Lohkee wrote:
I get (and support) the Constitutional rights thingy but I've learned over the years that how you respond to LEO sets the stage for whatever follows. If you're nice and friendly, they tend to react in much the same manner. I've been caught red-handed for minor traffic shit many times in my life. The worst that has happened is a lecture and warning to be a little more careful in the future. Had I been an asshole, spouted off about the gubment and my rights, things might not have gone so well (for me).

Same way here. My last five (yeah, five!!) times I've been stopped for traffic violations have resulted in either a friendly wave-off or a written warning. In each case, I was pleasant, explained why I was doing what I was doing, told them I was sorry, and in each case, they carefully removed the hook and threw the trout back in the stream.

Now, earlier in my youth, there was the incident where the cop pulled over a long-haired kid on a motorcycle and screamed at the kid for the way the kid was riding. The kid was shocked by the tone but still didn't resist, got a ticket he didn't deserve, stewed about it for a while, then shrugged, got on with life, and has had reasonably positive experiences with law enforcement ever since. Sometimes (not always, but sometimes) it's what you make of it.

So, yeah, proper or not, LEO is welcome to see my ID. Hell, LEO is welcome to come inside and look around without a warrant if it makes them happy.

Jebus, I lead a really boring life. . . . . . . .

I feel your pain. Wait.... is it pain?

The Grey Forest wrote:
Officers would not have the knowledge of nor care about a rare-breed canine, it would go to the pound but by the hands of the the Animal Control Dept.

Well, I'll knock off the humor. If Fido was garden-variety terrier, and the tag said, "Please return my beloved Fido to ____" with my name and address, maybe it's just that we live in different places, but I would not be surprised at all if a cop came to the door, Fido under his arm, to return to master but asking for ID just to make sure he had the right place.

A notary is verifying legal information via a courts requirements.  A notary does not come pounding at your door with a gun and handcuffs the authority to revoke your freedoms and arrest you. (or shoot you if you resist)

Well, in the instance where the cops came to my door, they weren't pounding with a gun and handcuffs. If they were pounding and waving a gun and handcuffs, that would change my perception of the OP. In fact, if they were waving a gun and handcuffs, I'd have my hands behind my head and be even more compliant.

you need to step further outside the box

I'll make this easy, maybe. We've both explained what we'd do and why. We're each within our rights to do what we say we'd do. In my case, not only is it hypothetical, but it's worked for me.

It wouldn't work for you. That's fine. Again, you're within your rights. It's a big world with room in it for a lot of different people.

NothingIsRealButTheGirl wrote:

If you have nothing to hide, why do you need the 5th amendment?

Interesting question.
"If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear".

Of course one could ask, "Why is the government trying to hide so much?" And why are the cops so afraid of having their actions documented?

The Grey Forest wrote:
Lohkee, what you're stating is showing ID - when in a public area when a citable offence has been committed.

The OP's was regarding when there Was No Cause for the police presence at a persons residence and demanding of "Papers" = violating their privacy and trespassing on private property.  Residential and Tenancy laws also revolve around right of privacy.  It was a 4th amendment rights violation if the Officer had no probable cause/or refused to provide one to account for their line of questioning and detention of a private citizen who was "at home minding their own business".

Its undue harassment = unless the Officer can prove they had reason.  And they MUST provide reason prior to any questioning.

The OP didn't say that in this hypothetical situation if the cop actually entered the property or not... it sounded like the cop didn't go past the front door.

The OP also didn't say if the hypothetical cop offered any reason for asking for the ID or not... was there a hunt going on in the neighborhood for a crazed carjacker that just fled on foot, or what was the reason for the visit?

Has anyone in this thread ever heard of cops knocking on doors and checking ID's when there wasn't a neighborhood fugitive search going on, or some complaint against the resident, checking in on someone who's on probation, or some such situation just out of the blue for no reason? I can't recall any such stories... ever.

The Grey Forest wrote:
Lohkee, what you're stating is showing ID - when in a public area when a citable offence has been committed.

The OP's was regarding when there Was No Cause for the police presence at a persons residence and demanding of "Papers" = violating their privacy and trespassing on private property.  Residential and Tenancy laws also revolve around right of privacy.  It was a 4th amendment rights violation if the Officer had no probable cause/or refused to provide one to account for their line of questioning and detention of a private citizen who was "at home minding their own business".

Its undue harassment = unless the Officer can prove they had reason.  And they MUST provide reason prior to any questioning.

