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Do most photographers require proof of age?
Yeah this should be in newbie forum. However I shot glam & fashion as a test, with a newer 23 yr old MM model and she refused to let me photocopy her ID for proof of age. Paranoid I'd steal her identity or something. She had her "manager" talk to me, but I said no dice- no signed proof of age & release, no images. So we wasted 2 hrs and she's pissed I won't edit-release any images without a release and signed proof of age. Over 300 models had no issue with me copying their ID so this surprised me. I normally do paperwork after the shoot as models have always seemed to prefer that. A mistake in this case... she has some shooting experience and I assumed paperwork of this sort was a matter of course these days. We discussed only styling and genre Anyway... does not every prudent photog get a photocopy of every models ID these days? I'll refer her to this thread. I do it as a matter of habit for most any shoot unless I'm being paid. Jul 04 10 02:53 pm Link Your policy is clear and has been accepted as standard for many years. There is no logical reason for her not to let you copy her license. NONE. You can't steal her identity with a DL#. Ain't happenin' Manager? If he's "Real" he will not have a problem with this, as it's pretty much standard throughout the industry these days. Edit: if it's for 2257, it's required. Jul 04 10 02:57 pm Link I would never photocopy someone's ID. Only a model release is necessary. If you want to /see/ proof of age, then maybe ask to /see/ their driver's licence or something along those lines, but as soon as you know they're of legal age to sign the paper, there should be no reason for you to document their age: just have the model release form signed. And I don't think it's fair to the model that you wouldn't tell them in advance that you want something. If you are really paranoid and want someone's ID they should be told before you even take their picture. Same with if you want a model release form: you have to tell them in advance, otherwise it's not fair to them. Edit: I may be mistaken about the ID thing, but I've never seen before on any forum as a necessity for licencing images. Jul 04 10 02:57 pm Link Honestly, I very rarely get asked for my ID, which I find odd given that I do look fairly young (apparently, some people disagree and say I look 30, so who knows) and that I do a lot of nude work. I'm always just peachy letting them take a photo of my ID. I even carry a second photo ID in case that's needed as well if asked to. Jul 04 10 02:58 pm Link David Gaze wrote: Some DL's have your social security number on them. Depends on the state. Plus your home address. Jul 04 10 02:59 pm Link "...but officer she told me she was 18!" do paperwork BEFORE the shoot. some shoots require more paperwork than others. if you are producing the content, then its up to you to do the proper paperwork. Jul 04 10 03:01 pm Link i make a copy of the id and also photograph the model holding it. then i have the release signed only after those things are done do i begin any shoot. Jul 04 10 03:03 pm Link if nudes (even implied) are involved i photocopy the driver's license and/or take a picture of the model holding it. so far no one has complained about that. my model release also says "i verify that i am 18 or older". don't know if any of these things would hold up in court but i feel better having them. we shot one 27 year old model and showed the pics to someone who said it was child porn. she looks young. so even if they are older i think it's still good to have that proof of age. Jul 04 10 03:04 pm Link been a couple of years since i asked for an iD... Jul 04 10 03:05 pm Link Elizabeth Claret wrote: I realize some states the DL# is actually the SSAN... WTF? But it's a lot like giving your server at a restaurant your credit card... There's a ceratin amount of trust there, that what you give the people serving you is entrusted. Jul 04 10 03:07 pm Link On a TF, I always try to have the model release signed and ID Pic taken before the shoot. Sometimes I admit I forget until after, but the reason for before is just to avoid what happened to you. I don't want to have a 3-4 hour shoot go to waste because I can't use the images. Jul 04 10 03:07 pm Link Well, depending on what you're shooting it's either a good idea or a legal requirement. I don't believe most of what I shoot falls under 2257, but on the off chance some overzealous prosecutor asserts that it does, I will have the required documents, which includes a copy of the model's ID. If you're shooting work that has no remote chance at all of ever being asserted as 2257 material, it's still a good idea to have proof of age for anyone who signs a contract with you. That is why the first shot I take of every model I photograph is a shot of them holding their government issued picture ID next to their face, and I make sure it's readable in the photo before we move on. If a model won't agree to that, we don't shoot. The only thing I would say the OP should have done differently is take care of that matter up front instead of after he wasted two hours of his time. Jul 04 10 03:08 pm Link Henri3 wrote: oh well...like you said, you wasted time and energy. Wonder what she's going to do when paid shoots are going to require a ss card next year, so the government knows what a model is getting paid...she'll be in a pickle then Jul 04 10 03:09 pm Link David Gaze wrote: Yeah, I'm just saying, some people are paranoid everyone is out to get them. I've never had an issue letting someone photocopy my ID. Jul 04 10 03:09 pm Link Henri, I think your practice is a safe and good one, but I don't feel it is so common that a model should be expected to come into a shoot and consider that to be a standard practice. My feeling is that if you feel fairly confident the model is of age, since you did not tell her about this ahead of time, you should stick to all the other terms as if that was not a shoot condition and be sure to include this in your shoot terms for future shoots. If it was a nude shoot with someone you suspect may be under age, well you should never have taken photo 1 until you verified that. Since it was a test shoot, you are certainly in you right to not take it any further, but I do think since you did not tell her you wanted to copy her ID, you should provide her with the images. Jul 04 10 03:13 pm Link Yes, and take care of the paperwork before a shoot. Otherwise, no shoot. It's unlikely her manager is real. Jul 04 10 03:17 pm Link I always take a shot of the model holding her drivers license next to her face. I will only make an exception if the