login info join!
Forums > General Industry > Do models work harder on TF shoots? Search   Reply
Photographer
H A Z E
Posts: 82
London, England, United Kingdom


Having shot with TF and paid models on the same day, I couldn't help but notice that the models doing TF worked harder.  Now thinking back, the majority of TF models I have worked with have turned up on time and ready to work, willing to stay behind to help out and simply work with me to get the results.  Whereas most paid models have turned up late and want to leave early, want constant breaks, refuse TF but demand/expect high res or RAW files, and just simply have something to moan about all the time. Of course there are some exceptions.

When I am experimenting or updating my port I don't personally mind if I pay or do TF.  I did think that paying a model would spare me any hassle so that I can focus on what i want to achieve and not have to worry about anything else but I now find that paying models seem to be generating more hassle for me.

What are others experiencing?
Aug 29 13 07:54 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Darren Brade
Posts: 2,746
London, England, United Kingdom


I would say it's probably just the models you are picking.

You are using two types of criteria.
Aug 29 13 07:59 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25,319
Bath, England, United Kingdom


From what I've seen as an observer, most models tend to work harder on paid shoots because it's actually work rather than something they feel will benefit them or will create some art they'll be proud of.

That said, it's also pretty obvious that most people will tend to put in more effort when they're personally invested in the outcome, as is more usually the case with TF shoots.







Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano
www.stefanobrunesci.com
Aug 29 13 07:59 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mortonovich
Posts: 5,333
San Diego, California, US


That Italian Guy wrote:
From what I've seen as an observer, most models tend to work harder on paid shoots because it's actually work rather than something they feel will benefit them or will create some art they'll be proud of.

That said, it's also pretty obvious that most people will tend to put in more effort when they're personally invested in the outcome, as is more usually the case with TF shoots.







Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano
www.stefanobrunesci.com

So very true.

Aug 29 13 08:02 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Model
Anna Adrielle
Posts: 18,762
Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium


to me it makes no difference; paid or tf. I will give it my all.

The difference however, for me, is that with TF shoots it's usually concepts that I helped come up with, a team that I really admire, shots that I've been wanting to do for quite some time... Where as paid is usually not very benefical to my portfolio (hence the payment). So the personal motivation is different.

But as far as professionality (showing up on time & prepared) and results go; I'll work just as hard!
Aug 29 13 08:04 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
H A Z E
Posts: 82
London, England, United Kingdom


That Italian Guy wrote:
That said, it's also pretty obvious that most people will tend to put in more effort when they're personally invested in the outcome, as is more usually the case with TF shoots.

Thank you for your input, I do agree with this.

Aug 29 13 08:15 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Christopher Barber
Posts: 57
Albuquerque, New Mexico, US


I've been really lucky I guess: models work really hard on both paid and TF shoots, don't ask for breaks, are pleased when offered food and water, offer to help carry gear and clean up or stow equipment at the end of the shoot, and express appreciation for MM quality JPEG images.  I'm an amateur; so probably don't ask as much of models as a professional shooting for a customer -- that may be a factor.
Aug 29 13 08:41 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Catnapping
Posts: 3,771
Brooklyn, New York, US


A model with a good work ethic that is invested in the project at hand performs well, paid or TF, in my experience.

A model with a poor work ethic that would rather be doing something else doesn't do that great of a job, paid or TF, in my experience.
Aug 29 13 08:52 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Babalon Salome
Posts: 3,499
Hamburg, Hamburg, Germany


Anna Adrielle wrote:
to me it makes no difference; paid or tf. I will give it my all.

The difference however, for me, is that with TF shoots it's usually concepts that I helped come up with, a team that I really admire, shots that I've been wanting to do for quite some time... Where as paid is usually not very benefical to my portfolio (hence the payment). So the personal motivation is different.

But as far as professionality (showing up on time & prepared) and results go; I'll work just as hard!

This exactly.

Aug 29 13 09:01 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
JAE
Posts: 2,103
West Chester, Pennsylvania, US


Sounds like you are hiring the wrong models. Every model I have paid has been awesome.
Aug 29 13 09:18 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 11,412
Oakland Acres, Iowa, US


Personally, I haven't noticed any difference in how hard paid vs. trade models work at a shoot.  Overall, I've been very impressed with the energy most TF models I've worked with have put into the shoot.  If there's any difference it's that paid models tend to have a bit more experience and tend to have slightly better follow through. 

