Skydancer wrote:

i'm mainly pointing out that outing MM members is not allowed in the forums

Generally outing is revealing something personal or private. In this case, she went on the record and wants this to get out because she feels as if her civil rights were violated.

Megan G wrote:
lol I don't believe any of it.

Why would you say that?  These sorts of incidents are all too common, both of police abusing their powers and of those same police assaulting members of the public who attempt to film it.

Segovia Photography wrote:
Cops should be inviting people to video tape them if they have nothing to hide, it would prove that they did everything by the book, unless they are committing a crime themselves.

I loved the part that the cop said you can't video people without informing them.  What about all those cameras on the cop cars?

Skydancer wrote:
If the model wanted to tell her story on Model Mayhem, she could have posted it herself. If you want to write an op/ed story about someone on your own blog, then that's where it belongs. Again, this thread should be locked for outing another MM member in the forums and for stirring up drama.

This isn't outting.  It's a discussion of public record that happens to involve an MM member.  We SHOULD be allowed to discuss these types of stories.

Dave the design student wrote:

Legally they can't do anything anyway.

And so the Black Panthers were born.

I'm no so sure. Check (Un)Patriot(ic) Act.

Christopher Hartman wrote:

I loved the part that the cop said you can't video people without informing them.  What about all those cameras on the cop cars?

Cops are above the law, did you miss the memo?

Skydancer wrote:

He wrote a personal blog about her, and then linked to his blog here in the MM forums. That's not exactly what I consider "a matter of public record." If the model wants to get her own story out, as the OP suggests, then I suggest he ask her to come in here and say she is OK with OP's post, and with people talking about her.

The NY Times noted it and it's in his local media.

Skydancer wrote:
He wrote a personal blog about her, and then linked to it here in the MM forums. That's not exactly what I consider "a matter of public record." If she wants to get her own story out, then I suggest OP asks her to come in here and say she is OK with people talking about her.

This is what I'm talking about when I say you guys have no clue about the laws.

Her arrest is a matter of public record. Her mugshot made the Sun Sentinel. Record of her arrest can be found by searching the Palm Beach County clerk of court website.

The fact that I interviewed her and published an article on my blog makes it even more of a public record.

It might be my "personal" blog but in the eyes of the law, it is no different than any media site, including CNN and NY Times.

I am free to publish what I want as long as I don't libel anybody,  violate certain copyright laws or plagiarize. The same laws applies to the media.

The fact that she contacted me because this is my niche is her way of "getting her own story out".

My job is to ensure that the story gets to the readers. I normally don't post these stories here but I figured this was a special case that would probably gain her support.

But obviously that is not the case.

Carlos Miller wrote:

But obviously that is not the case.

She has mine.

Carlos Miller wrote:
This is what I'm talking about when I say you guys have no clue about the laws.

I didn't read the article but I have a few questions for you, that are mostly just in general.

I thought I heard that you can video tape police but you can't record sound?

Is there a line between being an ass and videotaping/pictures of the police and/or being polite but firm?

what is the best way to go about taking pictures in public, affirming our rights, but not being over the top about it?

Duane P Kerzic wrote:
Carlos does really good work as a blogger. He's one of the few that actually interviews people for his stories and fact checks what he's writing. This is very important and is one of the things that "mainstream" press says they are better at and how they hold that they are superior to bloggers. Some bloggers don't check anything but Carlos does.

Carlos is also correct about photographers. There is a world of difference between someone that stays in a studio and someone that works the streets. I'm not saying that one or other has more skills with a camera or can make more interesting photographs. I guess to call someone a so called photographers is a stretch. But they do have different experiences with the 'rules' and what is and isn't able to be photographed. Just look at some of the things that were said here.

The facts are you can photograph anything when you are in a public place that can be seen from the public place. That's basically how easy it is. Military bases aren't public places btw, the commanding officer is allowed to issue rules regarding what can and cannot be photographed on the base. There are other things that the government owns that aren't public. The tip off is generally a sign that says no trespassing and a fence. As long as you are standing on public property you can photograph anything you can see behind that fence. Stores and other places of business while places of public accommodation are not public property. The owners or their representative get to make the rules on if photography is allowed. Many allow some but not all photography. They can ask you to stop taking photos and to leave but they can't make you delete the photos you have taken.

