Photographer
Gabby57
Posts: 470
Ponca City, Oklahoma, US
We all have customers, no matter what we do, sometimes we provide goods, sometimes services, but we all have 'em. Photographers are the customers of llamas and vice versa.
I'm not a professional photographer, and have no aspirations to become one. But I am a professional, granted I don't deal with the general public, strictly business to business, but I do deal with people "I don't know" who call or email out of the blue.
When I have an idea for a shoot I contact llamas based on their fit with the idea and proximity. I always describe the idea, the approximate timing, inquire about the llama's fee requirements and often offer my budget. I also always ask for an immediate reply as to any interest or none on the part of the llama. The idea is that I don't waste any more of her time if she isn't interested and don't waste other llamas' time with the idea if she is.
I take serious exception to the oft quoted adage here that "no reply is a reply," it isn't, most often it's simply a sign that someone thinks this is a social network.
Once I've seen a llama has read my request and not replied I'll often drop a follow up thanking her for her "prompt reply". Yesterday, I found out that this is "rude" of me, since there is nothing "rude" about a llama not responding to "someone she doesn't know".
Rather than offer my opinion to her specifically, I thought I'd offer it to all, after all, it's free. Folks, if you are only here to pose for "someone you know" do the rest of us a favor and just send emails to all your buds asking to pose for them.
If you are here, either for paid work of TF, you are advertising your services in a public forum. That means you are actively looking for customers, and prospective customers deserve a reply as soon as you read their message or at least within a day.
Rant ends.
Model
K I C K H A M
Posts: 14689
Los Angeles, California, US
That's your opinion.
Other people disagree with you.
When it comes down to it, you can't decide how someone else will run their "business."
Not to mention that a customer pays. I don't consider either party a "customer" on trade shoots.
Model
Nicole Nu
Posts: 3981
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
K I C K H A M wrote:
That's your opinion.
Other people disagree with you.
When it comes down to it, you can't decide how someone else will run their "business." +1
Get over it and start focusing your energy on the people who do reply.
Photographer
Marin Photo NYC
Posts: 7348
New York, New York, US
While I do understand your rant, this is the Mayhem, internet models make their own rules, for many it isn't a job or a business.
I had someone respond to an email I sent last October, got a response a week ago. I don't even live in that city anymore.
Anyway, play the numbers, if you need one send ten emails to ten different models. That works for me. Those who procrastinate get skipped. Next!
Photographer
picturephotos
Posts: 521
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
K I C K H A M wrote:
That's your opinion.
Other people disagree with you.
When it comes down to it, you can't decide how someone else will run their "business."
Not to mention that a customer pays. I don't consider either party a "customer" on trade shoots. ♥
Model
K I C K H A M
Posts: 14689
Los Angeles, California, US
Marin Photography wrote:
While I do understand your rant, this is the Mayhem, internet models make their own rules, for many it isn't a job or a business.
I had someone respond to an email I sent last October, got a response a week ago. I don't even live in that city anymore.
Anyway, play the numbers, if you need one send ten emails to ten different models. That works for me. Those who procrastinate get skipped. Next! I'll agree with that.
But the similar situation to this (as we are talking about models not responding to an inquiry, not dropping off in the middle of correspondence) is a employer not responding to your resume if they aren't interested.
I don't know how many people here have been searching for jobs in the past few years, but a lot of times people only respond to you if you've made it to the next level.
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25319
Bath, England, United Kingdom
Gabby57 wrote:
Once I've seen a model has read my request and not replied I'll often drop a follow up thanking her for her "prompt reply". If this wasn't April Fools' day I would have been shocked that anybody here could behave this immaturely.
So kudos - you nearly got me with that one! 
Ciao
Stefano
www.stefanobrunesci.com
Photographer
Gabby57
Posts: 470
Ponca City, Oklahoma, US
K I C K H A M wrote:
That's your opinion.
Other people disagree with you.
When it comes down to it, you can't decide how someone else will run their "business."
