PigeonFoo wrote:
Often enough when a model shows up for a shoot (not counting shoots with teams, of course. I'm speaking of model and photographer one on one time.) there are things that need to be done after arriving but before you start snapping away.

I always like to show up with my make up on and my hair ready, but sometimes decisions are made and things need to be changed. I also know of models who like to show up fresh-faced to start and then simply do their make up on set according to the look. All understandable situations. Along with the time to get in and out of wardrobe for different looks.

What I'm asking is, for you, when do you start timing the shoot? If you book for two hours, do you count that time to fix make up and get dressed.... or do you like to start timing the shoot according to when the pictures are actually taken?

It's quite the conundrum to me, sometimes, especially in the case of models or photographers who have booked multiple shoots for a single day.

try the search function on MM, there have been several recent threads on this topic

PigeonFoo wrote:
Often enough when a model shows up for a shoot (not counting shoots with teams, of course. I'm speaking of model and photographer one on one time.) there are things that need to be done after arriving but before you start snapping away.

I always like to show up with my make up on and my hair ready, but sometimes decisions are made and things need to be changed. I also know of models who like to show up fresh-faced to start and then simply do their make up on set according to the look. All understandable situations. Along with the time to get in and out of wardrobe for different looks.

What I'm asking is, for you, when do you start timing the shoot? If you book for two hours, do you count that time to fix make up and get dressed.... or do you like to start timing the shoot according to when the pictures are actually taken?

It's quite the conundrum to me, sometimes, especially in the case of models or photographers who have booked multiple shoots for a single day.

clock starts when  you are ready and dressed

ArtGlo wrote:

clock starts when  you are ready and dressed

Ridiculous - what if the styling, make-up and hair take two or three hours?

She gets paid for the time she's there, not just the time you have a camera in your hand.

Bare Essential Photos wrote:
That's an easy one. In most cases, it starts when the photographer starts shooting, unless some other arrangement is agreed on.

That's generally how I feel... but on the other hand if a model is dicking around and chatting too much, taking forever to get her various things done pre-shoot and so on those ladies REALLY need a nice nudge in the "You're killing valuable time" corner. Especially if they are working with a photographer who has another shoot after them.

PigeonFoo wrote:

That's generally how I feel... but on the other hand if a model is dicking around and chatting too much, taking forever to get her various things done pre-shoot and so on those ladies REALLY need a nice nudge in the "You're killing valuable time" corner. Especially if they are working with a photographer who has another shoot after them.

That's interesting to hear.
I'll tell the model tomorrow I'm only paying her for 35 minutes - after she's spent two hours getting ready - this is going to save me a fortune!

Small Fruit Pits wrote:
After you arrive and are ready in the manner you're supposed to be per discussion. Some folks find mindless ways to fart around...

If you're ready, and I'm not....well, shame on me.

yep sums it up pretty good

RKD Photographic wrote:
I'll tell the model tomorrow I'm only paying her for 35 minutes - after she's spent two hours getting ready - this is going to save me a fortune!

Short of very, very few exceptions...the idea of a model taking two hours after arriving to a shoot to be ready is completely insane to me! For those few High Concept exceptions, I'd imagine that it would be understood beforehand that prep would take a long time, and that both model and photographer would have free'd up the entire day to make sure they have plenty of time to shoot after everything was set up.

Otherwise, wow, what a waste of two hours and a ton of effort. Haha. You know what I mean?

PigeonFoo wrote:
Short of very, very few exceptions...the idea of a model taking two hours after arriving to a shoot to be ready is completely insane to me! For those few High Concept exceptions, I'd imagine that it would be understood beforehand that prep would take a long time, and that both model and photographer would have free'd up the entire day to make sure they have plenty of time to shoot after everything was set up.

Otherwise, wow, what a waste of two hours and a ton of effort. Haha. You know what I mean?

I'm kidding - I pay the girl from when she arrives.
It's not like she can earn money elsewhere while she's sat in the make-up chair is it?

Most of my stuff is fairly light on make-up, but a full-chat beauty shot 'can' take up to two hours or more for make-up, hair and styling and then only take 15 minutes to shoot. Seems a bit brutal to say the model is only getting paid for the time the photographer has his finger on the trigger.

In the world of internet modelling, it just seems fair to say the clock starts when you walk in - if you're dicking around and wasting time texting the BF or something, I'll mention it, but that's never happened so far.
By saying the clock stops when I call a wrap also doesn't take into account paperwork and clean-up - that time isn't billable - so the faster you get dressed and the admin sorted afterwards, the less time you waste and the sooner you can leave.

