Vega- wrote:
Hi there! Quick question re: nude modelling.. Is it advisable to ask for the negotiated payment upfront before the shoot starts in cash?.. This my first paid nude shoot and I am just being careful about how I will be paid.

For some weird reason it's pretty customary to be paid upfront at nude shoots.

Vega- wrote:
Hi there! Quick question re: nude modelling.. Is it advisable to ask for the negotiated payment upfront before the shoot starts in cash?.. This my first paid nude shoot and I am just being careful about how I will be paid.

In perhaps 20 paid nude shoots (not sure why the nudity would matter if it's a freelance shoot, but . . ) I've never paid before the shoot, and never had the model bring it up.  On a couple occasions, we drove separately to another location before I was able to pay her.  Never been an issue.

AndyD10 wrote:
Why should it be any different to any other shoot? ...

+1

Just as with any other shoot, photographer's policies will vary - just talk to them.  Consider that most private contractors invoice and don't get paid at the time their service is provided.

AndyD10 wrote:
No.  Why should it be any different to any other shoot?  Do you not trust the photographer?  In which case, why would you agree to the shoot?

+1

OP, in how many other jobs do you get paid in advance, before doing the work?

Oh, I see, you're going to be nude so that makes all the difference....

/sarcasm



Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

Vega- wrote:
Hi there! Quick question re: nude modelling.. Is it advisable to ask for the negotiated payment upfront before the shoot starts in cash?.. This my first paid nude shoot and I am just being careful about how I will be paid.

I do not and will not work that way..  Makes no difference if it is nude or in a gunny sack!

Vega- wrote:
Hi there! Quick question re: nude modelling.. Is it advisable to ask for the negotiated payment upfront before the shoot starts in cash?.. This my first paid nude shoot and I am just being careful about how I will be paid.

First -- never pose (nude or not) with a photographer whom you don't trust professionally.

My preference as a photographer of the nude is...
     1)  get the model release signed before the first exposure, and
     2)  make payment immediately after the session ends (after the last
          exposure).

I like models to sign the release first, because (among other things) it reminds them not to show a photographer anything they don't want photographed.  I like to pay afterwards for the same reason I pay for dinner at a fancy restaurant after the dinner is done.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
First -- never pose (nude or not) with a photographer whom you don't trust professionally.

My preference as a photographer of the nude is...
     1)  get the llama release signed before the first exposure, and
     2)  make payment immediately after the session ends (after the last
          exposure).

I like llamas to sign the release first, because (among other things) it reminds them not to show a photographer anything they don't want photographed.  I like to pay afterwards for the same reason I pay for dinner at a fancy restaurant after the dinner is done.

I've always paid after, when it was a paid shoot.  Nearly always done the release first.  I want to make sure we've discussed everything.  I can't imagine why a photographer would want to operate under the assumption that he (she) will ignore the llama's wishes and photograph whatever they can, or make anything they can photograph public.  I'm much happier with the llama being comfortable that I understand her limits and respect them, whatever I might "see", or even accidentally photograph.

B R U N E S C I wrote:
+1

OP, in how many other jobs do you get paid in advance, before doing the work?

Oh, I see, you're going to be nude so that makes all the difference....

/sarcasm

Just my $0.02

To be fair the whole modelling industry seems to have a weird rule set of its own comes to payments, so you can never assume anything! I don't think there are many other sectors where two professionals working together expect payment to be handed over in cash the second the job is done. If this was any other line of work the model would be submitting an invoice at the end of the shoot (maybe even a few days later) and getting paid by cheque or bank transfer a few weeks down the line!

MrTim wrote:
To be fair the whole modelling industry seems to have a weird rule set of its own comes to payments! I don't think there are many other sectors where two professionals working together expect payment to be handed over in cash the second the job is done. If this was any other line of work the model would be submitting an invoice at the end of the shoot (maybe even a few days later) and getting paid by cheque or bank transfer a few weeks later!

To be fair, a lot of professionals expect to be paid at the time of service.  Plumbers and electricians for small jobs, the guy who fixed the washer, etc.

When I do tutoring, I get paid in advance; either weeks in advance, or at least at the time they arrive.

Art of the nude wrote:
To be fair, a lot of professionals expect to be paid at the time of service.  Plumbers and electricians for small jobs, the guy who fixed the washer, etc.