Not to mention that a customer pays. I don't consider either party a "customer" on trade shoots. It is somewhat more than my opinion, it's the basis for business training at DuPont, where I learned it. Payment is not a pr-requiist to the customer/vendor relationship. As for paying, I assume you missed the part about inquiring as to fee schedule.
But I do see your point. This really IS nothing more than a social network.
Model
K I C K H A M
Posts: 14689
Los Angeles, California, US
Gabby57 wrote:
It is somewhat more than my opinion, it's the basis for business training at DuPont, where I learned it. Payment is not a pr-requiist to the customer/vendor relationship. As for paying, I assume you missed the part about inquiring as to fee schedule.
But I do see your point. This really IS nothing more than a social network. Sorry, I did miss that.
But my point still stands and it has nothing to do with this "just being a social network."
This may be of interest to you, and it doesn't necessarily support not responding.
http://www.thestar.com/life/technology/ … ommon.html
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 23575
Salem, Oregon, US
i think you might be wanting more than is feasible here. models aren't obligated to shoot nor are they obligated to respond to shoot inquiries. the trick is to find the models who would like to shoot with you. focus on those ladies and you'll do fine.
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 12067
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US
K I C K H A M wrote:
That's your opinion.
Other people disagree with you.
When it comes down to it, you can't decide how someone else will run their "business."
Not to mention that a customer pays. I don't consider either party a "customer" on trade shoots. He did mention asking about the model's fee, so perhaps he does pay. Certainly, if his shoots are arranged "business to business", it sounds like he has paying clients, and the model SHOULD be paid.
Model
K I C K H A M
Posts: 14689
Los Angeles, California, US
Art of the nude wrote:
He did mention asking about the model's fee, so perhaps he does pay. Certainly, if his shoots are arranged "business to business", it sounds like he has paying clients, and the model SHOULD be paid. Yes, that was my mistake.
However, most of the time when people say "no response is a response" here, they are talking about any shoot, including trade shoots.
So, I wasn't saying that I don't consider a model or photographer the customer in ANY case, just that I don't in a trade basis, so I don't think the "customer" logic works against the "no response is a response" theory, if that makes sense.
Photographer
AJ_In_Atlanta
Posts: 13053
Atlanta, Georgia, US
I sold business to business for over a decade and even then no reply is a reply. I can't believe you make dozens of cold calls and all get a response - sorry it doesn't happen. Still I made my multi million dollar numbers annually, no reply included.
Photographer
Gabby57
Posts: 470
Ponca City, Oklahoma, US
Art of the nude wrote:
He did mention asking about the model's fee, so perhaps he does pay. Certainly, if his shoots are arranged "business to business", it sounds like he has paying clients, and the model SHOULD be paid. Small correction before I go. My job is business to business (plastics), photography is my hobby. But yes, I always ask what the models fees are, paying a reasonable fee is my policy, even so far as offering to pay for fuel for those who've asked me for TF.
But, being a hobby, I just don't have the time to invest in sending out dozens of questions hoping for one actual session. It seemed really simple from the outside, models who want to be photographed and make a few bucks pose and get paid. But with one exception, it just has never worked out that way.
Photographer
Gabby57
Posts: 470
Ponca City, Oklahoma, US
AJScalzitti wrote:
I sold business to business for over a decade and even then no reply is a reply. I can't believe you make dozens of cold calls and all get a response - sorry it doesn't happen. Still I made my multi million dollar numbers annually, no reply included. Then I guess I'm lucky, in my thirty year career, I can think of three such instances, and yes, I sell tens of $M of product annually.
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 23575
Salem, Oregon, US
which is why they have the casting section? or have you not been getting any responses to your casting calls? if i need a llama i may also go check local availability notices/castings to see who's currently up for shooting. yesterday i shot a wonderful llama who had done some work here at 16 but then took a LONG break and just started shooting again. sometimes llamas aren't actively shooting. when you do your browse i believe you can sort by most recent activity and some say they only look at llamas who have been on within the last few days. Gabby57 wrote:
But, being a hobby, I just don't have the time to invest in sending out dozens of questions hoping for one actual session.
