Tony Lawrence wrote:
Our music was at one time postive.
Remember Marvin Gaye's Mercy Me?
Now, its Bitch better have my money.

Ya, but even "white" music is full of "anger". Is it really anger though or is it just generational one-upmanship (yes, I may have made up a word)? I mean, I think it's, in some cases, just youth trying to one-up the last generation and be more "daring". When I was a kid, it was considered rebellious to grow your hair long and have an earring, now, it's how MANY piercings do you have? But, I'm no expert, so these are just ponderings.

phoenixbun wrote:
stop argueing and start saving lives!! This is an issue of live and its values. People need to come together and help. go to the link below and do something about it!!!

https://www.redcross.org/donate/redir.a … D=09022005

DO NOT GET GOD AND RELIGION CONFUSED.
...."there are as many gods as there are flowers, yet we call religion our friend"
My god does not have a shrine or church.. he lives in our hearts.
___________________________
WEEKLY REVIEW

In the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina the United States
declared disasters in Alabama, Florida, Louisiana, and
Mississippi. Taken together, the 90,000-square-mile
disaster area would be the twelfth largest
state. Emergencies were declared in Colorado, Georgia,
North Carolina, Oklahoma, Tennessee, Utah, and West
Virginia. Eighty percent of New Orleans was flooded after
levees were breached by rising water. "I don't think,"
said President George W. Bush, "anyone anticipated the
breach of the levees." Homeland Security Secretary Michael
Chertoff said the disaster "exceeded the foresight of the
planners, and maybe anybody's foresight." The flooding had
been anticipated by National Geographic magazine,
Scientific American magazine, the Times-Picayune
newspaper, FEMA, and Mr. Bill. Condoleezza Rice attended a
musical in New York City, where she was booed. She also
went shoe shopping. A fellow shopper was thrown out of the
store after yelling "How dare you shop for shoes while
thousands are dying or homeless?" Dick Cheney canceled a
trip to the oil sands of Alberta, Canada, and Senator Bill
Frist called for a permanent repeal to the estate
tax. President Bush decided to end his month-long vacation
two days early and return to Washington, D.C. During his
trip, Air Force One flew low over New Orleans. "This was a
natural disaster," said Bush.

The situation in New Orleans quickly worsened, but little
help appeared. Shelters set up at the Superdome and New
Orleans Convention Center became squalid, hot, and
dangerous. The Louisiana National Guard patrolled the
Superdome with machine guns as flood victims, locked
behind metal barricades, shouted "we need more water."
Cigarettes in the Superdome sold for $10 a pack, and a
brisk market in anti-diuretics, which allowed people to
avoid the overflowing bathrooms, developed. "We are like
animals," said a woman. Shootings, carjackings, and
looting were reported across New Orleans. Thousands of
people, most of them poor, were stranded for several days;
many died waiting for rescue. "Nobody's coming to get us,"
said Aaron Broussard, president of Jefferson parish,
weeping. "For God sakes, shut up and send us somebody."
The effectiveness of FEMA head Mike Brown, who was fired
from his previous job supervising the International
Arabian Horse Association, was called into question after
he repeatedly claimed not to have known the severity of
the storm or the location of several thousand
refugees. "There is way too many fricking . . . cooks in
the kitchen," said New Orleans Mayor C. Ray Nagin. "George
Bush," said rapper Kanye West, "doesn't care about black
people." About 57,000 troops, many assigned to combat
operations, entered the New Orleans area. "This place is
going to look like Little Somalia," said a brigadier
general. The Superdome and Convention Center were finally
evacuated, but evacuees were not allowed to take their
pets with them. "Snowball!" cried a little boy after
police took away his dog. "Snowball!" It was announced
that it could take up to six months for New Orleans to be
pumped out, and another three months for it to
dry. Officials estimated that 10,000 people had been
killed in the flood; about the same number of people
remained in the city. Fifty-five countries offered aid to
the United States. Cuba offered 1,100 doctors, Iran
offered humanitarian aid, China offered $5 million, and
Venezuela offered fuel at a reduced cost. The United
States was performing a "needs assessment" to decide whose
help to accept. Some Christian extremists declared that
the hurricane was punishment by God. "New Orleans now is
free of Southern Decadence," said the pastor of the New
Covenant Fellowship of New Orleans, "and the sodomites,
the witchcraft workers, false religion--it's free of all
of those things now." Many other Christians simply prayed.

In Iraq nearly 1,000 Shiite pilgrims were killed during a
march across the Al-Aaimmah bridge when rumors of a
suicide bomber in the crowd caused a stampede. Most of the
victims were women and children who died from trampling
or, after they fell or jumped into the Tigris River, from
drowning. President Bush declared that U.S. troops needed
to stay in Iraq to keep the country's oil out of the hands
of terrorists. Federal prosecutors accused eight officials
from KPMG and a lawyer of conspiracy for helping wealthy
people evade at least $2.5 billion in taxes, and a man
named Glenn Allen Powell pleaded guilty to taking as much
as $1.25 million in kickbacks in Iraq while working for
Halliburton subsidiary Kellogg Brown & Root. Chief Justice
of the United States William H. Rehnquist died, and
President Bush nominated John G. Roberts, Jr. as a
replacement. Scientists announced that they had created
mice that could regrow amputated extremities, and a plane
crash in Indonesia killed at least 147 people. The Bush
Administration was working on a new set of pollution
controls intended to make it harder to sue power
plants. There was a condom shortage in Uganda; a
U.N. representative attributed the shortage to
restrictions placed on U.S.-provided HIV/AIDS-prevention
funds. Susan Wood, chief of women's health at the FDA,
resigned over the FDA's refusal to allow emergency
contraception to be sold over the counter in spite of
"scientific and clinical evidence, fully evaluated and
recommended by the professional staff here." Up to twelve
more tropical storms were expected through
November. National Preparedness Month began.

