Model Sarah wrote:
When I went to Europe I was flown there and paid my rate, which I heard from European models is a rare event. I had to basically convince a ton of photographers that 1. I don't live here so you'll never get a chance to work with me again. 2. The cost it was for me to get to them from here. 3. You're paying for a look and talent. I'm very passionate about what I do and my rate reflects all of these things.

As a photographer/customer there are only two relevant criteria for me. Regardless whether a model comes from the next block or from overseas...

Nº1: Do I think the specific model is worth her/his price?

If don't think so criterion Nº2 becomes meaningless.

Nº2: Can I afford the payment I would have to pay for this specific model?

It's as simple as this. Nº2 may depend of a budget. It may depend on personal interest. (That kind of interest an artist have, of course... ;-] Not an indecent interest...)

As far as I have an insight models from the USA often are astonished about actually paid model rates in Europe which are lower than in the US. And models from Europe often are astonished about the efforts of travelling in the US. Personal experience from one or two trips should adjust this quickly. So or so anybody's calculation has to work out at the end of the day. Working internationally can be great and a priceless benefit but it's also a pain in the ass when it comes to paperwork. At least if you want to keep it legal. And it is much more demanding because you have to plan and settle and check things for a foreign culture and maybe in foreign language or with non english native speakers. You have to understand foreign railways systems, strange customs, and so on.

___________________________

When it comes to "2257 issues" you may relax as a US model working in most parts of Europe. We do not have such weird legislation.

To shoot nude images (including "porn", "adult", XXX) legally to have to be 18 years old. And that's it.

When it comes to German law you even do not have to sign a model release because accepting a payment for modelling is regarded as consent to publication. But of course it's a good idea to sign a model release and most photographers will require you to sign a model release. "ID shots" are not required by German law because it's not the photographer/customer who has to prove that the model was adult as the time of shooting but the prosecuter would have to prove the model wasn't.
(Some special regulations apply for pornographic images if these images show people who obviously seem to be minors. But then all model releases and ID shots will not help you, either. Then it's the question how old they look like - not how old they are...)

A photographer/customer may want to have a look at the model's ID card/passport to make sure that the model is not providing false information. Whether you write down the data given in the ID card or make an ID shot is your choice. (Except you model has a German ID card or passport - it's illegal in Germany to demand a photocopy/scan of the ID card if you are not explicitely entitled to do so by law. As the banking business is for instance. Nevertheless the model is free to give you a copy or pose for an ID shot if you ask friendly... Yes, we can invent weird laws, too... Oh yeah!)

So working with US (Canadian, Australian, ...) nude models here in Europe seems to be much more uncomplicated than vice versa. (Except they need a work visa/work permit which will we rather difficult to obtain...)

Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
As an American photographer shooting in the Czech Republic for commercial purposes (which you are doing), you must have a Czech work permit. If you get caught working on a Tourist Visa, you will have some legal problems.

Even if you do obtain a work permit and legally shoot Czech models for publication, their ID's will not be accepted as valid in the USA.

Ken Marcus, Jan 08 16 06:09 pm, in MM forums

Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
I qualify as someone that has shot for Playboy, Penthouse, Hustler, Taboo and many other magazines . . . . . They all require very comprehensive 2257 forms and proof of ID and legal status.

If the photos are taken here in the USA, the model MUST qualify under 2257 regulations . . . . a US issued work permit, a government issued ID or Drivers License is required.

A foreign ID or Passport is only recognized if the photos are taken in the models home country and then the images are brought back into the US for publication.

I have been doing this for many years and attended many conferences, seminars, and meetings with the FBI inspectors . . . . I think I know what I am talking about.

Ken Marcus, Feb 23 12 11:36 pm in MM forums

Now I'm confused...

Herman Surkis wrote:
I think we can all agree that North American models working in Europe will tend to be more mature, or become so quickly, than their counterparts back home. And vice-versa. And for all the reasons already pointed out. You simply do not survive in a foreign country without a certain level of maturity.

