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Forums > General Industry > 18+ TFP. Why? Search   Reply
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Photographer
Christopher Carter
Posts: 7,562
Indianapolis, Indiana, US


DVSmith wrote:
For some people, making art is more important than making money.

And those people typically end up selling their cameras to pay rent. Unless they have a 9-5.

Just saying.

Jan 09 13 12:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
IIP
Posts: 413
Lumberton, New Jersey, US


Some of the best nude shoots I've had were TF, you can take your time to do trial and error and ultimately learn something new. Often time’s paid models time is restricted and doesn’t allow for much exploration; recalling my early days in photography I didn’t find it to be as beneficial using paid models to develop a new concept.

I truly believe that this craft needs trade for creativity to thrive. That said, I regularly negotiate pay with professional models as everyone has bills to pay.
Jan 09 13 12:36 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ASYLUM - Photo
Posts: 38,283
Washington, District of Columbia, US


afplcc wrote:

I've heard that.  Hell--I'll do crazy things for good cookies.

Ed

Woah, woah, Ed. Keep your kilt on. yikes

Jan 09 13 02:12 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
MKPhoto
Posts: 5,664
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada


SweetGirlyGirl wrote:
This is for the models.
Why are so many models doing 18+ shoots for TFP?

I am not a model, but am commenting "on behalf" of three wink

"Hi,

I love your portfolio. Some images are amazing and I really like lingerie in blue. I am OK with nudes. Can we setup something?
"

"Hi,

My name is ...., and I'd like to be tied and photographed. A good friend .... told me about your work and I love it"

"Hi MKPhoto,

I need some quick head and portfolio shots but am broke and can't pay. I am very flexible, did gymnastics when I was young and some jazz and tap. I could do some  implied dance images if you want."

Am I going to say - "Yes, I will pay you ZZZ$ for the shoot"? Models just both need and want images.

Jan 09 13 02:32 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Toni Danielle Milan
Posts: 82
San Antonio, Texas, US


Emily Hayworth wrote:
Depends on the llama.  Generally, people do TFP to improve their portfolio.  If they want to make money as a nude llama, but don't have any good nude photos, it makes sense to do a trade shoot to get some good images that will make that person more marketable and therefore generate more money in the future.

Some people just like llamaing nude, and don't care about the pay.

She hit the nail on the thumb.

Jan 09 13 03:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art Of Exposure
Posts: 11
Winchester, New Hampshire, US


SweetGirlyGirl wrote:
I've been getting paid to shoot nudes for 5 years, but now since so many models are willing to de robe for free, it's getting more difficult to continue finding work.

The most talented model that I shot nudes with was TFP and she was actually the one who contacted me to set up the session. I have also paid models for nude shoots, but I'm not of the opinion that any model should be paid just for taking off their clothes. Modeling is modeling regardless of the costume or lack thereof. A talented model is worth paying whether it be a clothed or a nude shoot. It is just like a photographer expecting to be paid just for owning a camera. Talent and ability are worth paying for, but simply removing one's clothes requires little of either.

You may still be in your prime, but even Sports Illistrated and Victoria's Secret models eventually get replaced by newer, younger models at some point.

Also, if you are finding that the number of paid offers coming your way is dropping off it might be time to examine your rates to determine whether an adjustment might balance out the supply/demand ratio once again.

Jan 09 13 03:26 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Sophistocles
Posts: 21,320
Seattle, Washington, US


Scarlett Renee wrote:
My first nudes are going to be TF, because the photographer is both a friend and a-f$cking-mazing... and we have plans for them... tongue tongue tongue

Well, we're not friends, but we are in the same area... and I'd shoot trade nudes with you wink

Jan 09 13 04:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Ed Woodson Photography
Posts: 2,644
Savannah, Georgia, US


Interesting that the OP never contributed anything else to the thread.
Jan 09 13 05:31 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
291
Posts: 11,911
SEQUOIA NATIONAL PARK, California, US


my personal feeling is tf* is an adventure without a line of demarcation.  if nudity fits the moment then fine.  if it doesn't that's fine too.

with that, if the collaboration includes a statement to the effect any nudity must be paid then i take that as not working within the moment and a limitation of the adventure.  that has nothing to do with the aspect of nudity, it has everything to do with stifling the process of possibility purely on the unintended basis of economics.
Jan 09 13 05:35 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DEREX Art
Posts: 230
Paterson, New Jersey, US


MelissaAnn  wrote:
For the same reason models do TFP for images that aren't 18+.