Trouble is they are allowed to lie.

"Sir, we were called about a disturbance at this address."

Lohkee wrote:
I know this post won't sit well with many, and frankly, what I'm about to say kind of irritates me a little.

A wise man once said that the place to debate LEO is in the courtroom, not on a street corner.

I get (and support) the Constitutional rights thingy but I've learned over the years that how you respond to LEO sets the stage for whatever follows. If you're nice and friendly, they tend to react in much the same manner. I've been caught red-handed for minor traffic shit many times in my life. The worst that has happened is a lecture and warning to be a little more careful in the future. Had I been an asshole, spouted off about the gubment and my rights, things might not have gone so well (for me).

Showing my ID may (or not, depending on the state) be a proper request.

A smart woman once said "don't sweat the small stuff."

If LEO wants to know who you are, they will find out. How they find out is, well, up to you. Show them your ID, or get busted for some minor BS (that will get dropped before ever going to court), go to jail, get printed, and let them run your prints.

So, yeah, proper or not, LEO is welcome to see my ID. Hell, LEO is welcome to come inside and look around without a warrant if it makes them happy.

Jebus, I lead a really boring life. . . . . . . .

Which has nothing to do with them knocking on your door out of the blue.

Lightcraft Studio wrote:
Has anyone in this thread ever heard of cops knocking on doors and checking ID's when there wasn't a neighborhood fugitive search going on, or some complaint against the resident, checking in on someone who's on probation, or some such situation just out of the blue for no reason? I can't recall any such stories... ever.

Answer: Google it.  You have internet, try researching it sometime...

Cherrystone wrote:

http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/ronhuff.htm

"problems included negligence by criminal justice officials, coerced confessions, "frame ups" by guilty parties, and general overzealousness by officers and prosecutors"

And you believe when you get one of those off the reservation officers that not cooperating with him is the way to go?

Lohkee wrote:
I know this post won't sit well with many, and frankly, what I'm about to say kind of irritates me a little.

A wise man once said that the place to debate LEO is in the courtroom, not on a street corner.

I get (and support) the Constitutional rights thingy but I've learned over the years that how you respond to LEO sets the stage for whatever follows. If you're nice and friendly, they tend to react in much the same manner. I've been caught red-handed for minor traffic shit many times in my life. The worst that has happened is a lecture and warning to be a little more careful in the future. Had I been an asshole, spouted off about the gubment and my rights, things might not have gone so well (for me).

Showing my ID may (or not, depending on the state) be a proper request.

A smart woman once said "don't sweat the small stuff."

If LEO wants to know who you are, they will find out. How they find out is, well, up to you. Show them your ID, or get busted for some minor BS (that will get dropped before ever going to court), go to jail, get printed, and let them run your prints.

So, yeah, proper or not, LEO is welcome to see my ID. Hell, LEO is welcome to come inside and look around without a warrant if it makes them happy.

Jebus, I lead a really boring life. . . . . . . .

I agree.  And not to introduce an inadmissible soapbox topic here, there is an underlying question as to the reason for stop and frisk that I must introduce in order to respond completely.  I'm white and live (most of my life) in a predominately black and brown neighborhood.  My experience and observation is that nearly all of us cooperate fully and cheerfully with our local police officers, whatever our views on the subject.  Even the bad guys (except for drunks and damned fools) do so for the simple reason that it ultimately serves no purpose to mouth off.  Mostly, we go out of our way to be polite and supportive,in our daily interactions, commiserating with the lone patrolman on post in the middle of a snowstorm, throwing out a cheerful "Good Morning" when passing the bunch on the steps of the precinct house beside the subway station.  Nothing obsequious about it, just neighborliness.   And our local cops tend to return the favor-- you can almost gauge a rookie's time in the precinct by his willingness to join in.  As I say, just neighborliness.

So yes, absent any glaring abuse by the officer, I would produce my ID.  I'l also ask him why he needs to check and if there are any special steps I should be taking to protect myself and my family.  I'd also thank him for taking the time to check in and make sure that we're safe..  It's the neighborly thing to do.

Lovely Day Media wrote:
Suppose you're at home one day minding your own business and not making a whole bunch of noise. A police officer rings your doorbell. When you answer the door, they ask "are you _____________ (whatever your name is)?" You say yes, I am. They ask "can I see some ID?"

Do you A) say yes and hand it to them, B) say no, C) say no but have a good day (while closing the door), D) ask why they want to see your ID, or E) something else that I haven't thought about as yet?