When I do tutoring, I get paid in advance; either weeks in advance, or at least at the time they arrive.

That's working with consumers/the public, and certainly not universal (the guy who fixed a leak in our bathroom a couple of years ago actually refused to accept payment on the spot, and insisted on sending an invoice out through the mail). When working "business to business" it almost never happens, even if both are just one man outfits. But maybe it's all different in America.
Anyway though, my point ultimately was that it's never stupid to ask a question like this, because it seems to have its own unique set of "rules" (although it's pretty rare for two people to agree on any of them ).

ShivaKitty wrote:
If someone offers to pay you upfront, ask them to leave the cash on a table, and take it on your way out the door - after completing your shoot, and signing the release.
I had a few people pay me upfront, but honestly, I think it's rude to ask to be paid before you've actually worked.

People who work in "adult" industry - escorts, pro dommes and many exotic dancers - ask to be paid upfront. Modeling is a different industry, with different practices, regardless of whether or not you are nude. Even people shooting explicit video content generally do not get paid until after the scene is completed, and paperwork gone over.

Any type of "demands" imposed on people with whom you shoot can damage your reputation, and eventually lead to a decrease in paid work.

I agree completely with this view and if the model has done an exceptional job, I like to pay a little more than what was originally agreed upon as a gesture of appreciation for a great shoot.

K E E L I N G wrote:
For some weird reason it's pretty customary to be paid upfront at nude shoots.

No it is not. Talent is paid at the end of the shoot. If you do that it is up to you but no one I know pays up front.

hartcons wrote:
some photographers won't pay upfront because they've had models run off early. regardless, it's good to make sure you will get paid at the shoot. some guys will try to do it later by paypal or check and i wouldn't trust that myself. other guys will pay you but not as much as originally agreed upon. partly you hope that you've chosen an honorable photographer.

i've done it both at the beginning and at the end and haven't had any problems or any complaints from models (and MUAs).

This is a real problem, and models are the ones usually getting the short end.

There isn't one good answer, except KNOW who you are dealing with. 

If you take borderline or sketchy jobs, or gigs, then you will have to use higher degrees of caution. 

But it comes down to the shooting time, the release, and the payment.  Some photographers will shoot, and don't want a release and will skip out on payment.  They have the photos, and it's hard for the model to do anything about it.   This has happened to a lot of models I know.  Some of the stories are almost worth making a movie about.  Photographers have left models stranded in airports, in fields, in other states, etc. 

Same with the models.  I screen out 10 or 15 models for each 1 that I invite to show up, and out of those maybe 1 in 5 actually does. 

My "problem" rate is very, very low.   But I really don't care if I shoot with every model.  I want to shoot with models who are *NOT* problems.  That is most important to me.

On the other hand, someone I worked with did pretty much anything she could to get the models to show up, and she had problem after problem.  We never could reconcile our differences on this.  She wanted to shoot any model regardless.  I didn't like the risk.

It's harder for the models, who are usually the ones seeking payment.  In order to get paid, they need to take jobs, and often the paid jobs are because the photographers can't get TF* or trade.  The more money being offered, the more it seems to be so.  (This is in lieu of the photos being for a specific release like a website, etc).  The amounts vary by area, but are usually 2-3x minimum wage or current going minimums (in some areas minimums are a little higher).   Just for round numbers, if local jobs are offering $10/hour for entry/unskilled/register/clerk etc positions, then $30/hour is usually more than enough above to get models.   If you have to go to $75 or $100, then you need to be more cautious as to why that is being paid.   From the models point of view, the $75 job is more desirable than the $30, but the "risk" may not be worth it.  Local economics (and KNOWING your local economics) is important in this.

There have been threads about "red flags" on several systems lately, and people need to be more aware of the red flags, and use the same decision making skills they use when meeting people in general.  There is nothing special or different about the model/photographer, except that it can be more dangerous for EITHER the model or photographer (yeah, I have model horror stories, so do others).

But as a photographer, I can be much more choosy in picking models, than the models can be in picking the photographers.  The one with the money usually has more control.  In general, the photographers have the money (either theirs, or a clients) and the models are applying for jobs to get that money.    That kind of shifts the "risks" in the direction of the models.  Money is a "hook" to bring people in.  Sometimes, it's not all about the photos, and sometimes the money really isn't there. 

