MeganElizabeth wrote:
Wow is it me, or have things started to change lately with this whole TFCD deal. There use to be a time where you actually got the prints and I was fine with only getting a few when they were already printed for me. But then Photographers started giving out the CD of most of the images from the shoot. Not necessary raw, but pretty close and if gave you that option of more of choice. It also didn't make you mind working hard for every shot, and doing 10 changes, and driving off to some crazy location.

But as of late, I'm finding that even after discussing the "what is your policy for images" photographers are completely thinking that 4 pics on a CD is worth a half day for you.

I dont get it.
What happened to the creativity?
What happen to the fairness?
What happened to being valued as a model?

I thought it might be one or two douchebag photographers out there, but from what I'm gathering its alot more than that. What gives?

simple...most photographers realize that most of these "models" want a slew of free photos to put up on myspace to give away, and quite frankly, that devalues the work of the photographer and model....but the "model" doesn't see it that way because she thinks that she has all this creativity and can do what she wants. In the "olden" days, since prints couldn't be scanned (no such thing back then) one couldn't do that. And if you tried to reproduce a 4x5, you wouldn't get the clarity, and there was more expense involved, thereby somewhat negating this "free" feeling

MeganElizabeth wrote:
Wow is it me, or have things started to change lately with this whole TFCD deal. There use to be a time where you actually got the prints and I was fine with only getting a few when they were already printed for me. But then Photographers started giving out the CD of most of the images from the shoot. Not necessary raw, but pretty close and if gave you that option of more of choice. It also didn't make you mind working hard for every shot, and doing 10 changes, and driving off to some crazy location.

But as of late, I'm finding that even after discussing the "what is your policy for images" photographers are completely thinking that 4 pics on a CD is worth a half day for you.

I dont get it.
What happened to the creativity?
What happen to the fairness?
What happened to being valued as a model?

I thought it might be one or two douchebag photographers out there, but from what I'm gathering its alot more than that. What gives?

oh and to add, if there's any "photographer" out there giving away an entire CD of Unedited or Hi-Res images, he/she is helping to screw up this industry

PYPI FASHION wrote:
Quality over quantity. The successful models understand that.

^^^^^^ That.

Virginia Savelle wrote:
It's the trend I've been seeing, too.  One wanted me to go and buy a Victorian wedding dress, a very specific false eyelash, spend FIVE hours in the shoot (including her prep time for the theme), and then only give me five photos on CD - nothing else.

why do you need more than 5? I really would like to know why a model thinks she needs a CD of the photos from a photo shoot? why in the world can't you all sit down post shoot and decide what you want and leave it as that, rather than create all this controversy about what you think you're "entitled" to?
Too bad film is going the way of the dinosaur, because in the days of chromes, there wasn't even a choice about getting "all the photos" A photographer wasn't parting with slides period

Virginia Savelle wrote:
It's the trend I've been seeing, too.  One wanted me to go and buy a Victorian wedding dress, a very specific false eyelash, spend FIVE hours in the shoot (including her prep time for the theme), and then only give me five photos on CD - nothing else.

Wouldn't it be cheaper just buy a camera and do self portrait?

DJH Photo wrote:
I personally think any photographer that gives out a CD of all the images is just asking for heartache.  I started out that way, but no longer do that.  The problem was that the models repeatedly ignored my request to only use images that have been edited or they went and mangled them with their own photoshopping "skills".  While I do little in photoshop besides touch ups and color corrections, I still view my photography as two parts: taking the image and then processing it to final.  Editing photos is time consuming, so on a TF shoot I will process the best of each look and send those...usually 6-10 images for a 3 hour shoot.

So the long answer to your question is other models ruined for you the system of getting the full CD.

and those desperate photographer who wanted to see T&A at any price,spoiled them by giving them 200+ images of caca, so now it's a case of entitlement

pullins photography wrote:
I really would like to know why a model thinks she needs a CD of the photos from a photo shoot? why in the world can't you all sit down post shoot and decide what you want and leave it as that

I think PRE shoot would be a better option. Make an agreement before hand on what you'd like out of the shoot and there should be no disappointments.

PYPI FASHION wrote:
Here's a tip for models. You will see responses from photographers here. Some will say they give a cd of all images. Some will say they will only give a few selected images. Go look at the ports of those two groups and ask yourself who you would rather shoot with.

Sorry Pat, my crappy photos might throw off your point
Models, in general Pat is right.  Please ignore my portfolio.

PYPI FASHION wrote:
Quality over quantity. The successful models understand that.

While I want more in general than you like to give, I totally agree with your statement.  Here's my problem I hope you can shed some light on though ...  Let's say you agree to give me FIVE WHOLE high res images and nothing else.  You're reasoning is quality control, right?  What if there are TWENTY images in the group that represent us both well?  Are you going to begrudge me the chance of having those images based on a now pointless principal???  You will you have them, so why shouldn't I???  Don't want to do post-production?  Who cares - I happen to be very good at it and have several photographers who love what I do with their work.

