Model
Model MoRina
Posts: 6639
MacMurdo - permanent station of the US, Sector claimed by New Zealand, Antarctica
Such negativity - you blame everyone but yourself. With your attitude towards women, I am surprised anyone shoots with you.
TFP shoots for pretty girls are a dime a dozen. If models are losing interest in your shoot between the time you schedule it and when it's supposed to happen, it's because YOU haven't given them a good enough reason to shoot with you over the other 100 guys with cameras/cell phones vying for their attention.
Photographer
Studio NSFW
Posts: 783
Pacifica, California, US
I’d recommend that you take up landscape photography, except that you live in a very ugly part of the world.
Maybe birds? Or reptiles? They work for free.
Photographer
G Reese
Posts: 914
Marion, Indiana, US
Negativity is only the start of it. Aww poor baby. Not worth listing the reasons.
Photographer
Bob Helm Photography
Posts: 18911
Cherry Hill, New Jersey, US
All I can say is WOW such negativity .
Personally I would have deleted that before I posted it, but since you didnt I would delete it now or you won't see much luck paying models to work with you.
Since the invention of the camera in cell phones wanna b models dont need photographer and since OF came along they can make money off those photos
Photographer
Arizona Shoots
Posts: 28657
Phoenix, Arizona, US
On the one hand, this post was a bad idea. On the other, it could be the first MM thread to hit page 2 in the first day in a very long time.
Oh and, "I have covid" is the new "My grandma died". It can be used multiple times, and only an idiot would question it and insist on shooting anyway.
Photographer
Roaring 20s
Posts: 137
Los Angeles, California, US
you can control all of those behaviors with money
student loans are coming due for over 1/10th of the population, it won't be hard
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45205
San Juan Bautista, California, US
DeanLautermilch wrote:
A short addition to my website after two weeks of TFP cancellations.
https://deanlautermilch.com/the-games-t … dels-play/ You're promoting your website by this admission that you're have problems getting models who don't cancel?
Start paying models.
In addition! I went to your website. The "article" you wrote for yourself is not impressive at all.
I see why you are having problems getting models to shoot with you. Maybe you should try seascapes, still life, or wildlife. I'd suggest landscapes, but there is not much of that where you are at.
Photographer
Studio NSFW
Posts: 783
Pacifica, California, US
A more interesting topic might be “Games that would-be Photographers Play”
Let’s see…according to the OPs MM profile they “Don’t mix money and photography” - but they have a blog post debating hourly vs flat fee rates for models (OP posted a link in this forum) that comes across as super penny pinching, whiny and frankly adversarial. They whine about a model who must stop frequently to fix their hair or change wardrobe to “inflate their fees”…not recognizing that attention to detail like hair style is one of the things that a pro model brings to the table, which is one reason they bring value to a shoot compared to a TFP amateur.
That blog post also claims that this is a hobby, but the “about” blurb on the website claims a strip mall studio. However, despite supposedly having access to a studio, their portfolio is completely made up of location shots, with no studio work evident.
They claim to have been “Extorted” multiple times by TFP models and have all sorts of horror stories about how bad TFP models are. As has been pointed out, that “Extortion” sounds much more like expectations were set or at least implied by Florida Man, and models actually demanded the payment they expected.
At some point, when confronted with Bullshit, it becomes time to just point out “Oh my goodness, this appears to be Bullshit”
And this does.
As was previously pointed out, your blog posts on your site would be enough to make any model with a lick of sense decline to work with you. If you are sending prospective models to your antagonistic web site as part of your recruiting/intake process, NO WONDER ThEY KEEP CANCELLING on you.
Photographer
JQuest
Posts: 2460
Syracuse, New York, US
Photographer
Ken Marcus Studios
Posts: 9421
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
The game is mostly over . . . it appears that most of the models decided they don't need photographers anymore, and just shoot their own content at their own homes with less aggravation from photographers and make more money.
FYI . . . i have had little to no problems with trade shoots for many years . . .
Photographer
Arizona Shoots
Posts: 28657
Phoenix, Arizona, US
Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
The game is mostly over . . . it appears that most of the models decided they don't need photographers anymore, and just shoot their own content at their own homes with less aggravation from photographers and make more money.