model is over 60 years of age and brings both of her parents with her to the shoot and they both sign a notarized statement that their child over the age of 18..... Jul 04 10 03:19 pm Link Well nudes aren't at issue here. However sexy glam like we shot, isn't underage appropriate, so I want a proof of age on file. It's simply prudent these days... I do a 2257 for EVERY shoot these days except beauty or fashion shoots. I'm more cautious than some, since I shoot quite a lot of nudework, and don't wanna get lax about these things. Proof of age is useless unless it's recorded and on file as it's only heresay. I've photographed or scanned every models ID for years. I don't wanna be a dick since this wasn't discussed, and like to resolve misunderstandings whenever possible. However she WILL face this issue with other photogs and the requirement for verifiable proof of age won't simply go away. Jul 04 10 03:20 pm Link Personally, I have two releases. One for those under the age of 18 and one for those 18 yrs and over. If under it still requires the parent to list info about the Minor as well as about themselves. This includes their name and relationship as well as proof of ID such as if driver's license, the id #, state, their name. Then, the minor, parent, ID and release are all photographed together in one photo and seperate photos then of each person, release, ID. (May be a bit excessive but, I never have to wory about someone coming back again and come up with any excuse at all.) My standard release is also 2257 compliant. Once again, the ID provided is listed on the release, it is photographed alone, the release is photographed alone and a photo of the model holding the top page, (the info page) of the release in one hand and her ID in the other so I have one photo with model, id and release all in the one image. The paperwork is done before the model even gets ready for the shoot itself. Jul 04 10 03:20 pm Link I don't understand some of these responses. The 2257 law is pretty clear. A copy of a picture ID is required for any photos of adult nature, even implied. The photographer must have a copy in his files before he can post on any website, even here on Modelmayhem. It's a pain in the ass but a simple model-release will not suffice should the law ask for proof of age for all your posts. It's required by law regardless of what fears the model may have. Jul 04 10 03:21 pm Link Abbitt Photography wrote: Howdy Dave, Jul 04 10 03:28 pm Link Why would you wait until after the shoot to have the model sign paperwork. That's a recipe for disaster. Jul 04 10 03:30 pm Link most photographers take a shot of me holding up my id next to my face.. instead of photocopying it. Jul 04 10 03:33 pm Link Simple solution...Handle your paperwork first, do not even think about taking a shot before paperwork is finished, photo copies made, and copy given to the model. If there are any issues or the model balks remedy the situation or tell them to go home. Jul 04 10 03:36 pm Link Henri3 wrote: I get proof of age plus a right thumb print. It's easy to have a fake ID with a real photo on it. Jul 04 10 03:36 pm Link I have shot over 300 models. I always copy their drivers license ID and have a model release signed before i take the first photo. No ID, and signed release,... NO SHOOT. Jul 04 10 03:38 pm Link Marvin Dockery wrote: Had never thought about that but, you are right. Tomorrow I'm going to go get an ink pad. Wonder where I can get one of those "ink" pads they use at the bank? Jul 04 10 03:40 pm Link Show her the door. If she doesn't like your way of doing business, there is always someone else to take her place. Nobody is forced to work with anyone. At this point, the vibe and shoot is spoiled. I sure wouldn't want to be her now, if someone asked you how your experience was with her. You'll be around a lot longer than she will so don't sacrifice your own business practices, because one person doesn't comply. Jul 04 10 03:40 pm Link Thanx I know 2257 stuff has been discussed a zillion times, but I couldn't locate a discussion on typical procedures for glam shooters who care about the law and their reputation. In this particular case I had no luck getting more than one line email replies, so a preshoot discussion never really ensued. What was to have been a 3-4 hr shoot ended up being a 100 min test since it's all the time she had. Misunderstandings DO happen and I hate to see things go south when they do. Pity, as we had fun & did some cool stuff. Anyway thanx for the replies- info... it's pretty much what I'd expected. Jul 04 10 03:43 pm Link 401Photo wrote: +1000 Jul 04 10 03:45 pm Link Not every photographer, but many of them. Jul 04 10 04:15 pm Link If I shoot lingerie/swimsuit I request that she shows me her ID before the shoot that she is 16+, implied/topless/nude that she is 18+. I also require that one of her parents sign the contract when she is a minor. I do not request a copy of the ID because Im not sure if that is legal according to Dutch law. Jul 04 10 04:23 pm Link Out of hundreds of nude shoots, only a smallish minority of photographers have asked to copy my ID. It's by no means unheard of and it is becoming more commonplace with 2257 paranoia, but it's obviously still wise to bring all of this up before the shoot. Jul 04 10 05:33 pm Link Whether I'm shooting nudes or not, I always require at least two current IDs at least one of which must be a state or federally issued current, recognizable photo ID that confirms the model is at least 18 years old and I photocopy both. (This last is the proof required for 2257 purposes.) I state this requirement at every preliminary meeting and include the requirement in my confirmation email. There is no excuse for the model not having it and I never shoot if I have not seen and copied it first. Side note: The 2257 requirement is a federal mandate and must be adhered to no matter what the model's age if the shoot or any picture in it falls under the 2257 and related regulations. Jul 04 10 09:43 pm Link Marvin Dockery wrote: Not really necessary (but a nice touch) for 2257 purposes. The photographer is permitted to rely on the model's affirmation and the appropriate ID. Jul 04 10 09:46 pm Link I always do, and if they are under 18 a parent must be present at the shoot. Jul 04 10 09:49 pm Link Henri3 wrote: First: manager = no shoot! (I have been known to make exceptions in some other areas.) Jul 04 10 10:10 pm Link pullins photography wrote: Where is there more information regarding this requirement (SSCard) you mention here? Jul 04 10 10:23 pm Link I do. Jul 04 10 10:53 pm Link And, I don't shoot minors, even for fashion or portrait work. Jul 04 10 10:54 pm Link |