It sounds to me like it's more of an ego and control issue.  I have turned bland photos into beautiful pieces with my PS skills, and I would not have had that chance if I had to only rely on photographers with attitudes like yours.

Where is the logic?

pullins photography wrote:

why do you need more than 5? I really would like to know why a model thinks she needs a CD of the photos from a photo shoot? why in the world can't you all sit down post shoot and decide what you want and leave it as that, rather than create all this controversy about what you think you're "entitled" to?
Too bad film is going the way of the dinosaur, because in the days of chromes, there wasn't even a choice about getting "all the photos" A photographer wasn't parting with slides period

Because sometimes you don't even get that -- a sit-down and, as a team, decide which are best.  Usually it's either entirely up to the model or the photographer (either way seems to butt the other one out of the creative process, might I add).

Phil Edelstein wrote:
Why do you all want hundreds of images in the same outfit. You're only gonna post one lol
Not sure what a cd with 500 or so unedited images is going to do for a model. I used to go thru them WITH the model, she picked a few that she liked and I edited them. She'd also get the ones I liked edited by email in a few days, never had 1 complaint.

I'll bet! You have some hot shots my friend.

Lost In Euphoria wrote:

I think PRE shoot would be a better option. Make an agreement before hand on what you'd like out of the shoot and there should be no disappointments.

how can it be a better option when you don't know what you have until after the shoot.
However, from what I can gather from the "models" is that somehow what a photographer brings to the creativity is negligible...so what you model for 5 hours. Do you think the photographer has somehow magically transported to la-la land while you model? And what about the cost of the equipmentsuch as cameras, computers and programs and skill to use all.? And after all those thousands of dollars and time spent learning the craft, you want a photographer to say, "here have it all " uh huh

MeganElizabeth wrote:
I never said I wanted ALL. I said if I bother to shoot in 10 outfits and you give me only a choice of four, well beauty is in the eye of the beholder as they say, and honestly half the time, the ones you need are different than the ones I need, different than the ones the stylist needs, different than the ones the makeup artist needs.

As for picking out the favorites, that was one of the parts I use to love as well--so that you didn't waste time, as I realize your editing time is precious too...but if I get NO pictures from a shoot I wasted all of this time on, how is that fair? not to even a choice in looking at them and picking MY favorites.

Unless there was a royal fuck up, you should get at least one image per look. Otherwise, what's the point of creating that look. Communicate this in advance.

Abby Hawkins wrote:

Because sometimes you don't even get that -- a sit-down and, as a team, decide which are best.  Usually it's either entirely up to the model or the photographer (either way seems to butt the other one out of the creative process, might I add).

if you don't get that, that's a different story. Somehow models forget that in the real world, they don't have editorial control over the final product. Get used to it now, unless you want to pay high end photographers and MUAs to do your stuff..then you're really in for a treat!

PYPI FASHION wrote:

Unless there was a royal fuck up, you should get at least one image per look. Otherwise, what's the point of creating that look. Communicate this in advance.

Lost In Euphoria wrote:

I'll bet! You have some hot shots my friend.

Aww shucks! Thank you kindly

PYPI FASHION wrote:

Unless there was a royal fuck up, you should get at least one image per look. Otherwise, what's the point of creating that look. Communicate this in advance.

Amen....it's called being selective. Digital has screwed up everything from photography to music....too easy to get, not appreciated for the work gone into creating it

MeganElizabeth wrote:
I never said I wanted ALL. I said if I bother to shoot in 10 outfits and you give me only a choice of four, well beauty is in the eye of the beholder as they say, and honestly half the time, the ones you need are different than the ones I need, different than the ones the stylist needs, different than the ones the makeup artist needs.

As for picking out the favorites, that was one of the parts I use to love as well--so that you didn't waste time, as I realize your editing time is precious too...but if I get NO pictures from a shoot I wasted all of this time on, how is that fair? not to even a choice in looking at them and picking MY favorites.

1. Always agree on the terms before the shoot. I state in my profile what I offer.

2. The better you get the less you give in trade. When I started I gave all of the images, now the model gets what I keep. I taylor each shoot to the models wants/needs and mine so what I want will be just as good for her/him.

3. You only want/need one per outfit. If you shoot 10 outfits you should receive at least 10 images providing they came out well and the outfit "worked"

4. I print to keep control of full res images. It is cheap and models love it.

MeganElizabeth wrote:
Honestly, I have communicated this. I'm finding photographers are saying one thing(to get me to shoot with them) and then only ending up getting a few images later when I have no control after the shoot is done.
The part you have to realize, its burning all of us good models out as well. Soon you guys might not have reasonable talent to pick through. I only do the tests because I LOVE being creative. but in return I expect to get my work back.