Where you can have problems with things you photograph in public is how you use the photography. It's all about use. If you are taking a photo of a person in public that's news worthy and it's published in a news story it's fine. But if you are going to use the same photo to sell something the use of that persons likeness can be challenged in civil court. You could possibly be liable to pay the person some damages if you don't have a release signed. If you are taking the photos for your own use there aren't any restrictions. The same is true for art photos.

All courts have found you don't have any claim to privacy when you are in a public place with very few exceptions. These exceptions are for things like up skirting and public rest rooms for the most part. Cops are no different when they are working and in public you can take their photo. You can't interfere with them conducting their business however. If you are behind the crime scene tape and taking photos and they don't like it tough, you aren't interfering. Contrary to what most think you can take a photo of an undercover cop in public. You can't take a photo of undercover cops in court where they are identified as undercover cops unless the cop says it's ok. You don't want to have your photo taken in public, stay home.

Cops don't want people taking photos of them lots of times because they do lots of things wrong and they don't want any proof of them doing things wrong. When they lie on the report and the photo shows something else they are in trouble so it's best to not have any photos that can refute what you wrote in the report.

As far as Carlos outing anyone I just don't see it. My personal experiences with Carlos have shown him to be very respectful and honest.

I think that's the problem with cops. They tend to lie about things all the time. They escalate their harassment of the public when they don't get their way. You are doing something perfectly legal and they push till they make some kind of crime out of it for whatever reason. Then they wonder why they don't get any respect, perhaps it's because they aren't respecting others.

My story got the same second guessing here on MM by those that haven't done much of this kind of photography. Trust me we make sure we know the rules before we do something. It's not worth it to get in trouble over. If I need permission to take a photo I get it. If i don't need permission sometimes I'll still ask but most of the time I'll just take the photo without asking.

This is just another example of the cops over-reacting and pushing something until they make some kind of situation where they can arrest someone.

Thanks for your input!

Skydancer wrote:
Again... if indeed the model has requested that the OP post about her, on her behalf, in the MM forums, all he has to do is ask her come in here and state that she's OK with being discussed in the MM forums. That's all.

As it is, that fact that people are discussing the model's personal life, her age, her son, her validity, etc. is just unnecessary forum drama.

Then get out of the forum! Seriously you are the only one complaining about this, just let it go and leave!

On another note, I would get a lawyer if I were her

Andrew Thomas Designs wrote:

I didn't read the article but I have a few questions for you, that are mostly just in general.

I thought I heard that you can video tape police but you can't record sound?

Is there a line between being an ass and videotaping/pictures of the police and/or being polite but firm?

what is the best way to go about taking pictures in public, affirming our rights, but not being over the top about it?

Many states have what they call "illegal wiretapping" laws which forbids people from recording a conversation that is meant to be private.

This usually applies to phone conversations.

In the past, police have tried to use these laws to crack down on people filming them because the video cameras record sound.

However, these cases end up getting thrown out when they go before a judge.

I addressed this issue in an article last year where I highlighted three separate cases.

http://carlosmiller.com/2008/02/06/if-p … ideotaped/

All of them ended up getting dropped. And this one also got dropped so it's safe to assume we are allowed to film cops in public because they have no expectation of privacy.

Shon D.- Femme wrote:
The NY Times noted it and it's in his local media.

The NY Times has noted his blog in the past, as have a lot of websites. I haven't seen where the NY Times noted this particular story.
Look, I understand OP has an editorial and personal agenda with his blog about photographers' rights to photograph the police, and has been quite successful in garnering national attention to it. All I am saying is, the OP claims that the model wanted him to post his blog about her and a link to her MM profile here in the MM forums... and now, because of this thread, people are discussing the model's personal life, questioning her age, commenting about her son, etc. If the model is OK with all this happening in the MM forums, why doesn't the OP ask her to come in here and let us know that she gave him permission to post about her... as he claims she did.

Edit: And now the model has given explicit permission to discuss her.

Carlos Miller wrote:
All of them ended up getting dropped. And this one also got dropped so it's safe to assume we are allowed to film cops in public because they have no expectation of privacy.

Ok,

and again this is just in general.

So I go out tonight and video tape the police downtown, and lets say I have a choice between making a stand and being arrested or backing down, also I have a day job that I can't miss.