-- Paul Ford

You forgot to mention Bob Denver died.

Mike Cummings wrote:

Why do black children need to know the color of someone that wrote a book or made 1000 things from peanuts? Your answer above is "Because its how we learn respect for ourselves and our history."

You are the problem and not the solution. You are segregating yourself and your children, you are no better then the Klan in this regard.

Our History should not be taught on racial terms. History is history, who did what, when did they do it and why did they do it. When we teach our children history the race of a person is moot. If we teach about George Washington Carver, he is a scientist, teacher, inventor and a fascinating person. He is not a black scientist, teacher, inventor and a fascinating person. We teach what he did and if he had difficulties in his life because of skin tone, we address that as part of his story. The same way we would address the difficulties of Beethoven's deafness.

Get out of the US and THEM mentality. Content not color.

Hey Tony, take a swing at this one.

David Moyle wrote:

Ya, but even "white" music is full of "anger". Is it really anger though or is it just generational one-upmanship (yes, I may have made up a word)? I mean, I think it's, in some cases, just youth trying to one-up the last generation and be more "daring".

Maybe for the popular stupid bands out right now but not true "white angry" music. Some of the best lyrics I have ever heard are from anger. Anger is an emotion. Nothing wrong with that. It is real anger with REAL bands not the fake bands you hear out there.. "on the radio".

"bitch gimme my money" isnt anger thats stupidity.

theda wrote:
But from a purely factual perspective, much of what you listed is wrong. 

White middle class men are eligable for various types of grants (which would be a form of government assistance). They are also elligable for FEMA.

FEMA is equal opportunity. they dropped the ball on this one.
Middle Class males are NOT eligible for a ton of grants.
I could not obtain a SINGLE grant for my school. And believe me, I applied for tons of them.
In my Graduating class (trade school because I would not be able to afford college) The only ones that managed to get grants were "Minorities" and "Poor".
The rest of us got loans, which it takes forever to pay off when things go bad.

They may get points on colllege applications if they are from a different region or background than most of the student body (example: NSU gives whites minority scholarships because most of their students are black).

That is true, and that represents a small small portion of the whole.
I have seen it on Government Service Exams, I have seen it on College entrance exams, I have seen it on GSC applications.
I can tell you a story about a guy who scored perfect on a postal exam for placement in a post office, only to be "outscored" by a black female that got an 81. (10 for black 10 for female = 101 which was more than 100)
Did she deserve that job more than him?

No one one middle class or higher gets tax breaks just for themselves.

Please please tell me you are not saying that there is no Rich Only Tax breaks.
SSI Cap - right off the top of my head is  one I can name.

Here is an interesting thing.
If you are considered "Poor" by the government's standard, You do not have to pay SSI. Yet, you still get full benefits on retiring.
If you make over $100,000 You do not have to pay SSI on anything over the cap of 95,000 (although I think it is climbing again this year)
Bill gates paid EXACTLY the same amount of SSI as I Did last year!
No tax break?
Please!

Does anyone get government subsidies for past transgressions? 40 acres and a mule certainly never happened.

Native Americans get all sorts of subsidies.
They also get a complete tax break for everything on their reservation.
Furthermore, They get a college grant from the government simply for being a mere 1/8th Native American.
Or are you thinking that Blacks are the only people this great country of ours oppressed?

Title 9 requires that if a school does not have distinct seperate teams for males and females, the teams are co-ed. This goes both ways. That means any male student with interest can be a cheerleader or a field hockey player.

Um No!
If a male player is on the Women's Field Hockey team, That team can NOT compete in Women's NCAA competition.
Otherwise, Some intrepid little school will stack the team with males simply to win a championship!

In order for a ANY club to exclude a gender, it must be a private club.

Again, No.
For any MALE club to exclude gender, it must be private.
The PGA has to let women in, the WPGA does not have to let men in.

Women's rights to alimony and child support are not instant.

Yes they are.
There is no contesting that the mother of the child is the mother. The court understands it by nature. Furthermore, Short of a finding of Abuse, Neglect, or an overly compelling interest, The woman is granted custody.

My ex wife beat my son. I had to jump through hoops just to get a hearing to get her rights removed, and I HAD custody.
I went through 5 lawyers before I found one with enough balls to take a chance to open that door again. They were afraid that she would petition for custody as a counter plea.

Minorities still have to fight "inequality" hirings, though not nearly as much as they did.

If a boy wanted to join the girl scouts instead of the boy scouts, he could probably do so after about the same fight as the girls who wanted to join the boy scouts had.  In order for the status quo to be changed, someone first has to challenge it. To my knoweledge, no boys have wanted to be girsl scouts.

No, The courts already ruled on that.
In order for BSA to accomodate the court ruling, they had to make the Explorers (and later Ventures)
GSA is immuned as a compelling interest for women.

Ty Simone wrote:

theda wrote:
But from a purely factual perspective, much of what you listed is wrong. 

White middle class men are eligable for various types of grants (which would be a form of government assistance). They are also elligable for FEMA.

FEMA is equal opportunity. they dropped the ball on this one.
Middle Class males are NOT eligible for a ton of grants.
I could not obtain a SINGLE grant for my school. And believe me, I applied for tons of them.
In my Graduating class (trade school because I would not be able to afford college) The only ones that managed to get grants were "Minorities" and "Poor".
The rest of us got loans, which it takes forever to pay off when things go bad.