Are you checking references? Did the models in their portfolio get what they where promised?

Virginia Savelle wrote:

While I want more in general than you like to give, I totally agree with your statement.  Here's my problem I hope you can shed some light on though ...  Let's say you agree to give me FIVE WHOLE high res images and nothing else.  You're reasoning is quality control, right?  What if there are TWENTY images in the group that represent us both well?  Are you going to begrudge me the chance of having those images based on a now pointless principal???  You will you have them, so why shouldn't I???  Don't want to do post-production?  Who cares - I happen to be very good at it and have several photographers who love what I do with their work.

It sounds to me like it's more of an ego and control issue.  I have turned bland photos into beautiful pieces with my PS skills, and I would not have had that chance if I had to only rely on photographers with attitudes like yours.

Where is the logic?

This is the way I do it.

I pick the ones I like and create a proof gallery with a large watermark over it.
I choose 2-3 images per look and create final images for the models.
The models can ask for additional images if they see something they love but I missed. I have sole discretion on how many of these I'll give.
MUA can have unretouched images.
Any images picked by other models, designers, or MUA are also available to other team members. If I have to edit the image, the work is already done. No reason why I can't send them to other team members.
Web images contain a watermark. Print images do not.

pullins photography wrote:

why do you need more than 5? I really would like to know why a model thinks she needs a CD of the photos from a photo shoot? why in the world can't you all sit down post shoot and decide what you want and leave it as that, rather than create all this controversy about what you think you're "entitled" to?
Too bad film is going the way of the dinosaur, because in the days of chromes, there wasn't even a choice about getting "all the photos" A photographer wasn't parting with slides period

Why are you so sure I can't use more than five?
Why should quality images go to waste?
As the photographer, do you delete everything except those five images? 

My images go to many sources, and some images fit better into different groupings.  Why is this simple design concept so hard to understand?

pullins photography wrote:
how can it be a better option when you don't know what you have until after the shoot.
However, from what I can gather from the "models" is that somehow what a photographer brings to the creativity is negligible...so what you model for 5 hours. Do you think the photographer has somehow magically transported to la-la land while you model? And what about the cost of the equipmentsuch as cameras, computers and programs and skill to use all.? And after all those thousands of dollars and time spent learning the craft, you want a photographer to say, "here have it all " uh huh

How about we don't turn this into a "who works harder, a model or a photographer" debate.
I think it would be more productive to make arrangements BEFORE the shoot, that way there are no suprises. Imagine doing a shoot with a model and then at the end of the day she says "oh, by the way, I want all 562 images with retouching done, and if you do not complete this task for me I'm going to give you bad referrals as well as passive-agressively bash you on the MM forums". If you agree to only give her 5 images out of the shoot and you end up getting 40 that you'd like her to have, BONUS. If you don't get any images that you  like, yet you promised her 5, either offer to shoot her for some extra time or suck it up. If you can't get 5 non-embarassing images out of a 3 hour shoot, you should give up your craft.

Virginia Savelle wrote:
Don't want to do post-production?  Who cares - I happen to be very good at it and have several photographers who love what I do with their work.

No no no no sweet baby jesus no. 

That's exactly why I don't give out unedited images.  If you are going to be post processing you might as well just take the photo too.  Every image ultimately reflects back on the photography...so yes, I do prefer to have total control.

PYPI FASHION wrote:

This is the way I do it.

I pick the ones I like and create a proof gallery with a large watermark over it.
I choose 2-3 images per look and create final images for the models.
The models can ask for additional images if they see something they love but I missed. I have sole discretion on how many of these I'll give.
MUA can have unretouched images.
Any images picked by other models, designers, or MUA are also available to other team members. If I have to edit the image, the work is already done. No reason why I can't send them to other team members.
Web images contain a watermark. Print images do not.

You failed to answer my question.

Just like I said ... control and ego.

Virginia Savelle wrote:

Why are you so sure I can't use more than five?
Why should quality images go to waste?
As the photographer, do you delete everything except those five images? 

My images go to many sources, and some images fit better into different groupings.  Why is this simple design concept so hard to understand?

I have no problems giving models more than what was agreed to. They are more than welcome to buy them from me.

DJH Photo wrote:

No no no no sweet baby jesus no. 

That's exactly why I don't give out unedited images.  If you are going to be post processing you might as well just take the photo too.  Every image ultimately reflects back on the photography...so yes, I do prefer to have total control.

I agree with DJH, if you let the model edit the photos, then its not your work anymore.

Virginia Savelle wrote:

You failed to answer my question.

Just like I said ... control and ego.

I answered just fine. You just didn't want to hear the answer.

Virginia Savelle wrote:

You failed to answer my question.

Just like I said ... control and ego.

More like pride and marketing...