IrisSwope wrote:
Maybe it was the actual straddling the model in the shot on your front page that made her uncomfortable, not your actual age?

This.
The reason given is often not exactly the reason that may be responsible for a decision. I recall once for example an interviewee being rejected on the grounds of age when the real reason was he smelled of alcohol at second interview - I just happened to be party to overhearing it at a place I once worked.

So I'd be more upfront and reject the op because of that photo. It may be out of context; but there would be fear by many models that it could be problematic in terms of crossing boundaries.

There is simply never a need to straddle a model like that and I think that the real reason the op was rejected; despite the obvious high quality of the photography.

If I am wrong and it's innocent and out of context imagine how it would be possibly perceived over a male model or a very young model; by a photographer of any age. They wouldn't presume to do it and would be concerned about that perception. It doesn't make it ok because we are female and/or older. And the justification for angles and bending fall to pieces don't they?

Some models may be okay with being straddled but most won't be so the rejection is no surprise and doubtful to do with simply age.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:

This.
The reason given is often not exactly the reason that may be responsible for a decision. I recall once for example an interviewee being rejected on the grounds of age when the real reason was he smelled of alcohol at second interview - I just happened to be party to overhearing it at a place I once worked.

So I'd be more upfront and reject the op because of that photo. It may be out of context; but there would be fear by many models that it could be problematic in terms of crossing boundaries.

There is simply never a need to straddle a model like that and I think that the real reason the op was rejected; despite the obvious high quality of the photography.

If I am wrong and it's innocent and out of context imagine how it would be possibly perceived over a male model or a very young model; by a photographer of any age. They wouldn't presume to do it and would be concerned about that perception. It doesn't make it ok because we are female and/or older. And the justification for angles and bending fall to pieces don't they?

Some models may be okay with being straddled but most won't be so the rejection is no surprise and doubtful to do with simply age.

Although I agree with your premise that the straddling might be the reason for the rejection, not age, please read my previous.

Moon Pix Photography wrote:

+1

I can't seem to find the logic in straddling the model like that.  At the very least, stand and zoom!

With that said, I totally agree the model sounds like an immature train-wreck waiting to happen.

The "logic" is in the "look".  You wouldn't get the same image from standing and shooting with a longer lens.  It is subject to camera distance that determines perspective.  This was just more expedient that building a scaffold.

Since this model has shot with Phillip multiple times, she is clearly not bothered by the experience.

Herman Surkis wrote:

Although I agree with your premise that the straddling might be the reason for the rejection, not age, please read my previous.

I did hence my comment about,straddling men or younger subjects for example.
I've never been straddled and would throw a frilly if someone tried. I am a woman not a horse. There is no excuse even though on the face of it your justification seemed reasonable it falls,to pieces unless you'd also think it ok to straddle a male model or a young model. You wouldn't do it and for very good,reason and that also applies to us in fact

Innovative Imagery wrote:
The "logic" is in the "look".  You wouldn't get the same image from standing and shooting with a longer lens.  It is subject to camera distance that determines perspective.  This was just more expedient that building a scaffold.

Since this model has shot with Phillip multiple times, she is clearly not bothered by the experience.

But most would and certainly the model who rejected him.
If a model trusts him to straddle her that may be because she knows and trusts him. You cannot expect to do that from a first booking.

There is no excuse for the angle shot unless you think it ok to straddle a man or young model. It is going to be the same leaning over from above or from the side and if it's not then tough!

Any photographer who expects to do that is out of order. It can be done with the right model one had built up a working trust with but most models wouldn't have it. I have never had anyone try anything like that and I think it not what most of us would expect or be happy with.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
I did hence my comment about,straddling men or younger subjects for example.
I've never been straddled and would throw a frilly if someone tried. I am a woman not a horse. There is no excuse even though on the face of it your justification seemed reasonable it falls,to pieces unless you'd also think it ok to straddle a male model or a young model. You wouldn't do it and for very good,reason and that also applies to us in fact

Straddled to get the shot.

18 +  https://www.modelmayhem.com/portfolio/pic/21841619

AD Leckemby wrote:

Straddled to get the shot.

18 +  https://www.modelmayhem.com/portfolio/pic/21841619

You are NOT SAT astride her

Brooklyn Bridge Images wrote:

A sensationalized movie.
Not an instruction manual on photography.

