Thomas Van Dyke wrote:

Tenured wisdom from a feminine vantage perspective...

Sad that no one responsding is offering a possible solution,,,
For what it's worth...
To fix this anomaly I would like to offer the following suggestions:
1. Make the model's forum be read only for photographers...
2. Have a setting choice on a model's profile which makes it invisible to photographers with any +18 images

However the real solution is to adapt Facebook's image standard on nudity...
This will likely drive the riffraff and lower forms off Mayhem making it a far more inviting place for young female talent...

The issue is far deeper than just the Model's forum in my humble estimation

btw, I've already adopted Facebook imagery standards for my Mayhem presence...
And you? Are you part of the problem or part of the solution?

"If you love life, don't waste time, for time is what life is made up of." -Bruce Lee

So we are starting this nonsense again.  This must be the anniversary of the last debacle.

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:
But I guess you must be in that 1%?

No, SHE is not in the 1%, since she is not male.

And she was a long time model for years before she became a photographer, always gave great advice, was always willing to help out, and was very well respected.

She has been on this site since the beginning and has seen a lot change over the years.

She was also a Mod for awhile.

Curious why you assumed she was a male...

udor wrote:
Just quoting the whole post, because I am too lazy to delete stuff.

I don't know the representation models in France that are members of MM, so, I can't talk directly about your individual experience... but what I can talk about is the incredible fallacies in your rant!

There are many brick and mortar, even top tier agency models on MM, but those are very often in geographic areas that are fashion centers or where there is a big demand for commercial models. However, most of the models won't advertise on their profile which agency they are with, since many agencies don't want their models to have a profile on MM.

Nobody, not photographers or models are so incredibly busy that they don't have a social media presence or have time to be on MM. If you think so, then you really have absolutely no idea about the realities of the modeling industry.

That's all for now.

Thanks for your answer.

I checked your page and I like your work and your pick of models. I checked a few and most of them aren't tagged so I suppose they aren't on this site.

Then I checked what I think is the most beautiful model on your page: https://www.modelmayhem.com/2568087

Last time she was active on this site: Oct 2012. After that apparently she didn't have time for Model Mayhem anymore. This proves my point doesn't it? She is agency material.

Most of the models I work with come from the UK and eastern-Europe and Russia and especially the eastern-European models don't use sites like this and can be booked through agencies only. There are a few exceptions of course and I do find good models on this site but I have to wander through tons of pages and then go through lot of communications which often lead to nowhere.

I can also spend one hour going trough the pages on the site of an agency, make a selection, contact the agency about availability, pick dates, et voila, a few weeks later I pick the model up at the airport and 2 hours later I'm shooting. Agency models also are more motivated.

Rieni Otten wrote:
Thanks for your answer.

I checked your page and I like your work and your pick of models. I checked a few and most of them aren't tagged so I suppose they aren't on this site.

Then I checked what I think is the most beautiful model on your page: https://www.modelmayhem.com/2568087

Last time she was active on this site: Oct 2012. After that apparently she didn't have time for Model Mayhem anymore. This proves my point doesn't it? She is agency material.

Well, if you take a look at Patricia's age, you see that she is 29 now. she is also really closer to 6'1" which in combination makes her really tough to market to agencies. She tried when she came to NYC and with some European agencies. So, now she retired and pursues her career as a licensed cosmetologist in Switzerland.

I usually credit all the models I have worked with, but there has been glitches in the MM system from time to time, and I see that credits disappeared.

I put out casting calls from time to time for editorials, designer lookbooks and fashion shows. The responses have been usually so overwhelming that I had to establish a dedicated gmail address just for casting calls, because otherwise, the responses would clutter up my regular email.

But, I am in NYC, which has one of the biggest markets, with the most talent in our region.

That's why I said that the region and market you are in are very important for casting success.

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:

But I guess you must be in that 1%?

She used to be a model.  i photographed her at that time.

