Photographer
Ecklipse
Posts: 92
Los Angeles, California, US
My question is due to the never ending argue about escorts.... "I´m not shooting without my escort", "If you bring an escort there´s no shooting"
I do understand model´s concern about going to a shooting and find out the photographer is actually an sick pervert whose only purpose is to rape her and drop the corpse into a ditch... ok, that was terrible, but you get the point.
So my question is: have you even known about an actual attack against a model or a situation where the model´s life was actually in danger in a shooting due to a violent photographer?
I´m not taking any side in the old discussion about escorts, I do allow escorts in my shootings when the model request me that (I understand them because I shoot bondage and I know not all models are comfortable with that) but I would like to know if have you ever known about a situation that really justify the presence of an escort to save a model from a violent photographer
But anyway, I gotta add, even when I let models bringing escorts when the ask me to, it´s annoying to have a random guy telling you "you should move this light here" or "why don´t you shoot like this".... I´m like "just shut up already man and let me work, I know how to do it!"
Photographer
Designit - Edward Olson
Posts: 1708
West Hollywood, California, US
I was once at a shoot where a model attacked a model/photographer.
Sort of.
I was shooting a model and her husband was a second model. On a break, he whipped out his cell phone and snapped a few pictures of her with it. He shows it to her and she scrolls through them, then scrolls one picture too far and finds...
A picture of another girl.
That she knows.
Is under 18.
So, she is pissed and he starts explaining (badly) why he has a picture of a minor (dressed, but in a cute pose) on his phone.
Thankfully, I thought at the moment, she remains calm enough to continue the shoot.
We get back on set and I'm snapping shots and I can see she is not happy. She makes a few baiting comments but he doesn't want to talk about it.
I think we're going to get through it but suddenly...
WHAM!
She pulls her hand back and smacks him HARD across the face.
And he totally took it.
So I stopped shooting and said I had enough shots.
Since it was all about him taking posed pictures, I figure he qualified as a model and photographer for this story.
She told me later that she suspected him of having a thing for underage girls.
She left him not too long later.
On a related note, I saw in the paper that he had passed away a few years back, of reported natural causes, which was a shock because he was only in his 30s.
Photographer
GER Photography
Posts: 8463
Imperial, California, US
Yes, a few years ago here in California some asswad "photographer" took a girl into the desert and killed her. So, yes it does happen. Do a google search for model killed or model found dead you'll be surprised How many stories show up.
Photographer
Photos by Lorrin
Posts: 7026
Eugene, Oregon, US
Yes
Both times it was her escort that beat her up later
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 23575
Salem, Oregon, US
a model told me she had been violated on a bondage shoot.
and i've had photographers tell me about violence they had heard about on a shoot.
assuming these stories were true, then people i know have either been affected by it or know someone who has been affected.
i've also heard stories several times about models who were planning on quitting because something bad happened.
hopefully it's not an everyday occurrence but i suspect it does happen sometimes. but i've also seen posts from models who've done hundreds of shoots and have only had a few problems. of course some problems you might encounter are worse than others.
for my part i've done a lot of shoots and only once was i a little concerned (boyfriend of a stripper) but he just turned out to be running on little sleep and a bit grumpy.
Model
Amber Dawn - Indiana
Posts: 6255
Salem, Indiana, US
GER Photography wrote:
Yes, a few years ago here in California some asswad "photographer" took a girl into the desert and killed her. So, yes it does happen. Do a google search for model killed or model found dead you'll be surprised How many stories show up. Yup it's not uncommon, It does happen!
Photographer
DwLPhoto
Posts: 808
Palo Alto, California, US
The only time a model brought an escort at a shoot I did, I understand...it was in an abandoned military base.
But he was a little guy who wouldn't have been able to defend her, let alone himself.
Model
D A N I
Posts: 4627
Little Rock, Arkansas, US
DwLPhoto wrote:
The only time a model brought an escort at a shoot I did, I understand...it was in an abandoned military base.