You get movies where artists are up to all,sorts of shenanigans with their models but that doesnt mean it actually happens as normal procedure on art modelling so models must expect it.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:

You are NOT SAT astride her

That is not what straddle means. Straddle is to sit or stand with your legs apart.

AD Leckemby wrote:

That is not what straddle means. Straddle is to sit or stand with your legs apart.

That is the noun.  The verb has a different definition.

Jerry Nemeth wrote:

That is the noun.  The verb has a different definition.

Not really.

strad·dle  (strdl)
v. strad·dled,
v.tr.
1.
a. To stand or sit with a leg on each side of; bestride

AD Leckemby wrote:

Not really.

strad·dle  (strdl)
v. strad·dled,
v.tr.
1.
a. To stand or sit with a leg on each side of; bestride

If you straddle a model you have a leg each on side of her.

AD Leckemby wrote:
Not really.

strad·dle  (strdl)
v. strad·dled,
v.tr.
1.
a. To stand or sit with a leg on each side of; bestride

Check out the pic on the ops port.
I am referring to this specifically as are others who have raised it.

Standing or bending over nobody would have an issue with. It's the sitting on top of there would be a problem for most models with

I don't get sitting straddled by my dentist or doctor or optician who needs to get a lot closer to me. So there is no excuse for this sitting straddling. Standing straddle doesn't come into it. Just because a bunch of people gave some warped idea that David Hemmings poster depicts some kind of cool behaviour doesn't make it normal or necessary. And ultimately for THIS thread purpose it's irrelevant. The op got rejection without a shadow if a doubt because of that recreated Hemmings pose. And while some models may be ok with it expecting a model to allow it is not ever going to happen. Many of us would reject him on seeing that is all we need to discuss here. It's not a wider discussion on what people would like to be accepted etc it's the way things are. If he'd been standing straddled this thread would never have existed because she'd have shot with him.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:

Check out the pic on the ops port.
I am referring to this specifically as are others who have raised it.

Standing or bending over nobody would have an issue with. It's the sitting on top of there would be a problem for most models with

I did see the image in question. It looks to me like he is trying to get a shot. Sorry, I don't see the perverted intent.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
Check out the pic on the ops port.
I am referring to this specifically as are others who have raised it.

Standing or bending over nobody would have an issue with. It's the sitting on top of there would be a problem for most models with

I don't get sitting straddled by my dentist or doctor or optician who needs to get a lot closer to me. So there is no excuse for this sitting straddling. Standing straddle doesn't come into it. Just because a bunch of people gave some warped idea that David Hemmings poster depicts some kind of cool behaviour doesn't make it normal or necessary. And ultimately for THIS thread purpose it's irrelevant. The op got rejection without a shadow if a doubt because of that recreated Hemmings pose. And while some models may be ok with it expecting a model to allow it is not ever going to happen. Many of us would reject him on seeing that is all we need to discuss here. It's not a wider discussion on what people would like to be accepted etc it's the way things are. If he'd been standing straddled this thread would never have existed because she'd have shot with him.

Sometimes it is necessary to get the just right composition. I have absolutely no problem with it.
The OP can straddle me (if that is what its called on his cover) To get shots like his amazing work any time he is ready. And he is definitely not to old and I wouldn't feel uncomfortable or that it is inappropriate behavior at all.

AD Leckemby wrote:
I did see the image in question. It looks to me like he is trying to get a shot. Sorry, I don't see the perverted intent.

He is not standing. He is sat on top of the model. He is not trying to get a shot he is trying to reacreate a movie scene which is a sensationalised. Someone else has taken that shot for publicity reasons in the mistaken belief it looks cool. It's a macho pose, there is physical contact in the hip to hip area. I'd love to see you face if you came home and found someone sat astride your wife like that and appeared to have a legit excuse for it!

It doesn't matter that you don't see the problem. The problem is for him many models would. That us all that is relevant here it's not a wider issue and I think you may be being purposefully obtuse. Would you sit astride a model to get a shot? If so what about a male model or a younger model? Can you not see how people will see it?

Caitin Bre wrote:

Sometimes it is necessary to get the just right composition. I have absolutely no problem with it.
The OP can straddle me (if that is what its called) To get shots like his amazing work any time he is ready. And he is definitely not to old and I wouldn't feel uncomfortable or that it is inappropriate behavior at all.

