... we are all still friends and colleagues, working together at fashion week etc., but... nothing related to MM, things are happening on FB...

Then there is only one thing left to be done, udor.

You must return to your post as a moderator.

Nay. Not A moderator. You must become THE moderator.

NothingIsRealButTheGirl wrote:
Then there is only one thing left to be done, udor.

You must return to your post as a moderator.

Nay. Not A moderator. You must become THE moderator.

LOL... There is massive, ==>> MASSIVE opposition within the new government to reinstate me... from the time I returned 2 years ago...

It's not gonna happen...

Paolo Diavolo wrote:

It was a time called "summer" and the weather was nice.
People went outside away from their computers.

LMAO +1

MyrnaByrna Jen B wrote:

Facebook has an events section? I only use it like a blog and didn't know that. I also was totally surprised to discover people use it as a dating site too!? Wha?

Jen

Yes they have an event page. Had this for years. Facebook is the Yellow Pages of the internet.

udor wrote:

I think that it was during 2006, when we had some absolutely outstanding members, pulitzer prize winning photographers (don't remember the name now), Emmy Award winning MUA's (Kevin-James Bennett), TX Photog (Roger Talley), OldGuysRule (Richard Goldstein) and other high caliber members (only a handful are still here)...

Many left or got banned for speaking their minds... when I went on a hiatus and came back... so much changed, and I have heard of some major revolt and "clean-up" by the new management... and many highly regarded members were gone or made to leave...

Add the briggings, tighter forum rules and other factors that lead to a decline in interest and you can see how the popularity and even credibility declined, where the actions of the new management were most likely aimed to increase the credibility and quality of MM, which seemed to have backfired.

I do miss the old days... NYC had naturally a huge fashion scene on MM... we had regular meetups, hanging, socializing having fun... all gone... we are all still friends and colleagues, working together at fashion week etc., but... nothing related to MM, things are happening on FB...

TX Photog was an asshole. He was rude to many of the people on here. He spoke his mind a bit too much in the wrong way. I always got the impression that he was bitter from working in the industry over the years and felt that people needed to bow down to him when he shared his so called knowledge. Nothing wrong with sharing it, but there is way to share it. One NYC model called him on his melodramatic stuff spot on and he vacated that particular thread.

Raoul Isidro Images wrote:
Decline of activity on MM?

Click Hamilton wrote:
What happened in July?

I bet that is when MM started sending out emails to old profiles telling them they would be removed if they did not log in.




I got this is email September for an old profile I had shut down:
   
Dear Model Mayhem Member,

We miss you! And we’re hoping that you miss us too.

We recognize that it has been a while since you last visited Model Mayhem and there are a number of reasons why someone would shut down their account. But we want to invite you to return.

Over the last year we’ve seen a number of fantastic additions to the site and are eager to show them off to you:

We now have over 800,000 active members in the community from all over the world.
Our casting call system had over 300,000 casting calls posted over the last 12 months, essentially making Model Mayhem the largest source of work in the industry.
We recently launched the ability for outside entities (casting directors, agencies, producers, etc.) to recruit MM talent and have seen a dramatic increase in the number of paid opportunities for the community.
We launched a mobile version of the site, helping members to network and manage their profiles while on the go.
And much more…
Currently the profile associated with this email address is inactive. However, if you are still interested in the industry, there is no better time than right now to reactivate your account and re-join the largest modeling community in the world. Simply log-in using your old credentials, head to your account settings page and turn your profile back on.

Don’t miss this opportunity! We are in the process of fully deleting abandoned profiles and so if you don’t come back in and re-activate your profile by October 31, 2013 all of your old data will be purged and lost forever. Don’t be lost forever.

Log-in to your Model Mayhem account today.

Hope to see you soon,
The Model Mayhem Team

Legacys 7 wrote:
TX Photog was an asshole. He was rude to many of the people on here. He spoke his mind a bit too much in the wrong way. I always got the impression that he was bitter from working in the industry over the years and felt that people needed to bow down to him when he shared his so called knowledge. Nothing wrong with sharing it, but there is way to share it. One NYC model called him on his melodramatic stuff spot on and he vacated that particular thread.

