Jules NYC wrote:

With you here except these two points.
Freelancers have periods of time without 'jobs'.

On assets: If you acquired x (house/car/etc.) through a divorce settlement and feel entitled that you have said possessions, that irks me.  I'd respect someone more if they bought something themselves.

Trust-fund: Technically one didn't work for it; it is owned by proxy.
Inheritance: Represents a lifetime of work.

Freelance counts as a job, because I'm a freelancer too

Jay  Edwards wrote:
Are you referring to the government?

ahem

I'm not at liberty to answer that out loud.

So sorry.

Ahem.

But the same thing probably applies to personal relationships, as is the topic of this thread. It's what we can expect from the degenerative side of human nature.

The aftermath for most people who win a big lotto is another example of the stress and disruption caused by the inability to manage money.

Raoul Isidro Images wrote:

Australia's wealthiest person.
Georgina Hope "Gina" Rinehart is an Australian mining heiress and Chairman of Hancock Prospecting group. She is the daughter of Lang Hancock and Hope Margaret Nicholas. Wikipedia
Born: February 9, 1954 (age 61), Perth, Australia
Net worth: 11.7 billion USD (2015) Forbes


Must be a tough cookie, eh?

She is estimated to become richer than Carlos Slim and Bill Gates mainly because she owns all her companies outright.

Click Hamilton wrote:
The aftermath for most people who win a big lotto is another example of the stress and disruption caused by the inability to manage money.

But we're only talking about money needed for a relationship, not big money. How much can a couple of burgers and a motel room cost?

Lightcraft Studio wrote:
But we're only talking about money needed for a relationship, not big money. How much can a couple of burgers and a motel room cost?

If it's not a matter of contention, not much.

Jay  Edwards wrote:

Are you referring to the government?

ahem

He must be thinking of Paris Hilton.

Koryn wrote:
Since the beginning of 2013, I have gone out with 14 different people for casual/get-to-know-you kind of dating - all over 25 years old, most of them late 20s through early 30s. All had some level of college education and all were employed full-time in "respectable" careers.

Only two of those people did not live with their parents, and ONE of those two apparently had a trust fund (or a significant amount of money from somewhere).

I'm not sure how you even meet truly "independent" people anymore. I've been on my own basically since I graduated high school. I've lived in some real dumps, and driven cars far past their expiration dates and people continue to tease me about the "ghetto" nature of my phone, my clothes and my computer, but hey, I have my pride.

I'd rather meet someone like you than one who won't grow up and leave home...I mean, since I've been on my own so long it would be hard to relate to someone who has never even had their own place, even a crappy apartment with a roommate.....just some attempt to grow up.

As far as independent guys, you're describing me and several of my friends, ages ranging from 20's to 40's...all of us like to get out, but where women are looking, usually they won't find us, or wouldn't notice us because of how shallow they are. Most of us are decent looking at least and make attempts to exercise and groom but are busy balancing life and career / business and don't have time to dedicate full time into personal care and be cupcakes with washboard abs, because the pressure of living expenses aren't on them. But we aren't slobs either, lol. Welp....cupcakes get noticed, chicks go to them and then complain that they're immature or assholes to them. Nero fiddled, George played golf.

Jules NYC wrote:
Being responsible is important in life.

Did you know that Marvin Gaye had to move in with his parent's for a bit to get his life in order?
His Dad shot him; guess that wasn't the best choice for him to re-organize his life.

Anyone can be in any situation at any time.
I bet most people would think this man was a total degenerate before he turned his life around.
Now I wonder if people would resent his financial success.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKNpsm8UmOI

Sometimes we all have to take a step back....but it's about trying. Not human condition. Watching the video....should be interesting

Jay Farrell wrote:

Sometimes we all have to take a step back....but it's about trying. Not human condition. Watching the video....should be interesting

Try not.
Do or do not.
There is no try.

- Yoda

Jules NYC wrote:

Try not.
Do or do not.
There is no try.

- Yoda

I see what you did Honestly I am happy for the guy....I can't first hand experience his problems but if it happens I can sympathize that it's not right. I'm glad he turned it around.

Jay Farrell wrote:
I see what you did Honestly I am happy for the guy....I can't first hand experience his problems but if it happens I can sympathize that it's not right. I'm glad he turned it around.

