Caitin Bre wrote:
Do you work for the IRS or something?
Its rude to ask someone what there annual income is.

A model can have a web site making themselves 40 to 60 k a month on top of there shooting. maybe even more.
Just do this go to Bunny Ranch in Carson City Nevada. Negotiate just a 2 hour photoshoot only with one of the girls. I bet you wont get away with spending less than 800 an hour and a very limited usage agreement. Tell Dennis I sent you.
And no that doesn't mean I've worked there, simply put I am well networked and have lots of friends that work the world of photography in all aspects. I Never judge.

I find pay is equal to limitations. And I know some idiot will get on and say oh low limitations means your doing favors. That's very small minded and BS, condescending and disrespectful.

And no I don't do porn. But I have a few friends that do and they pop 10k in 4 hours plus residual earnings as well as the right to use the footage for there website.

The fashion industry vs freelance are 2 entirely different worlds. It gets confused a lot here on MM.
It kills me when I see MM photographers saying what its like for freelance models in the real world. How do they know until they have walked in our shoes?

Jerry Nemeth wrote:
They are not models!
I know a pro photographer who has photographed at one of those places.

Fascinating fashionable freelance opportunities! This is entirely wonderful and, I'm sure, appreciated by the op.

Caitin Bre wrote:
Do you work for the IRS or something?
Its rude to ask someone what there annual income is.

A model can have a web site making themselves 40 to 60 k a month on top of there shooting. maybe even more.
Just do this go to Bunny Ranch in Carson City Nevada. Negotiate just a 2 hour photoshoot only with one of the girls. I bet you wont get away with spending less than 800 an hour and a very limited usage agreement. Tell Dennis I sent you.
And no that doesn't mean I've worked there, simply put I am well networked and have lots of friends that work the world of photography in all aspects. I Never judge.

I find pay is equal to limitations. And I know some idiot will get on and say oh low limitations means your doing favors. That's very small minded and BS, condescending and disrespectful.

And no I don't do porn. But I have a few friends that do and they pop 10k in 4 hours plus residual earnings as well as the right to use the footage for there website.

The fashion industry vs freelance are 2 entirely different worlds. It gets confused a lot here on MM.
It kills me when I see MM photographers saying what its like for freelance models in the real world. How do they know until they have walked in our shoes?

No, I don't work for IRS.  I don't know how IRS going to track those that get paid by cash.  That is a tough one.

  But you saying some models (nude) can make 60K per month on website?  Are you referring to porn models? 

  High end escort don't even make that much.  If I am not mistaken, high end escort (one that has master degree) can go around $200 to $1K per hour.  But these are high end  they have business/showmanship/social skills and their clients are extremely discreet.  Some even live for free (client's property).

By the way, the Bunny Ranch in Carson City Nevada you referring to, those girls don't make $800 per hour.  Stop spreading false info. 

  Example if they are making $300/hour (depends on what the client choose to do, base on what the client wants).  I think the house gets 40% and the girl get 60%.  However, if the girl use some of the product from the house, they also have to pay for the product.  So, even if the girl is making $300/hour, she probably making only half of that.  Not to mention that these girls also competing with each other and they don't always have clients.  Most of the time they are idle.

  I am not a model so I don't know how it is like to walk in freelance model shoes.  However, I do know some art nude models and they no way getting pay like you said.  As a matter of fact, they also have other regular job just like everyone else.

Jerry Nemeth wrote:

They are not models!
I know a pro photographer who has photographed at one of those places.

Oh but they are Models. They do model.
Air Force Amy is a fantastic model. Just to name one. They have other jobs as well. Just like a lot of models do. Some flip burgers and some run Companies. Blue collar white collar. from all walks. I was a union rail road worker

Caitin Bre wrote:
Oh but they are Models. They do model.
Air Force Amy is a fantastic model. Just to name one. They have other jobs as well. Just like a lot of models do. Some flip burgers and some run Companies. Blue collar white collar. from all walks. I was a union rail road worker

You sound like you are extremely familiar with those brothels! 

