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Photographer
DougBPhoto
Posts: 38,229
Portland, Oregon, US


Cole Morrison wrote:
someone wanted to style me as a cowgirl....................

i have a mohawk. my portfolio is fashion and art nudes.
not only do i not even remotely have a cowgirl look, but it wouldnt fit in or benefit my portfolio in the slightest.

But I thought it would make for an interesting juxtaposition!! tongue


lol

Jul 24 12 09:40 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Laura UnBound
Posts: 27,321
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Dagger133 wrote:

Go easy there RME, we are discussing the merit of tacky, cliché images with a very beautiful woman who chooses to represent herself to the world with an avatar based on a rip off of a "Happy Days" rerun tomboy look, pulling on her chewing gum. roll

None of that eye rolling bothered to answer my question of how exploring cliches and tacky imagery the rest of the group is doing is helpful to a person either trying to develop technical skill or personal style.

I dont personally recall the episode of happy days that looked at all like my avatar, id be genuinely interested in it though. Also interesting that Im a "tomboy" just for being dressed for once lol

Jul 24 12 10:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Calypso Moon
Posts: 848
Banning, California, US


Art of the nude wrote:
When I was very new; I shot a pregnant model, in a bikini and tennis shoes, with a sword, in a river. 

Sigh.

It was ALL her idea.

(Different thread, but, that's also over done.  Even if I'm the only one ever.  Once is too much.)

This made me laugh.

Jul 24 12 10:49 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Calypso Moon
Posts: 848
Banning, California, US


In answer to the original question, I've had some weird offers, but the weirdest generally have to do with the photographer also somehow being a model, and wanting to both take the pictures and be in them buck naked.  Seemed a little suspicious to me... big_smile
Jul 24 12 10:58 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Daeda1us
Posts: 1,067
Little Rock, Arkansas, US


Laura UnBound wrote:
Ive gotten the typical array of horrible gigs.

If you can find it in the childs costume section of the dollar store, Ive worn it. most of it for no apparent reason. Just "we're in the middle of the woods, here put this neon orange feather boa and some mardigras beads and these shutter shades on, look glamourous over on that rock, this makes SO MUCH sense"

Angel wings
Fairy wings
Posing with stuffed animals
Fake flowers, with and without a glass of wine I didn't drink
Lots and lots and lots of fabric
Holding old cameras
A handful of horrid girl-girl shoots, usually with girls 10 years older, a foot and a half taller, and twice as big as I am (in other words, it looked like a mother and her small child naked together)
All the typically awful poses
Caution tape
Swords
Guns

I have attempted a couple of sword shots.  Never got anything I really liked, but I blame that on my abilities, not the model or the sword.
But I am curious as to why it is considered "tacky"?
Personally, I think many swords are beautiful. 
(not talking about the 39.99 plastic handled, cheap steel, POSs.  But actual swords.  Like the type you would see in museums or good quality replicas of movie swords.)

A well made sword is a work of art in itself.
I have lost myself for uncounted hours in the Met, drooling over their medieval arms and armor exhibits.

And I love the poses in martial arts weapons katas, including swords.

It is my opinion, and nothing more, but if a picture with a sword is "tacky", it is not because the sword is in the picture.

My 2 cents, YMMV

PS, not trying to annoy you, Laura.  Love your work!

Jul 24 12 11:03 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Daeda1us
Posts: 1,067
Little Rock, Arkansas, US


Apparently  the "weirdest offer" I have ever made to a model is...

"Let's meet at a conveniently located coffee house to discuss the shoot and kick around ideas."

After that comment, the discussion was dead.  *shrug*
I thought I was being polite.

But given the reaction, I assume it is just "weird".  I dont offer any longer and everything goes smoothly.
Every group has its social rules.  Figuring them out can be a bit tricksy sometimes!