The biggest difference between a paid shoot and trade shoot is how much money I part with.
Aug 29 13 09:22 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Swank Photography
Posts: 18,995
Key West, Florida, US


H A Z E wrote:
Having shot with TF and paid models on the same day, I couldn't help but notice that the models doing TF worked harder.  Now thinking back, the majority of TF models I have worked with have turned up on time and ready to work, willing to stay behind to help out and simply work with me to get the results.  Whereas most paid models have turned up late and want to leave early, want constant breaks, refuse TF but demand/expect high res or RAW files, and just simply have something to moan about all the time. Of course there are some exceptions.

When I am experimenting or updating my port I don't personally mind if I pay or do TF.  I did think that paying a model would spare me any hassle so that I can focus on what i want to achieve and not have to worry about anything else but I now find that paying models seem to be generating more hassle for me.

What are others experiencing?

Quite honestly, all the models that I have worked with (whether paid or tf) has worked their asses off in front of the camera.

Christ, several years ago, I even had one show up with a damn fever because she wanted to work with me so bad and was refusing to let a fever get to her (I ended up sending her home though, poor thing.).

Aug 29 13 09:23 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
VictoriasProductions
Posts: 6
San Antonio, Texas, US


H A Z E wrote:
Having shot with TF and paid models on the same day, I couldn't help but notice that the models doing TF worked harder.  Now thinking back, the majority of TF models I have worked with have turned up on time and ready to work, willing to stay behind to help out and simply work with me to get the results.  Whereas most paid models have turned up late and want to leave early, want constant breaks, refuse TF but demand/expect high res or RAW files, and just simply have something to moan about all the time. Of course there are some
When I am experimenting or updating my port I don't personally mind if I pay or do TF.  I did think that paying a model would spare me any hassle so that I can focus on what i want to achieve and not have to worry about anything else but I now find that paying models seem to be generating more hassle for
me.
What are others experiencing?

Ive been lucky and I try to weed out the ones who are all about the money who are counting the minutes to get the max for least amount work.  Ive Tend to do TF a lot more, as i am always finding new, inexperience, models and need to teach them. That tends to take my time. They are trying to build up experience and a Portfolio.or photos and videos for their own site. I enjoy these shoots better as I don't have to worry as much about the time and Money ! TF they seem much more excited about it . When they have experience, I always pay them. I Know that they are going to show up on time, and be ready to go, since i have worked with them before!
  I do have one Beauty who is always late,(She gets lost on the way to the shoot) always takes forever to get ready, but is very good once she is ready She is stunner so I schedule others, to work while she is primping ! I also let her know her time starts when she is in front of the camera. So it works out in the end! Victoria

Aug 29 13 09:25 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,304
Salem, Oregon, US


i haven't had a problem with paid models although one was distracted by her phone because the charger wasn't working right.
Aug 29 13 09:47 am  Link  Quote 
Model
JadeDRed
Posts: 5,381
London, England, United Kingdom


Not PC to say it but I probably work harder on paid shoots.
Aug 29 13 09:51 am  Link  Quote 
Retoucher
LightFeatherRetouch
Posts: 352
Prague, Prague, Czech Republic


In my personal experience as a photographer, I feel that there are many shades of gray. However I don't think motivation comes from money, mostly comes from if she believes in what you are doing or not:

Case 1) Model believes in your work, and she is there because she wants to (unpaid).

Case 2) Model believes in your work, and she is getting paid (double motivation).

Case 3) Model thinks you suck and she just came to get the money.

At the end of the day, even if you buy a models time, you don't necessarily buy her motivation...
Aug 29 13 10:07 am  Link  Quote 
Model
GQ The Couture Model
Posts: 316
Seattle, Washington, US


If you take this business seriously you treat all projects the same.
Aug 29 13 10:12 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Dave McDermott
Posts: 267
Coill Dubh, Kildare, Ireland


It depends on the person, although from my experience, paid models tend to be more punctual. I've never once had a paid model flake on me.
Aug 29 13 10:18 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Model
Koryn
Posts: 36,207
Boston, Massachusetts, US


I don't think I work harder on one or the other, but I will definitely say I've been screwed over about 10000% more on trade shoots. The last time was a couple months back. You invest a ton on energy either way, but many photographers seem to feel no remorse at all about never sending you any images from a trade shoot, whereas I've only ever been screwed over in paid shoots twice. You pretty much always get your cash after the shoot. It's often like pulling teeth to get images back from people, and many just disappear after you put your time in.

