Frank McAdam wrote:
I've been hassled and threatened by transit cops the same way taking pics on the subway even though the law clearly states I'm allowed.

What law?
Quote the particular law that says so.
Sho that particular article of law that says you're allowed to take pictures anywhere you want?

Howard Garcia wrote:

What law?
Quote the particular law that says so.
Sho that particular article of law that says you're allowed to take pictures anywhere you want?

There isn't a law that says you shouldn't:

http://www.nppa.org/news_and_events/new … ubway.html

Marc Turnley wrote:

There isn't a law that says you shouldn't:

http://www.nppa.org/news_and_events/new … ubway.html

I don't care about articles, I want to see the law that says you can shoot anywhere you want.

Frank McAdam wrote:
I've been hassled and threatened by transit cops the same way taking pics on the subway even though the law clearly states I'm allowed.

Howard Garcia wrote:
What law? Quote the particular law that says so. Sho that particular article of law that says you're allowed to take pictures anywhere you want?

I understand your point that there is no law specificly allowing subway photography.  However, the following law is the starting point.  Laws need to specifically disallow photography, and some do, usually with reference to national security, or they grant rule making power to the President or agencies in the executive branch.  (Note to detail oriented people: the quoted law below is about publication of images, not the actual taking thereof.)

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

I too salute Duane Kerzic for standing up to defend photographers' rights.

Howard Garcia wrote:
I want to see the law that says you can shoot anywhere you want.

First you have to show us the law that says you're allowed to post on Model Mayhem.

Howard Garcia wrote:

I don't care about articles, I want to see the law that says you can shoot anywhere you want.

Generally laws don't tell you what to do, just what you can't.

Here for your perusal are the guidelines from Mayor's Office of Film:  http://www.nyc.gov/html/film/html/permi … ty01.shtml

glenn my name today wrote:
Howard you and i rarely disagree, and I know you know quite a bit more than the average joe about laws, but the Constitution and its interpretations by multiple state and federal courts is pretty clear on this.

the mere absence of a statue or law specifically allowing something is not evidence that it is prohibited or unlawful.

There clearly are places where photography is NOT allowed, such as the entrances to bridges and tunnels.

there is no law that allows you to go to relieve yourself. so i cant show you a law that allows it.

but its very legal.

there are all kinds of laws and statutes about where and when you can't relieve yourself, but you can't find a law that does allow you to do so.

Glen it's not a mater of agreeing or disagreeing.
Someone stated " the law clearly allows me to".
Fine, prove it.
If it's so clear, I want to see where it is so specified.
Now, by the same token, all those wanna be cops (a.k.a. mall security guards) that come and quote that it is illegal to shoot trains, or shoot in a public beach and so on, I would get in their face and demand that they show me the article of law where it says it is illegal of just STFU. The problem with that is the same problem with all law enforcement matters.  At that moment, you will lose.  On the field, the "cop" is always right.  The burden of proof that he/she/they are wrong is on you.
Is it worth going through all that trouble, aggravation and expense for one photo?

In NYC there is one simple way to avoid all that....get a permit from the CITY or the Port Authority to do a shoot on that particular area.

Caradoc wrote:

First you have to show us the law that says you're allowed to post on Model Mayhem.

Come get me!

cameraman K wrote:
12/27/amtrak- police-arrest- photographer- participating- in-amtrak- photo-contest/ >
[Excerpt]

Armed with his Canon 5D and his new Lensbaby lens, photographer Duane Kerzic was out to win Amtrak's annual photo contest this week, hoping to win $1,000 in travel vouchers and have his photo published in Amtrak's annual calendar.

He ended up getting arrested by Amtrak police; handcuffed to wall in a holding cell inside New York City’s Penn Station, accused of criminal trespass.

Kerciz says he was hardly trespassing because he was taking photos from the train platform; the same one used by thousands of commuters everyday to step on and off the train.

"The only reason they arrested me was because I refused to delete my images," Kerzic said in a phone interview with Photography is Not a Crime on Friday.

"They never asked me to leave, they never mentioned anything about trespassing until after I was handcuffed in the holding cell."

In fact, he said, the only thing they told him before handcuffing him was that "it was illegal to take photos of the trains."

Obviously, there is a lack of communication between Amtrak's marketing department, which promotes the annual contest, called Picture Our Trains, and its police department, which has a history of harassing photographers for photographing these same trains.

Now he has sent out letters complaining of the incident to everybody from New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg to New York Senator Hillary Clinton to everybody in between and above, including Amtrak officials, New Jersey Transit officials and even President Bush himself, in case he feels the urge to do some work before he leaves office next month.

He has also contacted a New York City lawyer who specializes in First Amendment cases and the National Press Photographers Association has also been in contact with him.

