Fotopia wrote:

My favorite European model I shot often always arrived 7 minutes early, no matter the schedule, location, or weather conditions, always 7 minutes before the agreed time, month after month. The most charismatic female I have ever met.

More to the point, my opinion is that many European models have greater comfort in their own body, often more able to move in a graceful, fluid and feminine manner than US models.

Mine have had an education with far greater exposure to the arts, and have enthusiasm for participation in the visual art world.

+1,000

I agree with your observations.

Toto Photo wrote:
I hadn't considered this, makes sense!

It also sheds light on why American travelling models are often more dedicated than non-travelling American models.

Yes...basically my thinking is, when you're comparing traveling European models with the local talent...you're essentially comparing someone people who made a big life decision on the basis of modeling as their career and was probably already relatively successful in their native country, vs a handful of people who may or may not take this modeling business seriously but it's safer for them to try it out because they're in their home country so there is lower risk if they fail. There are some good models in that handful, but they're harder to find among the ones who are just playing around.

You have a higher probability of finding a good European model in America because the bad ones wouldn't have the ability to make here to begin with. ONLY THE STRONG SURVIVE.

Toto Photo wrote:
The one thing that argues strongly against a blanket statement about superior European maturity is hooliganism. I guess we could call it the exception that proves the rule, but that seems specious. And please don't argue we have anything close to that level of immature, violent, mindless, herd-mentality action.

First, I did not use such inflammatory and polarizing language such as "superior European maturity", because I didn't mean this and I don't think it aids anything to the discussion.

Using the hoodlums as a way to negate the overall reason for differences in the behavior of young people is not really fair, and here is why:

The hoodlums are usually found in poor working class families, with high unemployment, low education, uncertainty of any improvement in the future, high frustration level and aggression within families and their direct social environments. The brawls at soccer games is a way to find identity and acceptance within that group of the fans of a particular soccer team, and to let off steam through violence.

You are hard pressed to find hoodlums at golf or tennis tournaments... badminton games or volleyball championships. I was an active competitor in full contact martial arts for 20 years... and not once, I saw a group of hooligans among the audience.

Many years ago, I've read an article about the difference of US fans of American Football and the European soccer fans. The article noted that in both sports arenas, there is a lot of aggression. The difference is that the "violence" happens on the grid iron and hence the spectators are "calm", while in a soccer stadium, the game is played without violence, but the violence happens on the bleachers..., noting that only a tiny fraction of the soccer fans are violent hoodlums and the majority are regular citizens... including YOUNG adults.

I guess that's it for now!

Hero Foto wrote:
how this topic progressed into sports and socio-economic disparities is beyond me.

If you have worked with European models IN Europe and have worked with US models in the US, how do they differ?

This is typical behavior in Model mayhem forums.

Hero Foto wrote:
If you have worked with European models IN Europe and have worked with US models in the US, how do they differ?

While I would agree that there are often different cultural "starting" attitudes towards nudity, each person is different.  And yes, when it comes to taking a chance on "newbie" models, it can be a crap shoot regardless of whether you're working in Europe or working here.  Your odds are much better with someone who's committed and experienced regardless of location.

If I was forced to generalize (which I really hate to do), I'd say that in different areas of Europe you notice different things. Just think about the societal differences in the U.K. versus the Netherlands.  And between Greece, Italy, the old eastern block countries, Slovenia, Budapest and so many more.

Europe Is just too big and way too culturally diverse, as are the models.

Model Sarah wrote:
Cost.

Our rates are much higher than theirs. However, most photographers know to pay talent over there. Here it's almost an entitlement for photographers.

Fascinating post...

Why would Americans charge "much higher"?

DEP E510 wrote:
Why would Americans charge "much higher"?

While I would ignore America vs Europe price comparisons I would say that the "real world" modelling rates (not the oft-claimed rates) vary dramatically depending on the location.  The usual factors. What's the (local) economy like? How many good models (and those who want to get into it) are there?  And how does that supply compare to the amount of locally available paying work that they are competing for?

Then you factor in the individual model's attitude, commitment, (possibly unique) look, experience and more.

Just like here...   

Hero Foto wrote:
how this topic progressed into sports and socio-economic disparities is beyond me.

If you have worked with European models IN Europe and have worked with US models in the US, how do they differ?

Jerry Nemeth wrote:
This is typical behavior in Model mayhem forums.

Yeah, we should check with the admins... maybe if they add a "question answered - thread closed for further comments" button, most threads would be closed after four or five replies... 

