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The death of TFP?
Hi This has probably been discussed before, and ive mentioned on other forums. Years ago it was fairly common for new/amateur models to offer tfp in order to get experience and build up their portfolios. This was great for both photographer and model as both benefitted from the experience. Now though it seems that every model, whether on their first or second shoot or only having been modelling a few months, wants to charge £40 an hour or so to do a shoot. Im all for the good models making a living out of modelling and in their cases its totally valid to charge what the market allows. The problem is that a lot of the models wanting to charge from the beginning is that photographers have no way of building up their experience unless they pay up front, and have no idea if the model is any good or capable of carrying off the shoot. Its such a risk to have to pay over £100 every time you want to arrange a shoot with a model, add in studio fees and expenses and its a very expensive gamble. How are these models getting portfolio pictures? If they are charging then i assume the photographers are not giving them the pictures? or are they? If they are then its a double problem in that the model gets paid twice almost. This isnt to say i wont pay for models, in fact i have a few booked that im happy to pay for, but they have good portfolios and references or have an image that im looking specifically for. I am however disappointed in the amount of models whose portfolios i have looked and thought "you know all they need is a few good pictures instead of those badly shot camera style things they have uploaded", contacted them to offer a shoot, only to get a reponse back along the lines of "i dont do tfp, my rates are listed on the site". Are they getting any work? I guess that maybe the idea is that by charging they appear more professional, or scare away the "guy with camera" brigade, but in honesty the guy with camera types are the ones who probably dont mind paying for models with poor portfolios as they might think this means they get a lot more "freedom" with the model, seeing as they are paying. Maybe im just being grumpy........ but theres no way i can afford to take risks on models who have 4 badly shot pictures on their portfolio (despite thinking that with decent shots they might look really good). Whats the general opinion? Dec 31 11 11:57 am Link Blah, that's about it. As long as both parties can benefit from a trade shoot there will always be trade shoots. Not every model or photographer can charge and be paid. BTW, trading isn't limited to photography. I trade computer work, retouching, etc. Dec 31 11 11:58 am Link I'm sensing the real issue is different that what was presented by the OP. Dec 31 11 12:02 pm Link In the last 12 months, I've done over 70 TF shoots to create content for my website. I don't see any dwindling of interest on the part of models. If anything, there are more models contacting me than ever before. KM Dec 31 11 12:05 pm Link Who says you have to work with the type models you mentioned ??? Dec 31 11 12:05 pm Link This is a website with widely different experience and talent from all ends of the spectrum, so if you are at the level where you find yourself paying models to shoot with you more than TF work, then make the best of it and choose wisely, utilizing the casting call methods, and so on. Many photographers/models initially pay to play, and find that it's a faster track to the status of being the one who does the charging (or shooting TF with equally talented/experienced people). It looks like you are doing this - and as long as your money is going to experienced, quality models, then I think you are on the right track. Dec 31 11 12:07 pm Link astrographic wrote: If you analyze this statement, you will see where you as a photographer lack confidence. Dec 31 11 12:07 pm Link Perhaps TFP is dying, but if so it's only on MM. Photographers have been doing no cost trades with models and civilian women since the first cameras were made. TFP, from all I've been able to determine over the years, is an internet name for a century plus long activity which is not about to go away. As for pay, pay for experience is NOT something I ever ran across in real world, brick and mortar photogrraphy. I did a shoot for the cover of a regional magazine, which involved three models. One had been modeling for over five years, the second for more than a year and the third was doing her first pro commercial shoot. All were agency provided and all were paid the same amount. Dec 31 11 12:09 pm Link TF is far from dead. I have to say no to TF offers a lot. There's only so many opportunities for me to shoot. It wasn't that way for me when I started. I paid a lot of models to build up my book and get relevant experience. A lot of the results were awful, but slowly I got better. So did a lot of the models who started around the time that I did. Models aren't idiots. If they see work in a photographers book that they like/want, they will see the value and agree to trade. Photographers should do likewise. Dec 31 11 12:14 pm Link I don't think it's going away . . . I'm quite busy with both TF and Paid stuff. Pay if you have to . . . Also develop a port that has something worth offering in Trade . . . Dec 31 11 12:15 pm Link astrographic wrote: If a model with no experience