Model
Mercy
Posts: 2088
Los Angeles, California, US
Adain At wrote:
I would never work with a model who requires a deposit or a cancellation fee. Umm I'm kind of curious at why you wouldn't work with a model who requires a cancellation fee? You booked her/his time and if you're going to cancel with little notice, therefore making it hard to get other paid work in your place, why shouldn't they be compensated?
~Mercy
Photographer
Arizona Shoots
Posts: 28657
Phoenix, Arizona, US
You know.. I been thinking about this a little bit tonight.. There may be a business opportunity for someone here.
Imagine, if you will, someone who acted as a mediary (not sure if that's the right word I'm looking for) for securing funds prior to a shoot. Said person is licensed, bonded, and insured.
When a model books a shoot, photographer sends his payment to the mediary, model does the shoot, photographer signs a voucher, model submits voucher to the mediary who releases funds to the model... Sort of like an escrow service, but not quite.
The mediary is not acting as an agent. In other words, he or she simply collects and disperses money and has no other part in the booking process.
I'd be willing to bet that most photographers would be willing to put up a booking deposit in this situation.
Just a rough, unpolished thought.
Photographer
Arizona Shoots
Posts: 28657
Phoenix, Arizona, US
Mercy wrote:
Umm I'm kind of curious at why you wouldn't work with a model who requires a cancellation fee? You booked her/his time and if you're going to cancel with little notice, therefore making it hard to get other paid work in your place, why shouldn't they be compensated?
~Mercy The timing of your post is funny.. I had a model about 2 yrs ago flake on a paid shoot. And she contacts me every time she comes to Phoenix asking for paid work. I call her on it every time, and she acts like I'm making it up or I have her confused with someone else.. I have an extremely low flake rate, and the ones I have, I remember.
Anyways, her profile has in big bold letters about her cancellation fee. She just contacted me again yesterday, and told her she still owes me one.
That door swings both ways.
Model
Laura UnBound
Posts: 28745
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
John Jebbia wrote:
You know.. I been thinking about this a little bit tonight.. There may be a business opportunity for someone here.
Imagine, if you will, someone who acted as a mediary (not sure if that's the right word I'm looking for) for securing funds prior to a shoot. Said person is licensed, bonded, and insured.
When a model books a shoot, photographer sends his payment to the mediary, model does the shoot, photographer signs a voucher, model submits voucher to the mediary who releases funds to the model... Sort of like an escrow service, but not quite.
The mediary is not acting as an agent. In other words, he or she simply collects and disperses money and has no other part in the booking process.
I'd be willing to bet that most photographers would be willing to put up a booking deposit in this situation.
Just a rough, unpolished thought. This has been discussed before, I remember ei total prod making a rather lengthy post as to why it isn't worth it to any random individual from the Internet to suddenly become responsible for dealing with other people's money, and everything they would have to invest in getting it up and running wouldn't pay off (what percentage are you gonna pay to the middle man so they can remain in business? People balk about rates for gods sake, you add deposits and a "booker fee" on top of it...)
Photographer
Farenell Photography
Posts: 18832
Albany, New York, US
You could certainly try asking for a shoot deposit but I really see it as being a crap shoot.
I'm sure you're an honest, upstanding model but unfortunately, you will have to deal with the baggage of those who are not. I'm sure it could work for you once you make a significant name for yourself but at the same time. But I've known traveling models who have been at this for literally years who do not ask for deposits (or only require it if the person cancelled on them before). Eating cancellations are just part of diet of a those who travel.
Photographer
Rp-photo
Posts: 42711
Houston, Texas, US
Nicolette wrote:
When traveling, you should just expect that lots of people will flake on you Almost every time a travelling model has approached me, they've either gone silent at some point or claim to have cancelled their trip due to other photographers cancelling.
I also have a personal policy of not seeking models when I'm travelling out of town, as I don't need the stress affecting day job duties. Instead, I concentrate on editing, networking, and landscape photography if the area warrants it.
Not paying or getting paid minimizes the damage, but it's still frustrating.
Photographer
Mickle Design Werks
Posts: 5967
Washington, District of Columbia, US
Engel Schrei wrote:
*shrug*
I never required a deposit, but they were appreciated. I always refunded anything I had to cancel, for whatever reason, and I don't recall many complaints about my business practices.
I do, however, have a very strict policy on travel expenses. I trade shoot time for travel costs. If my trip costs aren't covered before I leave (via deposits or prepayment or whatever), I refunded whatever I had and canceled the trip. Being stranded somewhere because of random asshattery is never enjoyable for anyone involved.
