K I C K H A M wrote:

While I see your point-- this is important.

Most of the girls here are saying how many of their shoots go well, but that, yes, skeevy things have happened.

These are the conversations that need to be happening.

It seems like few new models I talk to are really down to earth about the whole-- they either think everyone is going to touch/ rape/ kill them, or they think that they are in some protective little bubble because they are working with "real" photographers.

As much as making it sound like all photographers are bad news is terrible, making it sound like they all aren't is dangerous.

Kelli, please quote the post where someone suggested that they all aren't dangerous.

Paige Morgan wrote:
I totally get what you're saying. Given that a lot of glamour work is focused on selling the model as the ideal fantasy dream girl, it's probably a bit more common for dumb people to attempt to cross lines, not separating the person from the idealized image.

I hate people.

And for those of us who simultaneously thing of the model as an intelligent and interesting young woman, and a very nicely shaped fruit bowl to bounce light off of, this whole flirting / groping / propositioning business just seems like a different world.

Tuesday Hanson wrote:
Ah same thing happened to me last week! A photographer, without any warning, shoved his hand down my swimtop and "readjusted" both of my breasts. It was terrifying. Like who the hell thinks that's okay?

That is, simply put, assault.  Did you report it?

-The Dave- wrote:
Guilty!  I got "Skeevy" with my model when shooting for the Nikon Calendar a few years ago...



Seemed to work for me, we are getting married this Sunday.

CONgratulations !

Image K wrote:

Kelli, please quote the post where someone suggested that they all aren't dangerous.

People talk all the time as if nothing ever happens.

And then a lot talk as if you're going to be attacked walking out of your front door.

This happens a lot around here, and it's easy to see.

K I C K H A M wrote:

People talk all the time as if nothing ever happens.

And then a lot talk as if you're going to be attacked walking out of your front door.

This happens a lot around here, and it's easy to see.

Again...please quote any post since the inception of MM where someone/anyone suggests that "nothing ever happens".

If it's that easy to see, it shouldn't take long.

You may have seen people say that, although modeling has it's inherent dangers, they are easily minimized by sensible research and safety precautions...or you may have seen people say that it isn't as dangerous as other things that we do every day (thereby lending some perspective to the danger)...but I haven't seen anyone say, "It just doesn't happen".

I may have missed it.

Leah Marlow wrote:
I had one really gross experience. The photographer started making comments about all the "improvements" I could make to my body - eat less so I could bring out my "anorexic ribs" (his words), get my boobs done, get the fat in my belly transferred to my ass, start tightlacing...all while invading my personal "bubble". He seemed almost turned on by the idea of trying to fix me.

I carry a knive, and I pulled it on him. Problem solved.

(Didn't actually use it, it just scares the hell out of people!)

So you threatened a photographer with a knife for making suggestions on how to improve your body...

That qualifies as a skeevy experience for him.

Image K wrote:

Again...please quote any post since the inception of MM where someone/anyone suggests that "nothing ever happens".

If it's that easy to see, it shouldn't take long.

You may have seen people say that, although modeling has it's inherent dangers, they are easily minimized by sensible research and safety precautions...or you may have seen people say that it isn't as dangerous as other things that we do every day (thereby lending some perspective to the danger)...but I haven't seen anyone say, "It just doesn't happen".

I may have missed it.

Things like this come to mind:

Danny Bs Photos wrote:
It strikes me that you're more likely to be murdered on your way too or from a shoot than at the shoot itself. If the photographer hasn't murdered any of his previous models,I think you'll be ok. It's funny when a model says she won't work without an escort, but frequently goes home with a guy she's met while drunk in a bar.

In the thread about model safety. A lot of the things I see don't specifically say, "THIS NEVER HAPPENS," however, they make a mockery out of "model safety," as if it isn't something to consider and it's the same thing as going to a public place alone.

Leah Marlow wrote:
I had one really gross experience. The photographer started making comments about all the "improvements" I could make to my body - eat less so I could bring out my "anorexic ribs" (his words), get my boobs done, get the fat in my belly transferred to my ass, start tightlacing...all while invading my personal "bubble". He seemed almost turned on by the idea of trying to fix me.

