J Armstrong Photography wrote:
I've been a member of MM for a while now and have scheduled about 6 shoots with different models since March.
Every single time I have been stood up. Half of the models originally contacted me to shoot!

I have scheduled a few shoots outside of using MM and, the model showed up and turned out fine. What is it about this site that makes these models unreliable?

Is this just me?

According to the Search Results, no, it's not just you

J Armstrong Photography wrote:
I've been a member of MM for a while now and have scheduled about 6 shoots with different models since March.
Every single time I have been stood up. Half of the models originally contacted me to shoot!

I have scheduled a few shoots outside of using MM and, the model showed up and turned out fine. What is it about this site that makes these models unreliable?

Is this just me?

The majority of people on this site, both models and photographers are not professionals and they act accordingly.  Were these shoots paid or trade since models don't have much incentive to show up for a trade shoot.  Did these models have experience or were they newbies.  The bottom line is that you get what you pay for.  There are plenty of reliable professional models that will show up according to schedule as long as they are being adequately compensated.

Lana Belle wrote:
No definitely not you. May I make a suggestion of perhaps checking references of these so called models before booking them. Also, looking at the port of the models if someone hasn't updated their port in over a year that is a pretty good indication they are going to flake out.

I certainly extensively check their portfolio and profile. They have since done shoots, of much lower quality I might add.

The Majority of the shoots were TFP. After no one showing up, I decided to find a 'reputable' model to hire. Same thing over again.


I currently [strongly] prefer TFP. I'm really not a huge fan of paying another artist (model) to collaborate on non-profit art.

HOTTIE SHOTS wrote:
I have found that the flake rate is 50%-66%. 

So if I want to shoot a model I set 3 and usually one shows.  I have found this flake rate applies across the internet based model network, including other sites and Facebook. 

I wanted 12 models for a video shoot and I scheduled and confirmed 38 the day before.......15 showed up.  I have even found that the same flake rate applies when I have had paying opportunities.

So don't get discouraged, just realize this is the way it is and start setting 3 for every 1 you need.

Thanks for the advice, I really appreciate it!

Alabaster Crowley wrote:
Work with professionals.

Or that.

J Armstrong Photography wrote:
I've been a member of MM for a while now and have scheduled about 6 shoots with different models since March.
Every single time I have been stood up. Half of the models originally contacted me to shoot!

I have scheduled a few shoots outside of using MM and, the model showed up and turned out fine. What is it about this site that makes these models unreliable?

Is this just me?

No, you're not doing anything wrong. This happens to many other MM photographers.

I used to do 5-6 shoots per month. Now I'm only doing 1, even though I'm contacting about 25 models to do a shoot. By the way, I do paid shoots. Meaning I pay models to shoot with me.

In my opinion, this is one of the main reasons why MM's overall activity has declined significantly during this past year.

Bare Essential Photos wrote:
No, you're not doing anything wrong. This happens to many other MM photographers.
...
In my opinion, this is one of the main reasons why MM's overall activity has declined significantly during this past year.

I really do appreciate all of the advice- I was really hoping for some TFP projects to work out. I have 10+ year experience doing nature photography and I know I have more to offer than just a GWC.

Alabaster Crowley wrote:
Work with professionals.

This!

Jim McSmith wrote:
My previous two bookings flaked out despite offering a good fee. The last one there was getting $250. And they both claimed professionalism, experience and reliability.

Did you get references?

J Armstrong Photography wrote:
I'm really not a huge fan of paying another artist (model) to collaborate on non-profit art.

Perhaps models simply feel like there's very little in it for them if that's the case.
Clearly something is not quite right here, there's something giving them a reason to second guess the prospect of working with you.

I've never heard of such a high drop out rate, sure I've had models flake out, even a few at the last minute without so much as a phone call, but nothing at all like the rate you're describing.

Try to keep in mind that a model must also feel like it is worth her/his time and effort. Just because you feel like you have a lot to offer, it does not mean everybody else will automatically feel the same way.

It may turn out that a financial offering will aid your ability to maintain future bookings with models.

Just a suggestion.

J Armstrong Photography wrote:
I've been a member of MM for a while now and have scheduled about 6 shoots with different models since March.
Every single time I have been stood up. Half of the models originally contacted me to shoot!

I have scheduled a few shoots outside of using MM and, the model showed up and turned out fine. What is it about this site that makes these models unreliable?

Is this just me?

Your first paragraph epitomizes my highly frustrating first year on MM, I got model's that didn't turn up (flakes). Model's that contacted me professing their undying love for my work, and then when I said "lets shoot" BAM...!!!! They slapped me the rates hands (Baiters). Models that would contact me quarterly saying let's shoot, we'd start organizing, and then after a few post back and forth they'd literally vanish (Houdini's), and the list goes on.