I doubt that the majority of girls who work there are models!

Decay of Memory wrote:

Caitin Bre wrote:
Do you work for the IRS or something?
Its rude to ask someone what there annual income is.

A model can have a web site making themselves 40 to 60 k a month on top of there shooting. maybe even more.
Just do this go to Bunny Ranch in Carson City Nevada. Negotiate just a 2 hour photoshoot only with one of the girls. I bet you wont get away with spending less than 800 an hour and a very limited usage agreement. Tell Dennis I sent you.
And no that doesn't mean I've worked there, simply put I am well networked and have lots of friends that work the world of photography in all aspects. I Never judge.

I find pay is equal to limitations. And I know some idiot will get on and say oh low limitations means your doing favors. That's very small minded and BS, condescending and disrespectful.

And no I don't do porn. But I have a few friends that do and they pop 10k in 4 hours plus residual earnings as well as the right to use the footage for there website.

The fashion industry vs freelance are 2 entirely different worlds. It gets confused a lot here on MM.
It kills me when I see MM photographers saying what its like for freelance models in the real world. How do they know until they have walked in our shoes?

Fascinating fashionable freelance opportunities! This is entirely wonderful and, I'm sure, appreciated by the op.

Actually the OP is getting a crash coarse in the variables of what to charge and how everyone on MM views pay.
She has a look. She can charge what ever she wants. How far she wants to go into the nude world is up to her.
There is a lot of information in this thread that she can learn from when deciding what to set her prices.
Why not turn all stones for her. She can read them and find her medium.

Brooks Ayola wrote:
God, I love/hate this place. :-)

I know, right?!

ChanStudio - OtherSide wrote:
I don't know how true this is:

http://careers.stateuniversity.com/pages/90/Model.html

The site looks pretty disreputable.

Schlake wrote:

The site looks pretty disreputable.

I just post the link to get some traction moving..

I still wonder how art nude model making $60K/month.  How many people are buying nude art images and at what price.

ChanStudio - OtherSide wrote:

I just post the link to get some traction moving..

I still wonder how art nude model making $60K/month.  How many people are buying nude art images and at what price.

I buy books of art nudes several times a year from amazon.  I don't really have a use for individual large (display) images, but I like the giant compilations, especially Taschen.

LightDreams wrote:
To the OP...

As long as I can remember, there have always been stories passed on to newbies about "typical rates".

Nothing beats getting some "real world" experience testing your particular market demand, whatever and wherever that may be.

Once you have a portfolio in some kind of "marketable" shape, figure out what type of work you want to do and how much you feel you should realistically be making over some time period (say a couple of months, or so).  Then track your results.

You'll figure out very quickly whether your should be changing your rates (up or down), or whether you are priced appropriately for your particular type of work, your particular location, and your own target goals.

I'd also suggest repeating the process at different stages in your career, because things are always changing.

Hope that helps and don't forget to enjoy yourself along the way!


-Russ / LightDreams.

+1

ChanStudio - OtherSide wrote:
I still wonder how art nude model making $60K/month. 

How many people are buying nude art images and at what price.

You're still making the mistake of thinking that both of those markets are combined.
They are not.

As a model I made the highest profit doing "art nude modeling" for those who were NOT selling their art nude prints. They were people who were either learning or enjoyed photography/sculpture/drawing as a hobby.

As a photographer the same, sure I can hire an art nude model pay her 100/hr and then sell the images/prints ... I have done so, and made a profit.

But the higher profit margin comes from

COMMISSIONED work.

People are many times willing to pay more for custom work considerably more than 100/hr.

And also with contract work not all hours are directly billed out at 100+hr.

You want a clean easy annual number, you can apply to all models/photographers/hookers/artists/retouchers/painters/window cleaners...
You're not going to get it.

