Glamour Boulevard wrote:
I had a thread about this a couple of days ago. I asked a MOD to kill it because I saw it getting ugly.

To me the TFP/TFCD plus kit fee is like " Scratch my back please, if you do I will scratch yours for $50 bucks".

WOW! Didn't catch it; GB do you have that link? I would like to see some of the responses.
Thanks my friend.

i M a g e ye wrote:

WOW! Didn't catch it; GB do you have that link? I would like to see some of the responses.
Thanks my friend.

No, like I said I had the thread killed(deleted) it was about to gettin pretty ugly.

LeBrone wrote:
Quality MU is really expensive,

Quality professional cameras run from 1,000-20,000 bucks, good light sets can run upwards of 500-1000 per light,the laptop I use for editing cost almost 3 grand, often a photographers editing charge can reach 50 bucks an hour or more....
And you were saying?.............

LeBrone wrote:
Quality MU is really expensive, so you are helping to cover the cost of the supplies. They are providing the skills in return for images. My MUA's kit is worth thousands, and the mu has a short life span and constantly needs to be replenished.

cameras and lights are also worth thousands...they have only so much life in them also..... should us photographes start charging an equipment fee?

LeBrone wrote:
Quality MU is really expensive, so you are helping to cover the cost of the supplies. They are providing the skills in return for images. My MUA's kit is worth thousands, and the mu has a short life span and constantly needs to be replenished.

I do understand the replenish part but I believe everyone involve is sacrificing something why should an MUA be the only one receiving both monies and images?  I’m responding very humbly.

Scott wrote:
So is it wrong to say I will do a tfcd shoot and if you want editing done afterwards we will talk prices?

Very Good point...

LeBrone wrote:
Quality MU is really expensive, so you are helping to cover the cost of the supplies. They are providing the skills in return for images. My MUA's kit is worth thousands, and the mu has a short life span and constantly needs to be replenished.

Quality cameras and lighting equipment are really expensive, so you should be helping cover the costs of them too.  The photographer (and model) are providing the skills in return for images.  My camera and lighting equipment is worth thousands, and the camera has a short life span and my equipment needs to be updated constantly and supplies replenished (mailers, CDs, postage, light bulbs, modeling lamps, latest software, more disk space, etc.)

TFP is a trade of talent - an investment.  We all have out costs and eat them to benefit all our investments into a successful shoot.  We all gain from the shoot, right?  So to answer the OP, TFP is supposed to be something everyone shares the expense of.

i M a g e ye wrote:

I do understand the replenish part but I believe everyone involve is sacrificing something why should an MUA be the only one receiving both monies and images?  I’m responding very humbly.

i do agree with you though in the sense that everyone should be sacrificing something equally.

Mark Anderson wrote:

Quality cameras and lighting equipment are really expensive, so you should be helping cover the costs of them too.  The photographer (and model) are providing the skills in return for images.  My camera and lighting equipment is worth thousands, and the camera has a short life span and my equipment needs to be updated constantly and supplies replenished (mailers, CDs, postage, light bulbs, modeling lamps, latest software, more disk space, etc.)

TFP is a trade of talent - an investment.  We all have out costs and eat them to benefit all our investments into a successful shoot.  We all gain from the shoot, right?  So to answer the OP, TFP is supposed to be something everyone shares the expense of.

This is how I view it exactly.

LeBrone wrote:

i do agree with you though in the sense that everyone should be sacrificing something equally.

makeup cost vs. photographers equipment cost,,,,,,there won`t be any equal there

Glamour Boulevard wrote:

Quality professional cameras run from 1,000-20,000 bucks, good light sets can run upwards of 500-1000 per light,the laptop I use for editing cost almost 3 grand, often a photographers editing charge can reach 50 bucks an hour or more....
And you were saying?.............