DOUGLASFOTOS wrote:
It only takes a moment in time....to be nice.

I think....Time begins when the Model Arrives.

There are other opinions....I hope that helps.

No way Jose!!

If I am paying by the hour to SHOOT she's paid from the time she comes in front of the camera ... hopefully the time I asked for.
That includes light test - you cant expect them to wait while you get the lights right etc.
Also if on location, all set up and any changes of location etc etc all counts as paid shooting time unless she's taking a too long break while we are ready and waiting it's all paid.

But NO not whatever time she arrives...
She'll need time to talk, catch her breath stretch etc. and sign paper work as well as touch up make up and review any planning for the shoot.
As soon as the on set time starts they are paid.

The clock comes off if the model takes a break, snack, cigarette or goes out for a phone call etc.

Of course if there is a team and the make up is part of the shoot you are booking her to sit for you do pay make up time.... but the OP said when no teams just you and her.

Unlimited Boudoir wrote:

No way Jose!!

If I am paying by the hour to SHOOT she's paid from the time she comes in front of the camera ... hopefully the time I asked for.
That includes light test - you cant expect them to wait while you get the lights right etc.
Also if on location, all set up and any changes of location etc etc all counts as paid shooting time unless she's taking a too long break while we are ready and waiting it's all paid.

But NO not whatever time she arrives...
She'll need time to talk, catch her breath stretch etc. and sign paper work as well as touch up make up and review any planning for the shoot.
As soon as the on set time starts they are paid.

The clock comes off if the model takes a break, snack, cigarette or goes out for a phone call etc.

Of course if there is a team and the make up is part of the shoot you are booking her to sit for you do pay make up time.... but the OP said when no teams just you and her.

I'm constantly amazed at the cheapskate attitude of some photographers - no wonder some models get bent out of shape when the images are late arriving...

All of the above activities - talking about the shots, touching-up make-up and signing paperwork - are part of 'the job' - the job you're paying her for.
Since most models charge by the hour and specify a minimum 2 hour booking, how exactly are you going to 'un-bill' her for a 3 minute piss-break?
If she needs a food-break then presumably it's a day-shoot as most models won't 'snack' during a half-day shooting - and you'll be paying a day-rate even if you only pick up the camera for two minutes all day.

Unlimited Boudoir wrote:

No way Jose!!

If I am paying by the hour to SHOOT she's paid from the time she comes in front of the camera ... hopefully the time I asked for.
That includes light test - you cant expect them to wait while you get the lights right etc.
Also if on location, all set up and any changes of location etc etc all counts as paid shooting time unless she's taking a too long break while we are ready and waiting it's all paid.

But NO not whatever time she arrives...
She'll need time to talk, catch her breath stretch etc. and sign paper work as well as touch up make up and review any planning for the shoot.
As soon as the on set time starts they are paid.

The clock comes off if the model takes a break, snack, cigarette or goes out for a phone call etc.

Of course if there is a team and the make up is part of the shoot you are booking her to sit for you do pay make up time.... but the OP said when no teams just you and her.

I've varied a little from what some folks do but......good luck with a lot of that, you'll need it

PigeonFoo wrote:

Short of very, very few exceptions...the idea of a model taking two hours after arriving to a shoot to be ready is completely insane to me! For those few High Concept exceptions, I'd imagine that it would be understood beforehand that prep would take a long time, and that both model and photographer would have free'd up the entire day to make sure they have plenty of time to shoot after everything was set up.

Otherwise, wow, what a waste of two hours and a ton of effort. Haha. You know what I mean?

This has never happened to me.  Models usually touch up their makeup and take off their clothes.   

PigeonFoo wrote:

That's generally how I feel... but on the other hand if a model is dicking around and chatting too much, taking forever to get her various things done pre-shoot and so on those ladies REALLY need a nice nudge in the "You're killing valuable time" corner. Especially if they are working with a photographer who has another shoot after them.

On the rare occasions when I shoot in a studio and hire a model, my feelings are that the clock starts when the model is prepared to work.  If we have agreed that she'll arrive with hair and make-up done, then that time is not on the clock, but if extensive preparations need to be done as part of the shoot, like elaborate hair or make-up, the model should be compensated for that time. 

Likewise, I don't feel that time spent in activities unrelated to shooting should be compensated - initial chit-chat as they settle in, bathroom and food breaks, etc., but breaks for wardrobe changes and make-up should be compensated.  However, I find it really annoying when models obsessively watch the clock and I don't want to do that either, and in practice pro-rating a three minute bathroom break or a minute of stretching is both impractical and somewhat ridiculous, so I don't really worry about those.