They may get points on colllege applications if they are from a different region or background than most of the student body (example: NSU gives whites minority scholarships because most of their students are black).

That is true, and that represents a small small portion of the whole.
I have seen it on Government Service Exams, I have seen it on College entrance exams, I have seen it on GSC applications.
I can tell you a story about a guy who scored perfect on a postal exam for placement in a post office, only to be "outscored" by a black female that got an 81. (10 for black 10 for female = 101 which was more than 100)
Did she deserve that job more than him?

No one one middle class or higher gets tax breaks just for themselves.

Please please tell me you are not saying that there is no Rich Only Tax breaks.
SSI Cap - right off the top of my head is  one I can name.

Here is an interesting thing.
If you are considered "Poor" by the government's standard, You do not have to pay SSI. Yet, you still get full benefits on retiring.
If you make over $100,000 You do not have to pay SSI on anything over the cap of 95,000 (although I think it is climbing again this year)
Bill gates paid EXACTLY the same amount of SSI as I Did last year!
No tax break?
Please!

Does anyone get government subsidies for past transgressions? 40 acres and a mule certainly never happened.

Native Americans get all sorts of subsidies.
They also get a complete tax break for everything on their reservation.
Furthermore, They get a college grant from the government simply for being a mere 1/8th Native American.
Or are you thinking that Blacks are the only people this great country of ours oppressed?

Title 9 requires that if a school does not have distinct seperate teams for males and females, the teams are co-ed. This goes both ways. That means any male student with interest can be a cheerleader or a field hockey player.

Um No!
If a male player is on the Women's Field Hockey team, That team can NOT compete in Women's NCAA competition.
Otherwise, Some intrepid little school will stack the team with males simply to win a championship!

In order for a ANY club to exclude a gender, it must be a private club.

Again, No.
For any MALE club to exclude gender, it must be private.
The PGA has to let women in, the WPGA does not have to let men in.

Women's rights to alimony and child support are not instant.

Yes they are.
There is no contesting that the mother of the child is the mother. The court understands it by nature. Furthermore, Short of a finding of Abuse, Neglect, or an overly compelling interest, The woman is granted custody.

My ex wife beat my son. I had to jump through hoops just to get a hearing to get her rights removed, and I HAD custody.
I went through 5 lawyers before I found one with enough balls to take a chance to open that door again. They were afraid that she would petition for custody as a counter plea.


No, The courts already ruled on that.
In order for BSA to accomodate the court ruling, they had to make the Explorers (and later Ventures)
GSA is immuned as a compelling interest for women.

Thank You Ty... well said.

Mike Cummings wrote:

You forgot to mention Bob Denver died.

who is bob denver?

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Another poster wrote about the sad plight of the
White Amercian male.
White men have the best paid jobs,
own the biggest bussiness in this country
White men control the music industy, film,
sports and banks.

NO. SOME white americans do.
Of course, BET is owned by an African American.
And let's not get into all the money Oprah makes.....
And then there is Michael Jackson and Michael Jorden.
It is not based on COLOR. It is based on what you do with your life.

I'm not complaing its how it is.
Black people have suffered through
Jim Crow laws, racial profiling,
Lynchings, rapes and the murder of
our children all at the hands of White
Americians.  Sure many of you can point
to crimes against Whites commited by Blacks
but no Jim Crow laws against Whites.

Huh?
Whites discriminated against other whites and still do.
There were laws against being a certain religion
There were laws against voting if you were the wrong sex.
There were laws against voting in some places if you simply were stupid (IQ tests)
It may not have been as bad as the Blacks, But despite what you may think, History has shown that White men did not enslave the Blacks, But Black Men did it themselves, Or are we forgetting that?

English ships would dock on the coast of Africa, and Blacks were loaded onto ships by other blacks for a few trinkets!
But all that aside, The Same Country that decided that it was wrong is now the target of all this racial hatred, and that is what it is in a nutshell.
If not for the United States saying, "Hey, Slavery is bad!" There would still be slavery throughout the world. There was slavery as far back as most history books reach, and it all ended when Abe Lincoln decided it was wrong.
Then came discrimination problems, and guess what, We did everything we could to overcome them as well. You can not stop a belief system overnight! It takes generations. But that seems to be too slow for some.

No large numbers of Whites were lynched.

No, But some were burnt at the stakes.
Some were imprisoned without trial simply because McCarthy thought they might be communists.

I think if I had to choose between Lynching or being burned at the stake.... I might take lynching.

Even when Black folks asked that a nasty
reminder of a this country racist past be
removed as in the confederate flags flying
over several southern state capitals
The answer was NO!

Do they teach history anymore?
What was the Civil war fought over?
Slavery?
NO!
It was the right of succession from the Union.
Slavery was really a minor issue for the Civil War.
As a matter of fact, The Emancipation Proclimation was simply a slap at the south because it was well known that they used more slaves than the north.
You think the Union States did not have slavery?
Prior to the Civil War, they all had Slaves!!

The Civil war came about because the North which was industrial was getting rich and the South which was agricultural was not.

The Confederate flag has about as much to do with slavery as the National Anthem does!

And furthermore, It was not a confederate flag trhat flew over the state of South Carolina, but it's STATE flag which contained the confederate flag's symbol in it.

But then again, You could make an issue of anything I suppose.