Photographer
Harold Rose
Posts: 2925
Calhoun, Georgia, US
Gabby57 wrote:
We all have customers, no matter what we do, sometimes we provide goods, sometimes services, but we all have 'em. Photographers are the customers of models and vice versa.
I'm not a professional photographer, and have no aspirations to become one. But I am a professional, granted I don't deal with the general public, strictly business to business, but I do deal with people "I don't know" who call or email out of the blue.
When I have an idea for a shoot I contact models based on their fit with the idea and proximity. I always describe the idea, the approximate timing, inquire about the model's fee requirements and often offer my budget. I also always ask for an immediate reply as to any interest or none on the part of the model. The idea is that I don't waste any more of her time if she isn't interested and don't waste other models' time with the idea if she is.
I take serious exception to the oft quoted adage here that "no reply is a reply," it isn't, most often it's simply a sign that someone thinks this is a social network.
Once I've seen a model has read my request and not replied I'll often drop a follow up thanking her for her "prompt reply". Yesterday, I found out that this is "rude" of me, since there is nothing "rude" about a model not responding to "someone she doesn't know".
Rather than offer my opinion to her specifically, I thought I'd offer it to all, after all, it's free. Folks, if you are only here to pose for "someone you know" do the rest of us a favor and just send emails to all your buds asking to pose for them.
If you are here, either for paid work of TF, you are advertising your services in a public forum. That means you are actively looking for customers, and prospective customers deserve a reply as soon as you read their message or at least within a day.
Rant ends. I am sure glad I do not have to run my business this way... You are not talking about a business you are talking about GAMES
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 12067
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US
AJScalzitti wrote:
I sold business to business for over a decade and even then no reply is a reply. I can't believe you make dozens of cold calls and all get a response - sorry it doesn't happen. Still I made my multi million dollar numbers annually, no reply included. Gabby57 wrote:
Then I guess I'm lucky, in my thirty year career, I can think of three such instances, and yes, I sell tens of $M of product annually. Three times in thirty years you've contacted someone trying to sell products and they didn't reply? I'm amazed.
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 13562
Washington, Utah, US
One thing I agree with you on is that a no-reply is not a reply.
A no reply does not necessarily mean someone read the message and didn't reply because they are not interested. There can be many reasons for a no-reply. It could be the model never received the message. It could be they replied, but I either missed or did not receive the reply. I had one model I had been talking to about a shoot, who suddenly stopped replying. I sadly found out later it was because she passed away.
That said, sending someone a message does not obligate them to reply. What ever the reason for their non reply, without communication, you can't set up a shoot, so move on to the next model on your list.
Photographer
LA StarShooter
Posts: 2730
Los Angeles, California, US
I think the customer model used, that may be successful in some arenas of business, is flawed for dealing with models on Model Mayhem. . A no reply may occur because the model is not that active. Model Mayhem is not a social networking site, as I think you commented. I built my portfolio from this site through TF shoots. Your best bet as someone already mentioned is to do a casting and put in the amount you're paying. You should do fine.
Photographer
Gabby57
Posts: 470
Ponca City, Oklahoma, US
Thank you for the replies. Best of luck to you all!
I would like to shout out to the one lady who not only replied but also posed for me; Nadezhda Repina, you are great!
Photographer
Gabby57
Posts: 470
Ponca City, Oklahoma, US
Art of the nude wrote:
AJScalzitti wrote:
I sold business to business for over a decade and even then no reply is a reply. I can't believe you make dozens of cold calls and all get a response - sorry it doesn't happen. Still I made my multi million dollar numbers annually, no reply included. Three times in thirty years you've contacted someone trying to sell products and they didn't reply? I'm amazed. I've always been fortunate enough to work for extremely well known and respected companies in my industry, just lucky I guess, admittedly the first half of my career was in R&D/customer service, so most answer the phone when the trouble shooter calls!