To build a portfolio of great 18+ images, so they are more likely to get hired for 18+ projects.

Some like shooting 18+ nude images simply for the art, and don't do it for the money.

Is this hard to believe or something?

+1

Jan 09 13 05:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Kaley King
Posts: 1,027
Jefferson City, Missouri, US


Sometimes it's a good trade for other pics too.  I need better bikini pictures, but don't  have the $$$ to fork out...I found a photographer who did great bikini pics, and nudes...I figured a lot of girls would do bikini pictures on TF...so I offered up bikini and nudes for TF.
Jan 09 13 05:53 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
E e v a
Posts: 1,723
Nashville, Tennessee, US


You assume as if every model needs money. Some have jobs that pay well already and just like to model for fun
Jan 09 13 06:01 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
salvatori.
Posts: 3,324
State College, Pennsylvania, US


When a photographer looks out for all the poor models out there, he's called a white knight.

What do you call a model who looks out for other models when they are working tf and getting taken advantage of?
Jan 09 13 06:04 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Svend
Posts: 25,106
Broken Arrow, Oklahoma, US


*headdesk*

Not this again.
Jan 09 13 06:04 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jorge Kreimer
Posts: 1,944
Los Angeles, California, US


I've been contacted by models to do TF nudes. I guess they liked my work.

Some have said they had never modeled nude in this way before, and they seemed happy. smile
Jan 09 13 06:41 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
LcD
Posts: 27
Astoria, New York, US


salvatori. wrote:
When a photographer looks out for all the poor models out there, he's called a white knight.

What do you call a model who looks out for other models when they are working tf and getting taken advantage of?

a bitch? lol!

Jan 09 13 06:50 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,748
Olivet, Michigan, US


SweetGirlyGirl wrote:
This is for the models.
Why are so many models doing 18+ shoots for TFP?

Look at the portfolios of these models.  See if you can recognize a pattern.  (Hint, they'e REALLY good.  These models are NOT selling "I'll get naked" but rather, "I am a skilled nude model.")

Emily Hayworth wrote:
Depends on the model.  Generally, people do TFP to improve their portfolio.  If they want to make money as a nude model, but don't have any good nude photos, it makes sense to do a trade shoot to get some good images that will make that person more marketable and therefore generate more money in the future.

Some people just like modeling nude, and don't care about the pay.
MelissaAnn  wrote:
For the same reason models do TFP for images that aren't 18+.

To build a portfolio of great 18+ images, so they are more likely to get hired for 18+ projects.

Some like shooting 18+ nude images simply for the art, and don't do it for the money.

Is this hard to believe or something?
MyrnaByrna wrote:
Because I am not in it for the money.
Laura UnBound wrote:
unless what the photographer wants/needs is someone with experience. At which point you need to be able to show that you have experience worth paying for.
Damianne wrote:
Because just being naked does not automagically qualify one to be paid, you have to have the portfolio to show that you can pose (which is really difficult naked, you gotta control all your bits) and that you'll be helpful to someone else's project or portfolio.

It's a genre just like anything else, and since more nude or adult themed stuff is primarily done around the internet (instead of fashion, for which it is much less important to have a good MM portfolio, and it's more important to be represented), TF with great photographers is more of a requirement for nude or adult shoots.

Porn, however, no one should be doing TF, IMO.
IDiivil wrote:
My TFPing of nudes with select, super talented photographers has made me way more money than I would ever make building my portfolio from paid work gigs only.
La Lana  wrote:
Sometimes it's a good trade for other pics too.  I need better bikini pictures, but don't  have the $$$ to fork out...I found a photographer who did great bikini pics, and nudes...I figured a lot of girls would do bikini pictures on TF...so I offered up bikini and nudes for TF.

