Box Top Photography wrote:
My two cents is that I like when traveling models let me know they are in the area, some are really great and I often work with them or at least tell them that I can't work with you this time but please let me know when you are back again. A lot of times traveling models tend to be more reliable since this is their primary way of making a living. If I get included in a generic mass email I understand it  because I am friends with a few models and I know how much work goes on to be successful at modeling. It's not just the hrs in front of the camera but the hrs also spent trying to get work. Sorry if I went off topic a little.

THIS.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
You don't want to call it a rant?  That's fine, but ...*snip*

I don't call it a rant, because it isn't one. I don't call my car a pumpkin for the same reason.

Just so you know for future reference, here's a rant... I'll leave it to you to try and see why one is, and one obviously is not, a rant, I think the differences are obvious and clear.

https://www.reddit.com/r/rant/comments/ … d_and_just

Additionally...
rant
verb
1.
speak or shout at length in a wild, impassioned way.
"she was still ranting on about the unfairness of it all"

I think you can agree, that's not what happened here.

DespayreFX wrote:
I don't call it a rant, because it isn't one.

That's your opinion & not a fact.  Seems to me, the OP is a rant and as such it meets the criteria of the definition you posted.

Regardless, it contains mean-spirited & derogatory attitudes against models who are seeking paid work.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

P.S.  Your "car -- pumpkin" analogy is a fallacious argument.

DespayreFX wrote:
I don't call it a rant, because it isn't one.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
That's your opinion & not a fact.  Seems to me, the OP is a rant and as such it meets the criteria of the definition you posted.

What?! It is NOT my opinion, unless you consider the dictionary to be just "an opinion piece", otherwise, it's something we call a fact. You're welcome to ignore facts, ppl do it all the time on the internet, but I've given you the accepted worldwide definition of "rant", and you can clearly see this doesn't qualify. If you choose to ignore the meaning of words, that's up to you, but you denying their meaning doesn't change it.

You may need to more carefully read the definition again, as the OP is clearly NOT "shouting", "at length", "wild", or even "impassioned" in his post, and if you rule all those things out, it's not a rant. It really is just that simple. Surprising mistake since I even gave a link to a perfectly good rant so you could see the difference.

Sidenote:
Please remember to drive your pumpkin slowly through school zones.
I've read the definition of car (and pumpkin!), but I feel those are just someone's opinions, and I should be allowed to call things whatever I want, regardless of the facts. Doesn't sound fallacious to me, in fact, sounds like an illuminating example of what happens when people choose to use the wrong words to describe something, deliberately.

WisconsinArt wrote:
I don't wish to join the pissing contest but they do ask for eleventy billion dollars.

I've started doing Web searches on "traveling models" and it's amazing how many of them star in adult videos.

Well, it takes all types to make up this world but it's a lot cheaper to go to Nevada where it's legal.

Most aren't trying to charge video rates for still photography, so Im not sure what one has to do with the other, nor what modelling or acting has to do with nevadas prostitution laws.

Jules NYC wrote:
If nude models have to hustle so hard and NOT cherry pick, what's the draw?
To travel?

Isn't it easier to get *insert any other job here*, make enough money to travel anyway and shoot with the people you want to?

if you feel like using your extremely limited vacation time at your "real job" to blow your savings and travel somewhere to get a pretty picture or two, sure, that works, but there's nothing easier about then working two jobs. Lining up decent trade, showing up, and doing the work is still work. I personally like to spend my vacation time not working or spending all my money.

Laura UnBound wrote:
if you feel like using your extremely limited vacation time at your "real job" to blow your savings and travel somewhere to get a pretty picture or two, sure, that works, but there's nothing easier about then working two jobs. Lining up decent trade, showing up, and doing the work is still work. I personally like to spend my vacation time not working or spending all my money.

I haven't had a job with strict vacation benefits in a long time.
I'd just figure if the job that pays the most amount of money (be this the 'real' job?) gives you the flexibility to travel, that sounds better than taking photos with photographers that aren't so great (if that is the case?).