Each of us makes a different amount, each of us is happy with a different amount.
Some of us are ramping up, while others are slowing down.

Caitin Bre wrote:

Actually the OP is getting a crash coarse in the variables of what to charge and how everyone on MM views pay.
She has a look. She can charge what ever she wants. How far she wants to go into the nude world is up to her.
There is a lot of information in this thread that she can learn from when deciding what to set her prices.
Why not turn all stones for her. She can read them and find her medium.

The OP hasn't responded to anyone in this thread and has only one total post. I'd be pretty surprised if she's even read any of this.

Caitin Bre wrote:
Oh but they are Models. They do model.
Air Force Amy is a fantastic model. Just to name one. They have other jobs as well. Just like a lot of models do. Some flip burgers and some run Companies. Blue collar white collar. from all walks. I was a union rail road worker

Only a few people here would even call you a model.
Yet you are here ...

Caitin Bre wrote:
Actually the OP is getting a crash coarse in the variables of what to charge and how everyone on MM views pay.
She has a look. She can charge what ever she wants. How far she wants to go into the nude world is up to her.
There is a lot of information in this thread that she can learn from when deciding what to set her prices.
Why not turn all stones for her. She can read them and find her medium.

Good Egg Productions wrote:
The OP hasn't responded to anyone in this thread and has only one total post. I'd be pretty surprised if she's even read any of this.

And her loss. Just four short pages from that first nude shoot to the Bunny Ranch and bank, I mean BANK in between. All outlined and explained with panache by experts in the field. Exciting and informative, really not to be missed.

ChanStudio - OtherSide wrote:

I just post the link to get some traction moving..

I still wonder how art nude model making $60K/month.  How many people are buying nude art images and at what price.

I don't know how it went from nude to specific art nude. There are many levels of nude modeling. I know erotic is on the list on MM. fetish as well.
For the OP there are nude Fetish models that do make great money from members only paid sites. Partial to full nude depending on what the theme is.
The point being is how much time do you want to devote to your modeling? How serious are you about making money from it? and what are your limitations? erotic nudes? Fetish etc...? that will determine based on the demand what you can charge.
If you opt to travel then the doors open up even wider for earnings but it takes a lot more time networking and commitment.
So I guess a better question for her is how committed to making money from your nude works are you?
The determination of how much you will be able to charge is based on this.
The money is there you have to market for it.

Samantha Barley wrote:
I'm unsure what I should be charging per hour.
I do partial nudes and full nudes.

thanks.

Full and Partial Nudes...

As this is my focus and I had to decide what "I" would pay you, my decision would be TFP at best.

Here's why,
No doubt you are a beautiful young woman with a blessed figure from what I can see in four photos but there is no indication you have nude experience and experience in artistic posing and expression.
As far as I know, you might be a what I call a "sitting nude" model. Basically that is a lovely model who basically sits and lays down naked looking pretty... that is not enough for me to pay you until your portfolio proves me wrong.

The models I do pay are ones that are very experienced and bring creativity to the shoot [as you can see in my port]. They have been doing this for a long time and have built reputations and consistency in their skills and modeling that will make me want to collaborate with them and pay them.

It's a relative thing or a supply and demand thing to ask for payment with a VERY limited portfolio. Some may ask You to pay the photographer to start with and then trade to build a good portfolio of what you want in order to achieve marketable images of yourself as a professional model.

Best bet is to TF* for a while with skilled and willing locals until you have enough content and skill to warrant being payed for your talents later.

wrongsideofthirty wrote:
as a photographer im unlikely to pay anyone with very little experience, you've only been here since 13 and don't have enough shots for me to tell how adaptable you are.

as a model i didnt start charging until i had four years experience under my belt.


that said there are photographers who want to shoot nudes badly enough that they would pay.....i would say if you are determined to start charging, start low, a bit lower than the average for your area, area determines rates. if you find you get a lot of work even with little experience, then go for the average.

personally i charge 60 an hour, but again, your area, experience and other factors make everyone different

Likewise for me.