Jan 09 13 07:51 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
291
Posts: 11,911
SEQUOIA NATIONAL PARK, California, US


see above.

/thread
Jan 09 13 07:56 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Apodyopsis
Posts: 6,073
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


So she never came back, eh?
Jan 09 13 08:34 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Jordan L Duncan
Posts: 207
Jacksonville, Florida, US


Emily Hayworth wrote:
Depends on the model.  Generally, people do TFP to improve their portfolio.  If they want to make money as a nude model, but don't have any good nude photos, it makes sense to do a trade shoot to get some good images that will make that person more marketable and therefore generate more money in the future.

Some people just like modeling nude, and don't care about the pay.

This.

Just because someone pays me does not mean that I will let them photograph me nude. I do it because I want to, with the right photographer.

I do trade nude for photographers who I feel will add something special to my portfolio. If they want to pay me to shoot nudes and I feel comfortable with it, then I will do that too.

Jan 10 13 10:07 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Drew Smith Photography
Posts: 5,011
Nottingham, England, United Kingdom


IIP wrote:
Some of the best nude shoots I've had were TF, you can take your time to do trial and error and ultimately learn something new. Often time’s paid models time is restricted and doesn’t allow for much exploration; recalling my early days in photography I didn’t find it to be as beneficial using paid models to develop a new concept.

I find that counter intuitive. At least for me.

If I 'hire' a model then during the time allocated I wouldn't think twice about experimenting as much as I liked.

If I was TF with a model, I wouldn't dream of 'experimenting' as I'd believe that was truly unprofessional and disrespectful, unless we had come to some prior agreement.

Although I suppose it depends on your definition of 'experimenting'; trying out a new lens is not the same as seeing how many 'in focus' shots you can get bouncing up and down on a pogo stick.

Jan 11 13 02:34 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
intense_puppy
Posts: 862
Brighton, England, United Kingdom


Drew Smith Photography wrote:
seeing how many 'in focus' shots you can get bouncing up and down on a pogo stick.

Now there's a concept big_smile

Although it would be better with the model on the pogo stick.

/threadjack

Jan 11 13 04:02 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Lisaliz
Posts: 39
Rochford, England, United Kingdom


Mostly I work for pay, but sometimes for trade. Different circumstances, different photographers and other reasons are behind these choices. But it really is irrelevant whether the shoot requires clothes, lingerie or not. It would be very embarrassing to be paid as a model just for taking clothes off!
Attitude really does matter in a model. It is ok to choose not to work to nude, but making a big divaesque deal of it, or demanding cash for nudity even though your modelling and business skills are poor, will put some photographers off you.
Jan 11 13 08:19 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Will Topham
Posts: 24
Baton Rouge, Louisiana, US


I've never done a nude shoot...I as of right now I don't have any plans to do one. But as others have stated, if you want to increase the size of your portfolio, then why not right? And for the people who only care about the money, it makes a lot more than clothed shoots I'd assume! So thinking back now, I'm with you...why DO people to TFP 18+ shoots?! Ahh. Confusion.
Jan 11 13 08:24 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Srefis Limited
Posts: 960
Asheville, North Carolina, US


Will Topham wrote:
I've never done a nude shoot...I as of right now I don't have any plans to do one. But as others have stated, if you want to increase the size of your portfolio, then why not right? And for the people who only care about the money, it makes a lot more than clothed shoots I'd assume! So thinking back now, I'm with you...why DO people to TFP 18+ shoots?! Ahh. Confusion.

Like any other skill. If you don't practice you will suck nude. And ultimately be wasting the photographer's time/money.

Jan 11 13 08:35 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
JohnEnger
Posts: 452
Fetsund, Akershus, Norway


SweetGirlyGirl wrote:

I agree with you on that. A lot of times when I'm paid for a shoot, I don't get any images, or any edited images.

That's because you get paid.
If I pay the model, (s)he don't get pictures. Period. If (s)he want pictures from that shoot, fine, but be prepared to pay me for them.

J.