Dea and the Beast wrote:
Bc I'm busy eating a bag of dicks.

Enjoy!   

Dea and the Beast wrote:
Bc I'm busy eating a bag of dicks.

Pictures or it's a lie.

(Also <3 )

BeatnikDiva wrote:
Pictures or it's a lie.

(Also <3 )

I would like some pictures too, (I'd to see what that looks like).
-Don

Dea and the Beast wrote:
Bc I'm busy eating a bag of dicks.

   Dare I ask ...

BeachBoudoir wrote:
I've found the ones that complain the most about how "toxic" the environment is on these boards are some of the biggest contributors to the toxic levels. They can't take disagreement so it gets interpreted as an attack, and they then lash out which creates a vicious cycle. They become the very thing they complain about.

Simple fact is most models probably don't even know there is a forum. They have lives and are on Instagram, Snapchat and Facebook.

I also think it's a fallacy models trying to make this into a sexist thing. If they would visit the photography section, photographers disagree and attack each other there. Some people just can't handle disagreement or blunt talk.

retired light reflector wrote:

Thank you for making my point.

BeachBoudoir wrote:

Thank you for making my point.

You made your own point by posting about it in another thread?

The whole point I was trying to make is that we should be more inclusive of different ways of working/having a hobby since MM has much more than "professionals", and no professional runs their business exactly the same. I pointed out how certain phrases were problematic and came across as condescending. In the end it ran it's course and the conversation was done. That's a debate. Everything should be subject to questions and challenges; and everyone should be open to be challenged and questioned. I don't believe I'm always right, and nobody else is either. I'd rather question someone's post and debate about it than assume someone meant one thing when they just worded it incorrectly or in an inflammatory way. That's the point I was trying to get across.

retired light reflector wrote:

You made your own point by posting about it in another thread?

The whole point I was trying to make is that we should be more inclusive of different ways of working/having a hobby since MM has much more than "professionals", and no professional runs their business exactly the same. I pointed out how certain phrases were problematic and came across as condescending. In the end it ran it's course and the conversation was done. That's a debate. Everything should be subject to questions and challenges; and everyone should be open to be challenged and questioned. I don't believe I'm always right, and nobody else is either. I'd rather question someone's post and debate about it than assume someone meant one thing when they just worded it incorrectly or in an inflammatory way. That's the point I was trying to get across.

I clarified my statements when you questioned them and explained my advice was to a narrow portion of the membership here who are trying to make a living with photography, agreed with other points you made yet you were still  argumentative. Now you are taking that argument you had with me from that thread to over here. My advice is/was based on actually trying them in the real world and knowing what works and what doesn't. It doesn't apply to hobbyists and my definition of "professional" is someone who wants to make a living, not a general acting professional.  You took that as condescending. You and others are free to try whatever you feel is best for you. People can take it or leave it. I am flattered you think my opinion matters that much that you follow me to another thread to continue your arguments. Have a nice day.

retired light reflector wrote:
Some people can't handle disagreement or blunt talk indeed.

QFT

Christopher Carter wrote:
I'm still leaning towards all their grandmothers died.

I was interviewed for a new magazine, which is the off-spring of Fashion Avenue News Magazine and BTE TV. No biggie, just real fashion people, for whom I shot all kinds of stuff, from NYFW to celebrities.




One of the interview questions relates to your opinion and here is what I answered:     


11. What do you do when a person cancels at the last minute?
A. I pray that her grandma comes back to life again, soon! 

udor wrote:

I was interviewed for a new magazine, which is the off-spring of Fashion Avenue News Magazine and BTE TV. No biggie, just real fashion people, for whom I shot all kinds of stuff, from NYFW to celebrities.




One of the interview questions relates to your opinion and here is what I answered:     


11. What do you do when a person cancels at the last minute?
A. I pray that her grandma comes back to life again, soon! 

retired light reflector wrote:
How did that saying even become a thing? I was working a lot of days family members died, including my father.

