Posted by Studio200: 

Posted by Patrick Walberg: 

Sir, you are DEAD wrong! There are more cases of models missing after a photo shoot, being murdered, raped or at the least ... harrassed during a photo shoot. Why take the chance?

Patrick...as I said, wheres your proof? Murder and rape huh? You are fear mongering my friend! You are possibly doing a DISSERVICE by creating the perception in young women that they can't do anything on their own in life, that they will always need a "big strong man" to take care of them (maybe thats your goal). Are we headed back to the 50's? Keep the woman in the kitchen barefoot? You are entitled to beliefs as we all are, but lets get back to facts here. I want to see references to all these missing models you seem to know about. Now, its possible that where you live models go missing all the time and I'm completely out of the loop, but so far all I have seen is urban legend. I'd bet a LOT more girls go missing after a night hanging out partying than they do from photo shoots. Anyway, until you can site multiple cases of missing models I think you are really doing a disservice to young women. I don't disagree that something bad "can" happen to a model alone, but you can also walk out of your house and get struck by lightning. Most of us walk out of our houses every day, its a mitigated risk..its the same with models and photoshoots. If it turns out there are hundreds of cases of rape or murder by photographers and models then YES I agree with you, they need escorts..but at this point and this has been talked about before on other threads only ONE case turns up.

Dennis, Certainly, there is not a lot of models turning up missing, murdered or otherwise raped. I even said that myself when I say that you are far more likely to be murdered by a family member or friend than a stranger.

So I agreed with Carlos that one persons life being saved is worth it! I am NOT attempting to cause "fear" as you say. We already know that there are some models right here on "this forum" who were either attacked, raped or molested by photographers. They are victims, and it takes a lot for any of them to come forward, but you insist on knowing victims names?

BUT that is not what this thread is about. What this is about is COMFORT levels. Are you not comfortable with a model bringing someone? I have no problem with it myself. So let's not be silly asking for a death list of all the models missing or murdered. It will not change my mind about anything I said.

If a model wishes to bring an escort, then so be it! If you as a photographer have a problem with that, then I suppose you are the one thinking you can take care and provide comfort to any "barefoot" model in front of your camera. I have no intentions other than shooting the best pictures I can.
END OF STORY!

Posted by Studio200: 

Posted by Carlos Arturo Velarde: 
Regardless of the fallacy og this statement, I will answer it as written:

One death in thousands is one too many when the death is someone dear to you.

Of course it is Carlos but we are talking about photoshoots here, a VERY safe activity as compared to say, driving a car, riding a bus, buying drugs etc. Do you know how much safer you are if you drive a large sedan as opposed to say an SUV? So why do so many people drive SUV's? My point is that many things we do daily are statistically much more life threatening than a photoshoot. I think one of the reasons there is more paranoia about a photoshoot is simply that its something novel to a lot of the models and photographers, its something new to a lot of them that they don't do very often, therefore there is fear. I'm willing to change my views on this if anyone ever shows any real data on murdered models, but so far the Sobeck murder is the only thing I've been able to turn up. I've really asked around a lot on this because if it turns out that this happens fairly often then yes, I would agree young women need to go everywhere with a bodyguard. I'm hoping that is really not the case.

Posted by Mary: 
I agree John,  This is an internet thing.  In the real world of agency models and real jobs the question wouldn't even come up.  Real models on real jobs don't bring anyone to a shoot if they ever want to work again.  You certainly don't need protection when you have an art director, client, makeup artist, stylist, photo assistants etc, it would be very unprofessional to bring another body to an already crowded hectic situation.


The internet modeling world is very different, there are guys out there that pretend to be photographers just to meet pretty girls, look at the portfolios on these sites and it's painfully obvious, some people treat this business on the internet like a dating service.  Most of these guys are harmless but now and then you will run into a real creep.  So I would bring a friend or boyfriend on a shoot set up on the net if there isnt a crew present.   

Posted by Carlos Arturo Velarde: 
I don't know many photographers who have a crew when shooting portfolio images for a model.

Thats why I made the "real job" distinction.