So maybe just maybe Blacks have reasons
to be distrustfull of Whites.
Maybe its no wonder we are angry when
young black men are killed by the police
even when they are crimminals.
Black men notice when White folks
lock their car doors when we get near.
Black folks notice when we are followed
in stores. 
I'm I angry, nah.
Life goes on and your hatred and
fear of me is something I can't control.
I don't think most White Americians hate
us, or want to do us harm. 
We just don't know each other just
like these posts.  We have a long way
to go but we won't get there calling
each other names blaming each other
or sayings its not my problem.
By the way here's a good book.
Lies my teacher taught me.

Ok, Now for the rest of it.
It is not racism that is the problem here, It is labelling.
It is not hatred of Blacks that is a problem, It is hatred of ANYTHING that is different.

I am one of those people that purposely goes out of my way to never judge another person before I meet them.

I have pulled off the side of the road in the pouring rain to help a black man change a tire at 9pm, without ever thinking he was going to 'jack me or rob me.

I do not change the side of the street I am walking on when I see a black man walking down it.

I do however lock my car doors whenever I step out of my car.

I have also learned that the blacks that look the cleanest can also be the worst, and the blacks that look the worst can also be the nicest. Oh by the way, that goes for whites and others as well, But since we are focusing on blacks.....

By NOT assigning a group to them, They become an equal automatically.
But, and this is my biggest problem, It appears that blacks want to be a seperate group.

Hence things like Black History Month, Kwanza, NAACP, BET, Ebony, Black Pride Week, Etc....

Get rid of all this labelling and the world would be a much better place.....


And as for personally being discriminated against?

I am an Italian (mobster) Wiccan (Devil Worshipper).
I get it on occasion.
About as much as my "brother" (the black sheep of our family) Dwayne.
But that is a completely different story......

All I am trying to say is this.
We should not label either ourselves or others.
We should not judge based on a label.

Tony, You are an American Male Photographer.
(which means you are better than a Non-american Female Model.... Ok, That was a bad Joke!)
That is all that matters to me while I am here.
That is all I care about as far as the labelling of you goes.

We stop that, We stop the hatred.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Here we go...
BET isn't owned by a Black man anymore.
Essence magazine isn't either.
The flag issue was important to many
Black americians so even if its true
meaning wasn't one of hatred REMOVE it
and then talk about its meaning.
I could care less about what other
places have and will do and if
they have or had slaverly this is
Americia.
Its great that YOU are a fair and non-judgemental
person its great that YOU may judge people by
their actions not their color or creed.
however this isn't the way much of Americia
is.  I'm well aware that people were burned at
the stake.  It wasn't because of their race.
The lynching were often big parties often attended
by children. 
and yes you are correct some White men are rich
some White men own magazines, etc
and some Black, Asian ,etc do too.
My point is the major owners of big bussiness
in this country are White males.
All of you knowif you go to school are smart
enough you can be president or
maybe vice-president of a nation.
We don't see that.  Yes we have a Ms. Rice
yes we have seen Black Governors and mayors
one recent Senator.  There have been improvements
but my friend don't even think that things are equal.
When schools in inner cities still are producing
students who can't read or do basic math.
Some of this is due to the tax base some
due to parents that aren't there or don't
have much education themselves and some to
a government that again cares less for the
poor, old and Black or latin.
I'm not asking people to feel sorry for the
Black man just that you TRY and understand
where many are coming from.

If that is the position that many black people are coming from then you need to change... you need to realize that some of us have listened to this agrument for special consideration for black people for 40 years.  We have established policies at the national, state and local level that have given preference to black americans... many still exist.  But still it isn't enough.

Many of us go out of our way to work with all minorities(whites in California are now a minority group) in a fair and impartial manner, including black models, black MUA's... but still it is not enough.

We are sympathetic to the situation in many black communities, we have studied the dynamics, questioned the behavior of all parties involved, and realized that there are real problems that should be(and are) addressed on both sides... but still that is enough.

Whenever we have questioned why hispanics, asian americans seem to lift themselves up the economic ladder in a generation or two but many black americans can't we are called racist or we don't understand your point of view.

I posted this story in another thread and it bears repeating.  We had a forum discussion in our community last spring about race relations, etc and during the meeting several black participants chastized our community for basically not caring about "their" community (I quess they don't feel their part of town is in the community)... one of them was accusing a hispanic speaker of being a racist during the discussions.  An asian lady stood up and asked what the black community had done to help the asian and hispanic communities... the room went silent.

This issue is not going to go away until all parties recognize that looking to see the differences between folks is wrong minded thinking... look instead for the similarities... there are far more of those.  I played basketball with mostly black ball players for over 25 years and rarely had a problem.  I accepted each one of them as a person and they accepted me the same way.

We should all have pride in our heritage... I am proud of my Italian heritage, but I'm not better than my asian, hispanic or black friends... my family, several generations ago simply came from a different place... but now we are here and now we are all americans... What's most important is that we see each other as individuals worthy of respect and concern.  We should not be forced to see another's point of view if that approach promotes favoritism for their specific ethnic group.

Ty Simone wrote:

theda wrote:
But from a purely factual perspective, much of what you listed is wrong. 

White middle class men are eligable for various types of grants (which would be a form of government assistance). They are also elligable for FEMA.

FEMA is equal opportunity. they dropped the ball on this one.
Middle Class males are NOT eligable for a ton of grants.
I could not obtain a SINGLE grant for my school. And believe me, I applied for tons of them.
In my Graduating class (trade school because I would not be able to afford college) The only ones that managed to get grants were "Minorities" and "Poor".
The rest of us got loans, which it takes forever to pay off when things go bad.