Yes, everyone involved runs risks. People cancel, people flake, people steal, lie, cheat, etc. It's part of dealing with the general populous. You don't get very far in life if you aren't willing to take a risk every now and then. I spent almost 5 years traveling the US & Canada on a wing and prayer, depending on the good grace and good manners of many many many strangers. I played the odds, and dammit if I didn't come out of it pretty well. I have very very few "horror" stories, and I've worked with more people then most of the models on MM.
Everyone has "rules" to their business.. and everyone has their exceptions to those rules. Sometimes you're the rule, and sometimes you're the exception.
Either way, life goes on. There are many many incredible people in this world .. and the worst they can say is no. Ask, offer, negotiate .. and see what happens. +1
The practical answer for most Models here.
Photographer
White Lace Studios
Posts: 1719
Mesa, Arizona, US
Adain At wrote:
I would never work with a model who requires a deposit or a cancellation fee. Neither would I.
Mercy wrote:
Umm I'm kind of curious at why you wouldn't work with a model who requires a cancellation fee? You booked her/his time and if you're going to cancel with little notice, therefore making it hard to get other paid work in your place, why shouldn't they be compensated?
~Mercy As stated in the thread by several, including me, you are just as likely to flake as I am.
We both have the same level of risk going into the shoot. I would rather we begin based on a basic level of trust. If we can’t start there then it’s probably best we don’t shoot. If deposits are working for some, great. Personally I wouldn’t pay them and don’t require them.
…some have referred to rescheduling. The inference that this is somehow unprofessional or flaky is ridiculous. In business (in the real world) appointments, meetings, etc get rescheduled all the time. I juggle a very busy schedule. Some things need to be rescheduled in many facets of my life.
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 26342
Portland, Oregon, US
John Jebbia wrote:
You know.. I been thinking about this a little bit tonight.. There may be a business opportunity for someone here.
Imagine, if you will, someone who acted as a mediary (not sure if that's the right word I'm looking for) for securing funds prior to a shoot. Said person is licensed, bonded, and insured.
When a model books a shoot, photographer sends his payment to the mediary, model does the shoot, photographer signs a voucher, model submits voucher to the mediary who releases funds to the model... Sort of like an escrow service, but not quite.
The mediary is not acting as an agent. In other words, he or she simply collects and disperses money and has no other part in the booking process.
I'd be willing to bet that most photographers would be willing to put up a booking deposit in this situation.
Just a rough, unpolished thought. Yeah, okay. Go for it.
Alternatively, you can choose to work with only the people you trust.
Photographer
FlirtynFun Photography
Posts: 13926
Houston, Texas, US
I hire traveling models regularly for workshops. I DON'T pay deposits. Its not difficult to speak to other models who've worked with me to quickly understand that I do what I say I'm going to do and that I communicate effectively.
I would think that many flakes/cancellations happen to traveling models from single photographers for individual shoots. Maybe working with a photographer who does local events/shoots/workshops to make sure your base travel costs is an idea. That way, worse case scenario, you're not losing money on a trip.
Model
Rebecca Lawrence
Posts: 878
New York, New York, US
You will get a lot of last minute cancellations. You will very rarely get deposits or have your cancellation fee honored. The only thing you can do to prepare yourself is to ANTICIPATE flakes and be prepared to not lose money on your trip. There's no way to really do this well, but here are a few suggestions:
1. Don't base a trip around a single photographer. Have a diverse group of people to work with on a single trip if it involves air travel or significant driving time. A lot of shorter shoots may yield more than a single high-paying gig that could cancel.
2. Keep a list of photographers who may have said they are available for shorter shoots at the last minute. Let people you were unable to schedule with know that you'd be happy to contact them if anyone else cancels and make sure you exchange schedules and have a phone number for them on file in the event that you find yourself with last minute availability.
3. If you can, leave an open day or half day at the end of your trip. I usually like to save a day off or touristy day for myself anyway, and more often than not, I've had to use this day to accommodate someone who had to reschedule last minute from earlier in the week.
4. Backtrack. Although it sounds counterintuitive, I know that some cities have been more prone to flakes for me. And I will work with this by visiting that city twice within one or two months of the initial trip. Occasionally I can fill in my schedule for an entire second trip based solely around people who had last minute issues come up the first time. (Additionally, I can work with everyone who mentioned to me on the first trip that they'd love to shoot but were busy, out of town, needed to save money, whatever). It's less fun, but driving to a city and then backtracking home and hitting up everyone you missed along the way instead of choosing a new route can be good for that.