That's you.
Obviously a lot of models wouldn't have an issue with it.
But the model the op is talking about I would say did have.
And I would object as would many other models. It isn't necessary so one would have to question motivation. It's,easy to pop the model on a couch or bed if bending is a problem as the dentist does!

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:

I'd love to see you face if you came home and found someone sat astride your wife like that and appeared to have a legit excuse for it!

It doesn't matter that you don't see the problem. The problem is for him many models would. That us all that us,relegated here and I think you nay be being purposefully obtuse. Would you sit astride a model to get a shot? If so what about a male model or a younger model? Can you not see how people will see it?

My wife models. I have no problem with it, her or anything she has done or will do. That is quite a stretch on your part to assume ANYTHING about someone else's relationship. Give it a break.

I am not being obtuse, I just disagree with your post.

In answer to your questions.

1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. I don't pretend to know or "see" what everyone else may "see" or know in any given situation. That would be absurd.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:

But the model the op is talking about I would say did have.

You can't make a statement like this not knowing what that model thinks.... sheesh.
You haven't a clue what is in someone's mind.

I'm out.

AD Leckemby wrote:
My wife models. I have no problem with it, her or anything she has done or will do. That is quite a stretch on your part to assume ANYTHING about someone else's relationship. Give it a break.

I am not being obtuse, I just disagree with your post.

In answer to your questions.

1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. I don't pretend to know or "see" what everyone else may "see" or know in any given situation. That would be absurd.

My post is simply that the model has rejected him because of that shot not his age. If you doubt that you are being purposefully obtuse.

If you sat aside a male model it wouldn't have the same kind of macho feel to it would it?
And what if he was sat aside a fifteen year old? Do I need to say more? You have to be aware if how things will be taken EVEN if they are innocent. In this case a model has judged him not appropriately behaved enough to shoot I believe as with as would many of us. It should not be expected that models would be cool with that because many will not be. And I repeat that's all that is relevant here.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
That's you.
Obviously a lot of models wouldn't have an issue with it.
But the model the op is talking about I would say did have.
And I would object as would many other models. It isn't necessary so one would have to question motivation. It's,easy to pop the model on a couch or bed if bending is a problem as the dentist does!

I don't care if he stood on his head naked to shoot me. I would do it without any second thought. And I'm not the only one.

AD Leckemby wrote:

You can't make a statement like this not knowing what that model thinks.... sheesh.
You haven't a clue what is in someone's mind.

I'm out.

I'd be sure it would put many models off.
We don't know what's in her mind true but using basic empathy I think it a fair assumption. It won't be age thats for sure.

Caitin Bre wrote:
I don't care if he stood on his head naked to shoot me. I would do it without any second thought. And I'm not the only one.

That does not mean a model who finds it inappropriate is unprofessional or something. I couldn't care less if you had sex with him that is your choice. It is not a choice models should have to make as part of their job and neither is being sat astride.

Whether you or I are ok with it is in fact irrelevant. I think it's the,reason she declined to shoot with him. May not be; but certainly many models would be far from ok with it.

So all we should ask ourselves is what us,the more likely reason she declined? His age in that pic or the fact he is sat astride the model? I already cited an example in my opening post of why its,sometimes easier not to engage in appropriate behaviour discussions re the drunken interviewee. Age was given as the reason so not to engage in discussion .

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:

That does not mean a model who finds it inappropriate is unprofessional or something. I couldn't care less if you had sex with him that is your choice. It is not a choice models should have to make as part if their job and neither is being sat astride.

There is a tremendous difference between having sex and being comfortable. You took that way out of text. Even saying it implies an insult towards me. I think. Maybe not. I don't know.
But I won't go to the brig for you so I am going to just back out. Toodiloo

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
He is not standing. He is sat on top of the model. He is not trying to get a shot he is trying to reacreate a movie scene which is a sensationalised. Someone else has taken that shot for publicity reasons in the mistaken belief it looks cool. It's a macho pose, there is physical contact in the hip to hip area. I'd love to see you face if you came home and found someone sat astride your wife like that and appeared to have a legit excuse for it!

It doesn't matter that you don't see the problem. The problem is for him many models would. That us all that is relevant here it's not a wider issue and I think you may be being purposefully obtuse. Would you sit astride a model to get a shot? If so what about a male model or a younger model? Can you not see how people will see it?