They may get points on colllege applications if they are from a different region or background than most of the student body (example: NSU gives whites minority scholarships because most of their students are black).

That is true, and that represents a small small portion of the whole.
I have seen it on Government Service Exams, I have seen it on College entrance exams, I have seen it on GSC applications.
I can tell you a story about a guy who scored perfect on a postal exam for placement in a post office, only to be "outscored" by a black female that got an 81. (10 for black 10 for female = 101 which was more than 100)
Did she deserve that job more than him?

No one one middle class or higher gets tax breaks just for themselves.

Please please tell me you are not saying that there is no Rich Only Tax breaks.
SSI Cap - right off the top of my head is  one I can name.

Here is an interesting thing.
If you are considered "Poor" by the government's standard, You do not have to pay SSI. Yet, you still get full benefits on retiring.
If you make over $100,000 You do not have to pay SSI on anything over the cap of 95,000 (although I think it is climbing again this year)
Bill gates paid EXACTLY the same amount of SSI as I Did last year!
No tax break?
Please!

Does anyone get government subsidies for past transgressions? 40 acres and a mule certainly never happened.

Native Americans get all sorts of subsidies.
They also get a complete tax break for everything on their reservation.
Furthermore, They get a college grant from the government simply for being a mere 1/8th Native American.
Or are you thinking that Blacks are the only people this great country of ours oppressed?

Title 9 requires that if a school does not have distinct seperate teams for males and females, the teams are co-ed. This goes both ways. That means any male student with interest can be a cheerleader or a field hockey player.

Um No!
If a male player is on the Women's Field Hockey team, That team can NOT compete in Women's NCAA competition.
Otherwise, Some intrepid little school will stack the team with males simply to win a championship!

In order for a ANY club to exclude a gender, it must be a private club.

Again, No.
For any MALE club to exclude gender, it must be private.
The PGA has to let women in, the WPGA does not have to let men in.


Yes they are.
There is no contesting that the mother of the child is the mother. The court understands it by nature. Furthermore, Short of a finding of Abuse, Neglect, or an overly compelling interest, The woman is granted custody.

My ex wife beat my son. I had to jump through hoops just to get a hearing to get her rights removed, and I HAD custody.
I went through 5 lawyers before I found one with enough balls to take a chance to open that door again. They were afraid that she would petition for custody as a counter plea.


No, The courts already ruled on that.
In order for BSA to accomodate the court ruling, they had to make the Explorers (and later Ventures)
GSA is immuned as a compelling interest for women.

My middle class white brother got grants for college. Maybe you just didn't apply for the right grants? There are a lot of minority based and need based grants, but you said white middle class men were not eligable for ANY, which is untrue.  You also said they were not eleigable for federal aid, which they are. FEMA is blowing it for everyone right now, but it is a form government aid and white middle class men do qualify just as anyone else would.

Are you sure about that grant for native americans? because of alll the people with native american ancestory i've known, I've never known anyone to get that. Are there no additional requirements? Because my 1/8 cherokee, 1/8 blackfoot best friend from high school will just kick herself when she finds out she didn't have to slave away in work study programs and take out all those loans. She got zip. You're right. they do get tax breaks on reservations.  They get payback for having their land taken from them and being shoved onto tiny plots in the first  place. Unfortunately, middle class white men never had to deal with that sort of oppression, so of course they won;t bbe getting retribution.  They can join the rest of us that don't either. As it turns out, you have to be opprerssed to received special treatment to make up for it later.

I'm sorry. You're right the rich do get tax breaks (especially if they have good accountants), but the middle class, regardless of gender or race, get none.

I'll look into your arssertions about title 9, but I'm guessing you're probably still wrong.

You ARE right that quotas can lead to reverse discrimination. Another of my brother's was told point blank after graduating from Wharton that the bank job he applied for HAD to go to a black woman to meet their quotas.

Yet another brother was tutoring a very wealthy black girl when he was high school.  She turned to him in frustration and said "Damn, the way you're helping me, I'm not going to get into Princeton even if I am black!" She was wrong, though. She did go to Princeton. My brother's considerably better GPA and SATs didn't get him in though. He was told by admissions they already had enough Jewish boys from Jersey and they needed to diversify.

So yeah, I realize that discrimination is out there and it's going BOTH ways.

theda wrote:
I'm sorry. You're right the rich do get tax breaks (especially if they have good accountants), but the middle class, regardless of gender or race, get none.

Especially since they pay 80 percent of the taxes.(the rich)

I am very white and very poor...yea pell grants!

theda wrote:
By the way. slavery was a "minor" issue in some ways in the Civil War, but it was an intricate part of the Southern economy, which was why the war was really fault.

The Civil War stengthened the abolitionist movement like nothing else could have.

The confederate flag is a symbol of a dead and burried past. Some of that past was beuatiful, but for many, that flag symbolizes the most painful thing their ancestors EVER endured.

There was more to Nazism than just killing Jews (and gypsies and commmunists and gay men and pornographers and random others Hitler didn't like...), but that doesn't mean the germans should fly swastika flags from their government buildings.  It's too painful for too many.

Furthermore, the South LOST.  The Confederacy as a nation (such as it was) lasted four years and was never recognized by the rest of the world.  Why should a the capital building in Richmond or Atlanta fly the flag of a nation that was defeated before it really got off the ground? That's what happeneds when you lose the war. Although, that's not a race issue.

If the majority of the folks in Virginia, SC and Georgia want to fly it...fly it.  But, having gone through this debate for real in SC...it is not worth the fight.  I would say take it down.  The confederate flag represents different things to different people..to me it represents a loss of states rights.  Rights that could have kept the federal gov. from becoming the monster that it is...  One big entitlement monster...