To each their own but I do understand that modeling and travelling can have benefits for some just the same as making money any which way for others (including modeling).

Last time I took a vacation, I went to San Fran again, but incorporated my modeling for the articles I was writing for the magazine.  I planned it out like any travelling model but I went on vacation for personal reasons whether I worked or didn't.

My brother has a 'real job' and he got to travel all over Europe showing off the car he was a part of designing. 
That seemed pretty cool, a 'working vacation'.

WisconsinArt wrote:
I don't wish to join the pissing contest but they do ask for eleventy billion dollars.

I've started doing Web searches on "traveling models" and it's amazing how many of them star in adult videos.

Well, it takes all types to make up this world but it's a lot cheaper to go to Nevada where it's legal.

Back 5 or 6 years ago, I was consistently getting work shooting niche fetish and video work, so I was actually able to do more TF* shoots in figural arts. I created much of my best artistic work during the years I was shooting "adult" videos.

I worked with a lot of photographers for trade back then, because the videos paid well and I didn't have to hustle the glamour/art modeling so much. I was able to do that for fun, and shoot vids for actual cash.

When the Clips4Sale market (especially for "alt" models) died down, there was less of that work around - and then I had to go back to being really picky about getting paid for photoshoots. I never even asked for half the amount of compensation for a photoshoot that I requested for an erotic video. If someone wanted to shoot art nudes, I'd generally quote half what I expected to make for more explicit work. So, 50% cheaper, on average.

It's funny to me when photographers talk about "nude models shooting teh pr0nz" -- like they're revealing some deep, dark, hidden secret. I talked about it openly, even back when I was shooting it.

Jules NYC wrote:
My brother has a 'real job' and he got to travel all over Europe showing off the car he was a part of designing. 
That seemed pretty cool, a 'working vacation'.

This is the exception, not the rule.

In my experience (and I worked as a traveling model, and at other times in mainstream "normal jobs") accepting a normal job means accepting that you will stay in one place, at home. That you will not travel, or go anywhere. You go to your job every day, punch a clock and have to look at the same view, out the same windows, at least five days per week - day after day and year after year.

For me, it has meant needing to stay put for a year at a time - at least. The mainstream job I had before the one I am currently working, it was hell to get a day off. I wanted to go see my parents, because I hadn't seen them in over a year, and my boss gave me grief for it for weeks. I get paid vacation where I'm at now, but I have to put in a year of not calling out (except for sick leave with doctor's note), and an excellent end of the year review, before I'll have access to my vacation pay.

You can either travel, or you can stay put. It's EXTREMELY rare for "average" people to have jobs that allow both.

Koryn wrote:
This is the exception, not the rule.

In my experience (and I worked as a traveling model, and at other times in mainstream "normal jobs") accepting a normal job means accepting that you will stay in one place, at home. That you will not travel, or go anywhere. You go to your job every day, punch a clock and have to look at the same view, out the same windows, at least five days per week - day after day and year after year.

For me, it has meant needing to stay put for a year at a time - at least. The mainstream job I had before the one I am currently working, it was hell to get a day off. I wanted to go see my parents, because I hadn't seen them in over a year, and my boss gave me grief for it for weeks. I get paid vacation where I'm at now, but I have to put in a year of not calling out (except for sick leave with doctor's note), and an excellent end of the year review, before I'll have access to my vacation pay.

You can either travel, or you can stay put. It's EXTREMELY rare for "average" people to have jobs that allow both.

I consider a 'real job' a job that you make decent money at.
If you make enough money, you can afford your own benefits & vacation.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind 2/3 weeks vacation a year if I was getting full benefits at a company I really want to work for.

I remember back in Hollywood, CA when I was working freelance, working 12 to 16 hour days... sometimes all nighters and definitely considered that a 'real job'.

I never in my life punched in a time clock.

I'll agree it's not often a person can travel and have a job with all the amenities at the same time.
At the end of the day, whatever you're doing, if you're making enough money you can afford your own health insurance, retirement benefits, nest egg and vacation.

Having the TIME to do it is the challenge.