In summary, since you can't expect deposits or cancellation fees, your best bet is hoping someone can reschedule in the future. If you try to make time for this to happen,you'll be better off. I remain flexible on my travel schedule -- usually don't plan more than three months in advance -- so that I can accommodate some things like this. When someone cancels, be prepared to find another shoot or have something fun to do while traveling or a friend you could hang out with in the back of your mind so that when someone does cancel, you don't spend the whole day fuming on the forums and can see it as an opportunity to have some fun.
I know a lot of this is overly optimistic and presumes that you won't starve to death if someone cancels. But this is how I travel - try your best to communicate very clearly and avoid flakes in the first place - and then be ready to not totally lose your mind when they happen! If you're not going to make your rent/car payment/eat if someone cancels, your trip is too high risk in the first place. I won't get on a plane anymore if I don't have some savings (or at the very least credit) to get me home if something goes wrong.
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 23575
Salem, Oregon, US
i paid a $50 paypal deposit for one traveling model. otherwise i've never been asked for a deposit by a model.
in our portrait business we require $20 to book a session (remainder due at the shoot). since we started doing that we haven't had any customer flakes.
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 13562
Washington, Utah, US
John Jebbia wrote:
I've found that more often than not one of the following happens.
1. The photographer wants to keep others from shooting "his" model and therefore says she sucked, even though she didn't.
2. Photographer doesn't want to get involved in drama, and even though she sucked, he's not going to say so. Also, a reference is a biased representative of the shoots the model actually showed up for. It in no way gives insights into how many shoots the model canceled or flaked on in relation to that shoot.
The fact I verify a model showed up for one shoot does not mean she will show up for mine or that I will get my deposit back if she doesn't. (In fact, it's fairly clear she's showed up for some shoots, by the fact she photos from those shoots - What does talking to the photographer really verify?)
The bottom line is that freelance internet model - photographer arrangements overall come with more risk than agency bookings. I think attempts on the part of either party to transfer that risk completely to the other person by requiring them only to pay a deposit, more often than not, won't be accepted. If you don't want to accept the risk of unknown, unproven internet models or photographers canceling or flaking, then either work through an agency or limit your work to those you have confidence will be reliable.
Photographer
Adain At
Posts: 361
Los Angeles, California, US
Laura UnBound wrote:
This has been discussed before, I remember ei total prod making a rather lengthy post as to why it isn't worth it to any random individual from the Internet to suddenly become responsible for dealing with other people's money, and everything they would have to invest in getting it up and running wouldn't pay off (what percentage are you gonna pay to the middle man so they can remain in business? People balk about rates for gods sake, you add deposits and a "booker fee" on top of it...) Then that guy is an idiot. The startup costs are relatively small, and with today's financial tech, it's easy to collect/reverse charges. It's basically an online escrow for small amounts. Doesn't have to be limited to photography.
Any time someone comes up with a business idea, there's 50,000 people who will give them 500,000 reasons why it's a terrible idea that should not be pursued. Even though it's an idea that could work, and probably would work.
Kind of like this: https://www.miniescrow.com/
Boom.
Photographer
FlirtynFun Photography
Posts: 13926
Houston, Texas, US
Abbitt Photography wrote:
Also, a reference is a biased representative of the shoots the model actually showed up for. It in no way gives insights into how many shoots the model canceled or flaked on in relation to that shoot.
The fact I verify a model showed up for one shoot does not mean she will show up for mine or that I will get my deposit back if she doesn't. (In fact, it's fairly clear she's showed up for some shoots, by the fact she photos from those shoots - What does talking to the photographer really verify?) People's behavior is usually pretty consistant. If a model shows up for 5 other photographers and they rave about how kickass she was as a model...chances are, unless you're doing something completely different, that you'll have a similar experience.
I've had a few extremely popular ModelMayhem models who have either flaked on a paid gig or with whom I've had a terrible experience. When I did research after the fact, I found that others had similar experiences with them.
When I book a model today...you can bet I've checked around to see what other paying photographers have thought about working with her.
I imagine models do the same for me.
Photographer
FlirtynFun Photography
Posts: 13926
Houston, Texas, US
Adain At wrote:
Any time someone comes up with a business idea, there's 50,000 people who will give them 500,000 reasons why it's a terrible idea that should not be pursued. Anytime someone refuses to listen to 50,000 people who give VALID reasons why something won't work, it makes me think they're an idiot- BOOM
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 13562
Washington, Utah, US
FlirtynFun Photography wrote:
People's behavior is usually pretty consistant. If a model shows up for 5 other photographers and they rave about how kickass she was as a model...chances are, unless you're doing something completely different, that you'll have a similar experience.