My 2 cents, YMMV
Jul 24 12 11:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
The Dasha
Posts: 80
Mission Viejo, California, US


Wear a bikini in the bathroom... No, way
Jul 24 12 11:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DougBPhoto
Posts: 38,229
Portland, Oregon, US


The Dasha wrote:
Wear a bikini in the bathroom... No, way

When you go to the beach, and wear a bikini, where do you go to relieve yourself, if not the bathroom? wink


(I actually agree with you, but was hoping those thinking that was a great idea would not catch on!!)

Jul 24 12 11:11 pm  Link  Quote 
Artist/Painter
sdgillis
Posts: 2,436
Portland, Oregon, US


Cole Morrison wrote:
someone wanted to style me as a cowgirl....................

not only do i not even remotely have a cowgirl look, but it wouldnt fit in or benefit my portfolio in the slightest.

llama

Jul 24 12 11:17 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
The Dasha
Posts: 80
Mission Viejo, California, US


DougBPhoto wrote:
When you go to the beach, and wear a bikini, where do you go to relieve yourself, if not the bathroom? wink


(I actually agree with you, but was hoping those thinking that was a great idea would not catch on!!)

Yep, I go to the bathroom with the suit on, but I wouldn't shoot wearing a bikini in a bathroom. Doesn't look good to me and DEFINITELY not my style.

Jul 24 12 11:23 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Laura UnBound
Posts: 27,321
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Daeda1us wrote:

I have attempted a couple of sword shots.  Never got anything I really liked, but I blame that on my abilities, not the model or the sword.
But I am curious as to why it is considered "tacky"?
Personally, I think many swords are beautiful. 
(not talking about the 39.99 plastic handled, cheap steel, POSs.  But actual swords.  Like the type you would see in museums or good quality replicas of movie swords.)

A well made sword is a work of art in itself.
I have lost myself for uncounted hours in the Met, drooling over their medieval arms and armor exhibits.

And I love the poses in martial arts weapons katas, including swords.

It is my opinion, and nothing more, but if a picture with a sword is "tacky", it is not because the sword is in the picture.

My 2 cents, YMMV

PS, not trying to annoy you, Laura.  Love your work!

Not annoyed. As I said earlier, everything cliche COULD and probably has been done well at least once before.

A sword COULD be used very well in a detailed concept with all the appropriate supporting factors (location, other props, wardrobe/hair/makeup/effects, etc).

When youve just got a naked girl on a plain grey backdrop and you hand her a sword and go "pose with this" youve got a naked girl attempting to look artsy or sexy with a sword she knows nothing about (how do I hold it? what is a common "fighting stance" to use with this type of weapon? Which hand should it be in? Which way does it face? most of the time I dont have a clue as to the origin of said sword and what someone traditionally trained with it would look like compared to what Im being asked to do) on a boring backdrop. Theres no "theme" theres no concept theres no story theres no context. Its just boobs and weapons. Which begs the question: Why?. Thats when it gets tacky.

You are right in saying its not tacky BECAUSE OF the sword. Its tacky because of everything else that is essential to making a good image being missing. Its tacky to go "I have nothing else to make this a compelling image, what the hell, lets do it anyway". But I would have had a much shorter list if I said "everything is tacky when you do it wrong". Just about everything on that list is USUALLY done really wrong wink

Jul 24 12 11:36 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Laura UnBound
Posts: 27,321
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


The Dasha wrote:
Wear a bikini in the bathroom... No, way

Ive been asked to wear clothing that I would normally wear to go clubbing out in the woods, in the bathroom, in a basement, in the river, etc etc. Bikinis in strange places a person would never wear a bikini. Heels are even more fun, I absolutely wear stilettos when I go naked rock climbing. All sorts of situationally-inappropriate dress.

Jul 24 12 11:38 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Kevin Connery
Posts: 16,834
El Segundo, California, US


Moderator Note!

RME Digital Photography wrote:
But you have some stuff that's a little cliche...

All Yours Photography wrote:
This is not my photo.

Dagger133 wrote:
[...we are discussing the merit of tacky, cliché images with a very beautiful woman who chooses to represent herself to the world with an avatar based on a rip off of a "Happy Days" rerun tomboy look, pulling on her chewing gum. roll

No unsolicited critiques. If someone has not asked for your critical opinion of their work, please do not give one.