I remember a free vacation I got when working in Sales.
It was awesome and didn't feel like work at all.

They took us here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZip1iqmvCw
http://www.theboulders.com/gallery/

Just a 'regular' real? job.
I still modeled when I had it.

The girl I recently modeled with is going to be a lawyer.  I bet she will still model with her 'regular' job too. Somehow I bet she'll be able to travel any time she'd like.

Jules NYC wrote:
The girl I recently modeled with is going to be a lawyer.  I bet she will still model with her 'regular' job too. Somehow I bet she'll be able to travel any time she'd like.

How many individuals, currently working 40+ hours per week, and living on around $20,000 per year, do you think are going to be able to afford law school?

Also take into account that if they're over 25, they probably have at least one child to support.

Koryn wrote:
How many individuals, currently working 40+ hours per week, and living on around $20,000 per year, do you think are going to be able to afford law school?

Also take into account that if they're over 25, they probably have at least one child to support.

Not many people with law school plans are in that situation Koryn.
Then again, MANY people with VERY little means have done that, or became doctors, financial mavens, etc.

As for a child to support, some plan it, most don't.

My model friend was wondering how she was going to pay 200K back.
Personally you make it back when you're in the field.

Koryn wrote:

This is the exception, not the rule.

In my experience (and I worked as a traveling model, and at other times in mainstream "normal jobs") accepting a normal job means accepting that you will stay in one place, at home. That you will not travel, or go anywhere. You go to your job every day, punch a clock and have to look at the same view, out the same windows, at least five days per week - day after day and year after year.

For me, it has meant needing to stay put for a year at a time - at least. The mainstream job I had before the one I am currently working, it was hell to get a day off. I wanted to go see my parents, because I hadn't seen them in over a year, and my boss gave me grief for it for weeks. I get paid vacation where I'm at now, but I have to put in a year of not calling out (except for sick leave with doctor's note), and an excellent end of the year review, before I'll have access to my vacation pay.

You can either travel, or you can stay put. It's EXTREMELY rare for "average" people to have jobs that allow both.

^^ full stop.

John Carman wrote:
I think you have your answer. These models throw out as wide a net as possible in hopes of attracting paid gigs. i get these messages from the same models who are contacting you, I'm sure.

for shizzle!
we've worked with a lot of the same models too.
your work is always gorgeous and inspiring.
haven't seen you post in the forums in a while.
hope you've been well.

Laura UnBound wrote:

Most aren't trying to charge video rates for still photography, so Im not sure what one has to do with the other, nor what modelling or acting has to do with nevadas prostitution laws.

You have yet to learn many things of life, young Grasshopper.

Paolo Diavolo wrote:
Dear People who are discussing my intentions for making this thread,

My intention was to gain insight on the process traveling models use when it comes to soliciting work.

I'll give you "eleventy billion' reasons why I don't buy that.

Jules NYC wrote:
Being a travelling model living on limited means sounds like a bunch of fun but unless you expect to be marketable in that capacity the rest of your life, seems like a temporary lifestyle choice... if you want to prepare for a future.

Living on 20K doesn't seem lucrative as a single person, forget adding another member to it.

20k is more than I ever made at "white collar" office jobs. My current job is the most money I've ever made at a mainstream job, and it's about $20,000 before taxes. I live on far less than that in reality.

I know a few young single men who earn more than $20,000 annually - in the 30-35k range. They all work in higher end tech jobs, and basically are all people who just sort of was born coding, or started writing software programs when they were in their teens. In other words, born programmers. My ex went back to school to work in the tech industry, and is in his first year or so of software developing; he makes around $20,000 annually now. Among women in my own age range I know, who have 2-4 years of college, none have jobs earning more than about $20-25k, except they are all raising children as single moms on that income. The exception is my friend who has a Master's degree and has been a licensed therapist for several years. She had no children and earns about $35,000 per year. She acknowledges her own luck and privilege to have (A) had a family who helped support her while she pursued the advanced degree, and (B) to even have a job that pays 35K. Among my peers that's considered very good money. A genuine luxury life if you are from the Millennial generation.