I completely agree with you. The OP's positioning is at best questionable. There is no need for it. He could have easily stood. In his defense, he MAY have asked the model first, in which case it may not creep out so many models.

Caitin Bre wrote:
There is a tremendous difference between having sex and being comfortable. You took that way out of text. Even saying it implies an insult towards me. I think. Maybe not. I don't know.
But I won't go to the brig for you so I am going to just back out. Toodiloo

No it wasn't an insult!
I was just saying that you cannot judge industry expectations in a job by what some are prepared to tolerate.
Gauguins Polynesian art models obviously had sex with him but it doesn't mean all art models have to expect it.

So no slur was intended to you at all if you are fine with being sat astride I do not look down on you in any way. I am simply saying many models would not be and that is what this model probably declined the shoot offer. I think it's not necessary for integrity of shoot any more than if a dentist climbed aboard me to try to get a better look at my teeth. Some patients may be fine with that too and would not think anything bad about it but I don't think most would expect it!

Moon Pix Photography wrote:
I completely agree with you. The OP's positioning is at best questionable. There is no need for it. He could have easily stood. In his defense, he MAY have asked the model first, in which case it may not creep out so many models.

I think it's like trophy hunting.
I can defend it in Conservation terms but I don't see the need to flaunt ones 'domination' with those photos and it does nobody any favours. Likewise here. I think even if defensible it has a quality of boast about it. It's like saying to other males look what I get to do. 

I think for example if I was comfortable after many times of shooting - lets say for eg I worked out the photographer was gay so there was nothing sexual in it - I still shouldn't be happy with the shot of him say astride me like I am some conquered quarry; and the shot displayed publicly WOULD be misinterpreted by many. I can defend posing nude because I can tell people they are small minded if they think models romp around with the artists/photographers but that shot could confirm prejudices.  Imagine how it could be perceived by an employer, parents etc. So even if all is innocent; it's at best an unwise and questionable need to display it. Not the resulting image but the sat astride shot itself I mean.

I am pretty sure a model wouldn't expect it on first shoot and certainly wouldn't want that shot on the net.

John Jebbia wrote:
I'm good friends with a model who shoots with the OP several times a year. The way she sings praises of him, I have no doubt in my mind that she would be ok with him sitting on her like that. I imagine the model in the photo you guys are talking about didn't have a problem with it either. You're just jealous cause you can't get away with things like this and that's a fact, Jack! Buncha MM idiots in this thread.

Nobody is questioning the quality of his photography.
The image of him sat astride the model is whether you like it or not what would put many models off shooting with him.
We are not MM idiots because we think that out of order. I didn't for example have to resort to saying only MM idiots would think it appropriate to sit astride a model like that; because I have never met a photographer in the real world who'd do it. I have also stated that if a model has already established a trusting relationship it is possible. However if every photographer thinks they can this to a model on first booking they are in for a shock. The first one will be why some models would be reluctant to shoot with such.
Besides which I have also questioned why the need to depict himself in such a position? He shouldn't be surprised at the resulting declines. We don't have to tolerate such just for good shots there ate many decent photographers who'd fond it inappropriate (except with a model they may have a close and trust based working relationship already established).

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
Whether you or I are ok with it is in fact irrelevant. I think it's the,reason she declined to shoot with him. May not be; but certainly many models would be far from ok with it.

You kinda said it all right here. Who cares what you think. Who cares if you or I think that the model declined because of the straddling pic. We don't know. End of story. No need to go on defending some wild idea you have...

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
Nobody is questioning the quality of his photography.
The image of him sat astride the model is whether you like it or not what would put many models off shooting with him.
We are not MM idiots because we think that out of order. I didn't for example have to resort to saying only MM idiots would think it appropriate to sit astride a model like that; because I have never met a photographer in the real world who'd do it. I have also stated that if a model has already established a trusting relationship it is possible. However if every photographer thinks they can this to a model on first booking they are in for a shock. The first one will be why some models would be reluctant to shoot with such.
Besides which I have also questioned why the need to depict himself in such a position? He shouldn't be surprised at the resulting declines. We don't have to tolerate such just for good shots there ate many decent photographers who'd fond it inappropriate (except with a model they may have a close and trust based working relationship already established).

I'm just happy that I don't have to work with uptight nitwits.