That guy inspired a movie:)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LynsFswk51Y

Do they need x in savings

Well, I used to think that didn't matter. It can, though. I don't have a dollar figure but I've accumulated certain dollar figures at various times. Dollar amounts aren't as much the concern as a more practical question of: "Does she have a savings of at least 2x her monthly expenses." Because if you don't have that, if you lose your job and wreck your car, you're fucked fast. It makes you more stressed in general and how that affects your decision-making in life and relationships… well, that does make a difference. It's nice to say it doesn't matter but it will.

So for me, she doesn't need to have that as much as being able to see the wisdom in getting to a better financial point. It might be that she and I can pool our resources and both reach better financial places. But if she's inclined to reckless financial outlooks, that is a problem.

Do they have to own property

It's a bonus, not a requirement.

Does it matter if they rent or have their own place at all

Given the above, it's more important that she has a place, not be with her parents (unless her parents own a comfortable place in which she lives on her own; that's not to be viewed askance, it's smart and practical).

Should they have lived at least once on their own

Yes.

Should they have lived at least once on their own without roommates

Not necessarily.

Do they need to make x at their job

For me, specific dollar figures miss the point. Even income brackets miss the point. In my opinion, it seems better to look at things in terms of debt-to-assets/income-to-expenses sort of approach. I haven't earned the most that I've ever earned in my life but I have the best savings in the two decades since graduating high school. I just made a conscious effort to cut extraneous expenses.

Which isn't to say I don't enjoy life and treat myself, because I do. It can be done. I just had to apply a discipline that I used to not have a long time ago.

Do they need to have a job at all

She does. If she does not, it's acceptable if she's working on a masters or something. Or recently – and, hopefully, voluntarily – unemployed and actively seeking work.

And for the sake of clarity: I do not categorize a freelance creative who is in-between gigs as "not having a job." I consider her as having a job and hunting the next gig. But she should be hunting.

Do they need a car

In NYC? No. In ATL where I currently live or in LA where I'm heading? It would put a drag on things if she did not.

Should they be debt-free

Well, I'm not debt-free so I can't knock a debt-free woman for turning me down. In fact, if I was seeing a woman with debt but she had A1 credit and she told me that my credit report was a deal breaker, I would not stop her. I know how I attained my current debt though (education) and why my credit looks like it does (irresponsible decisions during my 20s and early 30s). It depends on what type of debt she has and how she got it. Tens of thousands of dollars in credit card debt from living irresponsibly? I'll pass. Student loans? I understand. A car? I understand. A mortgage? I understand.

Not all debt is created equal.

If they have debt, how much is acceptable

I don't have a dollar amount. I've just completed grad school so I'll have to see how my student loan payments affect my life going forward before I can make an informed answer to that.

If they have assets, does it matter how they were acquired (divorce, trust-fund, inheritance, etc.)

I've never given that any thought. I come from an affluent family that left many assets between generations. I don't look down upon that. If she acquired it through a divorce, I'd be interested in how she handled it in the time since. Did she deplete it? Did she decide to just live off of it without working? If there's anything my family values it is working hard and not living off of generational inheritance but, rather, building upon it. I would have to make an evaluation of that.

Sabrina Maree wrote:
I'm more focused on what someone could become,but if they have nothing and nothing promising on the horizon, no, not happening. When I was younger looks could cover a variety of sins, but I'm 28 this month... things change with age.

Like someone else said, I'm an adult, and I'm a homebody at this point, I need comfort and security. I will be the first to admit I generally date well above my economic status, but the wealthiest men are never the ones I'm happiest with. I wish I was, I would have my life totally set by now if I could be more money-motivated. But I'm in a happy relationship with someone that makes around $80k.

I am not an easy person to date, so I have to look at the bigger picture

Jesus, this is scary and superficial.

Sabrina Maree wrote:
things change with age.

That's probably the biggest factor in all this.. age.

In my 20's most of the people in my sphere of friends were living paycheck-to-paycheck and renting. In my 30's most were in their first house, but still living paycheck-to-paycheck... but on the right trajectory to building a comfortable life down the road. In their 40's people are mostly at a point where they have a home with some equity and perhaps are now dabbling with their first investment property. Still living mostly paycheck-to-paycheck, but building more and more equity.