At least with paid shoots, I KNOW I'm going to be getting fair compensation afterward. With trade, it's basically a gamble.
Aug 29 13 10:19 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Josie Lee
Posts: 740
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Catnapping wrote:
A model with a good work ethic that is invested in the project at hand performs well, paid or TF, in my experience.

A model with a poor work ethic that would rather be doing something else doesn't do that great of a job, paid or TF, in my experience.

+1

Aug 29 13 10:29 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,304
Salem, Oregon, US


it's almost backwards in a way. the guys who pay would be the ones who could get images back to you on a trade shoot (and maybe they already provide images along with compensation). whereas the trade guys are maybe just in it to hang with a model in which case they should be the ones paying for the companionship.

the trade shooters i know (including myself) do get images to the models although sometimes it can take a bit (which is why i dropbox them a full session gallery after the shoot).

to me not getting images back to a model within a reasonable amount of time (at least without a good explanation) should be a violation of the site rules same as soliciting for adult work or any other violation that could get you banned. or maybe they need a three strikes type of thing.

Koryn Locke wrote:
At least with paid shoots, I KNOW I'm going to be getting fair compensation afterward. With trade, it's basically a gamble.

Aug 29 13 10:29 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Model
Koryn
Posts: 36,207
Boston, Massachusetts, US


ontherocks wrote:
it's almost backwards in a way. the guys who pay would be the ones who could get images back to you on a trade shoot (and maybe they already provide images along with compensation). whereas the trade guys are maybe just in it to hang with a model in which case they should be the ones paying for the companionship.

the trade shooters i know (including myself) do get images to the models although sometimes it can take a bit (which is why i dropbox them a full session gallery after the shoot).

to me not getting images back to a model within a reasonable amount of time (at least without a good explanation) should be a violation of the site rules same as soliciting for adult work or any other violation that could get you banned. or maybe they need a three strikes type of thing.

well the thing is, most of the people who pay you, it's because you don't want or can't use their photos in your portfolio. I get a lot of solicitations for TFP from people who talk about how good they are about getting images to the models they shoot with. That's all fine and good but most of these folks have a very limited skill set, flat lighting, and work of a quality that would actually drag down an experienced model's portfolio, rather than enhance it. So ultimately, it doesn't matter whether the people who would pay you are also the people who would follow through with returning images

Aug 29 13 11:44 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Bunny Bombshell
Posts: 11,752
Huntington, West Virginia, US


I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I give the same amount of effort into every shoot, compensation does not factor into that. Generalizing all models just because you had someone slack off isn't fair. Don't paint everyone with the same brush
Aug 29 13 02:16 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
JadeDRed
Posts: 5,381
London, England, United Kingdom


That Italian Guy wrote:
That said, it's also pretty obvious that most people will tend to put in more effort when they're personally invested in the outcome, as is more usually the case with TF shoots.

I'm personally invested in the outcome of all my shoots, as my desired outcome, or at least the proof of it, would be to be hired again.

But then my dad left when I was young so I have a desperate need for reassurance from older, male figures :p

Aug 29 13 02:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
howard r
Posts: 485
Los Angeles, California, US


all i know is that i had more than 50% of my models cancel at the last minute because of some terrible "emergency" when it was straight tfp, and once i started tossing in $100, i got the cancellation rate down to 20%.

i guess it's safe to assume that my money prevented dozens of emergencies from ever occurring.
Aug 29 13 05:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Skyler Bleu
Posts: 475
Albany, Oregon, US


H A Z E wrote:
Having shot with TF and paid models on the same day, I couldn't help but notice that the models doing TF worked harder.  Now thinking back, the majority of TF models I have worked with have turned up on time and ready to work, willing to stay behind to help out and simply work with me to get the results.  Whereas most paid models have turned up late and want to leave early, want constant breaks, refuse TF but demand/expect high res or RAW files, and just simply have something to moan about all the time. Of course there are some exceptions.

When I am experimenting or updating my port I don't personally mind if I pay or do TF.  I did think that paying a model would spare me any hassle so that I can focus on what i want to achieve and not have to worry about anything else but I now find that paying models seem to be generating more hassle for me.

What are others experiencing?

I give my best to both pair or tf. The tf is something I usually want to do or planned in advance and the paid is something that will give me a paycheck later. Doesn't make sense to slack on either.