I've had a few extremely popular ModelMayhem models who have either flaked on a paid gig or with whom I've had a terrible experience. When I did research after the fact, I found that others had similar experiences with them.
When I book a model today...you can bet I've checked around to see what other paying photographers have thought about working with her.
I imagine models do the same for me. Even if any individual model is consistent, (which I'm not sure I buy), checking a reference is not a measure of consistency, It only verifies they showed up for that shoot. It could be they cancel on 75% of shoots in comparison or have never canceled.
Case in point: I had an experienced traveling model cancel on me last minute for a better paying opportunity. I'm sure that photographer would report the model showed up promptly and did a great job. I'm sure the model doesn't tell other photographers she canceled on me, and obviously I won't be used as a reference, so the fact she canceled on me and probably other photographers will never be known by checking references.
I did a shoot 2 weeks ago. The model showed up on time with me and did a great job. Does that mean she does that with everyone? I have no idea. She could have canceled on her last 5 booked shoots in a row for all I know. She could have canceled on someone else to shoot with me for all I know. I have no personal knowledge as to how often that model or any other model flaked, canceled or vanished in relation to the time they showed up with me, so as a reference, I can't provide any objective information as to how reliable that model is or how likely it is they will show up for someone else's shoot.
I seem to recall you once talking about a traveling model who had a few good references that bailed on you, leaving you in a bind.
Photographer
FlirtynFun Photography
Posts: 13926
Houston, Texas, US
Abbitt Photography wrote:
Even if any individual model is consistent, (which I'm not sure I buy), checking a reference is not a measure of consistency,
I seem to recall you once talking about a traveling model who had a few good references that bailed on you, leaving you in a bind. I did not say to check A reference...I said references...as in "plural"...more than one...maybe as many as 4 or 5.
That particular model, I did NOT check references on because of her high number of posts on MM and her tear sheets. After I got burned and mentioned it in a forum, I had SEVERAL people let me know she was well known for that shit. Had I done my homework up front, I might not have had the issue.
Research up front works in most cases. Will it entirely eliminate flakes? No...but it will drastically reduce them.
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 13562
Washington, Utah, US
FlirtynFun Photography wrote:
I did not say to check A reference...I said references...as in "plural"...more than one...maybe as many as 4 or 5. I can check 5 or 10. It's still a biased sampling. It's not random, and it does not include the photographers that model flaked or canceled on. I still do not know how many shoots that model bailed on in relation to that 5 or 10 she showed up for, which is the measure of reliability.
Just because I verify a traveling model showed up for the 5 shoots she claimed she did, does not mean she won't flake on me or will return my deposit if she does flake. In the case I mentioned above, a few photographers from the model's credit section I talked to all said the model showed up for them and did a great job. So what? That does not reflect in any way the photographers like me she bailed on.
I also agree to the points John Jebba made previously about why references may be biased.
If you find references help you identify reliable traveling models who won't run off with your deposit, then good for you. You should use them. I find they offer little.
Photographer
New Kidd Imagery
Posts: 1909
South Salt Lake, Utah, US
Do it... charge a deposit...
Some will pay it.. some won't.
See how your booking is affected. If you get 10 bookings in a week and 66% of them flake without the deposit and then you implement the "deposit" policy and you book only 5 gigs a week and no one flakes, your are in the black and your policy is helping.
Risk vs Reward.
Photographer
Danny Does Glamour
Posts: 2346
Atlanta, Georgia, US
David Cajio Photography wrote:
If the model has a proper business with an EIN/TIN as well as insurance, proper business address, and a drawn up contract (by an attorney) then I may be willing to pay a deposit.
Otherwise, I am paying a random stranger, on the internet, whom I've never met, a sum of money, completely in good faith, that I may never see again. No thanks.
Hate to even mention it, but what happens if you get in a car accident and are killed, what if you get hurt and are unavailable, etc -- how do I recoup the money I've paid, not even to mention that is money you are holding on to, potentially using or collecting interest on, before delivering a service.
Perhaps, an escrow account that collects interest and is refundable after a period of time if conditions are not met. Just pay the deposit with a credit card. If she no-shows, file a dispute. That way, the model feels secure because she has a deposit. You feel secure because you have recourse if she does not show.
Photographer
New Kidd Imagery
Posts: 1909
South Salt Lake, Utah, US
Abbitt Photography wrote:
Also, a reference is a biased representative of the shoots the model actually showed up for. It in no way gives insights into how many shoots the model canceled or flaked on in relation to that shoot.
The fact I verify a model showed up for one shoot does not mean she will show up for mine or that I will get my deposit back if she doesn't. (In fact, it's fairly clear she's showed up for some shoots, by the fact she photos from those shoots - What does talking to the photographer really verify?)