Some may earn more than others, or just have more than others for whatever reason. It doesn't matter if you're just dating for the fun of it, but for a serious relationship it does matter how they think about their situation. I think it's generally pretty easy after spending some time with someone to figure out if they're someone who's always plagued with results of poor choices, or if they're someone who has what it takes to weather life's storm which always strike from time to time.

Jay Farrell wrote:

Jesus, this is scary and superficial.

It is? I find her honesty rather refreshing.

Koryn wrote:
Since the beginning of 2013, I have gone out with 14 different people for casual/get-to-know-you kind of dating - all over 25 years old, most of them late 20s through early 30s. All had some level of college education and all were employed full-time in "respectable" careers.

Only two of those people did not live with their parents, and ONE of those two apparently had a trust fund (or a significant amount of money from somewhere)

I don't know even one single guy who lives with his parents. And I know men over various backgrounds, social/economic statuses, etc. Not one.

I don't know how over 80% of these guys you've met over the last year and a half have lived with their parents (with full-time income, no less) but that's not what I see. I don't understand where you're looking. I would also think that statistically, most men between ages 25-35 who have full-time employment are not living with their parents. I just don't understand how you can come across that many.

Kincaid Blackwood wrote:
I don't know even one single guy who lives with his parents. And I know men over various backgrounds, social/economic statuses, etc. Not one.

I don't know how over 80% of these guys you've met over the last year and a half have lived with their parents (with full-time income, no less) but that's not what I see. I don't understand where you're looking. I would also think that statistically, most men between ages 25-35 who have full-time employment are not living with their parents. I just don't understand how you can come across that many.

Most men from Italy live with their parents until they get married.
I'm not saying it's right or wrong or good or bad, I'm saying that a man that has never lived on his own would not understand the hardships one faces to keep it all going.

On that note... a man or woman that doesn't have the means to live independently puts a LOT of stock in someone if they are financially responsible for everything, esp. if said person doesn't work and there is a pre-nup absolving you from shit.  No one owes anybody anything but people get vicious with divorce.

Kincaid Blackwood wrote:
I would also think that statistically, most men between ages 25-35 who have full-time employment are not living with their parents.

My cousin who had lived with his girlfriend for a few years got abruptly dumped when she met someone else. He (being the "starving artist" type) was forced to move back home... but he was too proud to live IN the house so he lived in a tent about 100 feet from the house for a full year. He got his hot air balloon pilot's license and started a business and got back on his feet again after that.

Jay Farrell wrote:
Jesus, this is scary and superficial.

Please, extrapolate. Because I'm not following. I won't date someone without future plans and passions that will benefit them monetarily. This is superficial how? I think it's a pretty basic requirement. I won't date bum.

cue TLC's "No Scrubs"

Sabrina Maree wrote:
Please, extrapolate. Because I'm not following. I won't date someone without future plans and passions that will benefit them monetarily. This is superficial how? I think it's a pretty basic requirement. I won't date bum.

cue TLC's "No Scrubs"

I wish I could explain it well. The first paragraph and the second are very contrasting. Where it shifted from believing in what someone could be, to seemingly expecting a sugar daddy. That's just how it hit me. I get wanting some ambition, but economic class seems to be a stronger factor here. Not that it should matter what I think, was just my reaction.

Kincaid Blackwood wrote:
I don't know even one single guy who lives with his parents. And I know men over various backgrounds, social/economic statuses, etc. Not one.

I don't know how over 80% of these guys you've met over the last year and a half have lived with their parents (with full-time income, no less) but that's not what I see. I don't understand where you're looking. I would also think that statistically, most men between ages 25-35 who have full-time employment are not living with their parents. I just don't understand how you can come across that many.

About 18% of men 25-34 in the US live with their parents.

Jules NYC wrote:
What about pre-nups?

You need two lawyers. One lawyer draws up an agreement; the other criticizes it. They negotiate for hours and hours. The bill gets larger and larger. The end result: No pre-nup as the lawyers can't comprise and both of the two lovers declare bankruptcy due to the enormous legal bills.

Rots of ruck!   