Sep 08 13 11:06 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Shot By Adam
Posts: 5,616
Las Vegas, Nevada, US


LightFeatherRetouch wrote:
In my personal experience as a photographer, I feel that there are many shades of gray. However I don't think motivation comes from money, mostly comes from if she believes in what you are doing or not:

Case 1) Model believes in your work, and she is there because she wants to (unpaid).

Case 2) Model believes in your work, and she is getting paid (double motivation).

Case 3) Model thinks you suck and she just came to get the money.

At the end of the day, even if you buy a models time, you don't necessarily buy her motivation...

This. I couldn't have articulated it better myself!

Sep 08 13 11:15 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Beautifully Soft Focus
Posts: 527
Peoria, Illinois, US


OP ... Just the opposite is what I have observed. I've only shot two or three TF models that even come close to the paid models I have shot. I'd venture, if you are running into the issues you describe, you need to check references more closely.  Most of the paid models I have worked with have been nothing short of amazing wink

Be easy,

Alvin

PS: I really hate to see the hate  sometimes thrown on paid models ... most (90% or better) I've worked with, are hard working professionals and love what they do and give 110% to help me create memorable images.
Sep 08 13 11:22 am  Link  Quote 
Clothing Designer
GRMACK
Posts: 1,765
Bakersfield, California, US


Pros work less effortlessly on shoots, imho.  They may give the "appearance" of not working hard to get the same job done as a newbie TFP model.

It may be an "illusion" to you that newbies work harder as you also need to supply more direction to them.  You can train someone all day and think: "Wow, they sure seem to be working hard to do this job!" whereas someone already with those skills may not need any training at all and they might even teach you something.

Newbies always seem to carry in some drama with them.  Experienced ones don't and leave that stuff behind as they know the job at hand and know the gig.
Sep 08 13 11:50 am  Link  Quote 
Model
K I C K H A M
Posts: 14,630
Los Angeles, California, US


Sounds like you're paying the wrong models.


Why don't you use the girls you know and like for your paid shoots?
Sep 08 13 12:58 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
FallenEcho
Posts: 1,177
Escondido, California, US


K I C K H A M wrote:
Sounds like you're paying the wrong models.


Why don't you use the girls you know and like for your paid shoots?

This!

I work hard for my shoots it doesn't matter if it is paid or not.

Sep 08 13 01:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Volition Graphics
Posts: 394
Seattle, Washington, US


I haven't really noticed a difference in quality/effort, (flake rate, yes).

As a model knowing that your picture is going to end up online with your name attached to it, why wouldn't you do your best?

Same goes for the photographer. I don't want half ass pics I did with my name attached to it. Hence, I give 100% every time, paid or not.
Sep 08 13 01:33 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
WIP
Posts: 15,375
Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom


That Italian Guy wrote:
From what I've seen as an observer, most models tend to work harder on paid shoots because it's actually work rather than something they feel will benefit them or will create some art they'll be proud of.

That said, it's also pretty obvious that most people will tend to put in more effort when they're personally invested in the outcome, as is more usually the case with TF shoots.







Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano
www.stefanobrunesci.com

Commissioned or non commissioned the same effort should be put in.
Every professional outside of MM (MM being a world to it self) will agree with my statement.

Sep 08 13 01:50 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marin Photography NYC
Posts: 7,038
New York, New York, US


I think if they like and believe in the concept and your abilities that will make them want to give it their all - paid or not. You have to sell your vision to them and make it important to them as well...If they aren't receptive, try someone else.
Sep 08 13 02:01 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ImagineAerie
Posts: 402
Plano, Texas, US


Depends on the model and their character.
Sep 08 13 11:01 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
kinda blurry
Posts: 7
Adelaide, South Australia, Australia


K I C K H A M wrote:
Sounds like you're paying the wrong models.


Why don't you use the girls you know and like for your paid shoots?

+1
The models whose work impressed me on earlier TF shoots are the first ones that I ring when a commercial job comes along. I'm seldom disappointed, and find the collaborative working relationship only gets better bc we know and trust each other.

Sep 10 13 07:29 pm  Link  Quote 
  Search   Reply



main | browse | casting/travel | forums | shout box | help | advertising | contests | share | join the mayhem

more modelmayhem on: | | | edu

©2006-2014 ModelMayhem.com. All Rights Reserved.
MODEL MAYHEM is a registered trademark.
Toggle Worksafe Mode: Off | On
Terms | Privacy | Careers