Tony From Syracuse wrote:
Everyone..... is different no matter where you come from.you cant come to a concensus on these type of things. there are prudish european models and prudish american ones....there are european models who dont show up on time...and american ones

You have explained on page one already that you are not qualified to talk about this.

The rest of your statement here contains just conjectures and commonplaces.

You are also talking about the fashion industry and agency standard fashion models in which you have no actual experience, as you have mentioned in other posts of yours.

A lot of European and Eastern European models can be found on the runways during fashion week especially... they have the same measurements as home-bred American fashion models with agency stats... so... your generalization about the body types of European models is mute as well, unless you are talking specifically about non-fashion models, which you didn't specify.

Toodles for now!

udor wrote:

You have explained on page one already that you are not qualified to talk about this.

The rest of your statement here contains just conjectures and commonplaces.

You are also talking about the fashion industry and agency standard fashion models in which you have no actual experience, as you have mentioned in other posts of yours.

A lot of European and Eastern European models can be found on the runways during fashion week especially... they have the same measurements as home-bred American fashion models with agency stats... so... your generalization about the body types of European models is mute as well, unless you are talking specifically about non-fashion models, which you didn't specify.

Toodles for now!

I agree!

udor wrote:
You have explained on page one already that you are not qualified to talk about this.

The rest of your statement here contains just conjectures and commonplaces.

You are also talking about the fashion industry and agency standard fashion models in which you have no actual experience, as you have mentioned in other posts of yours.

A lot of European and Eastern European models can be found on the runways during fashion week especially... they have the same measurements as home-bred American fashion models with agency stats... so... your generalization about the body types of European models is mute as well, unless you are talking specifically about non-fashion models, which you didn't specify.

Toodles for now!

no matter how photographer crème de la crème you think you are,I have a right to comment no matter the fact I am not anywhere near a Udor photographer to the stars level, because I can tell you because I have common sense regarding people.

Connor Photography wrote:

There are many difference between two continents.
When you buy a 911 Porsche in Europe, there is no break-in instruction in the owner's manual.  When you buy a 911 in the States,  the break in is needed.  Some car but different preceded notion of the owners.

When I did a tourist delivers pickup of my 911 in Germany, it came with break in instructions. Don't go over 5,000 rpm for the first 500 miles, over 6,000 rpm up to 1,000 miles and then go all the way up to 7,000 rpm. Of course 5,000 rpm was 100 mph, so it wasn't too much trouble.

I find that new models need a "break in period" to get them used to being in front of a camera, and relaxing and emoting.

Tony From Syracuse wrote:
I am not the one generalizing....you are.  and in a very silly way btw.

following your logic, it would be like saying because european women are so less puritan, and so much more comfortable with their bodies ,and given that in the european mind prostitution is A-ok ....european women are also more sexually loose and slutty with their sexuality as they are given to renting out their vag's to strange men for a legal business transaction like their vag is an Arbys drive thru window.

no matter how photographer crème de la crème you think you are,I have a right to comment no matter the fact I am not anywhere near a Udor photographer to the stars level, because I can tell you because I have common sense regarding people.and saying that european models are more comfortable with their bodies than american models is silly given models are all diverse with lots of different personalities no matter where they hail from.

You are way too obsessed with legalized prostitution in Germany! The measures of the German government has the purpose to protect women working in that field, from pimps, violence, exploitation and providing health care (why do you hate women so much?)... I don't think it's healthy and you might want to talk with a professional about that.

Also, it appears that you have not read any other posts in this two page thread, but mine, not paying attention to the experiences of other members who contributed to this thread. I am also not a "crème de la crème photographer", but I am a simple, insignificant worker bee, a cog in the wheel, working full time in fashion industry in NYC. I work for publications, agencies, designers from up and coming to big labels. In many instances I am involved in fashion show production and shooting their shows, I even work with an organization that helps up and coming designers with the production process of the garments... and you are not.

So, please forgive me when I am discounting your opinion about the fashion industry on grounds of imagination on how things ought to be and not how they are... Remember that you not only don't work in this industry, but you have never worked with an European model... EVER... so, have your opinion, but please, allow me to point out when that opinion is not based on reality and facts, but commonplace assumptions.

Your response is utterly ridiculous, false, misrepresented and I am quoting it all to preserve it for future generations of whomever needs to take a look at this rant of yours.

Toodles for now!