It's not even that funny of a joke. It just bolsters the idea that models are generally young, stupid, and flaky, and removes any possible blame from the flaked-on party.

Because it's an excuse used when a model flakes, and then explains 3 months later why they couldn't make the shoot.

Dead family is not a joke.

But the excuses people come up with to act like they didn't flake, is.

Christopher Carter wrote:

Because it's an excuse used when a model flakes, and then explains 3 months later why they couldn't make the shoot.

Dead family is not a joke.

But the excuses people come up with to act like they didn't flake, is.

How many times have you personally been told that someone's grandma died?

I've gotten car troubles, wrote down the wrong date, being sick. Nobody I've ever worked with used the grandma excuse. (I've shot female models, too)

udor wrote:

I was interviewed for a new magazine, which is the off-spring of Fashion Avenue News Magazine and BTE TV. No biggie, just real fashion people, for whom I shot all kinds of stuff, from NYFW to celebrities.




One of the interview questions relates to your opinion and here is what I answered:     


11. What do you do when a person cancels at the last minute?
A. I pray that her grandma comes back to life again, soon! 

LOL, Yes!   

Seems like only a direct impact to the head can keep Grandma's from coming back from the dead. 

retired light reflector wrote:

How many times have you personally been told that someone's grandma died?

I've gotten car troubles, wrote down the wrong date, being sick. Nobody I've ever worked with used the grandma excuse. (I've shot female models, too)

I gotten it. I was kind of speechless when she told me. I didn't think that was really used.

I gave her the benefit of the doubt when she said she would contact me to reschedule, but she never did.

retired light reflector wrote:
How did that saying even become a thing? I was working a lot of days family members died, including my father.

It's not even that funny of a joke. It just bolsters the idea that models are generally young, stupid, and flaky, and removes any possible blame from the flaked-on party.

edit:

First off, I apologize for replying without realizing you said you were working the day your father died. Condolences.

my reply:

Until the same model uses that excuse, (for more grandmas a person usually has, ) with the same group of photographers who know each other and end up inadvertently comparing notes.

retired light reflector wrote:
How many times have you personally been told that someone's grandma died?

I've gotten car troubles, wrote down the wrong date, being sick. Nobody I've ever worked with used the grandma excuse. (I've shot female models, too)

The closest to that I have gotten is:

"My aunt was in a car accident."

"I was in the hospital and couldn't log into MM" But her message was read on the day of the shoot and she must have been really sick because it was weeks after, that she explained.

Fact is, most don't even bother to explain or apologize.  And that is okay.  I have very limited funds to invest in models.  If someone flakes, that just gives me a greater opportunity to shoot with a serious model. 

I got one recently that said, "I don't know why I didn't see this before."  Four months after I contacted her.  Oh well, I might work with her anyway.  Or I might not, because I found a rattlesnake in the location where I was going to shoot with her and I am not mean enough to take that chance.


Sorry, I digress.  This isn't a flake thread.  We can encourage new or experienced models to participate in the forums by taking the time to actually invite them to participate, via tag, email, or via the newbie thread, if and when they post to say hi.  And the announcements.

Ultimately, the forums are what we make of them.  It doesn't matter what they use to be; just like it doesn't matter that I used to have a swimmer's physique.  People will like or dislike me based on what I say and do here.  They will like or dislike the forums based on the behavior of the individuals and/or the group.  It's life.  I believe that I have been more forthcoming than required from time to time and sometimes too timid.  It is a fine line to not chase people away and not be walked on at the same time.

What would happen if each of us goes into the newbie forum and invites two people a day to join us in the forums?

Edit:
I will also point out, that there are threads I will read because of who last posted in them.  Click, Udor, Studio 36, Zack, Jen B, Koryn, DespareFX, Ray and several others.  I have grown to respect many members simply by their posts, thoughts, reasoning and attitude.  There are also a few for whom the antithesis is true.