SingleChair wrote:

You kinda said it all right here. Who cares what you think. Who cares if you or I think that the model declined because of the straddling pic. We don't know. End of story. No need to go on defending some wild idea you have...

It's not a wild idea.
It's one many here have stated.

I tell you who should care what I think is photographers who want to book models who may reject based on such behaviour publicly displayed as though it's normal. I don't want photographers sat astride me thanks or even if I had created a good trust that I was ok with it then displaying it publicly like a trophy. Both those would make many models decline even IF this one has some other reason.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
It's not a wild idea.
It's one many here have stated.

I tell you who should care what I think is photographers who want to book models who may reject based on such behaviour publicly displayed as though it's normal. I don't want photographers sat astride me thanks or even if I had created a good trust that I was ok with it then displaying it publicly like a trophy. Both those would make many models decline even IF this one has some other reason.

Only uptight nitwits would decline. No big loss, really..

John Jebbia wrote:
I'm just happy that I don't have to work with uptight nitwits.

I'm happy I don't have to work with idiots who think models can be subjected to anything. We don't. I think that the people complaining about what I have said appear furthermore to be getting substantially more uptight about it than I.

And models can work with whoever they want without assigning a reason or taking personal abuse when they give reasons why.

I don't think any photographer or artist I have worked with has ever said I'm uptight because I'm not. But I'd turn this guy down flat but tell him honestly why. This is why incidentally a lot of models don't reply to photographers emails because if they decline they get that kind of abuse and the ' do you know who I am' crap.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
I'm happy I don't have to work with idiots who think models can be subjected to anything. We don't. I think that the people complaining about what I have said appear furthermore to be getting substantially more uptight about it than I.

And models can work with whoever they want without assigning a reason.

You seem to have a bigger problem with that image than the model who's in it being sat on. Don't be a busybody.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:

It's not a wild idea.
It's one many here have stated.

I tell you who should care what I think is photographers who want to book models who may reject based on such behaviour publicly displayed as though it's normal. I don't want photographers sat astride me thanks or even if I had created a good trust that I was ok with it then displaying it publicly like a trophy. Both those would make many models decline even IF this one has some other reason.

I suppose its just that you seem to have made yourself the ambassador for the ever illusive "many models". Its an argument with no evidence, many models? according to who? what percentage of all models were polled to get these results?

Point is this is simply your perspective. You have yours, I have mine, everyone else has theirs. There is no reason to insist so fervently on your world view when you really have no data (besides anecdotal) to back you up.

And at then end of the day the OP gets to decide whats on his profile, clearly he is doing a ok. If a few immature people want to get their knickers in a twist its clearly not affecting him much!

SingleChair wrote:
I suppose its just that you seem to have made yourself the ambassador for the ever illusive "many models". Its an argument with no evidence, many models? according to who? what percentage of all models were polled to get these results?

Point is this is simply your perspective. You have yours, I have mine, everyone else has theirs. There is no reason to insist so fervently on your world view when you really have no data (besides anecdotal) to back you up.

And at then end of the day the OP gets to decide whats on his profile, clearly he is doing a ok. If a few immature people want to get their knickers in a twist its clearly not affecting him much!

The evidence is in the existence of this thread: he had a model decline him. It's not the reason given but I think he knows that. Remember we are nit discussing all the models who HAVE shot with him; he has asked about the one who wouldn't. As a model who wouldn't either my testimony is what one could call qualitative data. Unless you are an anthropologist or sociologist you may be unfamiliar with the quality of such contextual data.

I am not in a twist about it neither are others saying the same : he is and you guys are! Get real here we aren't saying it's terrible we are saying it's likely it would put models off - others would likely be fine with it ONCE they know he is genuinely doing it for the shot if that's the case I am not speaking for all models at all just myself in the capacity of a formerly full time pro model working across a range of genres who would reject him on the basis of the image he invited us to look at . I'd be honest though not talk about his age. And I shouldn't have to put up with personal abuse because I am honestly answering. Maybe you'd have more models answering in forums generally if they could speak frankly without that kind of abuse. I have posed nude in front of thousands of men and women it's hardly the mark of an uptight model! and I certainly don't think I am immature just because I am not gullible enough to accept a stranger needing to be sat astride me for shoot integrity it's nonsense. The model in question may have been immature if age was the real reason of course; I just think it unlikely.