Model Sarah wrote:

Maybe for the popular stupid bands out right now but not true "white angry" music. Some of the best lyrics I have ever heard are from anger. Anger is an emotion. Nothing wrong with that. It is real anger with REAL bands not the fake bands you hear out there.. "on the radio".

"bitch gimme my money" isnt anger thats stupidity.

I agree

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Richard Art
I was waiting untill someone pointed that
out.  You are exactly right!
I have a pretty White model as my cover shot.
Maybe I'm not Black...
Ummm I am.
I like to stirr the pot as it were.
However I'm a bit un clear on the rest
of your points. 
What is intresting  race is more a
problem in Americia then in many
european countries.  Although
some like France and England are having
problems with radical Muslims.
It is also a fact that various groups
in different countries are fighting.
Sunni against Shiite.  In the middle east
here in Americia we have lots of battles
over politics,etc.
Whats unique about hatred of Black people
is we can't run away from it.
Years ago Black actors would go
to Europe.  Men like Paul Robeson.
I misspelled his name. 
What is worse then the racial hatred many
Black people face is the self and group hatred
it has nutured.  Studies have shown when
a group of very young Black children were
shown photos of attractive people of
various colors they all picked up White
people as more attractive.  Same when they
were shown dolls of diffrent colors.
This also included questions like who
is smarter.
Its a well known fact the the historical
Jesus of the bible was somewhat dark
and in some peoples view maybe Black.
This according to several passages in
Revelations.  Yet the drawings we always
see show him  as a dark haired White man.
Hey wasn't he a Jew?
Much of what Black children see from
movies to music say either we are bad
as in pimps or hoe's or we are not as
smart as White people.
We are always angry and ready to fight.
Or we can dance and sing and we are
hip. Yes there are postive things around.
This is why Black children must be made aware
of a postive history they must learn about other
Black people besides Dr. King and Malcom X
They must be taught that education must come
first.  They must be taught respect, love and
kindness.  I don't care who teaches it.
You can if you'd like but maybe your too
busy pointing out my faults.
One last thing I'm not asking for
special consideration for anything.
I believe in doing for
myself and other Black men and
women need to too.
I also believe in the truth and it is
as I see it that White men and women
still enjoy a considerable fortune in this
country.  Black people continue to face
open and hidden hatred.  Ranging from
poor schools to job and housing
discrimmation.  Justice , fair play
and compassion is suppose to be the
Americian way.  Lets all try to insure that
it is.
I'm through with this thread.
I want to thank everyone who posted.
Most of you have stated your postions
with respect and intellegence.
All of you I'm sure do your best to give
everyone a equal chance and that is  truly
the Americian way.
God bless you all.

Awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I couldn't agree with you more!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

bencook2 wrote:

If the majority of the folks in Virginia, SC and Georgia want to fly it...fly it.  But, having gone through this debate for real in SC...it is not worth the fight.  I would say take it down.  The confederate flag represents different things to different people..to me it represents a loss of states rights.  Rights that could have kept the federal gov. from becoming the monster that it is...  One big entitlement monster...

I do think that's like saying the swastika represents different things to different people. That is true. Hitler stole it from Tibet, and I have seen it used in Tibetan imagery again and again. But that is not why skinheads have it tattooed on their bodies. It is because of Hitler that we know the swastika. Similarly, it is because of slavery that the Civil War occurred, and the confederate flag represents the side that lost. Thank god.

DreamPretty? wrote:

I do think that's like saying the swastika represents different things to different people. That is true. Hitler stole it from Tibet, and I have seen it used in Tibetan imagery again and again. But that is not why skinheads have it tattooed on their bodies. It is because of Hitler that we know the swastika. Similarly, it is because of slavery that the Civil War occurred, and the confederate flag represents the side that lost. Thank god.

Right...Right...Right...ummm Kinda Right!

The Civil War was fought for purely economic reason... as are most wars.  The slaves factored in economicly.  Very few southerners went to war to keep people as slaves, as well, even fewer Northerners went to war to free them.  Even A. Lincoln new how to spin a war!

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Mike Cummings ;
Please don't try and insult me by comparing
me and how I think to the klan or anyone else.
While I don't agree with some of your views I respect
your opinions and the way you have presented them.
I have not called anyone racist and I have tried to
keep my views balanced and fair.

No insult, just a statement of fact. The Klan teaches a segregated history. White folks did this and white folks did that. "Niggers walked on diamonds until the white man showed them what they were worth." (From a Klan pamphlet that went around my school. It stuck because it was stupid.)

If you do the same by teaching that this country was built on the back of the black man. Or highlighting an accomplishment of a Negro because he is a Negro, you are in the same boat.

Lets go, reality for most people is their truth.
I'm not Native Americian but I might be offended
by a 'dancing Indian.' that some schools
I understand still have. So cut it out!

There is the problem, quit being offended at everything. Remember the stir that the "Fighting Whities" caused? Bet you don't. Someone set up a company to sell shirts and whatnot that had the "Fighting Whities" on it. Too bad it backfired (or did it) most of the shirts sold were to whites. They thought it was a hoot...

Another poster wrote about the sad plight of the
White Amercian male.
White men have the best paid jobs,
own the biggest bussiness in this country
White men control the music industy, film,
sports and banks.

I thought that was Jews.