The bottom line is that freelance internet model - photographer arrangements overall come with more risk than agency bookings. I think attempts on the part of either party to transfer that risk completely to the other person by requiring them only to pay a deposit, more often than not, won't be accepted. If you don't want to accept the risk of unknown, unproven internet models or photographers canceling or flaking, then either work through an agency or limit your work to those you have confidence will be reliable. I agree with A LOT of what you say, but some models have reputations (good or bad).. There are some models on here that I would have ZERO problem giving a deposit to.. but there are others that make me even wonder who they even are.
That being said... Deposits are not given in cash.. and shouldn't.. if a model doesn't accept paypal or some other form of credit card acceptance.. they ain't getting my business... because if they DO in fact flake... I can then dispute the charges if they don't voluntarily give the deposit back.
Photographer
New Kidd Imagery
Posts: 1909
South Salt Lake, Utah, US
Danny Does Glamour wrote:
Just pay the deposit with a credit card. If she no-shows, file a dispute. That way, the model feels secure because she has a deposit. You feel secure because you have recourse if she does not show. This.
Photographer
Danny Does Glamour
Posts: 2346
Atlanta, Georgia, US
Adain At wrote:
I would never work with a model who requires a deposit or a cancellation fee. Yeah, it would suck to actually be held financially accountable for screwing a model out of a booking.
Photographer
DC Photo - Inactive
Posts: 4949
Trenton, New Jersey, US
Danny Does Glamour wrote:
Just pay the deposit with a credit card. If she no-shows, file a dispute. That way, the model feels secure because she has a deposit. You feel secure because you have recourse if she does not show. A dispute can and sometimes boils down to he said/she said. Not even counting that some CC's charge a fee for cancellation, which doesn't even take into account that a lot of models book shoots months in advance and want the deposit then. At that point the charges have already been paid off the bill and a dispute isn't likely to be honored due to the age and the payment being made.
Edit:
Also, how many models do you know that have a merchant account? My guess is very few.
Adain At wrote:
I would never work with a model who requires a deposit or a cancellation fee. This I don't agree with. I have no issues with a cancellation fee, so long as the model is willing to honor the same.
I'm still not sure why everyone is arguing something as basic as me saying that any model, photographer, etc wishing to deal in business transactions and present herself/himself as a business actually act like a business, become one, pay taxes and get proper insurance. Why does this seem like such an outlandish concept?
Photographer
GM Photography
Posts: 6322
Olympia, Washington, US
Danny Does Glamour wrote:
Just pay the deposit with a credit card. If she no-shows, file a dispute. That way, the model feels secure because she has a deposit. You feel secure because you have recourse if she does not show. I doubt that many traveling models have a merchant services account so that they can process credit cards. Paypal would seem like the most logical way to do it, but it could still come down to a "he said / she said" situation.
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 26342
Portland, Oregon, US
FlirtynFun Photography wrote:
I hire traveling models regularly for workshops. I DON'T pay deposits. Its not difficult to speak to other models who've worked with me to quickly understand that I do what I say I'm going to do and that I communicate effectively.
I would think that many flakes/cancellations happen to traveling models from single photographers for individual shoots. Maybe working with a photographer who does local events/shoots/workshops to make sure your base travel costs is an idea. That way, worse case scenario, you're not losing money on a trip. I would resist paying a deposit:
>>> I am very experienced, and there are dozens of models in my portfolio & on my web site. Ask any of them for a reference.
>>> If a traveling model needs a deposit from me, she's telling me that she doesn't trust me, and if that's the case, I'd rather not work with a model who is uncomfortable with me.
>>> If a model asks me for a deposit, I will assume (rightly or wrongly) that she hasn't bothered to check my references.
>>> I tend to avoid legal entanglements. Since money is changing hands, is there a contract or some kind of document that covers the transaction? Something written by a lawyer & not some amateur?
>>> Do I get a receipt for that deposit?
>>> What constitutes an acceptable and/or an unacceptable cancellation?
>>> What happens if the model, who is holding my deposit, fails to show up on time & ready to go?
>>> How do we resolve disputes?
So, it's a complication that I would tend to avoid.
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 13562
Washington, Utah, US
New Kidd Imagery wrote:
I agree with A LOT of what you say, but some models have reputations (good or bad).. There are some models on here that I would have ZERO problem giving a deposit to.. but there are others that make me even wonder who they even are. I think I'm in agreement with you. I also would give or not give a deposit based on how reputable the model is or what risk I think she represents.