FYI . . . i have had little to no problems with trade shoots for many years . . . I was just talking to a model who still shoots occasionally about this over the weekend. Basically, you're right. She said she makes more money shooting her own content and doesn't have to deal with pissy or gropey photographers who try pushing her to do more than she agreed to do. Now she shoots what she wants, when she wants, and how she wants, and gets to control what gets posted and what doesn't, all while making more money. Photographers basically did this to themselves.
(For the record, I've never understood the pissy type photographers. You do what every red-blooded Amercan male wants to do. Why do this if you don't enjoy it?)
Photographer
Frozen Logic
Posts: 27
Lewisville, Texas, US
Patrick Walberg wrote:
Start paying models. I usually do paid shoots and have no problems with cancellations.
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 13564
Washington, Utah, US
When I started shooting models, the first iPhone hadn’t yet been released, even DSLRs were fairly limited. I could fairly easily get TF models because working with someone like me was about the only way to get digital images for social media, etc. Since then, smart phones have become common and better. Selfies are very acceptable on many venues and of course there are more photographers with decent cameras chasing an ever dwindling supply of models who feel they will benefit from TF shoots. I think there are also more concerns about safety, people seeing images on the internet, etc.
Times have changed.
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 30130
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Arizona Shoots wrote:
On the one hand, this post was a bad idea. On the other, it could be the first MM thread to hit page 2 in the first day in a very long time.
Oh and, "I have covid" is the new "My grandma died". It can be used multiple times, and only an idiot would question it and insist on shooting anyway. I miss those days of epic threads
Photographer
Skydancer Photos
Posts: 22196
Santa Cruz, California, US
2 days and not quite...  Arizona Shoots wrote:
On the one hand, this post was a bad idea. On the other, it could be the first MM thread to hit page 2 in the first day in a very long time. Garry k wrote:
I miss those days of epic threads
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45205
San Juan Bautista, California, US
Arizona Shoots wrote:
On the one hand, this post was a bad idea. On the other, it could be the first MM thread to hit page 2 in the first day in a very long time. Garry k wrote:
I miss those days of epic threads Skydancer Photos wrote:
2 days and not quite... Look at all the high post numbers between us! Back in the day, we'd be going at it!
Now it's too easy for us to own this place.. 
The sad thing is that so many of the good ones have left.
Maybe they died in the brig? I personally know a few that got life sentences. 
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45205
San Juan Bautista, California, US
DeanLautermilch wrote:
A short addition to my website after two weeks of TFP cancellations. Dean, you've been around here since May 30, 2006. Interesting that you have such a low post count. I've seen your name many times, so I'm sure you know the drill. Complaining about TFP cancelations is so old that it is has become a stale topic. Heck, even scheduled paid shoots have canceled, which brings on the new/old excuse of covid .. "I tested positive" "My (insert family member) tested positive" .. and so on. For some of us, it's real. Sorry this thread didn't generate the comments you were hoping for.
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 30130
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Patrick Walberg wrote:
Arizona Shoots wrote:
On the one hand, this post was a bad idea. On the other, it could be the first MM thread to hit page 2 in the first day in a very long time. Look at all the high post numbers between us! Back in the day, we'd be going at it!
Now it's too easy for us to own this place..
The sad thing is that so many of the good ones have left.
Maybe they died in the brig? I personally know a few that got life sentences.
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 30130
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Patrick Walberg wrote:
Look at all the high post numbers between us! Back in the day, we'd be going at it!
Now it's too easy for us to own this place..
The sad thing is that so many of the good ones have left.
Maybe they died in the brig? I personally know a few that got life sentences. True - but I am not sure the Forums are worth owning anymore . And Yes - most of the good ( interesting ) ones are gone
Photographer
Shot By Adam
Posts: 8095
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Bob Helm Photography wrote:
All I can say is WOW such negativity .
Personally I would have deleted that before I posted it, but since you didnt I would delete it now or you won't see much luck paying models to work with you. No kidding! The OP needs to speak for himself. If he's having such a difficult time finding models to work with then it says a LOT more about him than it does about them. It's about creating value in the shoot, not just finding some random people to shoot with for the sake of shooting. There are tons of clubs and meetup groups for that.
However, after reviewing the OPs portfolio, I can say I think I've figured out his issue. If he would so graciously like to post in the critique section, the answer to his problem will reveal itself.
Photographer
Jason McKendricks
Posts: 6024
Chico, California, US
Wow.
OP put his name on that and everything.