Do not post anything on the Site that degrades or insults other users or their work.

Jul 24 12 11:43 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Dagger133
Posts: 354
Kitchener, Ontario, Canada


Laura UnBound wrote:
None of that eye rolling bothered to answer my question of how exploring cliches and tacky imagery the rest of the group is doing is helpful to a person either trying to develop technical skill or personal style.

Let me try and make as brief an explanation of this as possible. If we don't explore what others have tried before, we really have no basis by which to judge our own work. with out these lets say benchmarks we will have trouble determining if our own direction is avant guard or just plane bat shit crazy. and you know what I like the phallic tension that a sword or gun brings to an image of the female form; some people like teddy bears; if you feel that is tacky that is a label that you bring to your own narrow viewpoint.

Jul 24 12 11:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
The Dasha
Posts: 80
Mission Viejo, California, US


Laura UnBound wrote:

Ive been asked to wear clothing that I would normally wear to go clubbing out in the woods, in the bathroom, in a basement, in the river, etc etc. Bikinis in strange places a person would never wear a bikini. Heels are even more fun, I absolutely wear stilettos when I go naked rock climbing. All sorts of situationally-inappropriate dress.

There are wrong places for specific clothes. Some photographers should understand that.

Jul 24 12 11:59 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Dan Brady
Posts: 609
Perth, Western Australia, Australia


Venessa M Baez wrote:
Covered in fake blood, in a bathing suit, while holding their pet snake.


No pay.

no dice

Jul 25 12 01:07 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jeffrey M Fletcher
Posts: 4,344
Asheville, North Carolina, US


Kamarose wrote:
I have not looked at your portfolio, so this is not a comment on your work, but...

"Some people found Manet tacky and some people find my work tacky therefore my work must be edgy and awesome like Manet's was" is not a very sound line of reasoning.

The image was posted as part of the thread and a general discussion regarding the role of bad taste and artistic merit. The point I'm making is that, especially in modern art, assaults on good taste are relatively common and can be considered an integral part of modernism. I think a fairly convincing argument can be made that without some transgressions against taste art is a denatured and purely decorative category.

I can also find on this site any number of works that offend my sensibilities, ranging from vulgar atrocities to lame cliches. I don't, however, find my own personal taste to be a reliable guideline as to the artistic merit of any image under consideration and, as stated find critical constructions of the bad taste/artistic merit dichotomy to be lacking in an understanding of the development and possible roles of art in the modern world.

As for my own work, I don't usually attempt  the sort of provocations of banal vulgarity and humor that can be seen in the Manet.

How do you view your work in relation to issues of taste?

Jul 25 12 06:05 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RME Digital Photography
Posts: 267
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US


Dagger133 wrote:

Go easy there RME, we are discussing the merit of tacky, cliché images with a very beautiful woman who chooses to represent herself to the world with an avatar based on a rip off of a "Happy Days" rerun tomboy look, pulling on her chewing gum. roll

+1

I like Laura's portfolio.  I think she has some great work in there.  My objection was to her saying that cliche photos are tacky and "utter trash".  She kind of corrected herself by saying they are only trash if they are done badly.  But she clearly has a list of concepts she feels are beneath her as an artist and should be beneath everyone.

As a student photographer I personally have no issue with cliche images that I like.  I spend hours in class looking at other peoples work.  There are some concepts on her list I don't like and wouldn't do.  But I think she was making some huge generalizations about everyone's work.  I guess I just don't generalize categories of work like that and instead form an opinion on a case by case basis.

Jul 25 12 06:16 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,868
Olivet, Michigan, US


The Dasha wrote:
Wear a bikini in the bathroom... No, way

Sometimes, it's all in the execution.  I shot a llama, at her suggestion, in just panties, in the bathroom. (Both links 18 )
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6128/5990 … 6448_o.jpg

That lead to shooting another in just a "wife beater", in the bathroom;
http://www.modelmayhem.com/portfolio/pi … 5#27646075

Jul 25 12 06:47 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Victoria Elle
Posts: 452
New York, New York, US


Jeffrey M Fletcher wrote:

The image was posted as part of the thread and a general discussion regarding the role of bad taste and artistic merit. The point I'm making is that, especially in modern art, assaults on good taste are relatively common and can be considered an integral part of modernism. I think a fairly convincing argument can be made that without some transgressions against taste art is a denatured and purely decorative category.