But he was a little guy who wouldn't have been able to defend her, let alone himself. You don't know that. I've seen many nerdy looking tiny men that could kick ass like a MMA fighter. Besides guns and knifes don't see body size.
Photographer
Capitol City Boudoir
Posts: 774
Sacramento, California, US
I did a web search and only found one occurrence back in 2004 where a "porn model" was killed by a photographer over a payment dispute.
I also found one where a photographer was killed by a model over artistic differences.
I found no case where someone pretended to be a photographer and lured a model to her death.
It doesn't make a bit of difference to me. We have a waiting room in our studio where llama herders can sit and keep themselves occupied for the 2-3 hours that a shoot takes.
Photographer
Revenge Photography
Posts: 1905
Horsham, Victoria, Australia
Danielle Reid wrote:
You don't know that. I've seen many nerdy looking tiny men that could kick ass like a MMA fighter. Besides guns and knifes don't see body size. I don't think I'd be comfortable with an escort at a shoot carrying a gun or a knife. Especially since I can't do a reference check on the escort.
Photographer
GER Photography
Posts: 8463
Imperial, California, US
Capitol City Boudoir wrote:
I did a web search and only found one occurrence back in 2004 where a "porn model" was killed by a photographer over a payment dispute.
I also found one where a photographer was killed by a model over artistic differences.
I found no case where someone pretended to be a photographer and lured a model to her death.
It doesn't make a bit of difference to me. We have a waiting room in our studio where escorts can sit and keep themselves occupied for the 2-3 hours that a shoot takes. Your search engine sucks! I just did a yahoo search "model found dead" and got a bunch!
Photographer
Revenge Photography
Posts: 1905
Horsham, Victoria, Australia
GER Photography wrote:
Your search engine sucks! I just did a yahoo search "model found dead" and got a bunch! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mo … st_century
Looks like models are more likely to die by their own hand than anothers and for those murdered it seems the boyfriend is the likely suspect. Kind of ironic when its the boyfriend that is the most common choice to bring along as an escort.
Interestingly, none of the murders that had links was perpetrated by a photographer.
Photographer
Danny Bs Photos
Posts: 11
Lemesos, Government controlled area, Cyprus
It strikes me that you're more likely to be murdered on your way too or from a shoot than at the shoot itself. If the photographer hasn't murdered any of his previous models,I think you'll be ok. It's funny when a model says she won't work without an escort, but frequently goes home with a guy she's met while drunk in a bar.
Photographer
Chicchowmein
Posts: 14585
Palm Beach, Florida, US
Colorado Model Amber wrote:
Yup it's not uncommon, It does happen! since it is so common you should be able to cite some legitimate cases and sources
Fact is you are more likely to be assaulted or murdered by your boyfriend, husband or significant other.
And if you would like some statistics on that I can dig some up for you.
Oh and just a little btw, I am a woman.
In reference to the OP all the violence against models I have known has been by the model's boyfriend, SO or husband.
Jealousy is a mother.
Model
Steve Russ
Posts: 74
Orlando, Florida, US
Revenge Photography wrote:
I don't think I'd be comfortable with an escort at a shoot carrying a gun or a knife. Especially since I can't do a reference check on the escort. With concealed weapons permits anyone can be carrying a gun including the model. You really would not know they had it unless it was needed.
Photographer
Nico Simon Princely
Posts: 1972
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Colorado Model Amber wrote:
Yup it's not uncommon, It does happen! That's not true. It is uncommon.
Common:
widespread; general; ordinary: common knowledge.
of frequent occurrence; usual; familiar: a common event; a common mistake.
Common is something that happens all of the time.