Photographer
Weldphoto
Posts: 845
Charleston, South Carolina, US
DeanLautermilch wrote:
A short addition to my website after two weeks of TFP cancellations.
https://deanlautermilch.com/the-games-t … dels-play/ I don't see anywhere on his post that he is asking us for our opinion on what he wrote. What I see in the replies is what I think is a major issue with this forum - people can't leave things alone. There seems to be a need to respond whether or not a response is asked for. Sadly, as in this case the responses have no helpful content only self-righteous negative remarks. Nothing useful.
I suspect all of us who have been at this with any degree of seriousness have encountered most of the things he writes about and none of us like it. Was posting that on his website a wise thing? In my opinion, no it wasn't. But he didn't ask me or any of us. So I think the Forum would be better served if there was less off-the-cuff, knee jerk response and more attempt to be helpful, something we all need from time to time.
Model
Liv Sage
Posts: 431
Seattle, Washington, US
Sorta funny that one of the reasons listed for a tfp model to cancel is "I got called into work."
Well, imagine that.
Photographer
Al_Vee Photography
Posts: 111
Asheville, North Carolina, US
Who pissed in your cheerios?
Photographer
Jason McKendricks
Posts: 6024
Chico, California, US
Weldphoto wrote:
I don't see anywhere on his post that he is asking us for our opinion on what he wrote. What I see in the replies is what I think is a major issue with this forum - people can't leave things alone. There seems to be a need to respond whether or not a response is asked for. Sadly, as in this case the responses have no helpful content only self-righteous negative remarks. Nothing useful.
I suspect all of us who have been at this with any degree of seriousness have encountered most of the things he writes about and none of us like it. Was posting that on his website a wise thing? In my opinion, no it wasn't. But he didn't ask me or any of us. So I think the Forum would be better served if there was less off-the-cuff, knee jerk response and more attempt to be helpful, something we all need from time to time. When somebody postd on a forum they should expect replies. That's kind of the point of forums.
Model
Model Sarah
Posts: 40987
Columbus, Ohio, US
Liv Sage wrote:
Sorta funny that one of the reasons listed for a tfp model to cancel is "I got called into work."
Well, imagine that.
Exactly. "Hm shoot crap with this guy or money for food."
Photographer
JSouthworth
Posts: 1830
Kingston upon Hull, England, United Kingdom
You know what they say though don't you? Money talks....TFP shoots are now largely a part of history in the UK.
Model
Model Sarah
Posts: 40987
Columbus, Ohio, US
JSouthworth wrote:
You know what they say though don't you? Money talks....TFP shoots are now largely a part of history in the UK. I guess it has just always bothered me (and I have been doing this for 20 years) that photographers who picked up this EXPENSIVE hobby, used to (and still do) say; "this isn't my profession, no profit, so I can't pay you." Like, yeah we know this isn't your job. It's your hobby. This is my JOB. Even famous photographers I worked with paid me because that's what you do. This isn't a fashion/commercial agency. This guy's attitude is very similar. He wonders why he gets shit models for trade, well pay a professional. WHAT AN IDEA. 
Photographer
Focuspuller
Posts: 2767
Los Angeles, California, US
Model Sarah wrote:
I guess it has just always bothered me (and I have been doing this for 20 years) that photographers who picked up this EXPENSIVE hobby, used to (and still do) say; "this isn't my profession, no profit, so I can't pay you." Like, yeah we know this isn't your job. It's your hobby. This is my JOB. Even famous photographers I worked with paid me because that's what you do. This isn't a fashion/commercial agency. This guy's attitude is very similar. He wonders why he gets shit models for trade, well pay a professional. WHAT AN IDEA. Excellent point. "Admire the expensive gear I willingly spend money on, but YOU?"
This may be off topic, but It also irks me how many photographers do not credit models. Maybe some models don't want the "exposure." OK, but if this were a real "community", there would be an option provided for photographers to include their model's booking info with posted photos, with the model's permission. This would be a service benefitting models AND photographers. OK, rant over.
Model
Model Sarah
Posts: 40987
Columbus, Ohio, US
Focuspuller wrote:
Excellent point. "Admire the expensive gear I willingly spend money on, but YOU?"
This may be off topic, but It also irks me how many photographers do not credit models. Maybe some models don't want the "exposure." OK, but if this were a real "community", there would be an option provided for photographers to include their model's booking info with posted photos, with the model's permission. This would be a service benefitting models AND photographers. OK, rant over. I love the; "Oh I really want to but I just bought a lens!" Have fun photographing that tree. They show up in super nice cars, the newest iPhone but "your rates are too expensive. Let me low-ball you." Those guys are pretty similar.