Inquiring minds want to know.

There is a difference between providing your name and date of birth to police and providing the police a state issued form of ID.

In no state in America are people required to provide a state issued physical piece of ID to police unless they are operating a motor vehicle or in some cases carrying a concealed weapon.

The answer to your question though is F ) turn on video camera and do not answer the door

Herman Surkis wrote:
Trouble is they are allowed to lie.

"Sir, we were called about a disturbance at this address."

and here is the Crux of the problem.  Most people are under the illusion that officers are goody-two-shoes Protectors of the Public untainted knights of Right who do not / nor cannot lie !   They can and will and do lie on when its opportune to do so.

Its a job, supposedly to enforce the law - but a few get bored or overzealous at times and try to act as judge & jury to frame or fabricate scenarios or to center their aggravation of their job on some poor slob when they had a bad day.  Not everyone who wears a badge has or can retain the correct mindset for it duties.

Officers are allowed to lie about anyone or anything; then oddly, claim that they are telling the truth in a courtroom under oath ?  Yet if a citizen tells a lie, elaboration,small fib in any manner whatsoever = even unintentionally in the course of a conversation you can be arrested for lying to an officer or obstruction:  thus, do not talk to police ~ you can get yourself in all sorts of trouble just by opening your mouth, especially so if they are looking for an excuse.

Connor Photography wrote:

I would politely say: 
Sure Officer, there is no problem.  May I see your ID/credential , and where is your patrol car and partner? 

.

Yes, I would most certainly (if they did not immediately offer it first) ask for ID from them. After that, if I was sufficiently happy with it I would ask what it's regarding and proceed to co-operate.

K E E L I N G wrote:

And you believe when you get one of those off the reservation officers that not cooperating with him is the way to go?

I've seen first hand too many times over the years what some cops are capable of.

If one were to ask me a question that could even remotely involve me in their games, I have no idea whether they might be in the "some" category.

You can certainly roll over if you want, but I'll pass.

Cherrystone wrote:
Which has nothing to do with them knocking on your door out of the blue.

Depends on how you look at it. Also depends on how you respond. I've had LEO knock the door asking questions about something going down. In fact, I had LEO ask to search my property (they were looking for a carjacker who bailed after a high speed chase that they believed was in or on my property). Guess I could have been "uncooperative" and demanded a warrant but I choose the easier route. No warrant, I just asked if I could secure my dog before they turned the LEO-dogs loose (because I didn't want my dog to get injured if something went down). LEO was very nice. Once my dog was safe they yelled "Fresno PD! Come out with your hands in the air or we'll set the dogs loose!" LEO-dogs went through my house and then into the basement. The perp was hiding behind the garage. He made a run for it. Actually pretty impressive. He made it about two blocks before the dogs did, well, what LEO dogs do.That dude could freaking RUN! I don't imagine he was a happy camper though.

There are many shades of grey here.

JoJo wrote:
Pick one:
You have the right to pick your teeth up off of your front porch with your hands in handcuffs while waiting on transportation to the local jail.
or
You can make the cop's job a lot easier and disarm the situation by simply asking why as you produce your ID.

Look at a cop for a second... how much should a cop be paid to walk around with a bull's eye target on front and back in many cases?
Make the guy's job a little easier - let him know, in no uncertain terms, that his family will see him for dinner that night.

This comment is so out of line, it doesn't belong here   ...truly offensive behavior by a "Moderator"
you just reduced this point to a "Produce your papers or we will beat you senseless in your own home" as permissible violence by the police.  wtf ?

Justin wrote:
Now there is a middle ground of just acting how you feel is appropriate to the situation,

There's really not a middle ground in the OP's situation. You either produce your ID or you don't.

The Grey Forest wrote:
This comment is so out of line, it doesn't belong here   ...truly offensive behavior by a "Moderator"
you just reduced this point to a "Produce your papers or we will beat you senseless in your own home" as permissible violence by the police.  wtf ?

I think you missed her point my several miles.. . . . . . .

To everything - turn, turn, turn
There is a season - turn, turn, turn . . . . . .

Or, if you prefer country . . . . . .

You've got to know when to hold 'em
Know when to fold 'em
Know when to walk away
And know when to run
You never count your money
When you're sittin' at the table
There'll be time enough for countin'
When the dealin's done

Justin wrote:
Now there is a middle ground of just acting how you feel is appropriate to the situation,

Lightcraft Studio wrote:
There's really not a middle ground in the OP's situation. You either produce your ID or you don't.