Photographer
Decay of Memory
Posts: 682
Asheville, North Carolina, US
Gabby57 wrote:
Once I've seen a llama has read my request and not replied I'll often drop a follow up thanking her for her "prompt reply". Yesterday, I found out that this is "rude" of me... You've worked in sales and customer service for decades and yet don't realize that your reply, as described above, is sarcastic and that is generally considered rude?
Photographer
Worlds Of Water
Posts: 37732
Rancho Cucamonga, California, US
Who Is Your Customer? You are ALL my customers... as noted from dozens of quotes from you on the MM page. A quote from that famous QUEEN song, 'We are the Champions': 'You brought me fame and forture and everthing that goes with it... I thank you all'...  ... 
Model
Tiffiney C
Posts: 570
Los Angeles, California, US
K I C K H A M wrote:
That's your opinion.
Other people disagree with you.
When it comes down to it, you can't decide how someone else will run their "business."
Not to mention that a customer pays. I don't consider either party a "customer" on trade shoots. Yup.
Tiff
www.TiffineyC.com
Model
Dekilah
Posts: 5236
Dearborn, Michigan, US
My customers are mainly my fans, mainly my Zivity fans as well as a few here and there on Facebook, ModelMayhem, Tumblr, and DeviantArt. My customers used to be photographers, but that has dropped down significantly as this market simply does not support the type of work I do on any scale that is worth my time. I make significantly more shooting self portraits for Zivity than I ever made most of my time as a paid model, certainly as a paid model here in Detroit. And generally when I am contacted for a paid shoot it is either outside my limits, outside of my available time schedule, or I am going through a phase with my pain issues. I have had to adapt myself to fit what market supports me. I miss shooting with other photographers and getting paid to do so, and I hope I can pick it back up again some day, but right now I am doing what works for me. I do still shoot trade occasionally, and all day for two days at a local shooting event called the DEAC.
But I am still here on MM. I am here to chime in on the forums, offer advice and insight, find inspiration, and to be part of the community. But I think I am pretty up front about my situation on my profile as well, as long as people take the time to read it before contacting me.
As far as the no reply... it happens. Taking it as a not interested/too busy is probably best. I mean, do you really want to work with a model who is not interested in the shoot, or too busy to get back to you, or who rarely checks their messages? Probably not. If you really like their look you can always bookmark them and try again later. Life does happen and young women especially can get overwhelmed by things that are going on.
Photographer
Chuckarelei
Posts: 11271
Seattle, Washington, US
Op has been kidnapped by space aliens.
Photographer
American Glamour
Posts: 38813
Detroit, Michigan, US
Abbitt Photography wrote:
One thing I agree with you on is that a no-reply is not a reply. I agree, but it is reality, right or wrong.
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 23575
Salem, Oregon, US
this thread was enough to drive him away? interesting. Chuckarelei wrote:
Op has been kidnapped by space aliens.
Photographer
Worlds Of Water
Posts: 37732
Rancho Cucamonga, California, US
Chuckarelei wrote:
Op has been kidnapped by space aliens. He has definitely 'left the building'... but I would blame the space aliens. He probably realized after his unpopular public rant that he wasn't cut out for 'life in the big city'...
Photographer
D-Light
Posts: 629
Newcastle, Limerick, Ireland
Gabby57 wrote:
Folks, if you are only here to pose for "someone you know" do the rest of us a favor and just send emails to all your buds asking to pose for them. This bit I agree with.
As for the no reply bit, if a model doesn't reply to one of my mails I just move onto the next one. There's many reasons why she ignored my message and I'm not entitled to know why, after all, we don't know each other.