It might not be any consolation to you, but if you think it's only a model problem you are sorely mistaken, every bad creative does these kinds of things that's the plight of MM.

At whatever rate you'll naturally gain the experience of filtering the good eggs from the bad eggs, there are a number of tell tell signs that have proven to be fruitful in establishing the non-shitters from the bull-shitters.

Alabaster Crowley wrote:
Work with professionals.

Generally agree. Same with offering to hire them for their time but even that's iffy. I've found if a person's going to bail (& by bail, I mean so last minute I can't get an opportunity to fill the slot), they'll do so regardless of what you offer to pay them.

To the OP if you're having trouble having models book & then bailing...you could try getting an off-MM email address or get their FB account & message through there or get their phone number & call/text.

Could also try making friends with your fellow regional photographers. We often compare notes on who we think the other may work well with a particular model & who are ones to be weary of. Same with pointing a "good" model in the other's direction. Don't kid yourself though, models do this to.

MM can be a good networking site but its communications system leaves a lot to be desired. Messages get easily buried, especially if one is on the road. Sometimes messages get received, sometimes not (even had a few unread ones mysteriously pop up months after the fact). Sometimes unread messages get bolded while I use the site on my mobile, sometimes they don't.

J Armstrong Photography wrote:
I've been a member of MM for a while now and have scheduled about 6 shoots with different models since March.
Every single time I have been stood up. Half of the models originally contacted me to shoot!

I have scheduled a few shoots outside of using MM and, the model showed up and turned out fine. What is it about this site that makes these models unreliable?

Is this just me?

Your post does not belong here.  This is the section of the forum where models have their own topics.   You could post this in the section "Photographer Talk" where you might get a little more sympathy preaching to the choir.  Or this could be considered a rant and should have been placed in "Off Topic!" 

Yes. I'm playing forum police ... but I do not understand why so many people have other people flake on them.  I've had one model flake on me back in March of 2006 ... and she was not on this site at all.  Honestly, I have never had a model from this site flake on me yet.   I gave a late cancel on one traveling model of about 38 hours before shooting due to an eye infection.  Otherwise there is no canceling in my life. 

I am considering charging for teaching others my vetting process as it has worked great for me for over 30 years of my doing all my own casting calls.  Read this locked thread for some tips;

https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … 526&page=1

J Armstrong Photography wrote:
I currently [strongly] prefer TFP. I'm really not a huge fan of paying another artist (model) to collaborate on non-profit art.

It will take a few months to understand the MM culture in your area. 

The first thing to do is forget about ALL MM models being artists.  If that is your expectation of MM, you're in the wrong place.  Very few are artists.  Most models hope at some point to make money, and only do TF to build a port where they can charge.

No matter how you feel about paying for modeling...it is a service...and has value...and as such it is worth something...either in trade or in $$ compensation.  You aren't very far from Ann Arbor, and I see a lot of college girls in the MM search that look like they would take $25 to $50 for an hour or two of shooting.  I would look there to build my port...and I think you could do it in just a few months. (As a side note...it would have been great if you could have started back at NMU...great college with a lot of beautiful women of Swedish/Norlandic descent.)

And if you want to do model photography....your port should only show models.  THis is because all a potential model wants to see is what you have done with other models.

When I signed on here I got discouraged just as you have...and most of that was due to misplaced expectations.  Stay with things and they will work out.

J Armstrong Photography wrote:
What is it about this site that makes these models unreliable?

Lazy.

J Armstrong Photography wrote:
I've been a member of MM for a while now and have scheduled about 6 shoots with different models since March.
Every single time I have been stood up. Half of the models originally contacted me to shoot!

I have scheduled a few shoots outside of using MM and, the model showed up and turned out fine. What is it about this site that makes these models unreliable?

Is this just me?

Hi,
I could say the same about photographers in my case too.

I've come to the conclusion that not everyone who wants to shoot, (myself included,) will necessarily have the opportunity when it comes down to it. This could be due to work, life, who knows?

The biggest factor is in how someone deals with that.

I think the reasons that models bail versus photographer could have some similarities and then another totally different issue in that sometimes it might be easy to say you are a model but, harder to actually 'be' a model!
Jen

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
Another possibility in some cases is someone may have given the photographer a bad reference. I certainly did this with one photographer on MM a while ago when asked for a reference as another photographer told her I worked with him (in fact I hadn't though was booked and he acted inappropriately) . I know said model did not contact him again as a result of what I told her.

there's a lot of photographers into that game as well. especially when a new model comes on the block that has some potential.