If I did get taken away and put in jail, how hard is it to fight that, how hard is it to find someone to represent me, and what would the chances be of me missing work, and would it be worth it?

Well mostly though, how easy would it be to find a lawyer who could help me and who wouldn't cost an arm and a leg.

SLE Photography wrote:

Why would you say that?  These sorts of incidents are all too common, both of police abusing their powers and of those same police assaulting members of the public who attempt to film it.

Well I believe SOME of it.  I was actually going to edit that post.  I believe that the cops may have been dicks, but I don't believe the email part of it and I don't believe that they used that sort of language with her, but then again, for the most part, I've never had anything but good experiences with cops so its a little hard for me to believe.  I have had one negative experience, but even that wasnt as bad as this.  But I do believe that maybe parts of it are true.

The email is just insanely hard for me to believe though.  How would they get her email first off, secondly, why would a cop send an email like that knowing she would report it?  Its just a tad bit fishy.  I believe that maybe the story is true, but maybe overly dramatized.

Carlos Miller wrote:
The pompousness of photographers on this site never fails to amaze me. It reminds me of why I stopped posting here in the first place.

I am the guy who wrote the story. I am also a professional journalist who once worked for the “mainstream” media and who still does occasional work for them, including a recent photo assignment for The New York Post.

I know many of you have this naïve notion that if it was not covered by the mainstream media, then it just simply didn’t happen.

Well the South Florida Sun Sentinel is actually looking into this incident as we speak. So are various lawyers. So stay tuned because sometimes it’s people like me who spark the fire.

The comments on this thread do not surprise me because there was another article I wrote that was discussed on MM not too long ago – which also brought out a ton of disparaging comments from so-called photographers – that never made the mainstream media either.

https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … ost8503629

But it did end up airing on The Colbert Report and the photographer did end up receiving a five-figure settlement.

http://carlosmiller.com/2009/02/03/the- … ime-story/

http://carlosmiller.com/2009/02/19/amtr … ent-aired/

All this because it was first reported on a “’0’ ranked blogsite”. Actually it is ranked in the top 200,00 in the world on Alexa, which is more than any of you can do if you were single-handedly running a site with absolutely no help.

But it still hasn’t been reported by the mainstream media, so I guess it really didn’t happen.

Tell me, do you generalize in your blogs with the same bold strokes you generalize about photographers on here?

Carlos Miller wrote:
The pompousness of photographers on this site never fails to amaze me. It reminds me of why I stopped posting here in the first place.

I am the guy who wrote the story. I am also a professional journalist who once worked for the “mainstream” media and who still does occasional work for them, including a recent photo assignment for The New York Post.

and the truth comes out, you're just self-promoting and generalizing/insulting anyone who disagrees with you

what a bunch of bullshit

Christopher Hartman wrote:

This isn't outting.  It's a discussion of public record that happens to involve an MM member.  We SHOULD be allowed to discuss these types of stories.

Agreed.  The arrest was public information and posted on a public website by the police department.  At that point, it's open for discussion just as any other news article would be.

Megan G wrote:

Well I believe SOME of it.  I was actually going to edit that post.  I believe that the cops may have been dicks, but I don't believe the email part of it and I don't believe that they used that sort of language with her, but then again, for the most part, I've never had anything but good experiences with cops so its a little hard for me to believe.  I have had one negative experience, but even that wasnt as bad as this.  But I do believe that maybe parts of it are true.

The email is just insanely hard for me to believe though.  How would they get her email first off, secondly, why would a cop send an email like that knowing she would report it?  Its just a tad bit fishy.  I believe that maybe the story is true, but maybe overly dramatized.

So you are saying because nothing like this has ever happened to you it doesn't happen?

Not all cops are good cops. Not all cops are bad cops. Some police officers are on serious power trips. How could a police officer get her email address? Really?  Not tough considering she has her own web site and it would be pretty easy to contact her.

As far as the language part it is not hard for me to believe at all.

But I am fairly certain that it will be pretty easy to figure out where the email came from.

Chris Keeling wrote:
I believe almost half of that story.  Probably not very close to half, but definitely over a quarter of it.

Wow, she was spitting out kids at 12 years old, I gotta admit......that was impressive.