Koryn wrote:
20k is more than I ever made at "white collar" office jobs. My current job is the most money I've ever made at a mainstream job, and it's about $20,000 before taxes. I live on far less than that in reality.

I know a few young single men who earn more than $20,000 annually - in the 30-35k range. They all work in higher end tech jobs, and basically are all people who just sort of was born coding, or started writing software programs when they were in their teens. In other words, born programmers. My ex went back to school to work in the tech industry, and is in his first year or so of software developing; he makes around $20,000 annually now. Among women in my own age range I know, who have 2-4 years of college, none have jobs earning more than about $20-25k, except they are all raising children as single moms on that income. The exception is my friend who has a Master's degree and has been a licensed therapist for several years. She had no children and earns about $35,000 per year. She acknowledges her own luck and privilege to have (A) had a family who helped support her while she pursued the advanced degree, and (B) to even have a job that pays 35K. Among my peers that's considered very good money. A genuine luxury life if you are from the Millennial generation.

Wow.

I've been raised in an element where making good money is commonplace.  It's REALLY not hard to make 30K a year and that is really low to me.  With $15 an hour being the new minimum wage in a couple states, it's better to strive higher.

There are plenty of occupations where making 30K or more is not a stretch.  I guess if you feel that you can strive for more, you do.  It's not necessarily a luxury, it's what you want in life (if you want it for YOU because no one does this for you).

For some reason, I think you should listen to this Koryn:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJo95t0bZbM

There's a group mentality thinking if you believe what you can or are making is 'normal' for you.  If everyone around you is in the same situation and making more money is foreign to you, it's seems somewhat unreachable.  When you start hanging around people who are actively doing *this and that*, your reality might shift to a better place.

It really comes to an individual choice what you want in life.

Jules NYC wrote:
Being a travelling model living on limited means sounds like a bunch of fun but unless you expect to be marketable in that capacity the rest of your life, seems like a temporary lifestyle choice... if you want to prepare for a future.

Living on 20K doesn't seem lucrative as a single person, forget adding another member to it.

I'm amazed there are as many models who do it as there are.  It seems like a very challenging business model and difficult lifestyle to me.  Compared to local talent, traveling models have high over head and minimal hands on earning hours.

I think the point behind the OP's post is that just because traveling models have higher expenses they need to cover, doesn't mean he has any reason to pay them more than he can get local talent for.  It must be hard to overcome this as a traveling model and my congrats to those who are able to make it work.

Abbitt Photography wrote:

I'm amazed there are as many models who do it as there are.  It seems like a very challenging business model and difficult lifestyle to me.  Compared to local talent, traveling models have high over head and minimal hands on earning hours.

I think the point behind the OP's post is that just because traveling models have higher expenses they need to cover, doesn't mean he has any reason to pay them more than he can get local talent for.  It must be hard to overcome this as a traveling model and my congrats to those who are able to make it work.

I could imagine it IS hard.  I guess it's not spam to the model, the 'Dartboard theory' to get gigs.  Seems like a lot of work for what you get back; to each their own.

WisconsinArt wrote:

You have yet to learn many things of life, young Grasshopper.

Oh, please help me.

Paolo Diavolo wrote:
Why me?
Every so often I get a spam message from a traveling model that goes something like:

[i]
Theres plenty of Photographers in this market and I cant imagine that the Model spammed all of us, even if she had unlimited messages.
So my question is why would a traveling nude model bother with sending me a message?

I don't have any nude images in my portfolio, or any lingerie images typical of the kind of content most traveling Models shoot, so why would they think I'd start shooting that content with them and pay them for it?

Hopefully my work shows that I am experienced, and my profile should convey that I've had plenty of experience and no shortage of collaborations with other members.

If I was a traveling nude model, I'd probably market myself to harmless GWCs.

I get this all the time.  Even though if you look at my profile, you can see that I don't pay models unless I have a client paying me to hire a model to shoot for a project.  The odds that I'd have a project like that for a model who just so happens to be traveling in my area on that day and time is ridiculous. 

