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TF- what is a fair trade for the model?
I have done multiple TF shoots. Most photographers are good about giving you a good amount of images in a decent amount of time after the shoot. What do you do when you work with a photographer that slakes on the images? I have worked twice with a photographer who takes all these great pics. I only get one or two photos back. This last shoot he was an hour and half off schedule and we shot for a good 2 hours. I saw the images afterwards and there were plenty of good pictures. I have only received one photo and its of my back and you can’t tell it’s me. What is a good way to be assertive about this? I know there are plenty of images from this shoot I could benefit from. I feel like if I am providing my free time and doing my own hair and makeup, it should be a fair trade. Am I being to harsh for wanting more pics? What do you think a good number is for TF shoots? Jan 09 13 02:29 pm Link These details should be discussed before you agree to shoot. Jan 09 13 02:33 pm Link DAN CRUIKSHANK wrote: I try to make sure they are! But it seems some people bullcrap you! Jan 09 13 02:37 pm Link IsabelH wrote: Working twice with this photographer was your first mistake. As long as this photographer can fool models into working for minimum benefits, he/she will continue to do it. Jan 09 13 02:40 pm Link The same way you politely ask for anything, with a please, a thank you, and some good manners. Oftentimes photographers will be understanding. Yes, things should be discussed before hand, but in the real world, that doesn't always happen. I also have instances where the photographer will pick a couple of shots that are good for their port, but it's different from what I would have wanted. At that point, I might ask if I can see some of the unedited and select one or two for my port. I might also make a specific request, like, 'one of the headshots with this look where I made xyz expression'. A lot of photographers are understanding, especially if you're polite and not demanding. Saying, "Hey, yo, where are all my 100 edited pictures at you lazy pig!" doesn't get the same results. Jan 09 13 02:42 pm Link It depends entirely on the photographer. If I'm shooting TF for 2-3 hours with a skilled model, I will typically put 10-20 shots on a CD and mail it to the model, if she's not local. I put high-res shots on there and I will include a folder called 'Web Ready' which are all the same shots reduced in size for web use. That's just me. I shoot for the love of photography and creating unique images that (I hope) will benefit the model. In return, I use the model to as a 'guinea pig' to experiment with different lighting, angles, camera settings, etc. Sometimes I say 'Wow!' And sometimes I say 'Oops, you won't like that one.' Again... that's just me. To me... 'trade work' is just that. You give me your best as a model and I will give you my best as a photographer. Jan 09 13 02:46 pm Link IsabelH wrote: I provide 1-5 web sized pics, and one fine art print. Jan 09 13 02:47 pm Link I provide 10 edited images of the model's choice plus any images that I edit for my own use. I spell this out in a document that I give the model before the shoot so that there is no misunderstanding. Still, I've had models ask for as many as 75 images (I don't provide them). Jan 09 13 02:49 pm Link I let the model see the unedited images after I filter out the really obvious bad shots due to operator error or the model blinking or something. Then I'll knock out obvious duplicates where I might have clicked the shutter an extra time or two to make sure I "got it." I usually pick out my five or ten favorites, edit those, and after the model sees those, I'll post the unedited pics in a day or so. Mainly so they see good ones before they see what came straight out of the camera. I figure it's fair to let them see the unedited photos so they can see how the poses looked. It is good feedback for them. Then I ask them if they have any favorites they want to use and I'll work on those. It depends on the model too. If there isn't a lot of fixing that needs to be done because of really good skin, good makeup, facial expressions, etc, I don't mind doing more because they don't take as long. If they are bad because someone cut part of their eyebrow off as a practical joke the day before, then I'm not editing 75 photos but I'll still do five or ten more. lol. I suspect from what I've read that many photographers have a somewhat similar workflow. Jan 09 13 03:31 pm Link A non-pushy way to address images that may be awesome but otherwise dont help your portfolio, for the future, is prior to a shoot discuss YOUR wants/needs. Dont just "omg I love all your work lets do some of that" and leave it up to them. Instead "I really love your work, especially the head shots, I could seriously use something like that if youre open to shoot a few with me, along with whatever else you had in mind" Youve expressed what YOU need done. Ive got oodles of REALLY cool looking photos but maybe you cant tell what I look like, or maybe Im a tiny tiny piece of a picture on a huge amazing background and it looks awesome but its better suited for the photographer than for me, etc etc. TF should benefit both of you, so TELL THEM what you need to make it an equal trade. As for how many you get and in what time frame... eh. If they take 100 good shots are they supposed to sit down and edit and give you 100 shots? even though youre not actually going to put all 100 in your portfolio because that would be silly? No, of course not. If you tell them ahead of time the types of shots youre interested in, you should be getting those, and maybe if they like the other xyz shots theyll send those too, and youll have a decent range to pick from. Or maybe what you thought was good enough, they didn't. Ive done shoots where EVERYTHING looks great in-camera, but when I got home and pulled up the photos on the computer something was off in most if not all of them. Sometimes something goes wrong, on either end. Jan 09 13 03:32 pm Link It's like asking "How high is up?" Depends entirely on the people involved. We have photographers who are downright chintzy with their pictures. Some just welch completely. We have models who want every shot taken and want them all fully retouched--the same day! (No kidding--read some of the profiles) It's a legitimate negotiation question and it needs to be negotiated up front. If you're just starting out you might hope for a dozen taken in different locations and different wardrobe, so you can completely replace your portfolio. Don't count on getting it but I have done just that a couple of times, so you may get lucky. Or you may only get one picture out of the shoot that's worth having, but it's so perfect that you'd gladly pose all day with no lunch break just for this one picture. Again, don't count on it but, who knows? It might happen. All you really can do is have an open, friendly, reasonable discussion with your photographer, reach an agreement that works for both of you and if you can't do that, part friends and go on to the next one. Whatever you do, don't be a pushover and at the same time don't be a demanding diva. Trade is a partnership so both parties have to approach it with an attitude of fairness for the other. There is just no magic number that's "fair". All IMHO, as always. Jan 09 13 03:34 pm Link Laura UnBound wrote: Thanks! I would never want 100 pictures I think 10-15 is a decent number...right? Thanks for the advice! Jan 09 13 03:38 pm Link IsabelH wrote: This can vary from person to person and can also depend on if they are edited or retouched. This can be from 1 to 100. You only really need a couple of images from each look you did on the day. Jan 09 13 03:52 pm Link I work that out before the shoot, but one picture is not fair trade in mi opinion, especially if the shoots is more than two hours long. Usually for TFP shoots the photog gives me 5 edited shots (most give me all the shots on a disk so I can look through and pic the ones I'd like edited). Also...timely delivery of images. I've got photographers that after 3 months I'm still waiting for pictures. Needless to say I won't shoot with them again, that's just inconsiderate. That being said everyone is different which is why you discuss it in detail. Jan 09 13 04:09 pm Link What would you really rather have, a DVD full of crappy shots or 2 or 3 really good ones that take your portfolio to another level? What are you going to do with all those pictures? Jan 09 13 07:59 pm Link IsabelH wrote: One great picture is worth more than 20, or 200, crappy ones, but it does seem reasonable that you'd get something showing your face, barring unusual circumstances (like, I did an art nude shoot with a model who only did "faceless nudes" so there weren't any with her face. But that's not typical.) Jan 09 13 08:12 pm Link Laura UnBound wrote: Loads of wisdom here, not surprisingly. Jan 09 13 08:16 pm Link GM Photography wrote: What is she "going to do with" this IsabelH wrote: Jan 09 13 08:18 pm Link I have a TF contract with my models (usage rights, ownership, etc.) in which I promise them "at least X number of processed photos" and "within Y weeks." This helps assure them that it's a business transaction and that intend to keep my word. Also, since TF work is a collaborative partnership, I have no problem giving the model all the processed