Jim McSmith wrote:
there's a lot of photographers into that game as well. especially when a new model comes on the block that has some potential.

Possibly there is sometimes an element of photographers putting off models working with other photographers locally yes. At the eleventh hour, this may result in/explain drying up of comms.
That of course can be down to professional competition/envy, wanting to keep a model to themselves etc. or a genuine belief that working with said photographer won't help their portfolio.

But there are also of course times when references turn out genuinely negative deservedly so.

In any case on such occasion the model may simply evade contact rather than tell photographer.

The key is 'new model'. New models are going to be influenced by others. Including jealous boyfriends, parents etc if say there's nudity/glamour in a port.
Simply if you need reliability a new model should not be considered.

I've suggested before now a probation period for new models. That is, if they have no experience they have to get three stars indicating three completed bookings and some record of reliability.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
I've suggested before now a probation period for new models. That is, if they have no experience they have to get three stars indicating three completed bookings and some record of reliability.

That would certainly save time. I have scheduled with models with dozens of bookings to only have them flake as well.
Jackson, MI is an extremely lazy area. Money isn't even motivation anymore.

J Armstrong Photography wrote:
Thanks guys and gals for all the support.

I did in fact get started at NMU. I was a staff photographer and did a lot of work with the theater program. That's what interested me in model-based photography.

You and I come from a very similar background then!  I was a teenager trying to be a lead actor, the rock star ...etc .but was always a walk on in high school.  So by the time I got to junior college theater, I was working behind the scenes and that meant shootinig the promo pictures.  You know of course why we have "understudies" and any smart director will discuss alternative scenes with an actor should get sick or missing in action.   

Since there was not a legit modeling agency within 100 miles of me, I did all my own casting calls.  People who can act or dance can usually make great models.  Over the years, I've learned how to interview and use my intuation as to who is really dependable and who is not.  When I tell you that I have an exceptionally low "flake rate" ... it's not to belittle you, but to encourage you to fine tune the things you do in vetting models.  That's why I hope you take a look at the link I posted.  I've rewritten it since then, but you should get some ideas from it. 

You are not alone in your frustration of models flaking on you, it can happen to anyone and with most events that involve people showing up.  If I didn't work at vetting, then I would probably have a much higher rate of flakes too.  It's not something to take for granted.  I plan on people flaking and they don't! 

J Armstrong Photography wrote:
It's a bit difficult to get stay in contact with other photographers from the Ann Arbor - Detroit area. It's a big ego/attitude area. I've gotten private messages since this thread opened from local photographers telling me my work is s***, to give up and "my portfolio is better". (Whose work is no better than mine, mind you)

Critiquing in this section of the forum is against the rules.  It's a drag that anyone would blame your photography for flakes!  There are always arguements in these forums over TFP vs Paid ... which I understand that many people here are not doing this for free.  The point I think is important is in the negotiation process that the model should feel like they are getting something worthwhile in a TFP as much as the photographer.  It does always work out that way, so money should help to equal the process.  Some people are just not that interested in our work and you should learn to watch for the red flags to avoid them. 

J Armstrong Photography wrote:
I have followed up with references as well. I could understand if it was my fault, if I wasn't shooting with models outside of MM.  But, "see you tomorrow" and never hearing from any of them again is pretty strange in my option.

That was pure rudeness on the part of the model!  It should not have anything to do with this site.

Since I find models through various methods, I communicate with each model using multiple methods too.  That means I will not depend on using only a websites message system, but instead I exchange emails, phone numbers and even physical addresses.  I will send messages through Facebook, email, or use the MM messages, but I want to be sure that they are who they say they are so I google them. 

Typically in the planning stages, I will exchange text messages and also make at least one phone call where I can hear the models voice.  None of these communications need to be long, as most are short just to confirm things.  I wont always ask for references, but I do notice who they have worked with.  As much as I'm writing about it, my vetting process is not complicated or that time consuming, but it must be done.

JGLabs wrote:
I have a pretty low no-show rate, about 1 in 5. So I've been pretty happy with the results.

And I've never had a complete no-show. I've had them call me 5 minutes before and cancel, but I've never had a no-show without the model contacting me.

It's great that you have never had a complete no show. For me and the photographers I've worked with, I have had similar situations (mutual or photographer initiated cancellations due to weather, traffic, delays, MUA availability changes etc) but also always with some notice prior.

I did once experience problems with other models being no-shows though. For one photoshoot (not through MM) with me and about 10 other models, I was the only model that showed up on time (one more model came later) with most of the cancellations (models and few MUAs) giving little notice. We still went ahead with the shoot though, and I got some great pictures from it!