Jan 11 13 08:49 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Lynn Elizabeth
Posts: 1,336
Coral Springs, Florida, US


Because some photographers are just that awesome that when they offer TF it's an honor all by itself. So if they want to shoot some nudes, if the model is comfortable shooting nudes, it's most likely going to happen.
Jan 11 13 10:13 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
S W I N S K E Y
Posts: 24,309
Saint Petersburg, Florida, US


Lynn Elizabeth wrote:
Because some photographers are just that awesome that when they offer TF it's an honor all by itself. So if they want to shoot some nudes, if the model is comfortable shooting nudes, it's most likely going to happen.

i am curious as to what your specific criteria is, in order to be considered "awesome".

http://i.imgur.com/m8TQi.png

Jan 11 13 10:44 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Lynn Elizabeth
Posts: 1,336
Coral Springs, Florida, US


S W I N S K E Y wrote:

i am curious as to what your specific criteria is, in order to be considered "awesome".

In my opinion, an awesome photographer has a great portfolio. These are photographers that I would only be able to dream of working with given my height. If those photographers offer TF, I try everything in my power to shoot.

Jan 11 13 11:29 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
my_other_profile
Posts: 666
Ankeny, Iowa, US


Because there are photographers we want to work with whose trade work is more valuable to us than booking a paid shoot with someone less competent?

(posted from the wrong profile, oops.)
Jan 11 13 11:57 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
SME
Posts: 20,702
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US


A male model once told me that as a result of our nude collaborative shoot, he went from struggling to book TF* gigs to getting nothing but paid offers.  That's a good example of how the right collaborative work can be of concrete benefit.
Jan 11 13 11:59 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jerry Nemeth
Posts: 25,900
Dearborn, Michigan, US


Lynn Elizabeth wrote:

In my opinion, an awesome photographer has a great portfolio. These are photographers that I would only be able to dream of working with given my height. If those photographers offer TF, I try everything in my power to shoot.

Is Swinskey awesome?   smile

Jan 11 13 12:42 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Herb Way
Posts: 1,472
Princeton, New Jersey, US


Mischa Marie wrote:

Why does anybody do tf?
The amount of skin you are showing doesn't automatically make it a paid shoot.

Amen! Very well said.

Jan 12 13 04:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Laura UnBound
Posts: 26,745
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Drew Smith Photography wrote:

I find that counter intuitive. At least for me.

If I 'hire' a model then during the time allocated I wouldn't think twice about experimenting as much as I liked.

If I was TF with a model, I wouldn't dream of 'experimenting' as I'd believe that was truly unprofessional and disrespectful, unless we had come to some prior agreement.

Although I suppose it depends on your definition of 'experimenting'; trying out a new lens is not the same as seeing how many 'in focus' shots you can get bouncing up and down on a pogo stick.

Oh my god thank you. I cannot fucking stand it when a photographer thinks a TF session means "use me as your guinea pig and its okay if you totally botch the shoot, its not like *I* put any effort into it and wanted useable photos back or anything"

You pay a model, you dont owe the model photos, "explore" all you want.
You do a TF shoot, you OWE her something USEABLE, and it should probably be LIKE the work youre already exhibiting because THATS why she wanted to work with you in the first place, not for your random new direction you thought would be awesome and looks nothing like what you were doing that got her attention.

/threadjack

Jan 12 13 07:25 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Model
MB Jen B
Posts: 2,459
Anchorage, Alaska, US


salvatori. wrote:
When a photographer looks out for all the poor llamas out there, he's called a white knight.

What do you call a llama who looks out for other llamas when they are working tf and getting taken advantage of?

Oh, I don't think she is looking out for anyone other than herself. See, if all us other llamas would just STOP shooting nude for free then photographers would contact her and pay her.

Jen

Jan 12 13 07:40 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 11,748
Olivet, Michigan, US


Drew Smith Photography wrote:
I find that counter intuitive. At least for me.

If I 'hire' a model then during the time allocated I wouldn't think twice about experimenting as much as I liked.

If I was TF with a model, I wouldn't dream of 'experimenting' as I'd believe that was truly unprofessional and disrespectful, unless we had come to some prior agreement.