I carry a knive, and I pulled it on him. Problem solved.

(Didn't actually use it, it just scares the hell out of people!)

I will never shoot with you!!

K I C K H A M wrote:

While I see your point-- this is important.

Most of the girls here are saying how many of their shoots go well, but that, yes, skeevy things have happened.

These are the conversations that need to be happening.

It seems like few new models I talk to are really down to earth about the whole-- they either think everyone is going to touch/ rape/ kill them, or they think that they are in some protective little bubble because they are working with "real" photographers.

As much as making it sound like all photographers are bad news is terrible, making it sound like they all aren't is dangerous.

I'm not saying that the conversations should not happen, that problems should be swept under the rug -

What I am saying is that the number of posts mongering these issues,  and sheer volume of discussion on this topic, are out of all proportion,  and are damaging the very purpose for which Model Mayhem exists - to create a place of connection between models and photographers....

Even for me, a working professional with an excellent reputation,  a decent portfolio, a ton of references,   this is creating a negative climate, and causing me to look elsewhere when looking for models -

I can only imagine the difficulty that this is creating for people trying to become established....

Safety is important of course -

here is what I would recommend -

Having a specific forum for issues of model / photographer safety which would have a resource for real and effective safety tips

And

Moderation aimed at eliminating the pretty much daily fear mongering / white knighting posts that keep this stuff stirred up out of all proportion 

Life has it's potential dangers - so does pretty much every workplace.  That's just common sense.

K I C K H A M wrote:
In the thread about model safety. A lot of the things I see don't specifically say, "THIS NEVER HAPPENS," however, they make a mockery out of "model safety," as if it isn't something to consider and it's the same thing as going to a public place alone.

I agree with that.  The problem is, and I don't know the answer, is "How to balance it?"  On the one hand, the true risk of rape or murder is very small.  On the other hand it does happen.   On the other, other hand, there are many inappropriate photographers.  On the other, other, other hand, many are boorish, but they aren't dangerous.

The balance is how to have the dialogue, openly, to foster a better environment without scaring the beattle juice out of new models.   It is a tough situation, which is why I don't criticize these threads.

Girls need to develop the perception necessary to know when there really is danger, or at least the real risk of danger.  They need to learn to walk away.  Most seasoned models learn the ropes and cope well.  The issue to me, is how to get models to that point?  It isn't an easy question. 

It has already been said, even one rape is too many.

Fotografica Gregor wrote:

I'm not saying that the conversations should not happen, that problems should be swept under the rug -

What I am saying is that the number of posts mongering these issues,  and sheer volume of discussion on this topic, are out of all proportion,  and are damaging the very purpose for which Model Mayhem exists - to create a place of connection between models and photographers....

Even for me, a working professional with an excellent reputation,  a decent portfolio, a ton of references,   this is creating a negative climate, and causing me to look elsewhere when looking for models -

I can only imagine the difficulty that this is creating for people trying to become established....

Safety is important of course -

here is what I would recommend -

Having a specific forum for issues of model / photographer safety which would have a resource for real and effective safety tips

And

Moderation aimed at eliminating the pretty much daily fear mongering / white knighting posts that keep this stuff stirred up out of all proportion 

Life has it's potential dangers - so does pretty much every workplace.  That's just common sense.

Great post!   You nailed it.   Several years ago there was a rash of young girls and women victimized by people from Facebook they hooked up with.   Yet FB isn't a bad or good place and is no more dangerous then most sites.   Troubling too me though about MM is when photographers who should know better fear monger and start threads they have to know will hurt fellow shooters.   Women should be careful but it tends too be ex lovers, current lovers and casual friends who are a problem not some middle aged dude with a camera.