As for shooting on location (or at least the ones where I usually shoot), I really dislike working by the hour.  People walk at different speeds, work differently, and in general have very different comfort levels outdoors.  And in many cases there is a certain time of the day when I want to shoot.  So, I generally take a very different approach, and just negotiate a flat rate that both the model and I feel comfortable with.  The model feels that they their time and efforts are valued and works for their economic situation, and I get a rate that works with my economics and the shooting situation.

PigeonFoo wrote:
Often enough when a model shows up for a shoot (not counting shoots with teams, of course. I'm speaking of model and photographer one on one time.) there are things that need to be done after arriving but before you start snapping away.

I always like to show up with my make up on and my hair ready, but sometimes decisions are made and things need to be changed. I also know of models who like to show up fresh-faced to start and then simply do their make up on set according to the look. All understandable situations. Along with the time to get in and out of wardrobe for different looks.

What I'm asking is, for you, when do you start timing the shoot? If you book for two hours, do you count that time to fix make up and get dressed.... or do you like to start timing the shoot according to when the pictures are actually taken?

It's quite the conundrum to me, sometimes, especially in the case of models or photographers who have booked multiple shoots for a single day.

When agreed, in the case of freelancers. 

But, if I'm paying, and I intend the "clock" to start later than the latter of arrival or the scheduled time, I'm going to make it very clear in advance.  I consider it quite reasonable that if I say "be here at 3:00, I'm booking you for four hours"  that whoever I'm hiring will assume that the four hours starts at 3:00, if they're present.  I might legitimately have some other policy, but it's MY job to make sure that is clear to whoever I'm hiring.

Zack Zoll wrote:
If I'm charging, I start the clock as soon as I'm ready.  If you book me to start at 6, and I'm ready and waiting at 6, then that's when the clock starts, whether you're ready or not.  If I have a problem (say, a bulb blows), then I start charging at 6:10, or however long it takes me to find and install a new bulb and be ready to go.

If I'm paying a model, the clock starts when he or she is ready.  If we start at 6, and they spend half an hour futzing with hair and makeup because they didn't show up ready ... I'm not paying for that.  But if they're ready and I need to take a phone call, that phone call happens on their time, so I owe them for it.

In other words, the clock starts when the person getting paid to be there is prepared to take photos, regardless of whether or not the other person is ready.

So you don't think that 'getting ready' is part and parcel of the shoot? Would she be doing her make-up and hair in that style if it were not for you?
I've done a lot of work in other people's studios as well as my own and I've never yet seen a model not paid from the moment she arrived to begin prep for the shoot. Most models will arrive 10-15 minutes early to ensure they are ready to begin prep at the appointed time, but as long as they're in the door by the time specified, that's when the clock starts.
'Prep' for the shoot being hair and make-up.
No model I've EVER shot had perfect hair and make-up when she's arrived after travelling, often on public transport

Put it another way: would you task the MUA/stylist to go to the model's home to do the hair and make-up so she arrived at the studio ready to shoot? Of course not...

Sorry chap, but to me this is typical 'amateur' cheapness - and let's face it we're usually talking about models who charge around $30-50 an hour, so the amounts we're quibbling over are in the region of $10-15... cheap.

If the model is booked to arrive at a certain time and she arrives at that time, that is the time she gets paid from. Suck it up, FFS...

If you want a model to be there early, then maybe negotiate that in your pre-shoot communications, but most experienced models will expect to be paid for that also if it's more than 15 minutes (I charge my hourly rates in that way - an additional 15 minutes counts as the next full hour and is billed accordingly - and I expect a few of them do also).

If there's not enough time left to shoot after the model has got ready, then it's your time management that's at fault, not hers.
Assuming I book a model for four hours, then it's my responsibility to ensure those four hours are managed properly.

George Ruge wrote:
On a professional advertising shoot for a client, the model is paid from the time they show up.

This.

Models are normally paid for "time on set" - what the client chooses to do with that time is their problem, and on their dime.





Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

PigeonFoo wrote:
That's generally how I feel... but on the other hand if a model is dicking around and chatting too much, taking forever to get her various things done pre-shoot and so on those ladies REALLY need a nice nudge in the "You're killing valuable time" corner. Especially if they are working with a photographer who has another shoot after them.