Tony From Syracuse wrote:
I simply turned your own logic on its head.  in anotherwords .....I went full Udor.
not to mention... mentioning other people in this thread as some kind of bar of proof of your view is more silliness. I am telling you...if you are making the case that american women are too puritan in regards to being comfortable with their bodies due to our puritan american mindset....I am simply telling you,by that mode of thinking its only fair to say that being the european mindset is pro prostitution then, european women therefore are also more comfortable with taking off their pantys and getting cash for a sexual transaction. why deny it? its legal, and european women apparently arent prudish with their bodies or sex.

I didnt agree with your opinion american women are ashamed of their bodys...and you dont agree with the point that european women are more agreeable to renting out their vag as a business transaction. life will go on.

but possibly you wont get this is a fux viewpoint simply to make a point.

It appears that you don't have the fundamentals to follow my logic. As a matter of fact, your conclusions are completely illogical. Please look up the definition of logic!

What you have written in the post I have replied to, as well in this response, you clearly demonstrate that you are not able to distinguish between concepts and thoughts. Your logic is: "Karl Marx could swim. Fish swim... ergo, Karl Marx is a fish!"

You completely misconstrued everything I have said and come up with convoluted garbage of what I have supposedly said and meant.

I am done discussing this with you!

Gerardo Martinez wrote:
European models are on time and will arrive rain or shine. And there grandma's don't die often too.

I always thought this about US models... *eek*

Bare Essential Photos wrote:

+1,000

I agree with your observations.

Thank you, my comments rarely find agreement in these forums.

I have hoped to stay clear of generalizations on this topic, but had a foreign model so exceptionally productive that I had no interest in shooting anyone else as long as she was available.

I know the actual definition of "muse" and I was fortunate enough to have had one for a while.

udor wrote:
The major difference is that in most European countries, when you grow up, there are much more expectations as well as responsibilities from a much earlier age. E.g. in many of those countries... when you turn 16, you kinda start to prepare for a job, career, making a living or, depending on your grades, to go on to become a university student (academia... trade schools etc, are not considered college)...

Eh... At least in Germany many young people finish university at the age of 27 or 28... Or 30... Many politicians and educational experts complain that young people in the US and other countries finish their education earlier than their US counterparts...

by the age of 19, you are still young, but you are an adult and it is expected of you to act like an adult.

Not really. Criminal law in Germany for instance has much lower sentences for people under 21 because they are regarded not "fully adult".

Oh, you can buy beer and wine at age 15, hard liquor was 16 or 17.

In Germany the age limit is 16 for soft alcoholic drinks like wine and 18 for hard liquor.

fully adult after the law at age 18.

With some exceptions in criminal law.

The US culture in turn, tries to keep their young people in a state of Utopian youth (never works) and trying to keep responsibility from them as long as possible. That's why you see 24 year old college "kids" behave like "kids" at Spring Break.

Regarding sexuality I think you are right - 16, 17 years old youth having sex are nothing which would cause astonishment in Europe...
On the other hand most European countries have an age limit of 18 for driving a car or allow only 17-years old youth driving a car while accompanied by a major.

Maybe the US way of keeping adults in some sort of an imaginary bubble of suspended childhood has its advantages... whatever it is... it does explain why there seems to be a difference in maturity and behavior.

Those young US models I met gave the impression of being much more mature than their European counterparts of equal age...

But that's not astonishing - which young models from another continent we can meet and judge? These models which are couraged enough to book a ticket and travel to another continent...

So in the US you get the most mature European models and here in Europe we get the most mature US models...

Natural Light on Location wrote:
American Models, the non nude type, go in the bathroom to change clothes, sometimes you even hear the door lock click.

European models don't bother, they just change in front of you, usually carrying on a conversation.

That's one thing I never figured out.

Little story from real life...

My wife since 1995 works in an educational institution run by the regional chamber of physicians. In this institution all apprentices for some sorts of medical assistance personal gets additional training. For instance all these apprentices have to train to take an electrocardiogram correctly.

There are classes of some 12 to 15 apprentices and they have to do this with each other. 95 percent of the apprentices are young women, age 17 ~ 23.

Now... to take an electrocardiogram correctly the patient has to bare his/her upper body. Otherwise the electrocardiogram cannot be taken correctly. In 1995 this was no problem. The girls took of their blouses and shirts and bras. Of course: when a male apprentice is present they use same paravents.

In the years since 1995 this got more and more difficult and nowadays most apprentices refuse to bare their upper body even though this is indispensable for training and educational reasons in this job...