Dude!
With all due respect (or whatever might be left) you have absolutely no right to judge her like that. Open your eyes to reality and find out not everyone has a life like yours however good or bad it may be.

Tasha Ford wrote:
Thank you everyone for your opinion/support and non-supportive views.  I personally did not post this blog, so no, it's not an attention stunt.  I moved to Florida recently from the Washington Metro area.  Normally, I don't respond to threads or forums that are made about me, however, I do want you all to know that this is something that has caused great amount of emotional stress to my family.  I love my son dearly, which is why I felt it necessary to address this issue.  My son is A/B student and is actively involved in school community service groups.  He just rec'd an award from another Police Department that came from a recommendation from one of his high school teachers. 

My son is a stand up child and has never been involved in hurting another child or anyone for that matter.  When I tell you I'm blessed to have a son like him, I mean that from the bottom of my heart.  I often thank God every night for blessing with a child like him, because I know it could have turned out quite differently.

What you don't know is that this officer has been harassing my child for some time now.  The kids hang out at the movie theater for recreation.  This cops is assigned to this theater regularly. 

What you don't know is that the cops down here regularly harass children.  Goggle from schoolhouse to jailhouse and this will give you a clear reason why I keep a camera with me that records.  Its your word against the police and if they want to, they can make your life a miserable wreck. 

I've seen a child witness police officers charge children with robbery by theft, because two children were playing on school grounds and one grab something from the other, just playing.  If you don't think that this is taking things way to far, then I don't know what else to tell you.  I remember grabbing a paper that rolled up out of ones back pocket and running, just to be funny.  I was never charged with robbery by theft.  I might have gotten a slip to the office for running in th halls from this behavior. 

I just want you know that there was a reason I needed to bring a camera and tape the incident and my son is not a trouble maker.

Hey Tasha....it's La'T we worked together a while back....
You have every right to protect your son and do everything under your power to ensure his safety and well-being. If you don't do it no one will. My heart goes out to you and your family and I pray that God will give you the strength to get through this.

Tasha Ford is a beautiful young lady both inside and out and one of the best models I have had the privilege to have worked with. Stay strong and keep up the great work both as a mom and model.


Peace
La'T


I posted you as my avi as a shout out

Carlos Miller wrote:

I guess it's no different than people on this thread inferring that I am not a real journalist.

I'm a real journalist. Blogs just don't have the gravitas of The Times.

Carlos Miller wrote:
The pompousness of photographers on this site never fails to amaze me. It reminds me of why I stopped posting here in the first place.

I am the guy who wrote the story. I am also a professional journalist who once worked for the “mainstream” media and who still does occasional work for them, including a recent photo assignment for The New York Post.

I know many of you have this naïve notion that if it was not covered by the mainstream media, then it just simply didn’t happen.

Well the South Florida Sun Sentinel is actually looking into this incident as we speak. So are various lawyers. So stay tuned because sometimes it’s people like me who spark the fire.

The comments on this thread do not surprise me because there was another article I wrote that was discussed on MM not too long ago – which also brought out a ton of disparaging comments from so-called photographers – that never made the mainstream media either.

https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … ost8503629

But it did end up airing on The Colbert Report and the photographer did end up receiving a five-figure settlement.

http://carlosmiller.com/2009/02/03/the- … ime-story/

http://carlosmiller.com/2009/02/19/amtr … ent-aired/

All this because it was first reported on a “’0’ ranked blogsite”. Actually it is ranked in the top 200,00 in the world on Alexa, which is more than any of you can do if you were single-handedly running a site with absolutely no help.

But it still hasn’t been reported by the mainstream media, so I guess it really didn’t happen.

I believe even less of the story now.  I think I believe the part about the kid snuck into the theater without paying. 

That's probably true.

tenrocK photo wrote:

Dude!
With all due respect (or whatever might be left) you have absolutely no right to judge her like that. Open your eyes to reality and find out not everyone has a life like yours however good or bad it may be.

you need to open your eyes, being blind and seeing things one-sided will get only so far in life

no one is judging anything besides the model's age and the credibility (or lack thereof) of the story

tenrocK photo wrote:

Dude!
With all due respect (or whatever might be left) you have absolutely no right to judge her like that. Open your eyes to reality and find out not everyone has a life like yours however good or bad it may be.