+1
And that is, by the way, what makes travelling models from overseas rather interesting. It's always a pleasure and a benefit to meet couraged, adventurous and enterprising people. (Especially when they come in the guise of handsome young women of course...)

TomFRohwer wrote:
When it comes to "2257 issues" you may relax as a US model working in most parts of Europe. We do not have such weird legislation. To shoot nude images (including "porn", "adult", XXX) legally to have to be 18 years old. And that's it.

Your comments on not requiring model releases and/or documentation (Gov't photo ID, etc) to deal with 2257 issues, all assume someone has no intention of offering their European shot images to American publishers or websites, etc.  Those who do want to keep those options open should plan accordingly.  I'd suggest paying careful attention to KM and his extensive knowledge on the subject

udor wrote:
This is pretty much the key... nudity in America is extremely sexualized and in some ways a taboo. That's why a nipple is considered pornography with quite a few people in the US.

And those people are immediately snatched up to work at Facebook.

DespayreFX wrote:

And those people are immediately snatched up to work at Facebook.

Sad, but seemingly true.

Tony From Syracuse wrote:
you cant make blanket statements like Udor that american models are ashamed of their bodies due to the US having a puritan leaning,...

I am seriously tired of your crap! Statements like the one in the quote above were never made by me! EVER!

Are you familiar with the definition of "libel"?

If you continue to lie about me and grossly misrepresent what I have said, you are entering a legal field that is not taking it lightly when you spout lies and could possibly harm the reputation and business of a person.

This is more than some dudes arguing on the internet. While you, Tony from Syracuse, hide behind anonymity, "udor" is an established brand via "udor photography" and "surrealities of udor" (art, paintings) for over a decade in the public, domestically and overseas, with email, websites (udorphotography.com and surrealities.com), interviews in print, television and recordings (podcasts), location and phone number easily accessible.

Your unsubstantiated lies about what I have said and/or meant in your twisted little mind, as a matter of public record is libelous the least and, if any damage to my business arises... just one model that wants to hire me, but thinks that your lies have merit, can have serious legal consequences for you.

This post serves as a heads up to you and a reminder of consequences for your actions.

If I ever encounter a negative result as part of your libel, this note is going to serve as a public notice to you... just in case!

So, keep your lies and misrepresentations in check, and we'll be okay!

Tony From Syracuse wrote:
Perception is an interesting thing.....until that ....ridiculous ....post above based on a very trite argument .....I had considered this whole model argument over......I pretty much considered that you were breezily and handily making me look kinda bad in your responses ....now... you went back...and resurrected this all with a silly beyond belief threat..

my advice to you Udor, is dont read my posts....dont look at them...you see my screen name....close your eyes and scroll...
I want ...NOTHING.. to do with you or your silly threats of a lawsuit.

Good!

My advise to you: Stop lying and we will do just fine!

I will look at your threads... and if I see you addressing me, lying and maliciously misrepresenting what I have said, I will not ignore your posts!  If your posts do not involve me and you are not libeling me... I do not have a problem.

Very simple, Mr.Tony from Syracuse!

Tony From Syracuse wrote:
its a bit weird....I know nothing about you yet in the argument Its obvious ..*I thought*
(FOR UDOR'S LAWYER) you said america has puritan leanings and it carries over to the models regarding their bodies.   now... I cant find that comment.
..
why would I alot that particular thought to you when re reading your posts now, you said nothing of the kind and no one else did either?  I bring it up again and again in my posts...yet you never challenge me earlier on it when I first bring it up.....yet you do way after.   seems fishy   the word "puritan",   that word isnt one I ever think of using. I had to be referencing someones comment in that thread.but nothing even close is there. make of that what you will.

Okay... a last response, I guess...

First... you claim I haven't challenged you on your lies, implying that I took time to possibly changing my posts, before confronting you with you libelous interpretations. Read what I have written in this thread, again... and again... and if you have problems understanding... read it a few more times and you will realize that my responses were absolutely coherent and in context of the posts I was responding to.