photos from a shoot. Jan 09 13 08:23 pm Link If you are trading you should get something that improves your portfolio - quantity does *not* improve your portfolio - most are too big anyway (including mine lol) *QUALITY* improves your portfolio - and as a result increases your desirability to other photographers, eventually increases in *quality* might raise you to the level of paying work..... I have noticed that the more experienced and professional a model is, the fewer images she wants from me in trade - the last model who traded with me wanted me to give her *one* image of my choice at the level of the work she is accustomed to seeing in my portfolio - new model: wants a CD full of "Raw files" learning model: wants to make selections form the images and get a bunch.... experienced model: wants to select a very few usually from those pre-selected by the photographer pro model - wants the photographer to send her a couple of good shots..... or something like that - there is an inverse relationship between model experience and the number of images they want and a correlation between model experience and the desire for quality over quantity Jan 09 13 08:28 pm Link If asked I specify that I will provide a minimum of 3 processed images within 3 months of the shoot. That's 3 in total, not per look, as not all looks may be successful. That's my fallback position though and I typically end up giving the model anything up to 4 images per look, depending on how many I like enough to process them, and how much I want to work with that model again  As for timescales, I'm pretty slow - I'll put a couple of unretouched "previews" on Facebook within 48 hours, but the rest can take anything up to 6-8 weeks to trickle through. Just my $0.02 Ciao Stefano www.stefanobrunesci.com Jan 09 13 08:31 pm Link IsabelH wrote: quality over quantity. Jan 09 13 08:33 pm Link IsabelH wrote: How many you get, again, depends on how many actually turned out good enough, how many were shot in the first place, how many are different enough that its worth editing (you wouldn't way three shots that are almost completely identical) how many looks you shot, etc etc. Jan 09 13 08:33 pm Link -B-R-U-N-E-S-C-I- wrote: But, you are pretty much incredible, and I suspect 99% of llamas AND photographers would be happy to choose from among the images you rejected. Jan 09 13 08:57 pm Link One shot of your back is a rather lousy exchange, in my opinion, but as was mentioned...agree to something in advance. If you haven't gone through what you are getting as part of the trade then you really need to adjust how you're going about things. Still, it's extremely rare for a model to ask me what she's getting as part of a trade. In almost every case I've had to bring it up and I do so to avoid problems after the shoot where they suddenly feel what I imagined as fair as not being fair. That said, I don't think there is such thing as a "fair" number. If a top-tier photographer gives you one amazing image or a low-skilled photographer gives you 20 mediocre images, which is the better and more "fair" deal? Additionally, if you get one or two great images from a shoot there's really little reason for more in most cases. You don't need dozens of similar shots for your portfolio, so really only the best one or two from each look is what you need. As a general rule I promise models I do TF a minimum of 3 edited shots and normally deliver within two weeks of the shoot (often in a day or two...but I get backlogged sometimes). I do, however, often give a lot more than the minimum, but that depends on how much variation we shot and the overall quality of the images. I'm happy to edit 20 images if they are all different and worth showing in someones port (I do take into consideration the strength of the models port vs. my own - if they are just starting out I might give them some images I know I'd never use, but that I'm still happy with). What can you do if a photographer doesn't deliver the images or agreed upon trade? Mostly nothing. Find better photographers to work with.  