Although I suppose it depends on your definition of 'experimenting'; trying out a new lens is not the same as seeing how many 'in focus' shots you can get bouncing up and down on a pogo stick.
Laura UnBound wrote:
Oh my god thank you. I cannot fucking stand it when a photographer thinks a TF session means "use me as your guinea pig and its okay if you totally botch the shoot, its not like *I* put any effort into it and wanted useable photos back or anything"

You pay a model, you dont owe the model photos, "explore" all you want.
You do a TF shoot, you OWE her something USEABLE, and it should probably be LIKE the work youre already exhibiting because THATS why she wanted to work with you in the first place, not for your random new direction you thought would be awesome and looks nothing like what you were doing that got her attention.

/threadjack

My ideal TF shoot is 4-6 hours.  I'll experiment for shot, or a set, but not the whole session.  I have certain things I typically do, and enjoy, which ensure that the model should get something of what she expects based on my port.  Actually, a lot of my experiments are the model's idea, to one degree or another.

Jan 12 13 07:41 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Model
MB Jen B
Posts: 2,459
Anchorage, Alaska, US


Art of the nude wrote:

SweetGirlyGirl wrote:
This is for the models.
Why are so many models doing 18+ shoots for TFP?

Look at the portfolios of these models.  See if you can recognize a pattern.  (Hint, they'e REALLY good.  These models are NOT selling "I'll get naked" but rather, "I am a skilled nude model.")

Emily Hayworth wrote:
Depends on the model.  Generally, people do TFP to improve their portfolio.  If they want to make money as a nude model, but don't have any good nude photos, it makes sense to do a trade shoot to get some good images that will make that person more marketable and therefore generate more money in the future.

Some people just like modeling nude, and don't care about the pay.
MelissaAnn  wrote:
For the same reason models do TFP for images that aren't 18+.

To build a portfolio of great 18+ images, so they are more likely to get hired for 18+ projects.

Some like shooting 18+ nude images simply for the art, and don't do it for the money.

Is this hard to believe or something?
MyrnaByrna wrote:
Because I am not in it for the money.
Laura UnBound wrote:
unless what the photographer wants/needs is someone with experience. At which point you need to be able to show that you have experience worth paying for.
Damianne wrote:
Because just being naked does not automagically qualify one to be paid, you have to have the portfolio to show that you can pose (which is really difficult naked, you gotta control all your bits) and that you'll be helpful to someone else's project or portfolio.

It's a genre just like anything else, and since more nude or adult themed stuff is primarily done around the internet (instead of fashion, for which it is much less important to have a good MM portfolio, and it's more important to be represented), TF with great photographers is more of a requirement for nude or adult shoots.

Porn, however, no one should be doing TF, IMO.
IDiivil wrote:
My TFPing of nudes with select, super talented photographers has made me way more money than I would ever make building my portfolio from paid work gigs only.

Wow! What an absolutely amazing list!! I am really priviledged to be included in it. Just WOW and thank you.
Jen

Jan 12 13 07:43 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
BTHPhoto
Posts: 6,723
Fairbanks, Alaska, US


SweetGirlyGirl wrote:
This is for the models.
Why are so many models doing 18+ shoots for TFP?

Beats the hell out of me.  I mean really, why would anyone place value on anything other than money?  hmm

Jan 12 13 07:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Avonelle
Posts: 167
Toledo, Ohio, US


I've been doing nude work for several years, and I've reached the point where the majority of my work is paid. But I still don't say Never to TFP. I have just become very selective about whom I will trade with, but it still happens on occasion.

Many of my strongest images have been from trade shoots - and not only did they amp up my portfolio, but also generated more paying work, a nice cycle that still benefits me to this day. And there are one or two shutterbugs who are just soooo much fun to work with, who have become such amazing friends, that I could never ever dream of charging them - we just have too much fun collaborating and experimenting and creating beauty! ^_^
Jan 12 13 07:48 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
R Michael Walker
Posts: 11,939
Costa Mesa, California, US


Mnemosyne Photography wrote:

And those people typically end up selling their cameras to pay rent. Unless they have a 9-5.

Just saying.

47 years of making art over $$ and I still have yet to sell my photo equipment for anything other than to get new photo equipment. And no day job either.

Jan 12 13 07:52 pm  Link  Quote 
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