Do you remember the infamous 'Raped of mind body' thread?   A former member claimed she was attacked at a shoot but later we learned that was a lie.  I don't think model need a constant reminder too be safe.   These are bright capable women.   Caution is wise in all walks of life but asking for skeevy experiences is a recipe for problems and needless drama.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Women should be careful but it tends too be ex lovers, current lovers and casual friends who are a problem not some middle aged dude with a camera.

ontherocks wrote:
i had a model tell me that in a year she had two bad experiences but had since learned to weed those guys out before shooting with them. i'm thinking there are more out-of-control horny guys doing this than is healthy for the models. some photographers are doing it for the hope of sex (one of my glamour books basically says "if you play your cards right you will reap the benefits from happy models") when they should really just be using backpage to hire an escort. i'm guessing it's uncommon for models to be falling for middle-aged MIS guys but we can dream i suppose.

A poorly kept secret is there have been a few models who do act as escorts and for a few extra bucks provide happy endings.   I'm not saying that photographers should approach models with sexual offers.   I am saying that adults do all kinds of things.   I had a model tell me I got her wet and no, I hadn't poured water on her.   Another model just showed up at my door a day after a shoot....   I'm a average guy without  six pack abs, trust fund and a sports car either.   Photographers can be goofs and some act in a less then professional fashion.   I've watched young women flirt at shoots.   I've assisted and witnessed models saying and doing things that would make a sailor blush.

If someone says and acts in a way you don't like or goes too far.   Speak up!   That goes for the cute guy at the club or a middled aged man with a camera.   People tend to  respect our limits once we clearly define them.   No need for knives as a model mentioned or cussing.   Just be clear and definite.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
A poorly kept secret is there have been a few models who do act as escorts and for a few extra bucks provide happy endings.   I'm not saying that photographers should approach models with sexual offers.   I am saying that adults do all kinds of things.   I had a model tell me I got her wet and no, I hadn't poured water on her.   Another model just showed up at my door a day after a shoot....   I'm a average guy without  six pack abs, trust fund and a sports car either.   Photographers can be goofs and some act in a less then professional fashion.   I've watched young women flirt at shoots.   I've assisted and witnessed models saying and doing things that would make a sailor blush.

If someone says and acts in a way you don't like or goes too far.   Speak up!   That goes for the cute guy at the club or a middled aged man with a camera.   People tend to  respect our limits once we clearly define them.   No need for knives as a model mentioned or cussing.   Just be clear and definite.

We are all adults here.  As long as there are human beings on this Earth, there will be flirtation, sex and good relationships ... plus the ugly flipside of criminal exploitation, rape and murder.   The use of common sense can help us put things into perspective, but unfortunately not everyone has common sense or has it all the time.   

Our perspective of the World has an awful lot to do with our own fears.

Echo_ wrote:
it's a problem in the industry in general. A lot of famous, professional models are coming out and talking about their unfortunate experiences with photographers.  It doesn't mean that photographers are inherently evil or that an escort Will protect you (in some cases there were teams or assistants present and situations still happened). It just means that there are some that take advantage and ruin it for the rest. I have to disagree with the people that say that those risks happen in every profession. Modeling isn't like other professions, there is a powerlessness that comes with it. You are an independent contractor, the law doesn't protect you in the same way. Yet people shouldn't take it as people trying to strike fear in the newbies. Although I have to say there are more productive ways of educating the newbies to better protect themselves, comparedmtomexchanging stories. Like educating them on strategies  like reference checks.

I think that if an internet model takes reasonable precautions (and ignores those who say checking references is useless, although limiting yourself to references provided by the photographer is less than ideal) is SAFER than someone in the "Real Industry."  "Real Industry" models tend to be younger, and are in much more vulnerable positions where the family might depend on them, they're away from friends and family, and people can pressure them.  From what I understand, bookers can be the worst, although plenty of "Published, professional, photographers" are exploitative as well.

Jolly Rauncher wrote:
This thread reeks of male privilege.

This post reeks of gender bias

Revenge Photography wrote:
This post reeks of gender bias

I'm not calling all men total wastes of space here whatsoever, and I don't think anyone else here has either. There is a difference between "male privilege" and "gender bias".

I'm making an observation that a lot of the models in this thread who have had troubles with creep factors, are usually in a situation where some guy thinks he can either get away with non-consensual actions or feeling like they deserve them (touching, phone-stalking, unsolicited remarks about body type/improvements/etc). THAT is male privilege in the worst definition of the word.