Saw this one coming. lol

i M a g e ye wrote:
Okay so what is 'A kit fee'?  When, MUA's are coming in for TFP/cd work. I'm starting to see this lot. I thought TFP/cd meant = all involved would receive images from the shoot. I understand if you're traveling from another city but isn't everyone traveling from somewhere too? Please someone help me understand. If it's, TFP/cd; how come the MUA receive a kit fee, plus images?

WHY WHY WHY do so many people want to make hard and fast rules about this stuff? Ever notice how the value and prices of a lot of things in this world fluctuate? There's a reason for this: the simple laws of supply and demand. There are so many variables that go into a business transaction, trying to write unbreakable rules is ridiculous.

Here's an example -- 16 months ago, I was shooting a lot of catalog and commercial product work. I used a lot of models and MUA. When I did a TFP shoot, I used the same MUA I used for the commercial work. I had no difficulty asking my MUA to shoot for TFP, because we both knew that when I got a paying client, I was going to send the MU work to her, and make sure she was paid well by the client.

Today, my work has changed and I'm doing a lot of event and political work. I don't need a MUA for most of my paying work, so when I do a TFP shoot with a model, I have no problem paying the MUA's kit fee if she asks for it. Obviously, I try to find MUA who are willing to do good work in exchange for a CD or prints, but if I can't, I do what I have to do.

Everything is negotiable in this world. We all make business decisions based on our own particular situation and circumstances. I think all of us naturally want to make the most amount of money we can from our work, and pay the least amount of money for the services we receive. From this impulse comes NEGOTIATION. Some of us are just better at it than others. And some of us want to put spin out there to convince the world to do everything in a way that is best for us. Good luck with that!

Paul

Robert Perez wrote:
Hi,

Honestly I do not see a problem with asking a kit fee as long as it is disscussed up front if this is not mentioned in the upfront disscussion about the shoot and brung up the day of the shoot I think it is wrong. When you work with a skilled MUA they can add alot to a pic.
  At times I ask for carservice money both ways because of the gear I have to bring.

  Also if you do not think the MUA is worth the kit fee then find one you do not have to pay a kit fee.

This is a cool idea but I'm trying to find the difference between TFP/CD and Kit Fee. Should a kit fee be associated with and TFP/CD at any point? If so why call it a TFP/CD? Humbling replying.

Glamour Boulevard wrote:

makeup cost vs. photographers equipment cost,,,,,,there won`t be any equal there

cost varies, i've seen mua's invest $100 in a single shoot, and i've had awesome pics taken by photogs with me on the street and all he had was a 35mm camera and a great eye. I do agree that photography equipment can be expensive, and i think TFP should be that for all involved. but anyways, this is one of those potentially endless threads, and it feels like a roomful of siblings having a discussion, so i am going to continue picking out headshots, have a great day everyone, happy shooting!

LeBrone wrote:

cost varies, i've seen mua's invest $100 in a single shoot, and i've had awesome pics taken by photogs with me on the street and all he had was a 35mm camera and a great eye. I do agree that photography equipment can be expensive, and i think TFP should be that for all involved. but anyways, this is one of those potentially endless threads, and it feels like a roomful of siblings having a discussion, so i am going to continue picking out headshots, have a great day everyone, happy shooting!

Look at the prices of some of the good professional 35mm cameras,also.

i M a g e ye wrote:

This is a cool idea but I'm trying to find the difference between TFP/CD and Kit Fee. Should a kit fee be associated with and TFP/CD at any point? If so why call it a TFP/CD? Humbling replying.

I see your point and I am not sure if this answers your question. If you are approaching someone for a TFCD and they say I will wave my rate but you will have to cover my expenses.
They are more in a position to do that because you are approaching them for the shoot not them you. Some people just work this way.
   I agree and understand the concept that all should cover their own expenses but to me if the MUA is worth the kit fee I do not see why not and it is better then paying a rate.
  Again if for example I do not think they are worth the fee I just will decline and look for another one.