I don't know... Roger has always been a gentleman to me and we always got along extremely well.

Maybe he just got too tired hearing a lot of b.s. by people (photographer and models) who had no clue about the NY market and the actual industry (except fo ANTM "education") that he might have snapped a few times.

But... as I said... I had never, ever a problem with him and we are still in touch.

Legacys 7 wrote:

TX Photog was an asshole. He was rude to many of the people on here. He spoke his mind a bit too much in the wrong way. I always got the impression that he was bitter from working in the industry over the years and felt that people needed to bow down to him when he shared his so called knowledge. Nothing wrong with sharing it, but there is way to share it. One NYC model called him on his melodramatic stuff spot on and he vacated that particular thread.

Huh?  What happened?   Is that why he left?

udor wrote:

I don't know... Roger has always been a gentleman to me and we always got along extremely well.

Maybe he just got too tired hearing a lot of b.s. by people (photographer and models) who had no clue about the NY market and the actual industry (except fo ANTM "education") that he might have snapped a few times.

But... as I said... I had never, ever a problem with him and we are still in touch.

Yeah he's always been super nice to me. 

D Artistic Photography wrote:
Being an active member of MM since 2008, I have noticed significant decline in activity on this site during past couple of years. First, there is a significant decrease in number of open casting calls for models and especially for photographers in Long Island area (NY). Second, casting calls do not attract as many visitors as they did in the past (no matter whether the casting is “paid” or “TF”). Third, at least in my experience, the proportion of serious responders to all responders to a particular casting call went down dramatically – these days you can arrange a photo shoot with just one model out of ten that responded (only if you are lucky).

This may be the result of growing popularity of digital photography – now everybody has a camera that can take high-quality photos. Or maybe the overall popularity of modeling has declined over the years.  I think that there are now emerging alternatives to MM – other websites where photographers can find models and vice versa.  In particular, I heard references to Facebook from other photographers.  I do not have a Facebook account and I would like to get feedback from photographers and models who have accounts there.

I would like to know what other people think - is this really a problem or it is just me or something wrong with our area?
 
Thank you.

Dimitri

Generally I would suggest these as possible contributory factors
1. The general view of many photographers here that MM models are not reliable, poor quality etc. There is no motivation to be part of something that can tarnish ones reputation. I know this because agency models who used to be here have told me.
2. The view that models here are not worth paying , and they get scoffed at if not industTy standard. No point hanging around to be insulted when one already has plenty of paid work and this view has infected many photographers views.
3. Photographers realise existing models generally aren't going to pay them for port shoots and tf opportunities are limited unless you are working at a high professional level in fashion etc. or have a strong artistic vision.
4. The forums are badly moderated and personal insult abounds and goes unpunished. So people get bitten and stay away. Women particularly will not put up with it. Either from catty women or testosterone filled chest beating men. Again this is also the view of many models and muas etc I know.
5. The American domination of the forums gives people the impression that the site is for mainly Americans.
6. The view that only Gwcs actually pay models has given many the idea they shouldn't offer models money if they are credible photographers. Again when one sees photographers expecting and even demanding rudely a model to shoot tf she will just get sick of it. It has become a source if boasting if a photographer does not have to pay models because their port is so good models fall over themselves to shoot with them or pay them. Even if true for some, such boasts infect lesser photographers to do the same. So there appears less paid work. So pointless hanging around when castings elsewhere even on internet agency sites are always paid and one gets offered lots of variety eg film extra work fit modelling promo etc.
7. Lewd messaging
8. Casting call scams
9. Lack of understanding from photographers that they are not our only clients and many offer us steady work. Lack if understanding from models that photographers aren't paying for the privilege of shooting
Models because they are pretty.
10. all the above contribute to a generally malevolent atmosphere, compounded by bad press about safety but dismissal as unprofessional concerns about it.