Jolly Rauncher wrote:

I'm not calling all men total wastes of space here whatsoever, and I don't think anyone else here has either. There is a difference between "male privilege" and "gender bias".

I'm making an observation that a lot of the models in this thread who have had troubles with creep factors, are usually in a situation where some guy thinks he can either get away with non-consensual actions or feeling like they deserve them (touching, phone-stalking, unsolicited remarks about body type/improvements/etc). THAT is male privilege in the worst definition of the word.

The difference is males rarely complain if the roles are reversed, I've had topless or naked models come and sit on my lap without being invited to do so. I had a model jokingly push my face between her breasts in celebration of her new implants. Males just don't make a big deal out of it, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen, nor does it mean it's welcome.

Revenge Photography wrote:
The difference is males rarely complain if the roles are reversed, I've had topless or naked llamas come and sit on my lap without being invited to do so. I had a llama jokingly push my face between her breasts in celebration of her new implants. Males just don't make a big deal out of it, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen, nor does it mean it's welcome.

If it isn't welcome, say something. Nobody is forcing you to keep your mouth shut just because you're a man and the person doing the groping is female.
There is a difference between going in to a gentleman's club or hanging out with some llama friends, and nearly being raped or harassed or stalked. Don't sugar-coat and compare some casual booby action that you didn't mind at all to the same thing as what llamas are describing here.

Jolly Rauncher wrote:

If it isn't welcome, say something. Nobody is forcing you to keep your mouth shut just because you're a man and the person doing the groping is female.
There is a difference between going in to a gentleman's club or hanging out with some model friends, and nearly being raped or harassed or stalked. Don't sugar-coat and compare some casual booby action that you didn't mind at all to the same thing as what models are describing here.

Yes, because unwanted contact is worse when it happens to a female right?

I never said anything about hanging out with model friends or a gentlemens club nor did I say I didn't mind it, so who is sugar coating what? 

Seems my gender bias comment may have hit close to the mark.

Echo_ wrote:
it's a problem in the industry in general. A lot of famous, professional models are coming out and talking about their unfortunate experiences with photographers.

It's unfortunate that they waited. If they had said something about it at the time that it happened, it would probably have saved other models from having to endure the behavior.

Echo_ wrote:
It doesn't mean that photographers are inherently evil or that an llama herder Will protect you (in some cases there were teams or assistants present and situations still happened). It just means that there are some that take advantage and ruin it for the rest. I have to disagree with the people that say that those risks happen in every profession.

Trust me when I say...there are MANY occupations that are more dangerous than modeling.

Echo_ wrote:
Modeling isn't like other professions, there is a powerlessness that comes with it. You are an independent contractor, the law doesn't protect you in the same way. Yet people shouldn't take it as people trying to strike fear in the newbies. Although I have to say there are more productive ways of educating the newbies to better protect themselves, comparedmtomexchanging stories. Like educating them on strategies  like reference checks.

I couldn't agree more. I have posted links to effective due diligence and sensible safety techniques for models many times...and all we get is more fearmongering, and links to posts where models WILLINGLY meet up with photographers that have no professional credentials, have no references, and lie through their teeth about who they are...and then complain that they were the victim of skeevy behavior when 10 minutes of investigating would have exposed them as frauds.

It's the same as crossing the street without looking both ways, and then claiming that cars are inherently dangerous when they hit you.

Yes, legit photographers have been known to victimize models...but a model that does due diligence significantly decreases her chances of having problems, and MM is loaded with models (some of them travel) that use these techniques, and have solid safety records.

Jolly Rauncher wrote:
This thread reeks of male privilege.

Can you be more specific?

What post are you referring to?

K I C K H A M wrote:
In the thread about model safety. A lot of the things I see don't specifically say, "THIS NEVER HAPPENS," however, they make a mockery out of "model safety," as if it isn't something to consider and it's the same thing as going to a public place alone.

Ok, then no one said "This Never Happens".

You're confusing what is being said here as an attempt to suggest that these things don't happen. The exact opposite is true. Most photographers understand how important that model safety is to their profession (or their hobby), and know that models won't collaborate with them unless they feel safe.