I'm not complaing its how it is.
Black people have suffered through
Jim Crow laws, racial profiling,
Lynchings, rapes and the murder of
our children all at the hands of White
Americians.  Sure many of you can point
to crimes against Whites commited by Blacks
but no Jim Crow laws against Whites.
No large numbers of Whites were lynched.

Plenty of white folks were lynched and beaten in order to stop Jim Crow laws, Don't you ever forget that.

Even when Black folks asked that a nasty
reminder of a this country racist past be
removed as in the confederate flags flying
over several southern state capitals
The answer was NO!

That's right, the answer is no. You cling to "your" history like a security blanket but want to rewrite "our" history. In Ocala Fl. there is a park with a display of the flags that have flown over Marion County. One of those flags is from the Confederate States. Someone got in a tizzy and wanted it removed because it was "racist" and made her feel bad. It is history, leave it. Trying to remove the flag was just another attempt to feel powerful against "the man". Same mindset as the looters sticking it to  "the man".

So maybe just maybe Blacks have reasons
to be distrustfull of Whites.
Maybe its no wonder we are angry when
young black men are killed by the police
even when they are crimminals.

Wait, stop, rewind. Criminals will die at the hands of the police for all the same reasons, no matter the color. Why are more black men killed by the police? Because more black men are criminals. Sad but true. I guess it is ok, because they are sticking it to the man.

Black men notice when White folks
lock their car doors when we get near.
Black folks notice when we are followed
in stores.

Yep, might have something to do with the "gangsta" attitude and clothes..Nah that can't be it. You're right, it is the color of skin alone. The next time one of the TV shows does that "does racism exist" topics and they send white people into a store then send black people into the same store, look at what the "subjects" are wearing and how they are acting. Every show I have seen has the black person dressed like a thug and the black person will do things like block the view of the clerk. Why? It gets the "results" they are looking for. Next time pay close attention. It will amaze you.

I'm I angry, nah.
Life goes on and your hatred and
fear of me is something I can't control.
I don't think most White Americians hate
us, or want to do us harm.

Most white people don't think you are out to get them either. I had a guy I worked with that called racist people 5 percenters. His theory was that 5% of any given group were racist. White, black, latin, Indian, Asian.. etc.

We just don't know each other just
like these posts.

Right there is the problem. Us and Them. We don't need to get to know you, if you are a part of Us. Having a separate but equal history doesn't help. Are you with us or agin' us. Is the Negro "race" going to join the American dream or is it going to self destruct. How long will it stay on the bottom. How long will you let your "leaders" keep you down so they can remain in power? I think you mentioned Bill Cosby on another post and how much hell he got for speaking the truth. When will the black community listen to the truth? I will tell you, it will be when you stop living in the Us and Them universe. When you stop making special note of race. Content not Color. Remember that, Content not color. Stop killing the dream.

We have a long way
to go but we won't get there calling
each other names blaming each other
or sayings its not my problem.
By the way here's a good book.
Lies my teacher taught me.

phoenixbun wrote:

who is bob denver?

"Sunshine on my shoulder's makes me happy"... oh wait thats John Denver.

Ty Simone wrote:
The war was over STATE RIGHTS, specifically the right to succession from the Union!

ok, i'll bite ;-)
why did the southern states want to secede?

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I'm going to let you in on a well
known secret.  The things that happen
to your ancestors will affect you.
Lets consider why Africians that come
here often end up at Harvard and Yale.
In fact many of the Black students at
some of our top schools including MIT
are from Africia.  Why is that?
Why is it that many of the top
preforming Black students are from
Africia?  These are chidren of a people
who were never enslaved.  They have
none of the baggage that Americian
born Black people have.

There were no black slaves in Africa?  Hmm...news to me.

Hmm...the more I learn about my family ancestors, I've come to learn that I'm from a long line of nutjobs.  Multiple broken marriages.  Alcoholics.  I tease my parents we're just from a bunch of white trash hics.  My family lines date back well over 100 years and on my dad's side, more than 200.  None of them to my knowledge discovered oil or gold.  I suppose that's why I'm not rich....hmm...where was I going with this?  Oh yeah...CRAP.  As long as ANYONE carries around imaginary chains on their bodies and scars from whips that never touched their bodies, you'll likely be either a failure or just plain mean and bitter.  It's personal attitude and values.  throughout American history there are people that have dealt a bad hand.  And it's up to them to change things.  If you sit on your rear and feel sorry for yourself, that's your problem.  My dad's mom had I think 4 or 5 husbands.  My mom's dad was abusive and an alcoholic.  With all the crap in their lives, the managed to find each other, get married, and stay married.  They don't smoke, they don't drink, and they never abused any of their children.  How does this happen if ancestry is so important?

It's not...it's a crutch.  History is meant so that we can learn from past mistakes.  Not use it as an excuse.  Every time you do that, you devalue the accomplishments of successful black American's.  Every year there's a kid of all ethnicities born into a challenging environment.  And ever year one of those kids will end up top honors in school.  And every year one of those kids finds a good job.

Ever year someone is born with the proverbial silver spoon in their mouth.  And every year one of those kids do something stupid like get a girl wasted and stick beer bottles and cigarettes in the butts.  And every year, one of those kids ends up in the gutter wasted on drugs and/or disease.

Bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people.  Life is what it is.  It's up to each and every single one of us to make it the best we can.  Some of us have to work really really really hard.  Some of us have to barely lift a finger.  It's not fair or unfair.  It just is.  But when people bitch about the crappy life they have been born into or how their ancestors have suffered...just remember, there are kids born into wheelchairs all the time.

aye provide wrote:

Yes racism happens in reverse and I have EVEN LESS tolerance for that. I wish wish wish people would be evaluated on the character and the skill not the apperance.