I don't think it's getting better, either.  I think it's getting worse.

Scott

K E E L I N G wrote:

For some weird reason it's pretty customary to be paid upfront at nude shoots.

I've never done it that way - always pay at the end when the shoot is done. Never had a model ask about getting the payment before we start.

K E E L I N G wrote:

For some weird reason it's pretty customary to be paid upfront at nude shoots.

I guess this custom hasn't made it's way to the west coast. I've never seen or heard of any difference on when the model gets paid based on whether she's wearing clothes or not. For me, and every other photographer I've spoken with, models always get paid after the session is over. No ifs, ands, or even naked butts.

K E E L I N G wrote:
For some weird reason it's pretty customary to be paid upfront at nude shoots.

95536 wrote:
I guess this custom hasn't made it's way to the west coast. I've never seen or heard of any difference on when the model gets paid based on whether she's wearing clothes or not. For me, and every other photographer I've spoken with, models always get paid after the session is over. No ifs, ands, or even naked butts.

It hasn't made it to the midwest either, from what I can tell.

Nelia wrote:
I have always paid the model in cash at the end of the shoot right after they have signed the model release and I have a clear picture(s) of her holding her identification next to her head / face.

I think payment and release are matters for negotiation / discussion.

I can't imagine waiting until after the shoot to check ID as a matter of policy.  If the ID is missing, or worse, if the model is actually "almost 18" I REALLY want to know at the beginning.  I want to see, and photograph, the ID before I SEE the model nude, let alone take pictures that way.

K E E L I N G wrote:

For some weird reason it's pretty customary to be paid upfront at nude shoots.

I have worked with numerous top art nude models and not one has requested payment upfront. Even the less experienced nude models are fine with being paid after the shoot.

Art of the nude wrote:
I think payment and release are matters for negotiation / discussion.

I can't imagine waiting until after the shoot to check ID as a matter of policy.  If the ID is missing, or worse, if the model is actually "almost 18" I REALLY want to know at the beginning.  I want to see, and photograph, the ID before I SEE the model nude, let alone take pictures that way.

I believe if you read what I said again, I state that I get a picture(s) of the ID for my records.  I always check all IDs before the shoot starts to confirm that the model is of age since most of my shoots involve some sort of nudity.  So I can not see where you make the statement "I can't imagine waiting until after the shoot to check ID as a matter of policy" without knowing all the facts and / or ever attending one of my shoots.

Vega- wrote:
Hi there! Quick question re: nude modelling.. Is it advisable to ask for the negotiated payment upfront before the shoot starts in cash?.. This my first paid nude shoot and I am just being careful about how I will be paid.

My policies don't change based on whether a shoot is nude, completely clothed, or somewhere in between.

I am either happy to work with someone, or I don't work with them at all.  If I have any doubts about the person's intentions or business practices, I just don't book a shoot to begin with.  I can't imagine choosing to work with someone that I didn't trust enough to pay me as agreed at the end of a shoot.

Many people have paid me before the shoot starts.  Oftentimes it has been someone with whom I am working with for the very first time. I think it is something they feel will put my mind at ease, so if it works for them, then I have no problem accepting it before the shoot. Some people tell me it is because they have forgotten to pay a model at the end of the shoot, and they don't want to repeat that.  Whatever works and makes that person comfortable is ok by me.

Art of the nude wrote:

K E E L I N G wrote:
For some weird reason it's pretty customary to be paid upfront at nude shoots.

It hasn't made it to the midwest either, from what I can tell.

If I'm not mistaken Keeling is from Illinois which is right below Michigan - Maybe this practice did originate in the Mid-West??

AndyD10 wrote:
No.  Why should it be any different to any other shoot?  Do you not trust the photographer?  In which case, why would you agree to the shoot?

To be honest, if I was asked for money up front I'd think that the model was treating me as a 'punter' rather than a photographer.  It would not give a good impression.  Or maybe I'm just sensitive

Well you are not the only one who would be considered sensitive.

If one feels that there will be problems with the fee then maybe best to back off from the shoot.

K E E L I N G wrote:

For some weird reason it's pretty customary to be paid upfront at nude shoots.

Not at my nude shoots!!