Hunter  GWPB wrote:
...
What would happen if each of us goes into the newbie forum and invites two people a day to join us in the forums?

Hunter,

Slight glitzch. The newbie forum is in the forums.

I didn't know there were forums at first and when I first came for a look it was so fast a thread would be on page three before I could come back the same day to reply.

Jen

Christopher Carter wrote:
Because it's an excuse used when a model flakes, and then explains 3 months later why they couldn't make the shoot.

Dead family is not a joke.

But the excuses people come up with to act like they didn't flake, is.

retired light reflector wrote:
How many times have you personally been told that someone's grandma died?

I've gotten car troubles, wrote down the wrong date, being sick. Nobody I've ever worked with used the grandma excuse. (I've shot female models, too)

Once in 2009, in about the span of a week or week and a half, I had 3 photographers cancel on me all with the same excuse - their wives were having surgery.

The medical industry must have been making a fortune that week.

Figures Jen B wrote:
Hunter,

Slight glitzch. The newbie forum is in the forums.

I didn't know there were forums at first and when I first came for a look it was so fast a thread would be on page three before I could come back the same day to reply.

Jen

It is a frustrating catch 22 kind of thing.  They have to find us to use us for us to invite them.  However, many post once in the newbies, get two or three responses over several days- few of which say anything other than and welcome (Which I do as well), so it isn't much of an encouragement.

I will also say that I suggest they read the forums so that they may avoid some issues.  In times past, I suggested they read and not post too much until they learned the way the place works.  That may still be good advice but it seems less pertinent now.

(Missed you for a while in the forums.  Hope you are well!)

Hunter  GWPB wrote:
It is a frustrating catch 22 kind of thing.  They have to find us to use us for us to invite them.  However, many post once in the newbies, get two or three responses over several days- few of which say anything other than and welcome (Which I do as well), so it isn't much of an encouragement.

I will also say that I suggest they read the forums so that they may avoid some issues.  In times past, I suggested they read and not post to much until they learned the way the place works.  That may still be good advice but it seems less pertinent now.

(Missed you for a while in the forums.  Hope you are well!)

side bar- all is well, busy working summer, (day job,) and then first non modeling vacation since I came here!

retired light reflector wrote:
How many times have you personally been told that someone's grandma died?

I've gotten car troubles, wrote down the wrong date, being sick. Nobody I've ever worked with used the grandma excuse. (I've shot female models, too)

I guess that means it's never happened.

While i have not personally gotten that excuse, I have gotten similar ones. And I have friends who've gotten it.

My favorite is when a model gives a BS excuse to one photographer to get out of a shoot so they can work with me, not realizing I am friends with the photographer they canceled on.

Then they cancel on me, and tell the photographer some story about how I made them cancel. And that photographer tells me.

Some people will say and do anything to get their way.

Christopher Carter wrote:
Some people will say and do anything to get their way.

Yes, people. Not just models. I've experienced from make up artists, photographers, artists, models...

Flakiness is not a trait exclusive to models, but it sure is the hot topic in the forums. I don't think models are any better or worse than other creative types. And honestly, there's usually signs right away that someone will be unreliable, so I just won't book them in the first place.

retired light reflector wrote:

Yes, people. Not just models. I've experienced from make up artists, photographers, artists, models...

Flakiness is not a trait exclusive to models, but it sure is the hot topic in the forums. I don't think models are any better or worse than other creative types. And honestly, there's usually signs right away that someone will be unreliable, so I just won't book them in the first place.

Isn't it amazing, once you have been here awhile, you can tell almost immediately if someone is serious or not?

Its not across the board true, and there are those that surprise you, but there certainly are red flags that pop up pretty quickly.

Greg Kolack wrote:

Isn't it amazing, once you have been here awhile, you can tell almost immediately if someone is serious or not?

Its not across the board true, and there are those that surprise you, but there certainly are red flags that pop up pretty quickly.

Absolutely!