quotes me her rates I politely tell them that when they show me some pictures that are worthy of the rates they are asking for I will gladly pay their rates and move on to the next model. Dec 31 11 12:17 pm Link I haven't paid a dime for shooting any of the models in my port, and I look at myself as a beginner when it comes to this kind of photography. I think it has to do with how the "deal" is presented, and who the "deal" is presented to... Dec 31 11 12:18 pm Link Call me a Necromancer then... because I do TFP all the time. In fact, doing model Photography for about 3 years now, I have only had a very small handful of models send me their rates. Many do not respond, and I don't try and contact models whose profiles seem like they are only looking for money... But it sure doesn't seem from my perspective like there is any shortage of models willing to work for trade, TFP, or just for fun. I will usually have an idea, but I also explain that since it is a trade arrangement, I am willing to shoot some pictures for them in whatever style they want for their own portfolio. I take some shots for me, some shots for them, and everybody walks away happy! Dec 31 11 12:18 pm Link I hate to tell you this but the issues isn't that TFP is going away. The issue or rather simple fact of the matter is there a lot more quality photographers around, whither they be professional or advanced amateurs. Which means that the model(s) you contacted about doing a TFP shoot yesterday was probable contact by 10-15 other photographers about the exact same thing. So you're not competing against the 4 or 5 crappy snaps shots that are in their portfolio you're competing against the work of those 10-15 photographers. As far as paying goes all you can do is look over a models portfolio, check reference and hope that she/he is able to convey, what you see in their portfolio, for you and your able to capture it. I consider myself an observer and recorder of art rather then a creator, just the way my mind works, plus I'm not very good at directing so I look for models that are good at taking a basic idea and running with it, rather then ones that require shot by shot directions. Dec 31 11 12:20 pm Link astrographic wrote: This is very much a UK thing. I hear this from other photographers based in the UK. Dec 31 11 12:21 pm Link It is not that bad here where I live but I can agree with many of your statements. It may be the tough economic times. Dec 31 11 12:22 pm Link It's called testing and it's not going away any time soon. As the OP said it's been common for years and it will continue. Agencies still need new faces and they still need testing, photographers will always need to update their books and have their own creative projects on the side. Granted there may be more to that extensively long diatribe from the OP but I found it rather laborious to read. Dec 31 11 12:23 pm Link Models still shoot TFP just not with you. Dec 31 11 12:27 pm Link Death of TFP.. lol Not bloody likely. Dec 31 11 12:31 pm Link options... this is all about options... if you find yourself consistently being turned down for trade, it means that the models you're asking have better options... figure out how to be a better option  Dec 31 11 12:32 pm Link astrographic wrote: c_h_r_i_s wrote:
Dec 31 11 12:34 pm Link Kevin Russo Photography wrote: I thought he was talking about the risk of paying for a studio and not having anybody show up Dec 31 11 12:35 pm Link Hi Thanks for the replies. I'm not an expert, far from it, i'm still learning. it's not that I lack confidence just money Interesting that so many of you have loads of tfp offers, maybe it's just where I am (Scotland). I'm not trying to offend anyone, i'm all for the models charging if they are good at what they do. As for trading skills, well that's what i'm trying to do. I have a lot to learn, but at the same time I know I can get good shots and help where I can to give someone something that I will try my best with. But my experience has been: contacted about 50 models, only two have said they will do tfp and those are actually ones with good portfolios. I guess it's my fault, maybe by thinking that new models would be more happy to do a tfp trade i'm getting it wrong, maybe I need to ask the more experienced ones. I don't think I have bad pix on my folio, I don't have a huge variety which is why I need more shoots to develop my own skills But hey i'm not looking for an argument lol, just wondering where all these tfp models are hiding. Any advice welcome. Dec 31 11 12:36 pm Link I have no problem getting models to work with me Tf although I seldom do Tf work these days. Perhaps you need to find less experienced models to work with? If you find newbies are turning you down it may just be that they don't see work in your portfolio that they think will benefit theirs. Contrary to your headline, I'd suggest the reverse is true: rather than the death of Tf, networking sites like this mean the death of model's paying photographers to shoot there portfolios... J. Dec 31 11 12:39 pm Link I'm not a fan of TFP, I still do a few but if it's a model I am interested in shooting even if she has limited experience. I would rather pay her for her time rather than spend hours or even days working on the material. I will share a few but at my choosing. Dec 31 11 12:40 pm Link I think you may have added two and two to get five here. Firstly, I think