I just argue that relying on a reference or even a few is not a good indicator of that risk or of the potential to resolve a non-refunded deposit.
Along the lines of what David mentioned earlier, dealing with a local established business with a store front and known reputation is very different from dealing with an internet based independent contractor you know little about who lives in another state.
Also, as I mentioned earlier, I'm not arguing people should not charge a deposit or pay one if they feel so inclined. I'm just pointing out why many will not be willing to pay such deposits.
Model
Mercy
Posts: 2088
Los Angeles, California, US
John Jebbia wrote:
The timing of your post is funny.. I had a model about 2 yrs ago flake on a paid shoot. And she contacts me every time she comes to Phoenix asking for paid work. I call her on it every time, and she acts like I'm making it up or I have her confused with someone else.. I have an extremely low flake rate, and the ones I have, I remember.
Anyways, her profile has in big bold letters about her cancellation fee. She just contacted me again yesterday, and told her she still owes me one.
That door swings both ways. I would have no problem paying a cancellation fee. I work with photographers who require them as well. As stated in my profile if for some reason I cancel I also pay kill fees for whatever was discussed prior (i.e. hotel, mua, whatever). This is a business and if you can't respect the people's time you are working with you shouldn't be in it. I would be very hesitant to work with someone who was against my cancellation policy. It makes me think they are more likely to cancel.
~Mercy
Photographer
Danny Does Glamour
Posts: 2346
Atlanta, Georgia, US
GM Photography wrote:
I doubt that many traveling models have a merchant services account so that they can process credit cards. Paypal would seem like the most logical way to do it, but it could still come down to a "he said / she said" situation. You can pay via Paypal with a credit card. Nevertheless, Paypal handles disputes much the same way as a credit card. So either way you are protected from a model who flakes after you've paid her a deposit.
Photographer
Danny Does Glamour
Posts: 2346
Atlanta, Georgia, US
Looknsee Photography wrote:
>>> If a traveling model needs a deposit from me, she's telling me that she doesn't trust me, and if that's the case, I'd rather not work with a model who is uncomfortable with me. Why would a model ever trust you? You are a complete stranger to her. Trust is an earned privilege and not a right.
>>> If a model asks me for a deposit, I will assume (rightly or wrongly) that she hasn't bothered to check my references. The two have nothing to do with each other. If you rent property and they ask for a security deposit do you assume they haven't checked your references? No. You know it is customary and designed to protect the property owner. Models asking for deposits protect them in a similar way.
Traveling models spend a great deal of time, money, and effort getting from one destination to another. A cancellation can be devastating. Deposits provide security and allow them to better plan their trip. It's really that simple.
Photographer
Danny Does Glamour
Posts: 2346
Atlanta, Georgia, US
David Cajio Photography wrote:
A dispute can and sometimes boils down to he said/she said. Not even counting that some CC's charge a fee for cancellation, which doesn't even take into account that a lot of models book shoots months in advance and want the deposit then. At that point the charges have already been paid off the bill and a dispute isn't likely to be honored due to the age and the payment being made.
Edit:
Also, how many models do you know that have a merchant account? My guess is very few. I've never met a model who did not have a Paypal account. You can use a credit card to pay a Paypal invoice. You also have buyer protection through Paypal itself.
Your explanation about how disputes work is incorrect.
Photographer
JQuest
Posts: 2449
Syracuse, New York, US
I'm more apt to consider paying a deposit to a model that I've worked with before than one I never have. Familiarity, reliability and all. That said, depending on the model I may consider a deposit, or not. It's situational, they're all welcome to request it, just so long as they understand I'm equally as welcome to pass on it.
No hard feelings, it's just business. Whether it's good business or bad business I'm not sure. I have also paid models for sessions that I've canceled when there was no cancellation fee ever discussed. I think at the end of the day it just comes down to people doing the right thing, and the by that I mean what's right for them.
Photographer
DC Photo - Inactive
Posts: 4949
Trenton, New Jersey, US
Danny Does Glamour wrote:
I've never met a model who did not have a Paypal account. You can use a credit card to pay a Paypal invoice. You also have buyer protection through Paypal itself.
Your explanation about how disputes work is incorrect. No, your understanding of how disputes work is incorrect.
Paypal receives dispute. Paypal contacts seller. Paypal notifies buyer seller has responded and allows follow-up. Paypal then makes a decision.
Generally, they will side the with buyer, but this is definitely not always the case and there have been forum posts on this very site detailing that.
Also, I love how you have completely ignored the fact I mentioned that a lot of models book months in advance. Disputes via CCs and Paypal both look very poorly upon month old disputes, a lot of the times refusing to honor them.