I'm not judging anyone.  I am basing my opinion on the unevenness of the blog and forming an opinion.  Opinions are allowed here, and not all of them will be the same.

Were you there?  No 
Was I?   No

Therefore all we can do is guess as to who was telling the truth.  Based on the anger in the words of the blog, and my own personal experiences that tell me the police usually don't hang around at public theaters busting people for no reason....I choose to believe that this is a he said she said situation.  I have no doubt the mom believes she's right, but I also don't think she's thinking objectively when her child is involved.

Christine Rose wrote:

So you are saying because nothing like this has ever happened to you it doesn't happen?

Not all cops are good cops. Not all cops are bad cops. Some police officers are on serious power trips. How could a police officer get her email address? Really?  Not tough considering she has her own web site and it would be pretty easy to contact her.

As far as the language part it is not hard for me to believe at all.

But I am fairly certain that it will be pretty easy to figure out where the email came from.

I did concede that PERHAPS it was true BUT because I've never had an experience like that its hard for me to believe (as in think about) cops behaving like that.  I did say that there is a possibility that they did though.  I know not all cops are good and abuse their power.

Tasha Ford wrote:
Thank you everyone for your opinion/support and non-supportive views.  I personally did not post this blog, so no, it's not an attention stunt.  I moved to Florida recently from the Washington Metro area.  Normally, I don't respond to threads or forums that are made about me, however, I do want you all to know that this is something that has caused great amount of emotional stress to my family.  I love my son dearly, which is why I felt it necessary to address this issue.  My son is A/B student and is actively involved in school community service groups.  He just rec'd an award from another Police Department that came from a recommendation from one of his high school teachers. 

My son is a stand up child and has never been involved in hurting another child or anyone for that matter.  When I tell you I'm blessed to have a son like him, I mean that from the bottom of my heart.  I often thank God every night for blessing with a child like him, because I know it could have turned out quite differently.

What you don't know is that this officer has been harassing my child for some time now.  The kids hang out at the movie theater for recreation.  This cops is assigned to this theater regularly. 

What you don't know is that the cops down here regularly harass children.  Goggle from schoolhouse to jailhouse and this will give you a clear reason why I keep a camera with me that records.  Its your word against the police and if they want to, they can make your life a miserable wreck. 

I've seen a child witness police officers charge children with robbery by theft, because two children were playing on school grounds and one grab something from the other, just playing.  If you don't think that this is taking things way to far, then I don't know what else to tell you.  I remember grabbing a paper that rolled up out of ones back pocket and running, just to be funny.  I was never charged with robbery by theft.  I might have gotten a slip to the office for running in th halls from this behavior. 

I just want you know that there was a reason I needed to bring a camera and tape the incident and my son is not a trouble maker.

Yes.  I do remember you.  This was one of my first shoots I took after having my littler girl, who is now 3, by the way.  Thank you.  My son was not passing a ticket ok...that's their story.  Trust me. He's not starving for $9.  What I'm telling you now is nothing.  I lived in Maryland and never seen anything like this.  Have you ever seen a child get arrested for spitting on the ground?  Well, brace yourself folks, this type of stuff happens here in Palm Beach.  Have you ever seen a police officer call a child a MFer and Asshole who wasn't even talking just listening?  They were trying to get my son t react, so that they could arrest him and give him a criminal history.  Thank you, Jesus, that my son is mild manner and avoids drama at all cost.

Tasha Ford wrote:

Yes.  I do remember you.  This was one of my first shoots I took after having my littler girl, who is now 3, by the way.  Thank you.  My son was not passing a ticket ok...that's their story.  Trust me. He's not starving for $9.  What I'm telling you now is nothing.  I lived in Maryland and never seen anything like this.  Have you ever seen a child get arrested for spitting on the ground?  Well, brace yourself folks, this type of stuff happens here in Palm Beach.  Have you ever seen a police officer call a child a MFer and Asshole who wasn't even talking just listening?  They were trying to get my son t react, so that they could arrest him and give him a criminal history.  Thank you, Jesus, that my son is mild manner and avoids drama at all cost.

Yeah I remember you had just had a baby and body was flawless.

Hang in there and keep supporting your son. Kymmy speaks of you often (all good) Sorry this had to be dragged into the forums...always "mayhem" huh.

Take care,  T