Photographer
DVS
Posts: 10000
Detroit, Michigan, US
Gabby57 wrote:
I take serious exception to the oft quoted adage here that "no reply is a reply," it isn't, most often it's simply a sign that someone thinks this is a social network. Nope. Sometimes people just aren't into you. ^__^
Photographer
AJ_In_Atlanta
Posts: 13053
Atlanta, Georgia, US
Gabby57 wrote:
I've always been fortunate enough to work for extremely well known and respected companies in my industry, just lucky I guess, admittedly the first half of my career was in R&D/customer service, so most answer the phone when the trouble shooter calls! I worked in IT sales for the leader in firewalls (bank in the day), they invented the stateful inspection code that all modern firewalls are based on. We had 100 of the Fortune 100 companies as customers. The leader in the field by all accounts and we all got no responses from cold calls...
Regardless its very common in this industry
Photographer
KMP
Posts: 4834
Houston, Texas, US
K I C K H A M wrote:
That's your opinion.
Other people disagree with you.
When it comes down to it, you can't decide how someone else will run their "business."
Not to mention that a customer pays. I don't consider either party a "customer" on trade shoots. That's the rub. Most people on here have little concept of what a business is and few manage their activities with any serious sense of business.
Maybe it's an age thing, but I feel that most, treat inquiries on here like a hobby, even if they are offered money.
Just my opinion. 
That said, not getting replies is not uncommon for in any business. Personally, I feel a direct question is due a direct answer. But again that's just me.
Photographer
Ralph Easy
Posts: 6426
Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
Chuckarelei wrote:
Op has been kidnapped by space aliens. Nobody warned the OP this was Mos Eisley.
"You will never find a more..."
.
Model
MelissaAnn
Posts: 3971
Seattle, Washington, US
Do you just assume everyone on Facebook is there to run a business and advertise services? Do you think it's rude when people on FB don't respond to random offers from people they don't know? Probably not. Some people have pages on FB to advertise their business, or promote themselves, others have personal pages, and are not necessarily advertising anything.
Model Mayhem is a social networking site, much like FB, it's really not a difficult concept to grasp. The large majority of people on MM are hobbyists, and many are completely uninterested in making modeling or photography a full-time job. Many don't care to make any money at all, they're just here to have some fun.
Save yourself some aggravation, and don't make the silly assumption that everyone on a social networking site is there for the same reasons you are.
When you signed up for MM, do you remember seeing anything that said this site is only for those trying to run a serious business? There's your answer.
Photographer
DELETED-ACCOUNT_
Posts: 10303
Los Angeles, California, US
So much wrong with this....but I'll just chime in and say that it's kinda petty and childish to reply with the snarky "Thanks for the prompt reply" bit. Obviously they didn't care to work with you before, and I'd imagine after that you're probably likely to just be blocked or on some sort of shitlist. Be the bigger person, accept that what you're offering isn't of any interest to them, and use that energy to be productive instead of passive-aggressive. You'll get much further in life that way.
Photographer
DarrylPascoePhotography
Posts: 484
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
MelissaAnn wrote:
Do you just assume everyone on Facebook is there to run a business and advertise services? Do you think it's rude when people on FB don't respond to random offers from people they don't know? Probably not. Some people have pages on FB to advertise their business, or promote themselves, others have personal pages, and are not necessarily advertising anything. My issue with this statement is model mayhem is not facebook, there is a social aspect to model mayhem because its members make it such, but this site is not just for basic socializing though some may use it as such. This site by its own admission has a specific purpose.
MelissaAnn wrote:
Model Mayhem is a social networking site, much like FB, it's really not a difficult concept to grasp. The large majority of people on MM are hobbyists, and many are completely uninterested in making modeling or photography a full-time job. Many don't care to make any money at all, they're just here to have some fun. The fact that many here probably even the majority do not want to make it a job for themselves or do modelling/photography etc for fun doesn't all of a sudden just make it a social site. Again because there is an aspect of the site that works a bit of social in there does not mean it is here for that purpose.
MelissaAnn wrote:
When you signed up for MM, do you remember seeing anything that said this site is only for those trying to run a serious business? There's your answer. Yep google model mayhem and right there from the main page of this site itself it advertises itself as....
"Model Mayhem is the #1 portfolio website for professional models and photographers. Create a profile, upload your photos and connect with other professionals."