Posted by Carlos Arturo Velarde: 
I don't know many photographers who have a crew when shooting portfolio images for a model.

I've only had a handful of shoots where I had an assistant and an MUA. Man, I'd love to have more of those experiences and a stylist along as well. I think it would be cool if I could have another assistant who could record the technical details of the shots. Documentation can be a drag sometimes.

Posted by John Allan: 
This whole idiotic self-propagating preoccupation with the remote possibility of photographers raping and pillaging unsuspecting models, is just one more reason why, when photographers reach a certain level of competency they don't venture outside of the agency model paradigm much...

John

I'm forced to agree.  In the last decade, more women have been raped/assaulted/killed by pro athletes than photographers...and all the women i know still flock to the local nightclubs where members of the local teams are said to frequent.  It's only photographers who are treated as radioactive lepers based on the behavior of a very, very few of us.

Posted by Melvin Moten Jr: 

Posted by John Allan: 
This whole idiotic self-propagating preoccupation with the remote possibility of photographers raping and pillaging unsuspecting models, is just one more reason why, when photographers reach a certain level of competency they don't venture outside of the agency model paradigm much...

John

I'm forced to agree.  In the last decade, more women have been raped/assaulted/killed by pro athletes than photographers...and all the women i know still flock to the local nightclubs where members of the local teams are said to frequent.  It's only photographers who are treated as radioactive lepers based on the behavior of a very, very few of us.

I would say more than Flock!!

I'm forced to agree.  In the last decade, more women have been raped/assaulted/killed by pro athletes than photographers...and all the women i know still flock to the local nightclubs where members of the local teams are said to frequent.  It's only photographers who are treated as radioactive lepers based on the behavior of a very, very few of us.

the reason is simple.  It's easier to become a "photographer" than it is to become a "pro athlete"  somethings are easier to fake then others. 

Anyone can pick up a camera and start calling themselves photographers, look at the portfolio on MM, I can shoot better then a lot of the stuff I see here and I'm not a photographer.

Guys up to no good have a much better chance of being believed when they say "I shoot for Playboy" then "I'm the Green Bay Packer Quarterback"

Do you know how many people I know that "shoot for Playboy"? or how many guys I know that "shoot for Maxim"?  they got a snap shot posted on the hometown hottie website is the reality but whats a little truth stretching if you can pick up models with the line.

Posted by Mary: 

I'm forced to agree.  In the last decade, more women have been raped/assaulted/killed by pro athletes than photographers...and all the women i know still flock to the local nightclubs where members of the local teams are said to frequent.  It's only photographers who are treated as radioactive lepers based on the behavior of a very, very few of us.

the reason is simple.  It's easier to become a "photographer" than it is to become a "pro athlete"  somethings are easier to fake then others. 

Anyone can pick up a camera and start calling themselves photographers, look at the portfolio on MM, I can shoot better then a lot of the stuff I see here and I'm not a photographer.

Guys up to no good have a much better chance of being believed when they say "I shoot for Playboy" then "I'm the Green Bay Packer Quarterback"

Do you know how many people I know that "shoot for Playboy"? or how many guys I know that "shoot for Maxim"?  they got a snap shot posted on the hometown hottie website is the reality but whats a little truth stretching if you can pick up models with the line.

I'd like to think that in the 21st century, women are intelligent enough to see through a clumsy pickup line like "I shoot for Playboy."  As for the athletes thing...I saw a guy telling girls at a club he was one of the Pittsburgh Steelers just last week...Not one of the three girls hanging all over him so much as questioned him.  If they'd asked for a scrap of ID, they'd have known he was the neighborhood UPS man.

Just because a lie is easy to believe dosen't make it less of a lie.

Posted by Mary: 
I agree John,  This is an internet thing.  In the real world of agency models and real jobs the question wouldn't even come up.  Real models on real jobs don't bring anyone to a shoot if they ever want to work again.  You certainly don't need protection when you have an art director, client, makeup artist, stylist, photo assistants etc, it would be very unprofessional to bring another body to an already crowded hectic situation.