Jules NYC wrote:
I've been tossing around ideas of personal responsibility and people's relationship with money.  I've known people of all walks of life, with different past and present lifestyles... of course, all variable to change.  A lot of people are living paycheck to paycheck, others with a savings, big or small.  I'm very curious how people feel about money because the more I talk to people, I'm amazed at what the answers are as I pose these questions.

How important is money to you in a serious relationship?  Before you join forces marriage/living together, whatever the scenario it is for you... are these things important or not important for you?

Do they need x in savings
Do they have to own property
Does it matter if they rent or have their own place at all
Should they have lived at least once on their own
Should they have lived at least once on their own without roommates
Do they need to make x at their job
Do they need to have a job at all
Do they need a car
Should they be debt-free
If they have debt, how much is acceptable
If they have assets, does it matter how they were acquired (divorce, trust-fund, inheritance, etc.)

I've always thought that mutual work ethics was more important that amount of salary or wages. However since I'm not longer in a poverty income anymore I realize that it might be a factor if a guy has an ego
In my recent friendship were he decided to bail on our date or intimacy last minute it may have been a  factor. The guy was a hard worker, (I value,)  yet  broke which didn't bother me. I value hard work and he was also very frugal and not taking advantage. I think it backfired on me that I bought his airfare and covered most costs while he was here. So, I think it is a factor for some egos. I knew he was broke so Iupgraded the ticket to first class so food and drinks would be included, (however I didn't let him know those came with first class and he didn't ask for any food or drinks!) Different paradigm.

For me, the only determining factor is that someone have a mutual work ethic, a mutual credit ethic and that is all. I come from a history of poverty but am not poor anymore so I do not necessarily think I'd be comfortable with someone who takes money for granted but, likewise am not necessarily comfortable with someone who is afraid of it either.
Jen
P.s. so compatability of a lot of things comes into relationships, right? Argh that when I was broke I couldn't get a date because of being too busy working, (and someone once told me that they thought Iwas out of their league with my looks but I didn't think so,) now I'm out of league with salary, argh! The most important thing for compatability is a health mindsent and attitude I think.
P.p.s. I've tried to move into dating 3 friends in the last year and 2 of them were working hard, both in poverty, one working for wages and also his passion and the other just in his passion while  living of of next to nothing. Its not like Iwas trying to make either "kept"men and I don't want a guy who would ask me to carry everything to him out without conscience, (I've seen many nurses fall for leeches,) however I was willing within reason but, it can seriously affect a guys ego and that won't work either. There has to be mutuality and enough common ground to be together, (no enabling nor dependancy but mutuality.)

Jules NYC wrote:
Don't you think a person that has a constant stream of money coming in for life would not be privy to the stresses/reality of a person whose income is not guaranteed for life?

I'm not talking a lotto ticket here.

Lay-offs/getting fired/contracts ending
Freelance - little work/slow period

Not everyone has a steady 9-5 that they feel secure enough in to work for 20+ years...30+ years, etc.

Not that I am a fatalist or anything but, there are no gaurantees in life and I see all of us as being equally vulnerable to povety and ill health. Sure we can have a nice plan and work for 20-30 years yet, still it isn't a guarantee.

I think resiliency, work ethic and attitude are far more important than bank balance or belongings. I could live in a tar paper shack with the right person and be glad for it or live  in a swanky place with the wrong person and regret it.

Jen

Sabrina Maree wrote:
I'm more focused on what someone could become,but if they have nothing and nothing promising on the horizon, no, not happening. When I was younger looks could cover a variety of sins, but I'm 28 this month... things change with age.

Like someone else said, I'm an adult, and I'm a homebody at this point, I need comfort and security. I will be the first to admit I generally date well above my economic status, but the wealthiest men are never the ones I'm happiest with. I wish I was, I would have my life totally set by now if I could be more money-motivated. But I'm in a happy relationship with someone that makes around $80k.

I am not an easy person to date, so I have to look at the bigger picture

Ouch, you mean your a BBD person? Bigger better deal. Well, then you are looking to date people who are looking for your type. Good luck to you.

It is not fulfilling enough for me and I feel bad for the guys who are looking for more but get taken by someone who only sees their pay. Hope he doesn't get sick or loose his job on you, (er, well, you'll be find because you'll find a BBD but, he won't.)