Look up the stats. More women are date raped, beat up, abused, or killed by their boyfriends or husbands than photographers. It's very UN-common for a a model to be killed by a photographer. And the case that is being refereed to is Linda Sobek. It's sad but it is also very rare statistically. Think of all off the hundreads of thousands of photoshoots that happen every day. Now how many of those end in a tragedy? (not counting shitty GWC pictures)
Run the numbers and you will see modeling without an escort is safer than going to the Doctor which several years back was the 3rd leading cause of Death in the U.S. due to medical mistakes and PROPERLY prescribed medications.
This does not mean you should not trust your gut feeling, or check someone out, or meet with someone first, let someone know where you are and check in by phone. You should do all of that!
And while I'm against escorts with a few exceptions. I think if your doing bondage an or some gory stuff that an escort may be a reasonable request. To me a person wanting to photography dead girls is a warning sign and BTW the guy that killed Linda Sobek was into that or so I read.
If you really feel your life is in danger and need and escort you probably should not be doing that shoot in the first place!
I don't like escorts on my shoots but I encourage, the models checking in by phone or being dropped off by one. Or they can bring their own MUA. Just no boyfriends, husbands, mothers, sluggo managers No one that's going to make the model self-conscious or that might get jealous and be a problem.
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 12067
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US
Ecklipse wrote:
My question is due to the never ending argue about escorts.... "I´m not shooting without my escort", "If you bring an escort there´s no shooting"
I do understand model´s concern about going to a shooting and find out the photographer is actually an sick pervert whose only purpose is to rape her and drop the corpse into a ditch... ok, that was terrible, but you get the point.
So my question is: have you even known about an actual attack against a model or a situation where the model´s life was actually in danger in a shooting due to a violent photographer?
I´m not taking any side in the old discussion about escorts, I do allow escorts in my shootings when the model request me that (I understand them because I shoot bondage and I know not all models are comfortable with that) but I would like to know if have you ever known about a situation that really justify the presence of an escort to save a model from a violent photographer
But anyway, I gotta add, even when I let models bringing escorts when the ask me to, it´s annoying to have a random guy telling you "you should move this light here" or "why don´t you shoot like this".... I´m like "just shut up already man and let me work, I know how to do it!" I've heard claims, varying from unlikely to highly believable, and from mild, stupid, stuff, to outrageous assaults. The only time a model was actually harmed at one of my shoots, beyond scratches, was when her friend dropped a big steel bar on her foot. Several hours of surgery resulted.
Photographer
GER Photography
Posts: 8463
Imperial, California, US
Revenge Photography wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mo … st_century
Looks like models are more likely to die by their own hand than anothers and for those murdered it seems the boyfriend is the likely suspect. Kind of ironic when its the boyfriend that is the most common choice to bring along as an escort.
Interestingly, none of the murders that had links was perpetrated by a photographer. Yes, the story of Dorothy Stratten comes to mind.
Photographer
Nico Simon Princely
Posts: 1972
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
GER Photography wrote:
Yes, the story of Dorothy Stratten comes to mind. So you might say that bringing the BF to a shoot that has control and jealousy issues could actually endanger the model.
Photographer
Miss Photog
Posts: 288
VALLEY VILLAGE, California, US
yes.
I have been in a situation before where the photographer all of a sudden had wandering hands and made me very uncomfortable. I was definitely afraid that I would be raped or worse. He was very pervy & creepy. I don't know how the situation would have escalated if the way I handled it had been any different. Had I had an escort I doubt any of that would have happened.
However, I still to this day generally do not bring an escort. The only time I might consider it would be if it was in a secluded location with a photographer I had never worked with before and it was just him & I, or if it was a bondage-type shoot or any shoot where I am restrained. And IF I brought an escort (which I've done maybe 3 times in 4 years), they wouldn't necessarily be in the studio with us during the shoot and if they were, it would be someone who would have a book or something to quietly entertain themselves and would sit and keep their mouth shut. If the photographer wanted them to assist, that would be one thing, but they would never interfere in the shoot in any way or I would kick them out myself.