I can also find on this site any number of works that offend my sensibilities, ranging from vulgar atrocities to lame cliches. I don't, however, find my own personal taste to be a reliable guideline as to the artistic merit of any image under consideration and, as stated find critical constructions of the bad taste/artistic merit dichotomy to be lacking in an understanding of the development and possible roles of art in the modern world.

As for my own work, I don't usually attempt  the sort of provocations of banal vulgarity and humor that can be seen in the Manet.

How do you view your work in relation to issues of taste?

Victorine Meurent (the face of the nude woman in Le Déjeuner sur L'herbe; her body is Manet's wife's body and is significantly fatter than Meurent's) was a professional artist's model who was paid for her time.  She was also a professional painter.  However, you may want to read this short article about her & how she has been characterized by Manet's biographers:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/ … omen.manet
and judge whether her appearance in Manet's works was "helpful" to her "portfolio".

The point that most models in this thread are making is that the "worst" ideas pitched to them don't take the model into consideration at all: that a lot of photographers seem to think we should be happy to have pictures taken of us doing whatever, for free, because *they* say it's art.

Jul 25 12 09:14 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RME Digital Photography
Posts: 267
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US


The Dasha wrote:

There are wrong places for specific clothes. Some photographers should understand that.

Are you saying that all photographs should always have situationally appropriate dress?  I think I'm going to have to disagree with that.  What is your reasoning?  There are plenty of awesome photos where the dress (or lack of dress) is not appropriate to the real life situation.  Why would we limit ourselves to real life?

Jul 25 12 09:54 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Regina Salpagarova
Posts: 11
Milan, Lombardy, Italy


tfp NN commercial ..
Jul 25 12 10:08 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Matt Schmidt
Posts: 3,680
Greensboro, North Carolina, US


"Worst idea a photographer has ever pitched . . . "

". . . Hey, and don't forget to show up . . ."
Jul 25 12 10:10 am  Link  Quote 
Model
-Jen-
Posts: 46,822
Howell, Michigan, US


Laura UnBound wrote:
Ive gotten the typical array of horrible gigs.

If you can find it in the childs costume section of the dollar store, Ive worn it. most of it for no apparent reason. Just "we're in the middle of the woods, here put this neon orange feather boa and some mardigras beads and these shutter shades on, look glamourous over on that rock, this makes SO MUCH sense"

Angel wings
Fairy wings
Posing with stuffed animals
Fake flowers, with and without a glass of wine I didn't drink
Lots and lots and lots of fabric
Holding old cameras
A handful of horrid girl-girl shoots, usually with girls 10 years older, a foot and a half taller, and twice as big as I am (in other words, it looked like a mother and her small child naked together)
All the typically awful poses
Caution tape
Swords
Guns

*scoffs*

pfft - FINE!

Jul 25 12 10:14 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,868
Olivet, Michigan, US


Regina Salpagarova wrote:
tfp NN commercial ..

NN?

Although "TF" offers for commercial clients annoy me, whether it's a llama, photographer, or both that they want.

Jul 25 12 10:16 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
RME Digital Photography
Posts: 267
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US


Laura UnBound wrote:

Ive been asked to wear clothing that I would normally wear to go clubbing out in the woods, in the bathroom, in a basement, in the river, etc etc. Bikinis in strange places a person would never wear a bikini. Heels are even more fun, I absolutely wear stilettos when I go naked rock climbing. All sorts of situationally-inappropriate dress.

Laura,  I think I get your point but you can't honestly be saying that all photographs should always be dress appropriate to the real life situation.  Topless girl walking down the street is not situation appropriate yet could be a great photo.  And i believe that there are times when irony in the dress choice is actually called for, not only in art but in advertising as well.  I think it depends on the intent of the photograph.