I started modeling for a photographer 20 months ago and do not plan to charge for a couple more years but, that is my situation. You can charge whatever you want but, it may diminish your chances to shoot which diminish your opportunity to charge.

Its best to know your particular reasons for doing this. If you are only looking to make money then I cannot offer you any useful advice as I am not doing this to make money at this time.
Jen

Jerry Nemeth wrote:

Which one is it for this thread?

Both!

Carle Photography wrote:

Only a few people here would even call you a model.
Yet you are here ...

Caitin Bre wrote:

Oh but they are Models. They do model.
Air Force Amy is a fantastic model. Just to name one. They have other jobs as well. Just like a lot of models do. Some flip burgers and some run Companies. Blue collar white collar. from all walks. I was a union rail road worker

...I'm totally confused - I thought the Bunny Ranch was a brothel in Nevada??  Why does what a prostitute charge affect the OP who has only mentioned working to nudes.  I must admit, I really don't know current prices for people doing the former mentioned work.  Has this gone off on a bit of a tangent?

Caitin Bre wrote:
Oh but they are Models. They do model.
Air Force Amy is a fantastic model. Just to name one.

Doesn't say much about modelling...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Force_Amy

Ashley Graham wrote:
Yup. I know plenty of girls who got paid and beautiful images when they first started shooting, even nudes. MM will always say shoot for free first, but if you shoot for certain people with clients and have the right look you can get paid off the bat

This is true similarly to me winning the lottery if I buy a ticket. It doesn't mean I'm LIKELY to win lottery. You can get paid right off the bat if everything lines up for the Model in their favor (right connections, in an area near where these opportunities are and right look) but for the vast majority of Models this is not a likely scenario.

Ashley Graham wrote:
I make 800 or more almost every shoot I do

You can't present this as an absolute. When you started you weren't getting this rate. I know you can't be as forthcoming with why you can get those rates now because of the site rules but let's say the OP should ask who those clients are that can afford to pay both the Model and the Photographer for content.? Why would they pay a Model $800+ for a shoot when you can go on MM and get Models for 1/4 to 1/3 of that rate? What is the Model asked to do for those rates?

What you are referring to is upper 25% of the market for paid work for Models (this includes agency Models and sex industry Models). The average of paying work for all Models is going to be in the $150-$250 range for shoot, usually on Freelance Modeling sites with hobbyist and pros that have side projects.

This also underscores the importance of networking. Gotta have the knowledge of where these Photographers are and access to them to get paid. So unless some experienced Models are willing to share their hard earned client lists with every newbie Model that asks it more likely they will have to pay or trade to  build a quality portfolio to attract work like you and many other did. You worked hard to get to where you are don't discount or dismiss that experience.

Again, gotta go beyond this statement and ask who can afford to pay $800 per shoot and why would they do so?

Carle Photography wrote:

You're still making the mistake of thinking that both of those markets are combined.
They are not.

As a model I made the highest profit doing "art nude modeling" for those who were NOT selling their art nude prints. They were people who were either learning or enjoyed photography/sculpture/drawing as a hobby.

As a photographer the same, sure I can hire an art nude model pay her 100/hr and then sell the images/prints ... I have done so, and made a profit.

But the higher profit margin comes from

COMMISSIONED work.

People are many times willing to pay more for custom work considerably more than 100/hr.

And also with contract work not all hours are directly billed out at 100+hr.

You want a clean easy annual number, you can apply to all models/photographers/hookers/artists/retouchers/painters/window cleaners...
You're not going to get it.

Each of us makes a different amount, each of us is happy with a different amount.
Some of us are ramping up, while others are slowing down.

I have not heard of any art nude model making $60K per month.   I can see if that model is lucky for that month, she might be making $60K for that month only but eventually, you can't be making $60K/month consistently even for a famous/high end escort.