Devil's in the details. Are they waving a gun and handcuffs? Or do they have Fido tucked under an arm? Or are they stern and authoritarian? Or relaxed and polite?

For those who occupy the philosophical middle ground, their reaction will probably depend on tone of the situation and not either just "never talk" or just "roll over."

Justin wrote:
If I need to have something notarized, the notary might ask me, "Are you Justin?" I say yes. The notary says, "May I see a photo ID?" It's not because the notary disbelieves me, necessarily. It's because establishing identity is a part of the notary's job.

A notary is just doing their job. It's the same (to me) as going to the DMV to register a car, renew a license or most anything else. They want to be sure they are issuing these legal documents to a person who has the legal right to possess them.  No notary is going to come to a person's door to ask if they are ________ and then ask for ID to prove it.

The last time I went to the ER, they asked me for ID. It was likely for billing purposes (if I defaulted on the bill, I wouldn't be able to say it wasn't me). I don't necessarily like these things but it happens. There was a time when I went to an ER 2 nights in a row.  The 2nd night I forgot my wallet at home so I had no ID. They treated me anyway. I'm sure that they'd be in deep fecal matter if they didn't treat a person because they didn't have ID.

As anti police as I am, I don't go out of my way to be impolite or unruly with them. I have actually gone out of my way to help on at least one occasion (long story). When they want to inconvenience or hassle me, that's when I'm not all that nice to them.

Lovely Day Media wrote:
Suppose you're at home one day minding your own business and not making a whole bunch of noise. A police officer rings your doorbell. When you answer the door, they ask "are you _____________ (whatever your name is)?" You say yes, I am. They ask "can I see some ID?"

Do you A) say yes and hand it to them, B) say no, C) say no but have a good day (while closing the door), D) ask why they want to see your ID, or E) something else that I haven't thought about as yet?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Your scenario is weird. You will need to install a screen door to your entry. It will need a simple hook with eyelet. My front door is a burglar proof door and requires a key to open, but it is in effect a screen door having a screen covering it.

At three in the morning I was awaken by a pounding sound, police, they wanted in. I simply did not ask the why question, I simply asked if they had a warrant. No came the answer and I told them good night! They continued demanding to open and let them in and I called 911 and asked what was going on and could they connect me to the supervisor. The dispatch could hear them but I continued to refuse them entry. No warrant, no open the door, even if it is a screen door. Make them break and enter, then have your attorney tell the judge for their arrest later.

Never argue with a cop, they are dogs on leashes. The court is the only authority that can un-arrest you, and you need to know that. When I say court I am referring to YOUR lawyer and the judge. I got this education from the Bexar County Sheriff.

Lohkee wrote:

Depends on how you look at it. Also depends on how you respond. I've had LEO knock the door asking questions about something going down. In fact, I had LEO ask to search my property (they were looking for a carjacker who bailed after a high speed chase that they believed was in or on my property). Guess I could have been "uncooperative" and demanded a warrant but I choose the easier route. No warrant, I just asked if I could secure my dog before they turned the LEO-dogs loose (because I didn't want my dog to get injured if something went down). LEO was very nice. Once my dog was safe they yelled "Fresno PD! Come out with your hands in the air or we'll set the dogs loose!" LEO-dogs went through my house and then into the basement. The perp was hiding behind the garage. He made a run for it. Actually pretty impressive. He made it about two blocks before the dogs did, well, what LEO dogs do.That dude could freaking RUN! I don't imagine he was a happy camper though.

There are many shades of grey here.

Read my first post in this thread.

JoJo wrote:
Pick one:
You have the right to pick your teeth up off of your front porch with your hands in handcuffs while waiting on transportation to the local jail.
or
You can make the cop's job a lot easier and disarm the situation by simply asking why as you produce your ID.

Look at a cop for a second... how much should a cop be paid to walk around with a bull's eye target on front and back in many cases?
Make the guy's job a little easier - let him know, in no uncertain terms, that his family will see him for dinner that night.

Seriously?

Tim Summa wrote:
At three in the morning I was awaken by a pounding sound, police, they wanted in. I simply did not ask the why question, I simply asked if they had a warrant. No came the answer and I told them good night! They continued demanding to open and let them in and I called 911 and asked what was going on and could they connect me to the supervisor. The dispatch could hear them but I continued to refuse them entry.

And the rest of the story is?