I might be able to hire a particular model who doesn't live in my city to pose for me if my client liked that model enough to pay them to travel here, or for me to travel there.  I've had one client who wants me to shoot some catalog work with a fantastic model who used to live in SC, then NM, and now TX, but it never seems to work out.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
I'll give you "eleventy billion' reasons why I don't buy that.

There are two ways to take in new information. You can either say to yourself:

"Ok - I’m not 100% sure where the author is coming from, but I’m going to assume the BEST about their intentions, and I’m going to constructively contribute to the dialog (if in fact I have anything relevant to contribute to the topic)."

- OR -

"I’m going to assume the WORST about the author's intentions and attack their character."

When too many people take the latter approach, the forums cease being a safe community where we can learn about each other via good-faith communication.

Instead they become a snarky, sarcastic place defined by the people who can’t wait for the next opportunity to express their outrage, outrage based solely on their cynical (and usually inaccurate) assumptions about the OP's motivations.

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:

Though I understand you don't want to be bothered but.....
So are you saying everyone who shoots nudes are GWCs ?  ...

It sounds more like he is asking why nude models are asking him to pay them just because they are soliciting him for paid work. Generally, soliciting for paid work may work better on a GWC, not a non nude photographer.

Also, Risen Phoenix, I've said this several times in reply to some of your posts, not everyone who shoots nude is a GWC nor are they considered one. Likely though, the GWC market is where some travelling models can solicit for money. Again, this is not an insult to those who are GWCs or the models who work for them either.

Apples and oranges.

Jen

Paolo Diavolo wrote:
Why me?
Every so often I get a spam message from a traveling model that goes something like:

[i]
Theres plenty of Photographers in this market and I cant imagine that the Model spammed all of us, even if she had unlimited messages.
So my question is why would a traveling nude model bother with sending me a message?

I don't have any nude images in my portfolio, or any lingerie images typical of the kind of content most traveling Models shoot, so why would they think I'd start shooting that content with them and pay them for it?

Hopefully my work shows that I am experienced, and my profile should convey that I've had plenty of experience and no shortage of collaborations with other members.

If I was a traveling nude model, I'd probably market myself to harmless GWCs.

She must have confused you with a reasonable professional who understands what a networking site is all about.

Fortunately, you've cleared up that misunderstanding.

Paolo Diavolo wrote:
Why me?
.

Whenever an artist believes they have reached the top of the heap - they should look up to see the mountain of taken above them.

Laura UnBound wrote:

To expand even further, as was pointed out by another poster, some of your verified credits are other traveling nude models, we basically mine each others contact lists. Your credited images also show a couple nudes. Your profile says youve shot "a little bit of everything", you're not exactly screaming "I WONT SHOOT YOU NAKED GO AWAY!" here.

But its mostly just that we spam everybody. And its not a total waste of time to contact those who don't show nudes, half of them WANT to get into nudes but the local models they've been able to work with thus far don't do them or they didn't know how to ask/have a fear of being seen as creepy, so we offer and thats their "big break" into shooting nudes, its not dangerous to their reputation to ask a nude model offering nudes to shoot nudes.

^^  What she said

I appreciate it when I'm contacted - I don't feel that it's any obligation to work with anybody - 

But, I have generally found traveling models to be exceptionally professional - organized - easy to work with - and well worth paying (given that the cost is not that high - it's supply and demand - there is no logic to pricing yourself out of the market you are traveling to). 

This stands in profound contrast to some newbie local models, that are none of the above - and still want eleventy billion dollars.

Jen B E wrote:

It sounds more like he is asking why nude models are asking him to pay them just because they are soliciting him for paid work. Generally, soliciting for paid work may work better on a GWC, not a non nude photographer.

Also, Risen Phoenix, I've said this several times in reply to some of your posts, not everyone who shoots nude is a GWC nor are they considered one. Likely though, the GWC market is where some travelling models can solicit for money. Again, this is not an insult to those who are GWCs or the models who work for them either.

Apples and oranges.

Jen

He is an art nude photographer.  "An Artist!"  Every other nude photographer is a GWC!