Alice de Wonder wrote:
I'm also a new model and I also charge for nude shoots, the only reason why I do this is because I haven't got much experience in shoots and I don't want to be passed around as a nude model. All my other shoots are TF, so this way I filter the nude requests because people are a lot more reluctant to shoot me in the nude and think of other ways to shoot with me.
I don't ask too much because I have no experience in nude photography, but it's enough to make sure it's not the only thing i'm asked for.

I think it just depends on what you want to be known for and what you want your portfolio to look like, if you want to be known as a nude model and you don't have a lot of experience then don't ask money for it, make sure you have experience first.
If you would like to do other styles but don't mind a bit of nudity then I think it's okay to ask a little, not too much, or ask nothing until you have a bit more experience.

That is far too logical this thread moved on to delusional once $120/hr plus was suggested.

Abbitt Photography wrote:
This is what I see happen often in my area:

A new model comes along and is willing to do nudes.  She reads advice in threads like this that leads her to believe that she's worth almost as much as the very successful, experienced models.  As a result she turns down what in reality are very fair offers given her look and experience.  The only offers she gets are maybe a couple GWC shoots, that provide images that do nothing to help get better offers.   Having few offers and a couple bad experiences the model simply fades away in frustration.

I know models who suggest high rates, feel they are perhaps helping that model earn more and possibly supporting higher rates in general.  I feel that's not the case.  Causing someone to have an over inflated idea of what their service is worth doesn't help anyone.  It doesn't help the model and it doesn't help photographers who are willing to pay a fair price.

Excellent and very realistic post.

I see the same thing here in the Chicago area. A lot of models who are new list Paid Only, list high rates, and their portfolio never changes and soon they havn't logged on for months.

I am fully supportive of models getting paid whatever someone is willing to pay them. So optimism is good - but realism is sometimes better.

Abbitt Photography wrote:
This is what I see happen often in my area:

A new model comes along and is willing to do nudes.  She reads advice in threads like this that leads her to believe that she's worth almost as much as the very successful, experienced models.  As a result she turns down what in reality are very fair offers given her look and experience.  The only offers she gets are maybe a couple GWC shoots, that provide images that do nothing to help get better offers.   Having few offers and a couple bad experiences the model simply fades away in frustration.

I know models who suggest high rates, feel they are perhaps helping that model earn more and possibly supporting higher rates in general.  I feel that's not the case.  Causing someone to have an over inflated idea of what their service is worth doesn't help anyone.  It doesn't help the model and it doesn't help photographers who are willing to pay a fair price.

Greg Kolack wrote:
Excellent and very realistic post.

I see the same thing here in the Chicago area. A lot of models who are new list Paid Only, list high rates, and their portfolio never changes and soon they havn't logged on for months.

I am fully supportive of models getting paid whatever someone is willing to pay them. So optimism is good - but realism is sometimes better.

You both make good points.

I also feel like, at least for the first year or so, focusing on building one's skill set is far more important - and relevant to long-term success - than earning instant revenue. Money is finite, and a sort of instant gratification, but having experience and a well-developed understanding of what you are doing, and how to accomplish the most basic things that clients are likely to expect from you in the future, that builds value for the long haul. It will greatly increase the worth of your product over the coming years.

Professionals, in any field, do not build value in their product if they do not invest a lot of time and energy into doing so, often with their visions set on long-term gain, rather than short-term paydays.

Koryn Locke wrote:
You both make good points.

I also feel like, at least for the first year or so, focusing on building one's skill set is far more important - and relevant to long-term success - than earning instant revenue. Money is finite, and a sort of instant gratification, but having experience and a well-developed understanding of what you are doing, and how to accomplish the most basic things that clients are likely to expect from you in the future, that builds value for the long haul. It will greatly increase the worth of your product over the coming years.

Professionals, in any field, do not build value in their product if they do not invest a lot of time and energy into doing so, often with their visions set on long-term gain, rather than short-term paydays.

You also make a good point.