No one is suggesting that anything should be swept under the rug, but perspective and relative risk assessment is important in this discussion, or it degenerates into another thread that suggests that models are helpless little fawns that need to be protected from the next cocked-and-loaded penis that has a photographer attached to it.

Revenge Photography wrote:
Yes, because unwanted contact is worse when it happens to a female right?

For the record, I don't think males being molested is any more ok than females being molested, by anyone.

But what I think you are missing is that generally males are physically much stronger than females. So if the average woman makes unwanted contact with the average man he can physically stop her easily, whereas the average man can in theory kill the average woman with his bare hands.

Revenge Photography wrote:
The difference is males rarely complain if the roles are reversed, I've had topless or naked models come and sit on my lap without being invited to do so. I had a model jokingly push my face between her breasts in celebration of her new implants. Males just don't make a big deal out of it, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen, nor does it mean it's welcome.

Leah Marlow wrote:
I had one really gross experience. The photographer started making comments about all the "improvements" I could make to my body - eat less so I could bring out my "anorexic ribs" (his words), get my boobs done, get the fat in my belly transferred to my ass, start tightlacing...all while invading my personal "bubble". He seemed almost turned on by the idea of trying to fix me.

I carry a knive, and I pulled it on him. Problem solved.

(Didn't actually use it, it just scares the hell out of people!)

This scares me and I live three thousand miles away. 

Yes, the photographer was obnoxious but the situation did not call for a physical threat.  I read a lot of over reaction here on MM.

Leah Marlow wrote:
I had one really gross experience. The photographer started making comments about all the "improvements" I could make to my body - eat less so I could bring out my "anorexic ribs" (his words), get my boobs done, get the fat in my belly transferred to my ass, start tightlacing...all while invading my personal "bubble". He seemed almost turned on by the idea of trying to fix me.

I carry a knive, and I pulled it on him. Problem solved.

(Didn't actually use it, it just scares the hell out of people!)

You PULLED A KNIFE on someone for inappropriate comments?!?

Jolly Rauncher wrote:
I'm not calling all men total wastes of space here whatsoever, and I don't think anyone else here has either. There is a difference between "male privilege" and "gender bias".

I'm making an observation that a lot of the models in this thread who have had troubles with creep factors, are usually in a situation where some guy thinks he can either get away with non-consensual actions or feeling like they deserve them (touching, phone-stalking, unsolicited remarks about body type/improvements/etc). THAT is male privilege in the worst definition of the word.

Taking advantage of a woman (or man), or a situation of power, is simply unacceptable.  But women routinely get away with "non-consensual actions or feeling like they deserve them (touching, phone-stalking, unsolicited remarks about body type/improvements/etc)"  In general, a male who complained would be laughed at.  Considering that acceptable is, pretty much by definition, "gender bias."  As is claiming that all males are exploitative, or that all sexual harassment is males harassing females.  People with power, and that isn't always obvious power, tend to use it; sometimes inappropriately.

Image K wrote:

Echo_ wrote:
it's a problem in the industry in general. A lot of famous, professional models are coming out and talking about their unfortunate experiences with photographers.

It's unfortunate that they waited. If they had said something about it at the time that it happened, it would probably have saved other models from having to endure the behavior.

Trust me when I say...there are MANY occupations that are more dangerous than modeling.

I couldn't agree more. I have posted links to effective due diligence and sensible safety techniques for models many times...and all we get is more fearmongering, and links to posts where models WILLINGLY meet up with photographers that have no professional credentials, have no references, and lie through their teeth about who they are...and then complain that they were the victim of skeevy behavior when 10 minutes of investigating would have exposed them as frauds.

It's the same as crossing the street without looking both ways, and then claiming that cars are inherently dangerous when they hit you.

Yes, legit photographers have been known to victimize models...but a model that does due diligence significantly decreases her chances of having problems, and MM is loaded with models (some of them travel) that use these techniques, and have solid safety records.