In the cases where I'm slow at delivering most of the models I've worked with are happy to just remind me that they are super excited to see the rest of the final images. That often is enough to get me working a little later into the night to get caught up. One last thought. I often find it funny that many models neglect to consider how much work can be involved in producing the final image. My portion of the hours involved in any given shoot is generally 2-5 times that of a models, so unless she's amazing beyond reason and really doing me a huge favor I find it a bit obnoxious when they feel entitled to great hosts of edited images. Fortunately I rarely run into models who aren't pretty cool people to work with. Jan 10 13 12:15 am Link One useable photo is a good number for TF shoots. Anything more is nice, but you're only ever going to want to use one at a time, so more is just options. When you TF, you're trading for one image. Jan 10 13 03:07 am Link I give them all the images in JPEGs so the model can pick the best image for them. Remember that the one that shows off my skills best isn't necessarily the one that shows off the model at her best or fits the hole in her port. You should agree what is expected before any shoot regardless of if it's paid or TF. Jan 10 13 03:25 am Link What is fair trade for TFP is determined between you and your photographer. Talk to them prior to the shoot and get an agreement down on paper. My normal trade average is 1-3 images per look. I've had shoots where I've been given dozens of images back, however, and shoots where I got maybe 3 images total. It ultimately varies between photographers. If your photographer isn't following the agreement you guys made, however, some lovely posters above have talked about a good way to approach the topic and ask for more images/etc without being offensive I won't repeat them since they already nailed it (Laura Unbound's post is awesome).Jan 10 13 03:27 am Link Art of the nude wrote: That's what I get for skimming through the post and not reading the entire thing. I thought it was another "I don't get enough images" post. My bad. Jan 10 13 05:29 am Link This is not unique to TF shoots. Sometimes despite all the talent and budget in the world a shoot just doesn't "come together". I watched The September Issue again the other night. In the movie, Mario Testino produced about a dozen clean shots and a questionable cover. For Vogue. This was after a week in Rome with Sienna Miller and all the budget you could ever want. His response was "eek. That's all we got? Oh well." It's an imperfect magic for the best. For us lowly mortals, it's magic we get anything at all. Jan 10 13 05:44 am Link 
Photographer Posts: 106 Sarajevo, Federacija Bosna i Hercegovina, Bosnia and Herzegovina IsabelH wrote: I give ALL pictures from the shoot on a DVD (or some of them in print if model request so) after I delete the blurry and those to be thrown away. In that case my only request to them is if they ever publish any of them to put my name as photographer. nothing else. Jan 10 13 06:36 am Link Damianne wrote: That's only if that one shot is the one that was best, and the photographer may not always see what others see, just my opinion. If I spend 4 hrs in front of the camera, go through different outfits and the photographer sends me 1 image...I'd be annoyed. It's not worth my time, unless it's someone like Ben Hassett in which case I'll shut up and take the one amazing shot. Jan 10 13 06:55 am Link Jojo West wrote: I work with a photographer based on what they create, so I'll take whatever they like. Jan 10 13 08:10 am Link i try to provide roughly 2 per hour of shoot time. but normally on a TF shoot i let the model choose her favorites. it doesn't hurt to discuss what to expect upfront but each photographer does it differently and some photographers feel that if the model is too demanding they should just pay the photographer already. at least you got some images. some guys can't even manage that. TF is a bit iffy. i'm pretty selective now about even doing TF shoots. Jan 10 13 12:30 pm Link The first time you worked with him and he didn't send you images..... Shame on Him. The second time you worked with him and didn't send you images..... Shame on you. If you didn't get what you felt was satisfactory the first time you shot with this photographer, why did you think the second time would be different? Jan 10 13 12:38 pm Link IsabelH wrote: Have you talked to the photographer in question about this? IsabelH wrote: Other than communicating w/ the photographer beforehand, I'm not sure what else you can do. Jan 10 13 12:41 pm Link I always try to give as many good images as I can, but you gotta remember, that photo also represents the photographer. If I see something I don't like, I wouldn't want you to use it because it represents me and my work. That being said, I know some out there do skimp on giving out decent photos. I suggest staying on them. Remind them that you have invested time as well in that photoshoot. Jan 10 13 12:48 pm Link IsabelH wrote: "Mate! Was a good shoot but I gotto say this, bit dissapointed in numbrr of shots so far. Are there more coming?" Jan 10 13 01:03 pm Link Damianne wrote: super point - Jan 10 13 01:14 pm Link DAN CRUIKSHANK wrote: IsabelH wrote: as suggested, discuss it in advance; add, then get it in writing. Jan 10 13 01:18 pm Link |