JoJo wrote:
Pick one:
You have the right to pick your teeth up off of your front porch with your hands in handcuffs while waiting on transportation to the local jail.
or
You can make the cop's job a lot easier and disarm the situation by simply asking why as you produce your ID.

.

How about this: the cop can go away mad or he can just go away?

Lovely Day Media wrote:
Suppose you're at home one day minding your own business and not making a whole bunch of noise. A police officer rings your doorbell. When you answer the door, they ask "are you _____________ (whatever your name is)?" You say yes, I am. They ask "can I see some ID?"

Do you A) say yes and hand it to them, B) say no, C) say no but have a good day (while closing the door), D) ask why they want to see your ID, or E) something else that I haven't thought about as yet?

Inquiring minds want to know.

This depends if you like giving out info and showing your papers when asked for no reason.
You opened the door.
Opening your door gives cops, in court, a way to say you invited them in, they thought they heard a scream, they smelled drugs, the saw something suspicious,  And judges usually agree with them.
DON'T open your door. Leave your door closed, and locked.
Talk through the closed/locked door.
If the cop threatens to break it down.
Tell them you don't allow anyone in the house without a warrant, so they'll have to break it down.
Remember, usually, If they had a warrant, they wouldn't be knocking, the door would already be off it's hinges.

Also, consulting with a lawyer in your area, about this very thing, can be beneficial to you.
KNOW your rights.
Exercise those rights.
Stand up for those rights.

rfordphotos wrote:
Oh--showed him my id and he asked if there WAS any trouble at the addy---told him no, and off he went.

And I was 100% polite---but firm. After all, its my home, I was inside, and KNEW I was causing no trouble.

My question to you is this: suppose it's true that there was a report filed of something going on at your address and this cop responds. How did he know you weren't lying to him about there being no trouble? Is it because you showed him your ID?

Suppose you had kidnapped 7 people and had them all tied up in your basement. Did he search the place? Did he ask to search the place? Or did he just take your word for it as you showed him your ID? Why did he need ID to "verify" who you are? He could've done the same thing quicker if he knocked on the door, you ask what he wants and he says there was a report of trouble here. You tell him there is no trouble without opening the door and he goes away.

Lovely Day Media wrote:
My question to you is this: suppose it's true that there was a report filed of something going on at your address and this cop responds. How did he know you weren't lying to him about there being no trouble? Is it because you showed him your ID?

Suppose you had kidnapped 7 people and had them all tied up in your basement. Did he search the place? Did he ask to search the place? Or did he just take your word for it as you showed him your ID? Why did he need ID to "verify" who you are? He could've done the same thing quicker if he knocked on the door, you ask what he wants and he says there was a report of trouble here. You tell him there is no trouble without opening the door and he goes away.

In this instance, I believe the "trouble" "reported" was supposed to be a break-in/burglary. Once I was properly identified as the homeowner he probably felt pretty comfortable there was no actual trouble.... I live alone so the house was quiet behind me.

If he had asked to come in and look around----chances are I would have let him (nothing to hide)....because I was comfortable with his assignment. If he had come to the door unannounced, and demanded access----with no real explanation---I would have asked for a warrant.

As for how he "knew" there was no real problem at the house--- one look at my cherubic, innocent face he was convinced I was a good guy.......(ok, maybe being old, fat and using a cane convinced him....)

Hunter  GWPB wrote:
Have heard of being "swated"?  Where someone calls the cops and tells them there is a guy in the house with a gun and he is threatening murder/suicide?  A friend's daughter was pissed that he threw her friends off the property and interrupted her drug deal.  His daughter got him arrested.  Told the cops he had a gun and he was waiting for them.

Hopefully once the cops had done their job, and all the facts got sorted out, the daughter who gave the false report causing the whole situation was dealt with appropriately.

Lightcraft Studio wrote:
Hopefully once the cops had done their job, and all the facts got sorted out, the daughter who gave the false report causing the whole situation was dealt with appropriately.

They jailed him for firearms charges.  He eventually got time served (9 months) and lots of probation.  The DA was pushing for 10 years (as a deal- 20 without a guilty plea) and a felony conviction.  The daughter was admitting she lied.  I went to one of the hearings and the ADA knew she was going to recant.  The ADA told her on the stand, if she changed her story, she would go to jail for perjury.  She didn't recant.  Eventually she got busted for drugs when the post office intercepted pot from CA.  Then the DA reduced the charges to a misdemeanor.  In the meantime, she robbed her dad blind.  DA never once asked for his side of the story.