You claimed that I didn't challenge you on your misrepresentations of what I had written... but, Tony from Syracuse, I think that asking you if you are on drugs or have a mental disability that leads you to your convoluted interpretations, is a pretty clear challenge to what you claim in a public forum I supposedly have said, vs. reality.

That you can't find what you have claimed I have said only shows that your imagination, fueled by some sort of agenda is running amok and in fact, you have made up stuff that is apparently unsubstantiated.

The sad thing is... you cant' even gracefully admit that you have made a grave mistake and apologize for it... your ego won't allow that simple solution! No... you have to imply that I must have changed my posts, because you just can't have been wrong.

It's really pathetic.

I have had a crap-load of gigs the past few days and I wanted to let your remarks slide.. until a colleague and friend of mine pointed out your responses and advised to me to not just leave your claims unchallenged, because it's a reputation thing and he is correct... that is the reason why I addressed your posts and claims directly...

Just so you know... any forensic web analyst, people that you would use in a law suit, can easily reconstruct altered posts and timelines to proof certain claims. https://www.modelmayhem.com/forums/post … st19506327

Be aware of that.

No more lies!

Hero Foto wrote:
udor and tony:

thanks for fucking up my question

Your question was answered long before they got into it.

Herman Surkis wrote:

Your question was answered long before they got into it.

Yes and the answer is:

LightDreams wrote:

Your comments on not requiring model releases and/or documentation (Gov't photo ID, etc) to deal with 2257 issues, all assume someone has no intention of offering their European shot images to American publishers or websites, etc.  Those who do want to keep those options open should plan accordingly.  I'd suggest paying careful attention to KM and his extensive knowledge on the subject

I do assume nothing. I just try to outline the legal background.

What is relevant for whom must be considered by the people for whom it is relevant...

CamelliaFlower wrote:

Yes and the answer is:

I know because I have photographed both American and European models.   

Hero Foto wrote:
udor and tony:

thanks for fucking up my question

Herman Surkis wrote:
Your question was answered long before they got into it.

I agree!

He had his question being answered on page 1. Then some extra info by Ken on page two, the rest were repeats.

Gerardo Martinez wrote:
European models are on time and will arrive rain or shine. And there grandma's don't die often too.

+1

Gerardo Martinez wrote:
European models are on time and will arrive rain or shine. And there grandma's don't die often too.

Said perfectly and so very true!!!!!

Lieza Nova wrote:
This is one of the funniest threads I've read in a really long time.

People suck.  Some just suck in ways that are easier to deal with than others. European, American... Everybody sucks somehow.  If anyone would still like to claim that one type is better than another, I'd be happy to introduce you to quite a few members of that type who will quickly change your mind. You should probably bring pepper spray and a spare pair of underpants of decide to take me up on that.

I know awesome Americans and Europeans as well as plenty of really shitty Americans and Europeans. People are people, no matter where they're from.

I have worked with some fantastic European models.  I don't want to work with the models that you are suggesting.   

Jerry Nemeth wrote:

I have worked with some fantastic European models.  I don't want to work with the models that you are suggesting.   

I can list off a dozen awesome American models, some of whom are right in your area, without thinking much about it.  Awesome people are everywhere.  Shitty people are everywhere too.  These silly debates where silly stereotypes are bandied about just make no sense.  Why discount an entire subset of awesome people, simply because of the country listed on their passport?

Lieza Nova wrote:

I can list off a dozen awesome American models, some of whom are right in your area, without thinking much about it.  Awesome people are everywhere.  Shitty people are everywhere too.  These silly debates where silly stereotypes are bandied about just make no sense.  Why discount an entire subset of awesome people, simply because of the country listed on their passport?

I also have worked with many great American models!
I've never worked with bad models.

Jerry Nemeth wrote:

I also have worked with many great American models!
I've never worked with bad models.

Jerry do ever I mean ever have an opinion other just bullshit , me too, or I had, some lame story wtf. Really

D a v i d s o n wrote:

Jerry do ever I mean ever have an opinion other just bullshit , me too, or I had, some lame story wtf. Really

I see that you are trolling threads tonight!