Photographer
Chicchowmein
Posts: 14585
Palm Beach, Florida, US
Miss Photog wrote:
yes.
I have been in a situation before where the photographer all of a sudden had wandering hands and made me very uncomfortable. I was definitely afraid that I would be raped or worse. He was very pervy & creepy. I don't know how the situation would have escalated if the way I handled it had been any different. Had I had an escort I doubt any of that would have happened.
However, I still to this day generally do not bring an escort. The only time I might consider it would be if it was in a secluded location with a photographer I had never worked with before and it was just him & I, or if it was a bondage-type shoot or any shoot where I am restrained. And IF I brought an escort (which I've done maybe 3 times in 4 years), they wouldn't necessarily be in the studio with us during the shoot and if they were, it would be someone who would have a book or something to quietly entertain themselves and would sit and keep their mouth shut. If the photographer wanted them to assist, that would be one thing, but they would never interfere in the shoot in any way or I would kick them out myself. Did you leave the shoot?
Photographer
GER Photography
Posts: 8463
Imperial, California, US
Nico Simon Princely wrote:
So you might say that bringing the BF to a shoot that has control and jealousy issues could actually endanger the model. Simply being around someone with such issues is dangerous (actual law enforcement experience talking)
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45205
San Juan Bautista, California, US
GER Photography wrote:
Yes, a few years ago here in California some asswad "photographer" took a girl into the desert and killed her. So, yes it does happen. Do a google search for model killed or model found dead you'll be surprised How many stories show up. That was way before the Internet. He had built up her trust over time and then killed her. An llama herder would not have saved her. You are talking about one incident where a photographer for car magazines did murder a model who was NOT a stranger out of how many other incidents of this happening? One or two?
Her name was Linda Sobek;
http://www.people.com/people/archive/ar … 25,00.html
Back in 1992, I was kidnapped by two woman ... one posing as a model and the other her "llama herder" ... does that count? I shot pictures of the model. Then under threats ... she proceeded force me into her car, took me to my photo lab, then made me process the film, give her the negatives and proofs ... that was the last I saw of her.
Photographer
Worlds Of Water
Posts: 37732
Rancho Cucamonga, California, US
Over 400 groupshoots in 21 years (and 200+ studio rentals) here... not a single incident of violence ever experienced or reported. And for the record... escorts ARE NOT ALLOWED to attend SM events... they are however allowed to drop off models and pick them up. Completely untarnished record... and it's gonna stay that way... 
Photographer
GER Photography
Posts: 8463
Imperial, California, US
Patrick Walberg wrote:
That was way before the Internet. He had built up her trust over time and then killed her. An escort would not have saved her. You are talking about one incident where a photographer for car magazines did murder a model who was NOT a stranger out of how many other incidents of this happening? One or two?
Her name was Linda Sobek;
http://www.people.com/people/archive/ar … 25,00.html
Yep! That's the one!
An "escort" can't protect anyone, what's one more bullet to someone with serious Ill intentions.
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 12067
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US
GER Photography wrote:
Yes, a few years ago here in California some asswad "photographer" took a girl into the desert and killed her. So, yes it does happen. Do a google search for model killed or model found dead you'll be surprised How many stories show up. Colorado Model Amber wrote:
Yup it's not uncommon, It does happen! "Not uncommon"??? Best evidence I've seen, in anything approximating a typical MM shoot, it happens once every five to ten years. Anything is too much, but being attacked by a photographer isn't in the top dozen, probably not the top hundred, dangers faced by any model who makes even a tiny effort to evaluate offers.
Models are in FAR more danger driving to a shoot, or having an ex boyfriend, than they are at a shoot with a photographer where they have done ANY due diligence.
Photographer
Revenge Photography
Posts: 1905
Horsham, Victoria, Australia
Steve Rh wrote:
With concealed weapons permits anyone can be carrying a gun including the model. You really would not know they had it unless it was needed. True, but I can check a models references. Although it doesnt really apply in Australia.