...and the sad thing is... and I don't believe these "Internet models" realize the fact, is that by approaching legitimate photographers with these kind of fear-based demands, which are inconsistent with how real projects work, they relegate themselves to only working with the very poser  "photographers" which they fear.

It's a sad paradox.
John

Posted by John Allan: 

Posted by Mary: 
I agree John,  This is an internet thing.  In the real world of agency models and real jobs the question wouldn't even come up.  Real models on real jobs don't bring anyone to a shoot if they ever want to work again.  You certainly don't need protection when you have an art director, client, makeup artist, stylist, photo assistants etc, it would be very unprofessional to bring another body to an already crowded hectic situation.

...and the sad thing is... and I don't believe these "Internet models" realize the fact, is that by approaching legitimate photographers with these kind of fear-based demands, which are inconsistent with how real projects work, they relegate themselves to only working with the very poser  "photographers" which they fear.

It's a sad paradox.
John

John, I disagree!

Do you have a problem with a model bring someone?

When I was working for an Agency that sent Elvis, Marylin Monroe, and other charactor messengers, as well as belly and exotic dancers ... they sent an escort with EVERY delivery. I've never had anyone question it, nor do I challenge anyone who wishes to bing an escort to a photo shoot. So what is your problem with it?

Posted by Patrick Walberg: 

Posted by John Allan: 

Posted by Mary: 
I agree John,  This is an internet thing.  In the real world of agency models and real jobs the question wouldn't even come up.  Real models on real jobs don't bring anyone to a shoot if they ever want to work again.  You certainly don't need protection when you have an art director, client, makeup artist, stylist, photo assistants etc, it would be very unprofessional to bring another body to an already crowded hectic situation.

...and the sad thing is... and I don't believe these "Internet models" realize the fact, is that by approaching legitimate photographers with these kind of fear-based demands, which are inconsistent with how real projects work, they relegate themselves to only working with the very poser  "photographers" which they fear.

It's a sad paradox.
John

John, I disagree!

Do you have a problem with a model bring someone?

When I was working for an Agency that sent Elvis, Marylin Monroe, and other charactor messengers, as well as belly and exotic dancers ... they sent an escort with EVERY delivery. I've never had anyone question it, nor do I challenge anyone who wishes to bing an escort to a photo shoot. So what is your problem with it?

Well, I wasn't talking about Elvis entertainment and strippers.

No offense meant, but if you place these within the same catagory as the models you work with, I don't want to have this discussion with you, as you live and work within a different paradigm than I do.

John

Posted by John Allan: 

Posted by Patrick Walberg: 

Posted by John Allan: 

Posted by Mary: 
I agree John,  This is an internet thing.  In the real world of agency models and real jobs the question wouldn't even come up.  Real models on real jobs don't bring anyone to a shoot if they ever want to work again.  You certainly don't need protection when you have an art director, client, makeup artist, stylist, photo assistants etc, it would be very unprofessional to bring another body to an already crowded hectic situation.

...and the sad thing is... and I don't believe these "Internet models" realize the fact, is that by approaching legitimate photographers with these kind of fear-based demands, which are inconsistent with how real projects work, they relegate themselves to only working with the very poser  "photographers" which they fear.

It's a sad paradox.
John

John, I disagree!

Do you have a problem with a model bring someone?

When I was working for an Agency that sent Elvis, Marylin Monroe, and other charactor messengers, as well as belly and exotic dancers ... they sent an escort with EVERY delivery. I've never had anyone question it, nor do I challenge anyone who wishes to bing an escort to a photo shoot. So what is your problem with it?

Well, I wasn't talking about Elvis entertainment and strippers.

No offense meant, but if you place these within the same catagory as the models you work with, I don't want to have this discussion with you, as you live and work within a different paradigm than I do.

John

John, You have some nice headshots in your profile here. You do not need to put me down, because we differ in opinion on regards to if a model should bring an escort. You are no better than I am, and nothing you can say or do will convince me otherwise.

So why don't you answer my question? Do you have a problem with models bringing an escort? That is a simple question and you can answer it "yes or no."