And he has been documenting his case on his website,

including photos of his injured wrist and the various
train platforms as well as the letters he has sent out.

Now he plans to return to Penn Station and photograph the cops who arrested him as well as continue taking photos for the Amtrak contest.

“If I win that contest, I would travel all over the country taking photos,” he said.

And if he wins the lawsuit, he may end up traveling all over the world.

We have become paranoid in the United States.

Wet Ltd wrote:


When I saw the contest I guess I didn't think someone would shoot in a place like Penn Station...I was thinking (and they probably were also) of a great glacier national park shot of the train blasting through the snow.

But, in all honesty, what's the difference? He'd be shooting trains.

Rob Domaschuk wrote:
But, in all honesty, what's the difference? He'd be shooting trains.

True, but in large part with passenger trains the greater concern is terrorist action to the facility to inflect the maximum possible damage/harm.  And based on worldwide attacks that's what DHS and TSA are acting on.

edit:  The suggestion above to go to the NYC permit office would be an excellent way to not get in trouble as folks will know your coming and what exactly your stated intent is.....and it's cheaper than having to post bail or pay a fine.

Howard Garcia wrote:
Is it worth going through all that trouble, aggravation and expense for one photo?

Fuck yes! and if you don't understand why then you are not a photographer. Stick to doing the GWC thing shooting topless chicks in your studio.

rootofsilence wrote:
Fuck yes! and if you don't understand why then you are not a photographer. Stick to doing the GWC thing shooting topless chicks in your studio.

Why thank you.
I'm so GWC.
I'm honored!

Farenell Photography wrote:
Another reason why I kinda don't have a high opinion of law enforcement (I have plenty of my own outside the realm of photography).

Though I understand they have a tough job to do, there are to many ignornant Barney Fifes that have no idea what they are & are not allowed to do, which is saying nothing about those that abuse their power granted to them.

Barney Fife was usually correct, albeit too earnest.

Howard Garcia wrote:
Is it worth going through all that trouble, aggravation and expense for one photo?

rootofsilence wrote:
Fuck yes! and if you don't understand why then you are not a photographer. Stick to doing the GWC thing shooting topless chicks in your studio.

Howard Garcia wrote:
Why thank you.
I'm so GWC.
I'm honored!

Hey don't go feeling all honoured and stuff - I never said you were a GWC.

You know perfectly well what I mean though, for the right photo it's always going to be worth the trouble and aggravation.

stan wigmore photograph wrote:
The op may have worse problems ahead yet.If he publishes any of the shots he took of trains going into tunnels and forgets to comply with 2257 he may get a visit from the FBI, afterall we all know what a train going into a tunnel stands for.

OOOOhh Jesus your right!!

He'll never get anyone to take his case at this rate!

cameraman K wrote:
12/27/amtrak- police-arrest- photographer- participating- in-amtrak- photo-contest/ >
[Excerpt]

Armed with his Canon 5D and his new Lensbaby lens, photographer Duane Kerzic was out to win Amtrak's annual photo contest this week, hoping to win $1,000 in travel vouchers and have his photo published in Amtrak's annual calendar.

He ended up getting arrested by Amtrak police; handcuffed to wall in a holding cell inside New York City’s Penn Station, accused of criminal trespass.

Kerciz says he was hardly trespassing because he was taking photos from the train platform; the same one used by thousands of commuters everyday to step on and off the train.

"The only reason they arrested me was because I refused to delete my images," Kerzic said in a phone interview with Photography is Not a Crime on Friday.

"They never asked me to leave, they never mentioned anything about trespassing until after I was handcuffed in the holding cell."

In fact, he said, the only thing they told him before handcuffing him was that "it was illegal to take photos of the trains."

Obviously, there is a lack of communication between Amtrak's marketing department, which promotes the annual contest, called Picture Our Trains, and its police department, which has a history of harassing photographers for photographing these same trains.

Now he has sent out letters complaining of the incident to everybody from New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg to New York Senator Hillary Clinton to everybody in between and above, including Amtrak officials, New Jersey Transit officials and even President Bush himself, in case he feels the urge to do some work before he leaves office next month.

He has also contacted a New York City lawyer who specializes in First Amendment cases and the National Press Photographers Association has also been in contact with him.

And he has been documenting his case on his website,

including photos of his injured wrist and the various
train platforms as well as the letters he has sent out.

Now he plans to return to Penn Station and photograph the cops who arrested him as well as continue taking photos for the Amtrak contest.

“If I win that contest, I would travel all over the country taking photos,” he said.

And if he wins the lawsuit, he may end up traveling all over the world.

That's weird..I take HD video all the time from the stations and trains and platforms and never had a problem.