It used to be, even photographers (both new and pro) would credit me and give me the image when they paid me and they did NOT have to do that when they pay me. If I had their image in my portfolio, they would get more traffic to theirs. They knew it was all around good thing to share the art and credit each other.
Another rant against trade; A few years ago I had booked a trade shoot with Barron Claiborne in NYC. A model friend of mine worked with him all the time, sang his praises etc. He liked my look so we agreed. Normally not a type of photographer I would work with but something about his creativity I liked a lot. I was excited to work with him but I rarely had traded with people. I am friends with Jock Sturges ffs and he still hired me. Anyway, I was coming back from Staten Island and his studio was near the WTC. Perfect. We worked together for maybe 2 hours? He did some fantastic bodypaint, amazing creative ideas, and shot it with an 8x10 film camera - which I believe he was not entirely familiar with so it took him a while to take the frame. It was "work" working with him, which I love. I really don't mind a challenge.
Never once got anything back from him until I started bugging him - which is something I do not do. FINALLY 2 years later he sent two pictures - which were just alright. I am not asking him to show me everything, that is silly. But it just seemed like a giant waste of time in hindsight. I understand him being famous but that is no excuse. When I worked with Boris Vallejo he paid me because he knew he didn't have to send a picture of the painting he did of me. (I still kinda cry over that one...)
Lesson learned for me. *shrug*
Model
Liv Sage
Posts: 431
Seattle, Washington, US
Model Sarah wrote:
Exactly. "Hm shoot crap with this guy or money for food." Do I need a place to live? Is gas for my car necessary? Do my pets really need to eat and have vet appointments or can I just let them die? Is electricity necessary for modern living? Is heat in the winter something I need or will a big sleeping bag suffice? Do potato chips cost money? What is the price of a ramen noodle? Can I pay for them with 5 jpegs? If I go to the store, and the clerk smiles at me and scans wrong, is everything for free? Will they let me live in the public library? What if I hide really well in the reference section with my sleeping bag? If I get arrested for refusing to leave the library, will jail give me free food? And how long will jail let me stay for free? If they kick me out of jail, do I have to pay a fine? If I have no money for the fine, will I go back to jail? Will I get free food? Will I owe another fine? If I never pay any of the fines, can I live in jail?
Model
Model Sarah
Posts: 40987
Columbus, Ohio, US
Liv Sage wrote:
Do I need a place to live? Is gas for my car necessary? Do my pets really need to eat and have vet appointments or can I just let them die? Is electricity necessary for modern living? Is heat in the winter something I need or will a big sleeping bag suffice? Do potato chips cost money? What is the price of a ramen noodle? Can I pay for them with 5 jpegs? If I go to the store, and the clerk smiles at me and scans wrong, is everything for free? Will they let me live in the public library? What if I hide really well in the reference section with my sleeping bag? If I get arrested for refusing to leave the library, will jail give me free food? And how long will jail let me stay for free? If they kick me out of jail, do I have to pay a fine? If I have no money for the fine, will I go back to jail? Will I get free food? Will I owe another fine? If I never pay any of the fines, can I live in jail? AAAAALLLLLLLL THAAAAT
5 jpegs! hahahahaha
I feel like people who take up photography not wanting to pay models adequately just have this HUGE disconnect with any of those thoughts, at least actively. Some of us have been through these things (I am currently due to possible health issues. Name the machine, and I am going through it currently).
*Point is, I have Vegas odds they haven't had thoughts like this.*
Photographer
Al_Vee Photography
Posts: 111
Asheville, North Carolina, US
Model Sarah wrote:
AAAAALLLLLLLL THAAAAT
5 jpegs! hahahahaha
I feel like people who take up photography not wanting to pay models adequately just have this HUGE disconnect with any of those thoughts, at least actively. Some of us have been through these things (I am currently due to possible health issues. Name the machine, and I am going through it currently).
*Point is, I have Vegas odds they haven't had thoughts like this.* Unfortunately, a lot of incels get into photography, for whatever reason. They see women as worthless and annoying to begin with and many models happen to be women. The same people who want to work with models, but get pissed when quoted rates, are also the people who tip their waitress 50 cents, and complain about Sears ads that feature plus-size lingerie.