...and to top it all off your very own wit and words prove my entire point
Danny Does Glamour wrote:
Why would a model ever trust you? You are a complete stranger to her. Trust is an earned privilege and not a right. Reverse the roles, why would a photographer trust the model, they are a complete stranger. Trust is an earned privilege and I don't myself, nor know anyone, that hands over sums of money to strangers they don't trust.
Photographer
Danny Does Glamour
Posts: 2346
Atlanta, Georgia, US
David Cajio Photography wrote:
No, your understanding of how disputes work is incorrect.
Paypal receives dispute. Paypal contacts seller. Paypal notifies buyer seller has responded and allows follow-up. Paypal then makes a decision.
Generally, they will side the with buyer, but this is definitely not always the case and there have been forum posts on this very site detailing that.
Also, I love how you have completely ignored the fact I mentioned that a lot of models book months in advance. Disputes via CCs and Paypal both look very poorly upon month old disputes, a lot of the times refusing to honor them.
...and to top it all off your very own wit and words prove my entire point
Reverse the roles, why would a photographer trust the model, they are a complete stranger. Trust is an earned privilege and I don't myself, nor know anyone, that hands over sums of money to strangers they don't trust. I've gone through a dispute with Paypal and a dispute with a credit card in the last 30 days. With both you are immediately issued a provisional credit. The buyer is favored so the burden of proof is on the SELLER to provide proof that the dispute should be decided in their favor. Void of that proof they will side with the buyer. This should provide the security you need to pay a deposit.
BTW, regarding the Paypal dispute, the transaction in question took place 8 months ago. With most credit cards you have 60 days to file a dispute. The solution? Don't book with a model more than 60 days out. Simple.
The photographer said the act of asking for a deposit made him think the model didn't trust him. I pointed out that the model SHOULDN'T trust him. The model doesn't trust you so she requires a deposit. You don't trust the model so you pay with a credit card so you can dispute the charge if the model flakes. Simple again.
Photographer
New Kidd Imagery
Posts: 1909
South Salt Lake, Utah, US
Danny Does Glamour wrote:
I've gone through a dispute with Paypal and a dispute with a credit card in the last 30 days. With both you are immediately issued a provisional credit. The buyer is favored so the burden of proof is on the SELLER to provide proof that the dispute should be decided in their favor. Void of that proof they will side with the buyer. This should provide the security you need to pay a deposit.
BTW, regarding the Paypal dispute, the transaction in question took place 8 months ago. With most credit cards you have 60 days to file a dispute. The solution? Don't book with a model more than 60 days out. Simple.
The photographer said the act of asking for a deposit made him think the model didn't trust him. I pointed out that the model SHOULDN'T trust him. The model doesn't trust you so she requires a deposit. You don't trust the model so you pay with a credit card so you can dispute the charge if the model flakes. Simple again. Makes sense to me.
The model would have to PROVE that she showed up to the gig... a sales receipt could do that with the buyer's signature if she is worried that he would dispute any charges.
If the model doesn't show up, she cannot get a signature without forging it and their for paypal will likely side with the buyer.. as someone who deals with customers that try and depute items purchased and received from ebay, I know that I have to get a tracking number EVERY TIME plus sales receipt or I just gave away my item... Most of the time as a seller, I win any dispute as I have proof that they got the item (or at least I sent it).
Photographer
CaliFoto
Posts: 139
San Francisco, California, US
Deposit enough that if every one of your photographers flaked, you could still fly home and not be out money. Deposit based on opportunity cost. However, doors swing both ways with deposit. If a photographer is paying you, what happens when they book and you cancel out on them? They lose money on both rental costs + deposit. Sure, they can take you to court, but really that drags things down. References don't really mean much because you cannot use past experiences to determine future performance. But, get a contract that is not a model release made to state "if you cancel within X days deposit is mine, otherwise, if I cancel within X days, deposit + fee is yours" If there's nothing binding and all I do is send people a paypal check, I bet you a lot of photographers would be out money. Also, I find it highly unlikely that companies pay before they do their work. Every job I've had, I've had to work before I got paid. 2c. About the paypal disputes and especially credit card disputes; There may be distance limits or physical products switching hands ( read the TOS, not going to read it for you ). Also with credit cards ( and I have done this before ), some companies WILL put a note on your credit report if you employ the FCRA. I disputed a charge and there was a note a few months later stating "user does not agree with outcome of FCRA dispute" For credit card charge backs: http://ag.ca.gov/consumers/general/cred … rights.php ( This is the one that got my credit report noted ) Number 3: "The transaction cannot be with a merchant who is located more than 100 miles from your home or outside your state of residence." Also Number 1: "The disputed amount must be over $50."