RKD Photographic wrote:
That's interesting to hear.
I'll tell the model tomorrow I'm only paying her for 35 minutes - after she's spent two hours getting ready - this is going to save me a fortune!

Nothing wrong with that, if it's agreed in advance.  But her hourly rate for a 35 minute shoot with two hours of prep might be a bit higher than her rate for a three hour session.

Zack Zoll wrote:
If I'm paying a model, the clock starts when he or she is ready.  If we start at 6, and they spend half an hour futzing with hair and makeup because they didn't show up ready ... I'm not paying for that.  But if they're ready and I need to take a phone call, that phone call happens on their time, so I owe them for it.

In the real world, prep time could be a bout 70-80% of the time on set.
so you ask a model to spend a day shooting and you only expect her to be paid during the time she is shooting???

hell, ya know, you really only should be paying models for the time the shutter is actuating.

so lets see, if you shot a thousand images, the model would only be working for let see, 1/125 of a second per frame (avg), thats 125 frames a second, so that would men you'd only have to pay her for 8 seconds.

gotta love this place..

and its been my observation, doing commercial work for a lot of years, it's the photos, MUAs and stylist that are dicking around, bullshitting, wasting time..not the models..

S W I N S K E Y wrote:
and its been my observation, doing commercial work for a lot of years, it's the photos, MUAs and stylist that are dicking around, bullshitting, wasting time..not the models..

I stated in the first post that this counts for non-team shoots. As in the MODEL is in control of hair and make up, with perhaps the photographer's direction. Model and Photographer one on one time, so MUAs wasting time do not account for this situation I am presenting.

I have heard of models wasting a lot of time on set dragging their feet and taking their sweet, sweet time to apply some eyeshadow, eye liner and lip stick before a shoot. Almost as if they are avoiding the camera.... which was kind of the basis of this thread.

PigeonFoo wrote:

I stated in the first post that this counts for non-team shoots. As in the MODEL is in control of hair and make up, with perhaps the photographer's direction. Model and Photographer one on one time, so MUAs wasting time do not account for this situation I am presenting.

I have heard of models wasting a lot of time on set dragging their feet and taking their sweet, sweet time to apply some eyeshadow, eye liner and lip stick before a shoot. Almost as if they are avoiding the camera.... which was kind of the basis of this thread.

It's still up to the photographer to  'manage' the shoot though - all aspects of it - in that case he should chivvy the model along a bit. I usually tell the model how much time I have allocated for make-up and hair before she starts and if I thought she was farting around on her iphone to her BF I'd just start dropping heavy hints - if that didn't work, I'd be blunt: "do you want to get paid or not? 'cause we're here to work..."

RKD Photographic wrote:
That's interesting to hear.
I'll tell the model tomorrow I'm only paying her for 35 minutes - after she's spent two hours getting ready - this is going to save me a fortune!

Art of the nude wrote:
Nothing wrong with that, if it's agreed in advance.  But her hourly rate for a 35 minute shoot with two hours of prep might be a bit higher than her rate for a three hour session.

I was taking the piss, but you knew that, right?

RKD Photographic wrote:

Ridiculous - what if the styling, make-up and hair take two or three hours?

She gets paid for the time she's there, not just the time you have a camera in your hand.

Ridiculous Ridiculous

The studio I rent begins the clock when I tell them we're ready. I can move the strobes and make the lighting where I want it while the model gets prepared. If I was paying the model, and the studio for all that additional time I may as well sell my kidney.

RKD Photographic wrote:

I'm constantly amazed at the cheapskate attitude of some photographers - no wonder some models get bent out of shape when the images are late arriving...

All of the above activities - talking about the shots, touching-up make-up and signing paperwork - are part of 'the job' - the job you're paying her for.
Since most models charge by the hour and specify a minimum 2 hour booking, how exactly are you going to 'un-bill' her for a 3 minute piss-break?
If she needs a food-break then presumably it's a day-shoot as most models won't 'snack' during a half-day shooting - and you'll be paying a day-rate even if you only pick up the camera for two minutes all day.

Some may be equally amazed at your cavalier attitude.  Who cares?  Why do you care what others do?  Its simply about communication and having an agreement.  If I book a model for let's say 3 hours, I factor in a small amount of time for make-up retouches etc, but if she shows up in sweat pants, just rolled out of bed I wouldn't pay her to do hair/make-up.  I have a day job, and they don't pay me to shower, shave, brush my teeth etc before I come to work, so why would it be different with this?