Photographer
Roaring 20s
Posts: 137
Los Angeles, California, US
Model Sarah wrote:
Another rant against trade; that reminds me of why I stopped shooting trade, I stopped wanting an obligation to send images in any time frame. I could play games with clout, point out areas where I'm published, wow with my composition and processing techniques, but I didn't want to. Models working for free are flaky, or that block of time gets deprioritized, compared to when you just book a professional using money.
on the topic of credits, I'm pretty indifferent nowadays. I used to like the social media aspect of sites like this but its fairly pointless. Nowadays I just message photographers, collectors or brands about the model in their portfolio offsite and how to contact her. Primarily because that means "she showed up", and everyone involved loves the more personal recognition this way too.
and that's paid dividends because yeah there are a lot of models that don't want credit or don't advertise as being models, or for that genre, I would have never found them without reaching out to the host of where I saw them.
Model
Model Sarah
Posts: 40987
Columbus, Ohio, US
Al_Vee Photography wrote:
Unfortunately, a lot of incels get into photography, for whatever reason. They see women as worthless and annoying to begin with and many models happen to be women. The same people who want to work with models, but get pissed when quoted rates, are also the people who tip their waitress 50 cents, and complain about Sears ads that feature plus-size lingerie. You are definitely not wrong.
Model
Model Sarah
Posts: 40987
Columbus, Ohio, US
Roaring 20s wrote:
that reminds me of why I stopped shooting trade, I stopped wanting an obligation to send images in any time frame. I could play games with clout, point out areas where I'm published, wow with my composition and processing techniques, but I didn't want to. Models working for free are flaky, or that block of time gets deprioritized, compared to when you just book a professional using money.
on the topic of credits, I'm pretty indifferent nowadays. I used to like the social media aspect of sites like this but its fairly pointless. Nowadays I just message photographers, collectors or brands about the model in their portfolio offsite and how to contact her. Primarily because that means "she showed up", and everyone involved loves the more personal recognition this way too.
and that's paid dividends because yeah there are a lot of models that don't want credit or don't advertise as being models, or for that genre, I would have never found them without reaching out to the host of where I saw them. It's funny, I am a photographer as well but I just don't ever check my MM page here because I often get requests for hire and exactly what you said above is why I don't want that OR trade because of the obligations. I shoot film and there is no telling when I will get even one roll back.
Photographer
JSouthworth
Posts: 1830
Kingston upon Hull, England, United Kingdom
Model Sarah wrote:
I guess it has just always bothered me (and I have been doing this for 20 years) that photographers who picked up this EXPENSIVE hobby, used to (and still do) say; "this isn't my profession, no profit, so I can't pay you." Like, yeah we know this isn't your job. It's your hobby. This is my JOB. Even famous photographers I worked with paid me because that's what you do. This isn't a fashion/commercial agency. This guy's attitude is very similar. He wonders why he gets shit models for trade, well pay a professional. WHAT AN IDEA. In the UK too we get people whingeing about the cost of doing photography and it's boring, because they're talking about their own comfort. A variation on this is when people demand to know whether it's more expensive to be a photographer or a model. In their case it probably doesn't make any difference.
Photographer
P R E S T O N
Posts: 2602
Birmingham, England, United Kingdom
JSouthworth wrote:
....TFP shoots are now largely a part of history in the UK. Yes and no.
According to a strict interpretation of the term TFP then yes, Time For Prints ceased to be a thing in the UK more than a dozen years ago. However, other forms of TF are still very much alive and kicking here. What's changed since, say, 2010 is that both models and photographers have become much more discerning about who they will TF with.
Photographer
Red Sky Photography
Posts: 3898
Germantown, Maryland, US
Roaring 20s wrote:
on the topic of credits, I'm pretty indifferent nowadays. I used to like the social media aspect of sites like this but its fairly pointless. Nowadays I just message photographers, collectors or brands about the model in their portfolio offsite and how to contact her. Primarily because that means "she showed up", and everyone involved loves the more personal recognition this way too. Ten years ago when I was booking and shooting models on MM, I would often look through the Pic of the Day contests and see someone I thought might be a good fit for my style of shooting. Hardly any photographers were crediting their models. I tried messaging the photographers and either got no reply or indignant responses like 'Find your own Model.'
You would think that if a photographer liked working with a particular Model that he would want them to find more work and continue to model rather than chance that she would stop modeling due to lack of work.
This continues today as I rarely see Models credited in the Pic of the Day or the 18+ contest.
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