Anyone that is signed up here is assumed to be interested in collaborating with others in photography and modelling. People aren't signing up here not realizing what it is this site is, or without a purpose towards what this site is supposed to be doing.
All that being said, to the OP yea that was rude to respond in that manner.
IMO It is rude to not respond period to a request to collaborate (why would you not expect these and be here) that being said you don't let it get to you and you don't act rudely yourself to match it.
Model
MelissaAnn
Posts: 3971
Seattle, Washington, US
DarrylPascoePhotography wrote:
MelissaAnn wrote:
Do you just assume everyone on Facebook is there to run a business and advertise services? Do you think it's rude when people on FB don't respond to random offers from people they don't know? Probably not. Some people have pages on FB to advertise their business, or promote themselves, others have personal pages, and are not necessarily advertising anything. My issue with this statement is model mayhem is not facebook, there is a social aspect to model mayhem because its members make it such, but this site is not just for basic socializing though some may use it as such. This site by its own admission has a specific purpose.
The fact that many here probably even the majority do not want to make it a job for themselves or do modelling/photography etc for fun doesn't all of a sudden just make it a social site. Again because there is an aspect of the site that works a bit of social in there does not mean it is here for that purpose.
Yep google model mayhem and right there from the main page of this site itself it advertises itself as....
"Model Mayhem is the #1 portfolio website for professional models and photographers. Create a profile, upload your photos and connect with other professionals."
Anyone that is signed up here is assumed to be interested in collaborating with others in photography and modelling. People aren't signing up here not realizing what it is this site is, or without a purpose towards what this site is supposed to be doing.
All that being said, to the OP yea that was rude to respond in that manner.
IMO It is rude to not respond period to a request to collaborate (why would you not expect these and be here) that being said you don't let it get to you and you don't act rudely yourself to match it. Continue thinking whatever you like, unfortunately, reality differs from your opinion.
I never said MM was Facebook. I said people are here for different reasons, and use the site for social networking, much like FB.
Model Mayhem is not a site *only* for professionals. It says that nowhere. Are there professionals on here? Yep. Are there professionals on Facebook? Yep.
Does social networking take place on both sites? Yep. Do people have portfolios on both sites? Yep.
Reality can be so frustrating.
Photographer
DarrylPascoePhotography
Posts: 484
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
MelissaAnn wrote:
Continue thinking whatever you like, unfortunately, reality differs from your opinion.
I never said MM was Facebook. I said people are here for different reasons, and use the site for social networking, much like FB.
Model Mayhem is not a site *only* for professionals. It says that nowhere. Are there professionals on here? Yep. Are there professionals on Facebook? Yep.
Does social networking take place on both sites? Yep. Do people have portfolios on both sites? Yep.
Reality can be so frustrating. I didn't say that the reality wasn't different than what the site claims to be, I simply said what the site's purpose is. I stand by that statement. A hammer isn't for doing a lot of things people have used hammers in reality for. Doesn't mean the purpose of the hammer changes.
I don't remember saying anything about model mayhem being "only" for professionals or that I saw that written did I? You can show me where I made that claim. If you google model mayhem the advertising for the site you will see exactly and precisely as I posted it.
I also remember posting that there is of course a social element to model mayhem obviously we are using it right now Don't remember claiming there wasn't.
Facebook has the actual purpose of being a social networking site with no specific intent involved. Model mayhem is very different then that, there is a specific purpose for members of model mayhem to be here. Though many may be here to socialize as well, it is very clear what the site is and was designed for. What people do with it for in reality...well we cant control that completely now can we. (simple example people faking being a photographer or model in order to scam or harm other members. would they need to do that if the purpose of the site was strictly just for "anyone" to come and socialize? and could we have a problem with that if it was? Doesn't mean it loses its initial purpose. Is it not true that in order to be a part of this site you have to be a photographer, model, stylists, etc etc even going to the point of claiming who cannot be here.
and yep...reality can be very frustrating
|
... 