Jul 25 12 10:20 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Alba Felix
Posts: 1
Scottsdale, Arizona, US


Rik Image wrote:
Slightly off topic but related to Paige's post above.
I had a lady on here wanting me to TF for her online clothing store.
Using my studio, shooting over a dozen models, with hundreds of variations, then retouching the entire shoot to her spec's.
Lol the funniest part about it was that she seemed offended when I asked for a minimal rate on the project.
Some people must be on drugs or something.

People doesn't understand is a living not a hobby...

Jul 25 12 10:26 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Coast2Coast Imagery
Posts: 23
Enterprise, Alabama, US


There's a person here in my state that does multiple events (schools, runway events, etc). Anyway, everytime the person has an event they always post a casting call for tfp work for photographers, never paid. And a usual, I'm sure that person is still getting all of their images for free.
Jul 25 12 10:28 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DougBPhoto
Posts: 38,229
Portland, Oregon, US


-Jen- wrote:

*scoffs*

pfft - FINE!

*like*

Jul 25 12 11:03 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Little Alice
Posts: 3,803
Chicago, Illinois, US


I've gotten some real special gems.

My most infamously special request:
http://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=551365

Photographers who refuse to tell me their idea via email or message, that they MUST tell me over the phone because it's so mind-blowing that they need to keep it secret and make me swear I won't tell otherwise their idea will get stolen.  Usually it's something like "I'm going to shoot a series of models wearing black shoes!" or hats, or something else general.

The one I get fairly often involves crazy amounts of money (anywhere from $500-$5,000) to touch, rub, suck, fuck my feet.  When I say no they often get indignant and say "But it's just your feet!"

Nudes in public (as in near roads or shopping centers where we WILL get caught).  The worst was being asked to pose nude in front of a Hooters.  When I said no he said "Well how about in front of Best Buy?"

Nudes or lingerie out in the snow, crappy lighting and crappy composition.

There was a photographer who wanted to do nudes, and his portfolio looked nice, so I answered his casting call.  In my initial message I included my limitation (no labia).  He got insulted and sent me an angry message back saying "How dare you!  I don't shoot such garbage!  blah blah blah."  I told him that I was merely being upfront and that I hoped we could work together since he seemed on the same page as me.  But then he sent me a message saying "Well obviously you didn't look at my work, I REQUIRE full frontal in all my photos!"  (Because that makes tons of sense)

A photographer said he wanted to do a shoot where I was a sushi human platter, but if I wouldn't do the shoot with him to at least send me photos of the idea because "art is meant to be shared."

I'm sure there are plenty of other dumb ideas that have been thrown my way, I just don't remember them at the moment.
Jul 25 12 11:32 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Little Alice
Posts: 3,803
Chicago, Illinois, US


http://photos.modelmayhem.com/photos/090813/01/4a83ca0e93206_m.jpg

Laura UnBound wrote:
Why would you offer up someone else's work as "worst idea ever"? Im pretty sure they call that unsolicited critiquing, and very poor taste on your part hmm

I actually like that photo, Tattoo23 does a lot of fun tongue-in-cheek work.

Jul 25 12 11:54 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jack North
Posts: 855
Benicia, California, US


Rik Image wrote:
Slightly off topic but related to Paige's post above.
I had a lady on here wanting me to TF for her online clothing store.
Using my studio, shooting over a dozen models, with hundreds of variations, then retouching the entire shoot to her spec's.
Lol the funniest part about it was that she seemed offended when I asked for a minimal rate on the project.
Some people must be on drugs or something.

Unfortunately, some people would do this. She probably found someone

Jul 25 12 12:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Little Alice
Posts: 3,803
Chicago, Illinois, US


Some more that I remembered:

Wear fairy wings, hold a katana, wear some sort of greenish brownish clothing, and the photographer will photoshop in some sort of foresty background.

A naughty nun shoot that involved object penetration and sucking on a large crucifix.  When I said "No, I'm Catholic and I find this really offensive."  The photographer responded with "Perfect!  Then it will be more authentic!"