Photographer
GeM Photographic
Posts: 2456
Racine, Wisconsin, US
Laura UnBound wrote:
Enforcing a 100% deposit policy is difficult and rarely works unless you have people literally beating down your door to throw their money at you.
However, what you can do, is require a booking fee (that will count towards your shoot later) that absolutely holds their spot on your calendar, inform people who refuse to make a deposit that you'll still be happy to schedule with theme, but if someone willing to put down the deposit comes along and wants that persons day, they get bumped out of the spot for not putting a deposit down. People guaranteeing you money are first priority. They can either take a tentative date, or put down a deposit. The worst thing is holding open a peak day like Saturday and having that person cancel last minute, because everyone else has already filled their saturday and you're left sitting around twiddling your thumbs. From the other side of the lens, I think Laura's suggestion makes sense.
Model
Laura UnBound
Posts: 28745
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
BorninSF wrote:
Deposit enough that if every one of your photographers flaked, you could still fly home and not be out money. Deposit based on opportunity cost.
However, doors swing both ways with deposit. If a photographer is paying you, what happens when they book and you cancel out on them? They lose money on both rental costs + deposit. Sure, they can take you to court, but really that drags things down. References don't really mean much because you cannot use past experiences to determine future performance.
But, get a contract that is not a model release made to state "if you cancel within X days deposit is mine, otherwise, if I cancel within X days, deposit + fee is yours"
If there's nothing binding and all I do is send people a paypal check, I bet you a lot of photographers would be out money.
Also, I find it highly unlikely that companies pay before they do their work. Every job I've had, I've had to work before I got paid.
2c.
About the paypal disputes and especially credit card disputes; There may be distance limits or physical products switching hands ( read the TOS, not going to read it for you ). Also with credit cards ( and I have done this before ), some companies WILL put a note on your credit report if you employ the FCRA. I disputed a charge and there was a note a few months later stating "user does not agree with outcome of FCRA dispute"
For credit card charge backs:
http://ag.ca.gov/consumers/general/cred … rights.php
( This is the one that got my credit report noted )
Number 3: "The transaction cannot be with a merchant who is located more than 100 miles from your home or outside your state of residence."
Also Number 1: "The disputed amount must be over $50." As for being out on rental costs.... One in about every fifteen photographers that have shot me, tf or hired, in the last five years have actually been renting studios/equipment. Ive shot with maybe 200 people total. The majority of the time we're shooting in their own location or outdoors, with their own or borrowed gear. I've had a Mua a total of four times....in five years. Very very very few people would have been out money had I canceled/flaked.
Ie: it's not safe to assume everyone always has a monetary overhead to deal with on shoots.
As for jobs not paying ahead of time...I'm more inclined to trust a BUSINESS to not flake out or not pay me, than I am to trust a random person online who can disappear from the face of the Internet at the drop of a hat. If its REALLY that important to me, I can follow a legal course of action with a real business/company...I can't do that with someone I don't even know the real name of.
Photographer
Wysiwyg Photography
Posts: 6326
Salt Lake City, Utah, US
Laura UnBound wrote:
Enforcing a 100% deposit policy is difficult and rarely works unless you have people literally beating down your door to throw their money at you.
However, what you can do, is require a booking fee (that will count towards your shoot later) that absolutely holds their spot on your calendar, inform people who refuse to make a deposit that you'll still be happy to schedule with theme, but if someone willing to put down the deposit comes along and wants that persons day, they get bumped out of the spot for not putting a deposit down. People guaranteeing you money are first priority. They can either take a tentative date, or put down a deposit. The worst thing is holding open a peak day like Saturday and having that person cancel last minute, because everyone else has already filled their saturday and you're left sitting around twiddling your thumbs. GeM Photographic wrote:
From the other side of the lens, I think Laura's suggestion makes sense. I'm with the notion that some models have 'earned' the reputation of a getting a deposit from me... If I wanted to shoot Laura.. I would have no problems giving her a deposit.
There are actually quite a few models I have run into on and off this forum that I would have no problems giving a deposit to.
However, there are some models I would be be a bit hesitant to giving a deposit to.
I really think it has to do with who is asking for the deposit then the deposit policy
itself...
The question then lies... how bad do you want to shoot said model? She has a policy.. she says she requires an escort, she says she wants a lunch and at least a 3 hour shoot... she wants half the money up front... Is her look that in demand that you say "OK"? or do you move to the next?
I really think it's a reputation thing and not so much a policy thing. as Some models will be able to charge a deposit and get it, and some won't.
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