Robert Perez wrote:

I see your point and I am not sure if this answers your question. If you are approaching someone for a TFCD and they say I will wave my rate but you will have to cover my expenses.
They are more in a position to do that because you are approaching them for the shoot not them you. Some people just work this way.
   I agree and understand the concept that all should cover their own expenses but to me if the MUA is worth the kit fee I do not see why not and it is better then paying a rate.
  Again if for example I do not think they are worth the fee I just will decline and look for another one.

Thank you...I wish the forums where a lot safer to be in. LOL Great work too. :-)

Glamour Boulevard wrote:

Quality professional cameras run from 1,000-20,000 bucks, good light sets can run upwards of 500-1000 per light,the laptop I use for editing cost almost 3 grand, often a photographers editing charge can reach 50 bucks an hour or more....
And you were saying?.............

You should not be editing images for a trade with a MUA. They need unedited images. Perhaps white balance, exposure corrections, and cropping are OK but other than that Edited images in a MUA portfolio are unethical.

i M a g e ye wrote:

Thank you...I wish the forums where a lot safer to be in. LOL Great work too. :-)

Thank you and I agree(Ducking).lol  Much Success

ArtisticDigitalImages wrote:
Perhaps white balance, exposure corrections, and cropping are OK but other than that Edited images in a MUA portfolio are unethical.

that is still considered editing.As for it being unethical, I am not saying I agree or not but I see it done all the time.

Mary wrote:
You pay for what you need to pay for.  If you as a photographer have a killer portfolio, chances are the artist will be dying to work with you and you wont hear the words "kit fee"

Not necessarily true. I had a kit fee thread going in stylists chat yesterday after a stylist emailed me, told me she loved my work and would love to work with me and asked if it could be arranged.I asked if she was looking for TFP/TFCD or paid. She replied with "TFP/TFCD, plus a kit fee"

Glamour Boulevard wrote:

Quality professional cameras run from 1,000-20,000 bucks, good light sets can run upwards of 500-1000 per light,the laptop I use for editing cost almost 3 grand, often a photographers editing charge can reach 50 bucks an hour or more....
And you were saying?.............

You forgot to mention the times that you will shoot on the white seamless paper.  As soon as you walk on the paper, you get to throw that portion away.  Sure, it's only $60, but...

Frankly, this sounds like a pissing contest where the only thing that's going to happen is everyone is going to end up stinky and wet.

I think that in a tfcd situation, everyone should put down the price tags and bring something to the table to share.  If you don't have anything to share, don't take the job.  If my pictures won't add to your portfolio, don't take the job.

At the end of the day, a couple of things should be happening:  1) Everyone is tired from working hard.  2)  Everyone is smiling because of their contribution.  3)  Everyone gets something they can use.

If those things aren't happening, you can always stay home and enjoy American Idol, or my favorite — hard liquor.

Mark Fellows wrote:
photog equip and time to edit costs money.   However cameras and lighting don't get used up in the same way.
Every time you use lighting you don't have less light to apply to the next person.  Lighting and cameras don't get used up near as fast as makeup.
Mark

Each pop of the flash unit shortens its useful life until poof, one day they dont work and the bulb needs to be replaced at $90 per, or a transformer or condenser fails = expensive repair.
Same answer as above - each shutter click costs me money. When the shutter fails, or the electronics fails (happened on a recent wedding - camera worked in the morning while testing and failed at the shoot. Good thing my backup worked, too) the repair or replacement cost has to be accounted for.
Cameras are a capital expense and are depreciated over several years of useful life. Each shutter click consumes some of its useful life and costs me money.

The concept of a trade shoot should be that each person contributes their time/talent/skills, whatever and they need to agree that the terms of the trade are fair to themselves - not necessarily equal, but fair to all parties involved.

Not sure how to quote something correctly - sorry - how do I selectively quote?

SmartAz Photography wrote:

You forgot to mention the times that you will shoot on the white seamless paper.  As soon as you walk on the paper, you get to throw that portion away.  Sure, it's only $60, but...

I never use it, the look of the plain white background has become too stereotypical and plain in my book. One less expense for me as a result.