No you see what a lot of them have been complaining about is the spiral of silence that is created because of the lack of power a model has. Some have said their bookers insinuated they do anything to shoot with certain photographers so they could increase thr likelyness of getting booked. The influence outweighed morality and most of them say everyone knows it happens but just choose to remain silent. It doesn't matter if there are other jobs that are more dangerous. The fact is that a lot of members try to deny there is a risk. How is it  fearmongering if education is also provided? See of it as a hook to a story and then education follows

Echo_ wrote:

No you see what a lot of them have been complaining about is the spiral of silence that is created because of the lack of power a model has. Some have said their bookers insinuated they do anything to shoot with certain photographers so they could increase thr likelyness of getting booked. The influence outweighed morality and most of them say everyone knows it happens but just choose to remain silent. It doesn't matter if there are other jobs that are more dangerous. The fact is that a lot of members try to deny there is a risk. How is it  fearmongering if education is also provided? See of it as a hook to a story and then education follows

In any sexual harassment case a key component is what did the person do.   Did you tell your harasser  to stop?   There is a old saying.   Silence infers permission.   If you are sent to a shoot via agency test or booked work and the photographer or MUA or anybody else gets out of line tell them to knock it off.   If they don't, leave.   If women want to be respected, demand it.   Yes it may cost you work.   It may cost you being with that agency but what is your self respect worth.   I've had jobs where the boss would make racial jokes.   I said to one, don't say that shi^ to me.   I'm not saying its easy.   Old Hollywood was known for the casting coach where actors including men would be asked too sleep with directors and producers for parts.   There were those who refused.

You have choices in life.   If you choose not to empower yourself.   You are to blame.

Image K wrote:
Ok, then no one said "This Never Happens".

You're confusing what is being said here as an attempt to suggest that these things don't happen. The exact opposite is true. Most photographers understand how important that model safety is to their profession (or their hobby), and know that models won't collaborate with them unless they feel safe.

No one is suggesting that anything should be swept under the rug, but perspective and relative risk assessment is important in this discussion, or it degenerates into another thread that suggests that models are helpless little fawns that need to be protected from the next cocked-and-loaded penis that has a photographer attached to it.

I disagree. I exaggerated slightly on both sides, but you can't say that what I quoted and other posts don't imply that modeling is as safe of a profession as any other (that "it never happens") and then say those saying "It's not THAT safe," are saying that "models are helpless little fawns that need to be protected from the next cocked-and-loaded penis that has a photographer attached to it."

Both are exaggerations. I don't like either of them.

If you're talking about other threads, then by all means, talk about them. But in this thread, I don't see anyone saying that you're going to be harassed/ abused/ or even hit on by every photographer you work with.

K I C K H A M wrote:
I disagree. I exaggerated slightly on both sides, but you can't say that what I quoted and other posts don't imply that modeling is as safe of a profession as any other (that "it never happens") and then say those saying "It's not THAT safe," are saying that "models are helpless little fawns that need to be protected from the next cocked-and-loaded penis that has a photographer attached to it."

Both are exaggerations. I don't like either of them.

If you're talking about other threads, then by all means, talk about them. But in this thread, I don't see anyone saying that you're going to be harassed/ abused/ or even hit on by every photographer you work with.

Nope, not "every photographer."  Half, yes.

Danielle Reid wrote:
About half the shoots I go to. There are creeps everywhere. I just deal with it long enough to get what was agreed upon then I'm out.

Revenge Photography wrote:
Yes, because unwanted contact is worse when it happens to a female right?

I never said that. At all. What I said was you should have said something, regardless of whether you were afraid she would laugh. Nobody sat there and forced you to keep your mouth shut, it isn't okay to be inappropriately touched no matter what gender you are.
What I was saying was that comparing having your experience versus a near-rape experience or stalking experience, is not the same, or even on the same level. Don't put words in my mouth.

Art of the nude wrote:
The weird thing is that AT SHOOTS, I tend to have a great time with models, totally innocently, aside from the nudity.  They are, or appear to be, completely comfortable, and none of it is sexual.  Just making pictures and chatting.

But when I come to the forums, I see / hear such anger and resentment and nastiness, it feels like I'm living in a different world.

While I may define or describe my shoots somewhat differently than you describe yours, that last bit is absolutely the same. I wouldn't continue with this activity for a week if it had the hostility and nastiness of the forum discussions.