"i rly like ur edgy look!  i wnt 2 do a shot wit u wearn dat edgy stuff u wear wit edgy mkup n make it real dark n edgy."  It took all the self control I had not to punch my computer screen when I read this one, between how many times "edgy" was written and the horrible grammar I was at my limit for my daily stupid intake.

A photographer asked me to buy new outfits similar to some I already had.  He insisted I buy new ones though because he wanted things that had never been shot before.  These were Victorian style dresses that cost between $400-$800, and he wanted several.  Oh and of course the shoot was TF with no monetary help from him to acquire said dresses.
Jul 25 12 12:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jerry Nemeth
Posts: 27,667
Dearborn, Michigan, US


The Dasha wrote:
Wear a bikini in the bathroom... No, way

Models that I've photographed in the bathroom have always been nude.   smile

Jul 25 12 12:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jerry Nemeth
Posts: 27,667
Dearborn, Michigan, US


Laura UnBound wrote:
Ive gotten the typical array of horrible gigs.

If you can find it in the childs costume section of the dollar store, Ive worn it. most of it for no apparent reason. Just "we're in the middle of the woods, here put this neon orange feather boa and some mardigras beads and these shutter shades on, look glamourous over on that rock, this makes SO MUCH sense"

Angel wings
Fairy wings
Posing with stuffed animals
Fake flowers, with and without a glass of wine I didn't drink
Lots and lots and lots of fabric
Holding old cameras
A handful of horrid girl-girl shoots, usually with girls 10 years older, a foot and a half taller, and twice as big as I am (in other words, it looked like a mother and her small child naked together)
All the typically awful poses
Caution tape
Swords
Guns

I think that this girl-girl shot is a little better.   smile

18+
http://www.modelmayhem.com/portfolio/pi … 9#27246619

Jul 25 12 01:09 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Coast2Coast Imagery
Posts: 23
Enterprise, Alabama, US


Little Alice wrote:
Some more that I remembered:

A naughty nun shoot that involved object penetration and sucking on a large crucifix.  When I said "No, I'm Catholic and I find this really offensive."  The photographer responded with "Perfect!  Then it will be more authentic!"

WTH??? Wow............Too much!

Jul 25 12 01:10 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jerry Nemeth
Posts: 27,667
Dearborn, Michigan, US


-Jen- wrote:

*scoffs*

pfft - FINE!

How about a sister-sister?    smile

Jul 25 12 01:13 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Laura UnBound
Posts: 27,321
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


-Jen- wrote:

*scoffs*

pfft - FINE!

Its not my fault I look thirteen! sad

Jul 25 12 03:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
The Dasha
Posts: 80
Mission Viejo, California, US


RME Digital Photography wrote:

Are you saying that all photographs should always have situationally appropriate dress?  I think I'm going to have to disagree with that.  What is your reasoning?  There are plenty of awesome photos where the dress (or lack of dress) is not appropriate to the real life situation.  Why would we limit ourselves to real life?

I see. But that's what I usually prefer in my portfolio. I wouldn't consider it limiting myself, I just choose what I want.......

Jul 26 12 04:45 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jeffrey M Fletcher
Posts: 4,344
Asheville, North Carolina, US


VikyL wrote:

Victorine Meurent (the face of the nude woman in Le Déjeuner sur L'herbe; her body is Manet's wife's body and is significantly fatter than Meurent's) was a professional artist's model who was paid for her time.  She was also a professional painter.  However, you may want to read this short article about her & how she has been characterized by Manet's biographers:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/ … omen.manet
and judge whether her appearance in Manet's works was "helpful" to her "portfolio".

The point that most models in this thread are making is that the "worst" ideas pitched to them don't take the model into consideration at all: that a lot of photographers seem to think we should be happy to have pictures taken of us doing whatever, for free, because *they* say it's art.

I'd never read the article and you are right, it is a neglected viewpoint that adds to the story. Thank you so much.

Jul 26 12 05:30 am  Link  Quote 
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