Jen

Sabrina Maree wrote:

Please, extrapolate. Because I'm not following. I won't date someone without future plans and passions that will benefit them monetarily. This is superficial how? I think it's a pretty basic requirement. I won't date bum.

cue TLC's "No Scrubs"

You are a BBD person, that is all. Not looking for a real life person to join but someone who you can consume.

Thats what Ithink he meant. Its what I percieve.

I've been with someone who was "consuming" there was a book out that Ionce heard of called, "Without conscience" which described people who consume others as doing it as if they walked up, tood a bite of an apple and then put it down and walked away. Yeah, I'm not an apple and neither is anyone else.

Best to you,
Jen
P.s. pity to them unless they are a personality disordered person who wants to be with someone they can control due to this aggreement, then great for the codependency or 'perfect match.'

Jules NYC wrote:

This is my goal.  I live for freedom; I am the wind. 
I won't make car payments; I'll buy a used car in cash... always.

My brother (who has a VERY steady, good job) laughed at me when I said I want to buy a house in cash.  I totally mean it.  Interest alone on a mortgage is insane.

INSANE!

My thought is that I won't buy property unless I can pay at least 80% in cash.  Blame it on Dave Ramsey and common sense "Financial Peace University."
Jen

Nor-Cal Photography wrote:

You need two lawyers. One lawyer draws up an agreement; the other criticizes it. They negotiate for hours and hours. The bill gets larger and larger. The end result: No pre-nup as the lawyers can't comprise and both of the two lovers declare bankruptcy due to the enormous legal bills.

Rots of ruck!   

I honestly don't believe in pre-nups (I'm insane I guess or extremely idealistic).
It's a very smart thing to do, but you're already going in like "hey if this doesn't work out..." but that's the entire point!

What's interesting is having protection of what you 'can' earn.  You can have -0- in hyperbole but if you have the potential earning power of (x, y, z) well then, damn!

I honestly believe no one would really know how much I'm true to my word unless things went to shit, but at heart I'm not a malicious, vindictive person.  If I really love someone and it didn't work out, I certainly wouldn't want them to have a shitty life. It's hard to admit but I'm the one who usually does the 'leaving' not that it matters.

Here's a movie about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdUZV8flgbA

and here's my boy Tom on it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qaK9Zl18Q4

Jen B wrote:

I've always thought that mutual work ethics was more important that amount of salary or wages. However since I'm not longer in a poverty income anymore I realize that it might be a factor if a guy has an ego
In my recent friendship were he decided to bail on our date or intimacy last minute it may have been a  factor. The guy was a hard worker, (I value,)  yet  broke which didn't bother me. I value hard work and he was also very frugal and not taking advantage. I think it backfired on me that I bought his airfare and covered most costs while he was here. So, I think it is a factor for some egos. I knew he was broke so Iupgraded the ticket to first class so food and drinks would be included, (however I didn't let him know those came with first class and he didn't ask for any food or drinks!) Different paradigm.

For me, the only determining factor is that someone have a mutual work ethic, a mutual credit ethic and that is all. I come from a history of poverty but am not poor anymore so I do not necessarily think I'd be comfortable with someone who takes money for granted but, likewise am not necessarily comfortable with someone who is afraid of it either.
Jen
P.s. so compatability of a lot of things comes into relationships, right? Argh that when I was broke I couldn't get a date because of being too busy working, (and someone once told me that they thought Iwas out of their league with my looks but I didn't think so,) now I'm out of league with salary, argh! The most important thing for compatability is a health mindsent and attitude I think.
P.p.s. I've tried to move into dating 3 friends in the last year and 2 of them were working hard, both in poverty, one working for wages and also his passion and the other just in his passion while  living of of next to nothing. Its not like Iwas trying to make either "kept"men and I don't want a guy who would ask me to carry everything to him out without conscience, (I've seen many nurses fall for leeches,) however I was willing within reason but, it can seriously affect a guys ego and that won't work either. There has to be mutuality and enough common ground to be together, (no enabling nor dependancy but mutuality.)

This is all very interesting.

The most important thing to me is someone who is honest and has a strong work ethic.  Same holds true if someone is on retirement, etc. or anything that one wouldn't have to 'clock in' every day.