Photographer
Revenge Photography
Posts: 1905
Horsham, Victoria, Australia
GER Photography wrote:
Yes, the story of Dorothy Stratten comes to mind. Wow, you found one but had to look back 30 years.
edit: My bad... Snider her pimp boyfriend killed her and them himself. He wasn't a photographer.
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45205
San Juan Bautista, California, US
GER Photography wrote:
Yes, the story of Dorothy Stratten comes to mind. Revenge Photography wrote:
Wow, you found one but had to look back 30 years. One what???
Dorothy Stratten was killed by her jealous husband.
Photographer
GER Photography
Posts: 8463
Imperial, California, US
Revenge Photography wrote:
Wow, you found one but had to look back 30 years. To pretend that it does not happen is simply like sticking ones head in the sand.
Photographer
Good Egg Productions
Posts: 16713
Orlando, Florida, US
I heard that one time, some people were shot while watching a movie in a theater.
So I don't go to theaters any more.
I also heard that one time, some people were shot and killed in a school.
So I don't go to schools any more.
Then I heard that someone was raped after meeting someone at a bar.
So I don't go to bars any more.
Oh, and there was another story of a spouse killing the other.
So I won't get married.
There's a story in California, I think, of a guy who was shot in a car jacking.
So I don't drive any more.
The point I'm trying to make is that of the millions of photoshoots that happens each year, very VERY few (comparatively) incidents of violence happen. Sadly, too few of those are even reported properly. Certainly, things happen. I know of a couple. But since it's only what I've been told, I can do nothing about it if the models are also not willing to do anything about it.
The FACT is that assaults happen everywhere. Even at photoshoots. The issue is that model photography is probably, but I don't know this as a fact, probably one of the more safe activities for people to participate in.
Photographer
Revenge Photography
Posts: 1905
Horsham, Victoria, Australia
GER Photography wrote:
To pretend that it does not happen is simply like sticking ones head in the sand. I'm not pretending anything Stratten wasn't killed by a photographer. Apparently it was her pimp boyfriend that killed her.
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45205
San Juan Bautista, California, US
Ecklipse wrote:
My question is due to the never ending argue about escorts.... "I´m not shooting without my escort", "If you bring an escort there´s no shooting"
I do understand model´s concern about going to a shooting and find out the photographer is actually an sick pervert whose only purpose is to rape her and drop the corpse into a ditch... ok, that was terrible, but you get the point.
So my question is: have you even known about an actual attack against a model or a situation where the model´s life was actually in danger in a shooting due to a violent photographer?
I´m not taking any side in the old discussion about escorts, I do allow escorts in my shootings when the model request me that (I understand them because I shoot bondage and I know not all models are comfortable with that) but I would like to know if have you ever known about a situation that really justify the presence of an escort to save a model from a violent photographer
But anyway, I gotta add, even when I let models bringing escorts when the ask me to, it´s annoying to have a random guy telling you "you should move this light here" or "why don´t you shoot like this".... I´m like "just shut up already man and let me work, I know how to do it!" No, I have never known of any violence against models by photographers. I have searched the Internet many times to confirm that violence at photo shoots is common and I can't find ANYTHING common about it at all! The vast majority of "murders" of models are done by ex-boyfriends, husbands or otherwise a relative. On the flipside, we have had a popular model who used to post in the forums that is now doing time for a brutal murder and robbery ... not of a photographer, but a tattoo shop owner.
So should I be afraid of models? Even though I was kidnapped by two women who were strangers to me back in 1992? I get to know people the old fashioned and the modern way. I talk with people on the phone, or even meet in person in some cases. I've never had a couple hire me to shoot their wedding without meeting at least once before. Yet I nearly has beaten badly by a bridezilla. I've seen photographers get badly beaten at concerts. Their equipment smashed.