there is something going on at the base level of how you are portraying yourself and your work in your port bio and pics (I can pm you with my perception if it's worth anything to you! ) in combination with the type of models you are contacting and how you are going about it. When you contact these models who are newbs with amateur style shots in need of some good work to get them on the right track, how exactly are you phrasing your opener? Dec 31 11 12:42 pm Link I've only been shooting models for about three years. I'm on Social Security and by no means wealthy so I've never paid models in anything other than pictures. Most, but by no means all, of my models have been newbies. The experience level of the models I shoot has grown roughly parallel to the improvement in my port, so that might tell you something. I try to treat each model as my client because in a very real sense, she is, just as in a very real sense, I'm hers. I'm paying her in pictures that she could not afford to buy with cash, and she's paying me with modeling services that I could not afford to pay for in cash. I do believe that being successful as a "Trade for Pictures" photographer or model requires exactly the same commitment to giving value for services rendered as is required to be successful as a "Trade for Cash" photographer or model. The only thing that's different is the medium of exchange and in some cases, the market in which one functions. And if one is to believe the frequent rants about TFCD "ruining the business" that we see in the forums, apparently we TF* folks sometimes compete successfully in the cash markets as well! All IMHO, as always. Dec 31 11 12:43 pm Link astrographic wrote: Ah this! You posted while I was typing Dec 31 11 12:45 pm Link TF or 'testing' is far from dead in the UK. I get far more requests for TF shoots than I do from models asking me to pay them - at a guess the ratio is around 10:1. On the other hand I only get 4 or 5 offers A YEAR from models wanting to commission me  Dec 31 11 12:49 pm Link  Dec 31 11 12:51 pm Link The other problem is paying someone, paying for the studio, all the other expenses, and the model turns up and is too inexperienced to do the shoot (if they turn up). I mean I don't charge models, so they don't lose anything if I can't work my camera, but the model will still want paid even if they don't know how to model or they don't perform (for example spending one hour of a three hour shoot texting and another hour constantly doing their hair). Ok that's a bit off topic, it's not really about models that are too inexperienced to perform at a shoot. But..... Surely it's best to do tfp until you have experience or when you want to try something new. However, there are mostly amazing models on here, i'm just looking for tfp in order to build my own skills, so maybe it's fair that I pay the going rate, I just wish I had more luck finding good tfp models to work with Dec 31 11 12:53 pm Link astrographic wrote: I suggest you start a thread in the critique session called something like 'How do I get more TFP models?' Dec 31 11 12:56 pm Link TFP is indeed dead, I don't make prints. TFemailthemtoyou is very alive and well for all talent whether photographer, model, stylist, mua, hair, model, assistant etc. I've done TF one on one with a model, I've done TF with 20+ people at the production. Dec 31 11 12:57 pm Link sgb images wrote: +1 Good point. Even if you have models messaging you everyday for TF* offers its not always worth the time. Dec 31 11 12:58 pm Link Saedcantas, please do mail me,, all help appreciated Hey sorry if I upset anyone, not my intention. And I guess your right, I just need to try harder. And for the record I wouldn't dream of telling anyone they had bad pix, I just ask if they would like a shoot. Maybe I need to change my pix. Thanks all Dec 31 11 12:58 pm Link James Ogilvie wrote: +100 Dec 31 11 12:58 pm Link astrographic wrote: Heres the thing...TFP is not dead. Testing is something many people do. You haven't been on here very long.....give it time build up a portfolio. The more you do the more you network..someone will want to do tf* with you. The thing is some girls think they should be paid when in reality they shouldn't. Some photographers want to be paid when they probably shouldn't. But The "better" tend to work with the "better" if you follow what I am saying....of course its uo individual opinion. The fastest way to get to do TF* in my opinion is to pay some "good" models and rock those shoots, then you may start getting tf rollin in. If you don't want to go about it that way it may just take more time Dec 31 11 12:58 pm Link Jessie Shannon wrote: LOL Dec 31 11 01:00 pm Link astrographic wrote: So do what I do--shoot in your home. You don't need any expensive equipment (take a look at my portfolios, all three of them--Done with hotlights, in most cases some pieces of inexpensive cloth for backgrounds, and a little bit of photoshop) a couple of clip-on lamps and a wide piece of cloth taped to the wall and you're good to go. Dec 31 11 01:03 pm Link i've done trade with paid models. i think you either need to be amazing or get to know them first (such as co-shoots, meet&greets, shootouts, workshops). for my part i don't have a problem getting trade models for clothed shoots (or even lingerie/implied). it's the nudes that are more difficult to get on trade. Dec 31 11 01:08 pm Link |