In the last few decades people - especially young people - in Europe got more and more prude. When I was in senior high school in the second half of the 1970ies and when I studied at the University in the following years you could count girls under 25 wearing a bra with your ten fingers. Today you can count young girls between ~17 and 25 not wearing a bra with your ten fingers...

Any differences that have you experienced which really stand out?

After some 15 years shooting with pro, semi-pro and amateur models and after some 15 years loitering in German, European and US internet photography and modelling communities and forums I have to state:

All these complaints about models by photographers and by photographers about models, all those discussions, all those suddenly died grandmas and flakes and no shows and GWCs....

It's exactly the same on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean. Exactly the same. No difference. There is really no difference.

If there is one difference between models in the US and in Germany (models besides the agency repped full time professional models working in the fashion business etc.) it is this one:

If you want to make a living by modelling in the US you need to have a certain success because otherwise you will go to bed hungry and you will not know how to pay your rent.

If you want to make a living by modelling in Germany you always can rely on an extensive social security system which guaranties the money for at least a low standard flat and heating and electricity and some money for living. You cannot fall below this standard because it's guaranteed by the state. You always can go the office which is in charge for welfare and get this basic money. They even pay for your medical insurance if you do not have enough money to do so.

My impression (I have visited the US many times since 1982) always was and is until today that young Americans have far better survival capabilities than young Germans... Young Germans complain and go to the welfare office. Young Americans got to the next diner and work for minimum wages. Because otherwise they would starve.

In my experience this makes US models somewhat more... tough then their European counterparts. Honestly I always appreciated this. When it comes to sex they may be a little bit more... childish. But when it comes to living they are definitely more adult.

Just my 100 cents...

(By the way: don't mingle "Europe" and "Eastern Europe", inlcuding Russia, Ukraine. Circumstances of life in Eastern Europe are partially so bad that there is a really big motivation to crave for a career abroad.)

TomFRohwer wrote:
All these complaints about models by photographers and by photographers about models, all those discussions, all those suddenly died grandmas and flakes and no shows and GWCs....

It's exactly the same on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean. Exactly the same. No difference. There is really no difference.

Very interesting to see it from the perspective of someone who's observed it first-hand!

I know a lot of young Americans from different origins. Some are vastly more responsible/mature than others at the same age or even when younger.

Some are quite coddled and supported by their parents and have had it relatively easy in life. Most of the people I grew up with are like this, so it's them that I thought of when comparing young adult Americans vs Europeans.

But I have more recently met the acquaintance of a number of young Americans who hustle hard to get by (just as I do), and that is accurate to your statement about working "in a diner for minimum wage". In fact I live and work in a city packed with such individuals. In fact I have a handful of coworkers whom I know to be single mothers, and are not on welfare.

Just goes to show you really can't make sweeping generalizations and have them be very accurate. Thanks for your insight

Kent Art Photography wrote:

Travelling models would, presumably, have more commitment because they've taken the step of actually doing the travelling.  That would surely apply to European models travelling in North America and to American models travelling in Europe.

+1

TomFRohwer wrote:

After some 15 years shooting with pro, semi-pro and amateur models and after some 15 years loitering in German, European and US internet photography and modelling communities and forums I have to state:

All these complaints about models by photographers and by photographers about models, all those discussions, all those suddenly died grandmas and flakes and no shows and GWCs....

It's exactly the same on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean. Exactly the same. No difference. There is really no difference.

If there is one difference between models in the US and in Germany (models besides the agency repped full time professional models working in the fashion business etc.) it is this one:

If you want to make a living by modelling in the US you need to have a certain success because otherwise you will go to bed hungry and you will not know how to pay your rent.

If you want to make a living by modelling in Germany you always can rely on an extensive social security system which guaranties the money for at least a low standard flat and heating and electricity and some money for living. You cannot fall below this standard because it's guaranteed by the state. You always can go the office which is in charge for welfare and get this basic money. They even pay for your medical insurance if you do not have enough money to do so.

My impression (I have visited the US many times since 1982) always was and is until today that young Americans have far better survival capabilities than young Germans... Young Germans complain and go to the welfare office. Young Americans got to the next diner and work for minimum wages. Because otherwise they would starve.

In my experience this makes US models somewhat more... tough then their European counterparts. Honestly I always appreciated this. When it comes to sex they may be a little bit more... childish. But when it comes to living they are definitely more adult.