Anyway, my rule is that "no strangers" are allowed at shoots. We all get to know each other, and if we invite guests, it's a mutual decision. The only security we have is for both the model and photographer when we go out on risky locations where equipment might get stolen or we may get harassed by public or authority figures. I've hired security for car shows specifically to protect my models at my booth even though the event security might be there too. Models are far more likely to get molested in tight public events where people are in close proximity than in a studio with as photo crew present. Invited guests are always welcome!
Photographer
Chicchowmein
Posts: 14585
Palm Beach, Florida, US
GER Photography wrote:
Simply being around someone with such issues is dangerous (actual law enforcement experience talking) Man, have you ever seen the statistics on abuse and murder when is comes to cops and ex-cops and their significant others?
I can cite some pretty recent instances without even trying.
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45205
San Juan Bautista, California, US
GER Photography wrote:
To pretend that it does not happen is simply like sticking ones head in the sand. Really????
Provide some more examples please?
I could step off the curb crossing a traffic light and get violently ran over by a car. I'm more likely to get murdered by an angry ex-girlfriend than be kidnapped by models again. So out of easily millions of photo shoots that have happened over the past 10 years, perhaps only one percent have had an occurrence of violence against women?
Any figures at all to back up your premise? International crime statistics perhaps?
Photographer
Chicchowmein
Posts: 14585
Palm Beach, Florida, US
As a matter of fact there was a former MM member that was up on charges for some hinky stuff on set
( I believe it involved drugs, non-payment and adult type stuff -- he was a flippin cop!!)
Yeah
I'd be more afraid of cops and ex-boyfriends, husbands, SO's with jealousy and control issues than your garden variety photographer.
Of course like anything else common sense and trusting your instincts counts for a lot.
Check references. Look at the work. Be smart.
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45205
San Juan Bautista, California, US
Revenge Photography wrote:
Wow, you found one but had to look back 30 years.
edit: My bad... Snider her pimp boyfriend killed her and them himself. He wasn't a photographer. I thought Snider had married her before murdering her?
You are correct that Snider was NOT a photographer.
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45205
San Juan Bautista, California, US
Art of the nude wrote:
Models are in FAR more danger driving to a shoot, or having an ex boyfriend, than they are at a shoot with a photographer where they have done ANY due diligence. Absolutely true!!!
Photographer
Patrick Walberg
Posts: 45205
San Juan Bautista, California, US
Good Egg Productions wrote:
I heard that one time, some people were shot while watching a movie in a theater.
So I don't go to theaters any more.
I also heard that one time, some people were shot and killed in a school.
So I don't go to schools any more.
Then I heard that someone was raped after meeting someone at a bar.
So I don't go to bars any more.
Oh, and there was another story of a spouse killing the other.
So I won't get married.
There's a story in California, I think, of a guy who was shot in a car jacking.
So I don't drive any more.
The point I'm trying to make is that of the millions of photoshoots that happens each year, very VERY few (comparatively) incidents of violence happen. Sadly, too few of those are even reported properly. Certainly, things happen. I know of a couple. But since it's only what I've been told, I can do nothing about it if the models are also not willing to do anything about it.
The FACT is that assaults happen everywhere. Even at photoshoots. The issue is that model photography is probably, but I don't know this as a fact, probably one of the more safe activities for people to participate in. I love this!!!
 So true!
The fear mongering that goes on this site astounds me sometimes.
Photographer
Revenge Photography
Posts: 1905
Horsham, Victoria, Australia
Revenge Photography wrote:
Wow, you found one but had to look back 30 years.
edit: My bad... Snider her pimp boyfriend killed her and them himself. He wasn't a photographer. Patrick Walberg wrote:
I thought Snider had married her before murdering her?
You are correct that Snider was NOT a photographer. Correct, 4 hours sleep makes me a lazy reader. At the time of the murder/suicide he was her estranged husband.
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So true!