Content not color is the key.

qphotonyc wrote:
ok, i'll bite ;-)
why did the southern states want to secede?

Because the Northern States, Which had the population and the power were putting in laws that would basically rob the Southern States of what wealth they had.

The problem in the south was manifold.
First, They did not have enough power in the Congress to get any laws passed that were in their best interests.
Second, Industrialization was coming to the North much faster than to the South.
Third, The south was almost 100% dependant on the North for their livelihood. The south could produce cotton, But unprocessed, It really did not have much of a value.
The North would buy it, and Using there new found technologies, could turn that cotton into thread and shirts and pants and whatever, that was easily sellable.
South had raw materials, The north had the processing power.

Was Slavery an issue?
Yes, But not the major one.

The first strike against slavery was almost 53 years prior to the Civil war.
1808 - Congress votes to abolish International slave trade.
April 12, 13,1861 - The South fires on Fort Sumter - 4:30 a.m. 

July 20, 1860 - South Carolina secedes from Union
At this point, the First State has now seceded from the Union.
Interestingly enough, Even though the president at the time stated it was legal,
December 26, 1860 - Union forces move into Fort Sumter to protect against secessionists.

At this point the problems start.
You have a state that is no longer part of the Union, with Union soldiers in a Union military fort still on their property.

More states secede.
The confederacy is formed.
Yet the Union forces refuse to leave their "Country"


But, If you want a true rendering of all this, You have to delve deeper into what caused the rift...

Here is how it worked.
The United States was formed when the Constitution was ratified.
The provisions of the Constitution are the laws of the land.

The Constitution clear states in Article 4 - "No person held to service or labor in one State, under the laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor, but shall be delivered up, on claim of the party to whom such service or labor may be due."

What that basically said was that A slave in South Carolina that fled to New York was still a slave.

Furthermore Article 4 also states that a fugitive was to be returned to the State from which it fled (we call that extradition)

Now, at the point where SC seceded from the union, The States of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New York, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Wisconsin and Iowa, had enacted laws which either nullify the Acts of Congress or render useless any attempt to execute them.

The State of New Jersey, at an earlier date, passed a law in conformity with her constitutional obligation; but the current of anti-slavery feeling had led her to enact laws which render inoperative the remedies provided by her own law and by the laws of Congress.
In the State of New York even the right of transit for a slave had been denied by her tribunals; and the States of Ohio and Iowa had refused to surrender to justice fugitives charged with murder, and with inciting servile insurrection in the State of Virginia. Thus the constituted compact had been deliberately broken and disregarded by the non-slaveholding States.

So, You have a rift between the North and the South.
The Rift is both Economical and Philosophical.
That Rift was strained further by the fact that the document all the States agreed to was being rendered inert by members of the North, Non-slaveholding states.

Therefore the South, Which under the constitution had a legal right not only to own slaves, But to expect the return of slaves that fled or were stolen.
They also had a legal right to have thus charged with crimes (other than the slaves) to be returned.

This was not happening.
This caused SC to secede from the Union.

In the Context of Today, It would be like the East Coast saying "Abortion is Illegal" and the West Cost saying it is legal.
Then, When people from the East coast go out west and torch a few thousand clinics, they run back to the East Coast.
When the West Coast says, "Hey they are arsonists! Send them here for trial!" The East Coast responds, "No, you guys are abortionists."

That is what the south was up against.
They were right constitutionally speaking.
The North was wrong.
(this is NOT an endorsement of slavery, it is merely stating the facts of the time.)
Therefore the South felt justified in seceding from the Union, and forming their own Confederacy.

The war took place because The Union decided that you could not just Secede from the Union.

Otherwise, They would have said, Ok, Fine, let us pull our troops back here and you can have your states and we will keep ours and everything will be fine.

To make matters worse though, Lincoln was elected "illegally" based on the constitution because former slaves were allowed to vote as full citizens, despite the fact the constitution prohibited it. (this is a claim that South Carolina made in it's secession speech)

Furthermore, the Bill of Rights was also being rendered inept.
Article X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

This was the biggest issue amoung those complaining.

Slavery, or more aptly, the Ability of the state to make laws that allow their citizens to Own Slaves, Which at the time was A state right slowly being subverted by the non-slaveholding states, Was one of several issues that caused the BREAKUP OF THE UNION.

It had nothing to do with the civil war which was about the right of states to secede from the union.

It is like saying we went to war with Germany because he was slaughtering Jews.
We went to war with Germany because he was invading our friends and allies.
It had nothing to do with the holocaust.

The Civil war was not about slavery.
Slavery mere caused the Circumstances to exist where the Union became divide along economic lines, which eventually led to the Southern States seceding from the Union.
The Secession of those states then led to the eventual conflict in South Carolina over Who owned the military bases.

The issue of slavery merely split the country.
It was not why the war was fought.
Although by winning the war, The northern states had the power to pass an amendment to forbid slavery forever, which they did AFTER the war. (notice they did not do it during the war where it would have won by a landslide, since every Northern State was Slave free by then.)

Ty Simone wrote:
To make matters worse though, Lincoln was elected "illegally" based on the constitution because former slaves were allowed to vote as full citizens, despite the fact the constitution prohibited it. (this is a claim that South Carolina made in it's secession speech)

Damn Republicans, always stealing elections!

Mike Cummings wrote:

Content not color is the key.

OMG...me and Mike agree!

bencook2 wrote:

OMG...me and Mike agree!

Me you and a whole bunch of other people..