Again - I am fully supportive of models getting paid, and if they can get paid well right out of the gate, more power to them. Or if they can get paid for doing hardcore, or web shows, or whatever, again - more power to them.

But to tell a new model they can get hundreds of dollars an hour right off the bat doing basic nude modeling because someone else does on account of circumstances is not serving the newb very well.

Mickle Design Werks wrote:
Again, gotta go beyond this statement and ask who can afford to pay $800 per shoot and why would they do so?

ontherocks wrote:
if the rates for traveling models have gone up since i was hiring them four years ago it's not inconceivable for a day shoot.

but i think the point was that to get that kind of money consistently you really need to be involved in projects where someone other than the photographer is footing the bill? and maybe these projects are happening outside of mayhem?

so maybe the discussion is really two things. what you can expect on mayhem and what you might be able to get off-mayhem.

one of the better photographers around here recently posted about not being able to cover rent and possibly needing to sell his gear. i don't think he'd be paying $800/day.

How much has the price of traveling gone up in the last 4 years do you think? 10 years? Gas has gone up by 2 to 3 bucks a gallon. And everything else has followed. Why shouldn't a model be expected to raise her price to match the costs going up?

Caitin Bre wrote:
How much has the price of traveling gone up in the last 4 years do you think? 10 years? Gas has gone up by 2 to 3 bucks a gallon. And everything else has followed. Why shouldn't a model be expected to raise her price to match the costs going up?

Carle Photography wrote:

Only a few people here would even call you a model.
Yet you are here ...

Ha most people here also pretend that they are big photographers in some imaginary Industry.
I am a freelance model. Do not confuse that with a fashion industry model. 2 entirely different worlds.
Most here do very much confuse the 2.
MM has very very small number of fashion industry pros on it. It is mostly freelance. But yet fashion wannabe's are constantly trying to push so called industry standards on to this site.
For you to make a condescending statement like this you obviously do not know what the word modeling means. Or you are very narrowly defining it based on what you think it is or want it to be.
I can tell you this. I get paid to model. The people who pay me are photographers that call me a model. I work projects that the call is for a model. So sorry I don't fit in your definition.
MM is a melting pot of people that have a passion for art and photography. There are no standard only experiences and opinions.
You go ahead and ignore the truth about the freelance world. I will keep working and making money in it like I have been since I was 18. Call it what ever you want to. But its modeling no matter if you like it or not.

So please do tell everyone what the definition of a Model is?

ontherocks wrote:
true but when clients call us they usually use that against us. it's a recession so you should give us a discount. yeah, right. all my costs are going up and you want me to give you a discount?

but the market decides. is the model worth $800/day (and for what type of shoot)? apparently some are. but i don't think all can expect to get that, especially on a typical mayhem shoot with a local model.

but for my part i'm always happy to hear that someone is making bank (unless they're a thug or crook). money makes the world go round after all.

So you have to be confident and tell your client that To compete at the level of quality that they have enjoyed from you that you are going to have to get increases to keep up with the costs of doing good business. You will lose some and gain others.

The entire situation for photography has changed. You have to compete with the amateur now. Amateur is who has raised the price of models. There is so much work out there and people pay what I ask. I don't care if they are a beginner or a pro. Money still spends the same way.
A lot of people in the business are learning the loyalty they once enjoyed is dwindling.
The photographers that I know are aggressive in there marketing. When things get a little unpredictable to survive they diversify and go for new markets.
If I relied on just fashion I wouldn't make it at all. I am to old, not stat and the competition for a few dollars is fierce. Art nude is also kinda competitive the pay is ok, but it is very demanding for the pay and to far between work. Erotic artistic and fetish.... bingo! So combine all 3 and you can do very well. Then kick off somethings of your own to keep some bread and butter going.
I stay very busy. because I make it that way. Not waiting for anyone. Not doing it the way anyone says it should be or has to be. If a model did it the way a lot say it should be on MM. They would starve.