Srefis Limited wrote:

Ridiculous Ridiculous

The studio I rent begins the clock when I tell them we're ready. I can move the strobes and make the lighting where I want it while the model gets prepared. If I was paying the model, and the studio for all that additional time I may as well sell my kidney.

Lucky you: most rental studios don't work that way.
They start the clock when you arrive to start moving stuff around - most will only rent by the day or half-day now anyway as it's uneconomical to rent by the hour - a lot of local (basic) hire studios have closed recently. Only specialist studios seem to be surviving.

I have my own studio now, so I generally avoid all that crap, but I have in the past been forced to use rental facilities and even now if it's a vehicle shoot, I'll hire a specialist studio in Koln or Dortmund which cater for large items such as cars and mini-vans.
I too set up the lights etc. while the model(s) gets ready - and she still gets paid from the time she arrives.

It's part of the cost of doing business. Can't afford it? - shoot TFP instead.

Besides - it's why you have two kidneys.

Demeter Photography wrote:

Some may be equally amazed at your cavalier attitude.  Who cares?  Why do you care what others do?  Its simply about communication and having an agreement.  If I book a model for let's say 3 hours, I factor in a small amount of time for make-up retouches etc, but if she shows up in sweat pants, just rolled out of bed I wouldn't pay her to do hair/make-up.  I have a day job, and they don't pay me to shower, shave, brush my teeth etc before I come to work, so why would it be different with this?

I think you need to look up the word 'cavalier'...

How does having what I regard as a realistic and sensible attitude to paying the talent for their time equate to showing arrogant or offhand behaviour, a disregard for the suffering of others; a dismissive attitude, or being otherwise carefree and nonchalant?

If she turns up in a sweat-stained Gorilla suit and wearing KY-jelly in her hair I care not, as long as she gets ready during the allotted time period.

Why do I care? Because the OP asked and this is a Discussion Forum, obviously - tell me: why the fuck do you care?

RKD Photographic wrote:
Make up and hair counts as 'work'. So do coffee-breaks.

Yes to the former, but no to the latter.

If a break were work, it wouldn't be a break.

Just sayin'.

David M Russell wrote:
Yes to the former, but no to the latter.

If a break were work, it wouldn't be a break.

Just sayin'.

EU labour regs state that mandatory breaks be provided: 10 minutes after 2 hours - 30 minutes after four hours.

It's the Law here.

You might be able to dodge it on TFP shoots, but if you're in business, paying the model and putting it through the books it all has to comply.

Srefis Limited wrote:
Ridiculous Ridiculous

The studio I rent begins the clock when I tell them we're ready. I can move the strobes and make the lighting where I want it while the model gets prepared. If I was paying the model, and the studio for all that additional time I may as well sell my kidney.

Your situation is unique. Most rental studios are going to start the clock when you arrive. Or even when you say you're going to arrive. If I rent my space to you for 4 hours, but you don't show up for the first three, I still had to pay somebody to be there to get you in and set up, etc. And if I had somebody booked to show up an hour after you said you'd be out? Well...you'd be out.

-D

RKD Photographic wrote:
EU labour regs state that mandatory breaks be provided: 10 minutes after 2 hours - 30 minutes after four hours.

It's the Law here.

You might be able to dodge it on TFP shoots, but if you're in business, paying the model and putting it through the books it all has to comply.

I don't disagree. My point is: the purpose of a break is that it's a break. It's not work. If you're working, it isn't a break. Get it?

RKD Photographic wrote:
EU labour regs state that mandatory breaks be provided: 10 minutes after 2 hours - 30 minutes after four hours.

It's the Law here.

You might be able to dodge it on TFP shoots, but if you're in business, paying the model and putting it through the books it all has to comply.

Wow, spoiled workers. Haha. Here in 'Merica the 10 minute breaks might be paid, but I don't believe you get one until 3 or 4 hours (Could be wrong. And, of course, every state varies) and the 30 minute breaks are UNPAID. -Edit- And, at least when I worked a few years ago where these laws applied, the 30 minute unpaid break was not even enacted until you worked 6 hours. So if you were there for 5 hours and 45 minutes and clocked out to leave - Too damn bad. No lunch break for you.

I don't need mini breaks in shoots that last under 4 hours. I'll often use changing into another look or the photographer moving lights around as a chance to catch my wind... and of course I may want to drink something but that hardly detracts from my actual modeling so I would never count it (nor want to) towards a break.

Given the way I pose and wiggle around, and how strenuous it can be on my back and legs after a while, on the rare occasion I shoot for longer than 3 or 4 hours I may want a sit down and a snack, but my sessions often don't last that long.