I dated a guy once that made a big deal out of a woman he used to date that made $150 an hour doing some computer shit in the city.  I can honestly admit, his admiration of she making so much money really made me feel bad about myself. I can make good money when I have a regular 9-5 but why that woman was brought up so many times and the $ just started to sicken me.  I don't competing with anyone and certainly NOT about anything, including money.  I just had enough of that kind of talk and from there on out, was becoming disgusted.

Turned out the guy resented where he was living and his galley kitchen (at the Mom's condo).  I thought to myself, where is the gratitude?  What arrogance/entitlement!  That condo certainly wasn't cheap given the neighborhood and if he didn't like it, he could actually get a job and live somewhere that was acceptable to his liking!

My Dad instilled a very strong work ethic in me long ago and I'm so glad he did.  I learned appreciation and how to truly share when I was 15.

Jen, kudos on your vocation & modeling.  You'd make a very nice date for a smart, kind man.

Jen B wrote:
I think resiliency, work ethic and attitude are far more important than bank balance or belongings. I could live in a tar paper shack with the right person and be glad for it or live  in a swanky place with the wrong person and regret it.

Jen

This.

Sabrina Maree wrote:
Please, extrapolate. Because I'm not following. I won't date someone without future plans and passions that will benefit them monetarily. This is superficial how? I think it's a pretty basic requirement. I won't date bum.

cue TLC's "No Scrubs"

I remember that TLC song; I bought the CD when it came out, ha ha.  I related to the song because I was going out with a guy that fit that narrative, one of many that I've dated in the past.

I think there is nothing wrong with your wish to be with someone who has the same ambitions as you do.  We generally try to align ourselves with people of equal intelligence, looks, social views, etc.  It's a proven scientific fact.

I'm with a man right now that doesn't have the same educational, social, etc. background as me and honestly, it doesn't matter.  He can be so incredibly hilarious and makes me feel like a superstar.  For a while I had to deeply consider that I may not have the lifestyle I'd ideally want but his heart and honor supersedes all that.

Who knows, maybe we'll be the next famous heavy metal band, ha ha.

I started this thread because he with his modest lifestyle/possessions/etc. is challenging the way I think about my own personal needs/wants and overall financial responsibility.

I checked out your profile and with your locale/creds/etc. I'm sure you can date a variety of men.  I used to live in Hollywood myself, I get the drift.  Thing I would be mindful of, is the men you may date.  It can be superficial in Hollywood and what may seem wonderful at the moment may not be lasting.  That is NOT to say that a genuine, beautiful person can't be 'rich' or well-off or the salary of 80K or more. 

It's just when you go in with that mind-set, you may not think of a set of variables that may affect you later when you're not in the exact same stature as you are now.  I'm not suggesting that people lose anything when they get older, but just be mindful that the men you may date may be impressed with one facet of everything you are.

Jen B wrote:

My thought is that I won't buy property unless I can pay at least 80% in cash.  Blame it on Dave Ramsey and common sense "Financial Peace University."
Jen

I used to work as a Mortgage Underwriter and was SHOCKED to see the 'Truth In Lending' (TIL) with property.  I figure, why do you need it 'right now' when you can live modestly and just buy most of it later and have the freedoms of travel, creativity, etc. instead of being on lock-down with a mortgage!

Mortonovich wrote:
The thing is, life sometimes goes sideways. Really good talented hard working people that pull down
good incomes can have things go wrong due to no fault of their own. What is the other half going to
do in that situation? Bail out for the next red carpet? If so, fuck them. Give them a ham sandwich
and a road map.

Yes I agree, hence the great need for a savings. 

That is the entire concept, two people have to think about each other, whatever lifestyle it is. 
There is nothing wrong with any scenario really if two people accept it. 

The reality of any coupling and any money situation is that life can turn on the drop of a dime for the better or worse.  All I know is that it's important for me for someone to be responsible and cares about my happiness & future.  I do the same for my partner.

I think women get a bad rap for being honest for having a standard.  It goes both ways.

Jules NYC wrote:

I can remember as clear as day how a few boyfriends took advantage of my generous nature.  How can a person feel appreciative when everything is so easy for them?

Three things I can't stand, injustice, hypocrisy & selfishness.
I'm experiencing all three right now and doing some hardcore evaluation here.

Dang. Jules, he is not your equal in any way at all then.
Jen