Just my 100 cents...

(By the way: don't mingle "Europe" and "Eastern Europe", inlcuding Russia, Ukraine. Circumstances of life in Eastern Europe are partially so bad that there is a really big motivation to crave for a career abroad.)

I have worked with several models from the Czech Republic and it was a pleasure working with them.

DEP E510 wrote:
Fascinating post...

Why would Americans charge "much higher"?

The main reason is how expensive it is to travel here vs there and how far apart people who actually know to pay talent are. Do you realize that it's like nearly $500 to travel to Seattle from here? Once I get there renting a car and driving around to everyone costs money as well. People are closer there so there's more options. Supply/demand, really. If there are tons of models and photographers over there you can do more shoots with people who pay and it is cheap to travel to all of them. More models and more photographers who pay mean if everyone works for a lower rate, it's a win win there. When I went to Europe I was flown there and paid my rate, which I heard from European models is a rare event. I had to basically convince a ton of photographers that 1. I don't live here so you'll never get a chance to work with me again. 2. The cost it was for me to get to them from here. 3. You're paying for a look and talent. I'm very passionate about what I do and my rate reflects all of these things.

Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
When a US photographer goes out of the country to photograph models and brings the photos back to the US and publishes them online or in print without proper paperwork, they are also in violation of the law.

KM

This I was not aware of - could you elaborate please on the "appropriate paperwork".

Gerardo Martinez wrote:
European models are on time and will arrive rain or shine. And there grandma's don't die often too.

Lol that was funny.

J O H N  A L L A N wrote:
This I was not aware of - could you elaborate please on the "appropriate paperwork".

The "Appropriate Paperwork" for photo sessions outside the USA I am referring to would be a US Government Issued Photo Identification (State Issued Drivers License or US Passport that is acceptable by Homeland Security standards)

This would apply only to US models shot on foreign locations and the images belong to a USA based company or photographer.

However, depending on where the shoot it, American models may need a work permit that is issued by the location country.

Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
Something worth mentioning here . . . .  The United States Department of Homeland Security doesn't recognize foreign ID's or Passports as valid for any kind of working or business relationship.

Publications that feature models (Playboy, Penthouse, Hustler, etc) will not purchase rights to photos without legal ID's and model releases.

When a model is caught working in the US without a proper work permit, they are violating the law and can be deported and not allowed back in the USA for a good number of years.

When a US photographer goes out of the country to photograph models and brings the photos back to the US and publishes them online or in print without proper paperwork, they are also in violation of the law.

The only photographer I can think of that successfully does this is a fellow in Northern California that shoots in Europe and runs his site from his home here in the states. He has a very complicated legal arrangement that includes being a partner in a UK based business that produces content that is only hosted in the UK. His US owned site only links to the overseas content.

For many years, those of us that specialized in glamour & erotic nudes would look forward to all the beautiful European models that wold come over here for work. They were a joy to shoot.

Now however, it's too risky for them to come here . . . . . it was nice while it lasted.

KM

This is exactly why I don't travel internationally anymore. It's not worth the hassle.

Ken Marcus Studios wrote:

The "Appropriate Paperwork" for photo sessions outside the USA I am referring to would be a US Government Issued Photo Identification (State Issued Drivers License or US Passport that is acceptable by Homeland Security standards)

This would apply only to US models shot on foreign locations and the images belong to a USA based company or photographer.

However, depending on where the shoot it, American models may need a work permit that is issued by the location country.

Ok, that makes sense, as the location becomes virtually inconsequential.

I think it wouldn't effect me, as if I were to shoot over seas, I can't imagine dragging along a U.S. model, more likely I'd pull from a local agency - as an aside, I wonder how it would effect things if they were a foreign branch of an agency that also had presence within the US.

J O H N  A L L A N wrote:

Ok, that makes sense, as the location becomes virtually inconsequential.

I think it wouldn't effect me, as if I were to shoot over seas, I can't imagine dragging along a U.S. model, more likely I'd pull from a local agency - as an aside, I wonder how it would effect things if they were a foreign branch of an agency that also had presence within the US.

If you pull from a local agency you will still have to have appropriate paperwork for those models, or else you are in violation of US regulations.

Hero Foto wrote:
Ken,

How in the heck can images be regulated in cyberspace? Seriously, I'm baffled by this.

It's not that the images are in cyberspace that is the issue . . . . it's WHERE the photographer resides, operates their business, and does their banking that determines the jurisdiction.