If the talent agencies that handle bookings for people and "talent" going to unknown places to meet with unknown clients are comfortable with sending their talent with an escort, then why is this a problem for a model to go to an unknown "photographers" location and pose while having an escort?


You don't want to have a discussion because you think you are better than me. Is that it? I'd be insulted except that I know that is not true. What concerns me is your refusal to answer a simple question. If you are a photographer who has a problem with models bringing an escort, then let's get it out in the open. I'd like to know the truth behind your reasoning. Do you have a problem with that?

Posted by Patrick Walberg: 

Posted by John Allan: 

Posted by Patrick Walberg: 

Posted by John Allan: 

Posted by Mary: 
I agree John,  This is an internet thing.  In the real world of agency models and real jobs the question wouldn't even come up.  Real models on real jobs don't bring anyone to a shoot if they ever want to work again.  You certainly don't need protection when you have an art director, client, makeup artist, stylist, photo assistants etc, it would be very unprofessional to bring another body to an already crowded hectic situation.

...and the sad thing is... and I don't believe these "Internet models" realize the fact, is that by approaching legitimate photographers with these kind of fear-based demands, which are inconsistent with how real projects work, they relegate themselves to only working with the very poser  "photographers" which they fear.

It's a sad paradox.
John

John, I disagree!

Do you have a problem with a model bring someone?

When I was working for an Agency that sent Elvis, Marylin Monroe, and other charactor messengers, as well as belly and exotic dancers ... they sent an escort with EVERY delivery. I've never had anyone question it, nor do I challenge anyone who wishes to bing an escort to a photo shoot. So what is your problem with it?

Well, I wasn't talking about Elvis entertainment and strippers.

No offense meant, but if you place these within the same catagory as the models you work with, I don't want to have this discussion with you, as you live and work within a different paradigm than I do.

John

John, You have some nice headshots in your profile here. You do not need to put me down, because we differ in opinion on regards to if a model should bring an escort. You are no better than I am, and nothing you can say or do will convince me otherwise.

So why don't you answer my question? Do you have a problem with models bringing an escort? That is a simple question and you can answer it "yes or no."

If the talent agencies that handle bookings for people and "talent" going to unknown places to meet with unknown clients are comfortable with sending their talent with an escort, then why is this a problem for a model to go to an unknown "photographers" location and pose while having an escort?


You don't want to have a discussion because you think you are better than me. Is that it? I'd be insulted except that I know that is not true. What concerns me is your refusal to answer a simple question. If you are a photographer who has a problem with models bringing an escort, then let's get it out in the open. I'd like to know the truth behind your reasoning. Do you have a problem with that?

I think you misunderstood my reply. I wasn't bashing your work or indicating that I thought I was better than you. I like your veronica at the playground BTW.
Your statement referencing strippers and Elvis impersonators as examples of "models" bringing escorts, sure appears as if you are operating in a different modeling paradigm than what I do, that's all. It's practically impossible to explain the reasons why people who exist within paradigm A do certain things, to people existing within paradigm B. It doesn't mean paradigm A is better than paradigm B (although in the case of "internet models" vs. "agency models" I believe the later is normally preferable and usually "better".
Yes. Generally I have a problem with models bringing escorts. However, because I primarily work with agency models, it's a non-issue, because it would never happen. When I work with independents, they can bring a friend/bf/so/bodyguard/whatever to the meet&greet, but that's it. The shoot is for professionals on a need to be there basis. Period. There's a lot of reasons why this is most professional photographer's policy. But fundamentally it's just plain more professional.

John

Posted by John Allan: 

Posted by Patrick Walberg: 

Posted by John Allan: 

Posted by Patrick Walberg: 

Posted by John Allan: 

Posted by Mary: 
I agree John,  This is an internet thing.  In the real world of agency models and real jobs the question wouldn't even come up.  Real models on real jobs don't bring anyone to a shoot if they ever want to work again.  You certainly don't need protection when you have an art director, client, makeup artist, stylist, photo assistants etc, it would be very unprofessional to bring another body to an already crowded hectic situation.

...and the sad thing is... and I don't believe these "Internet models" realize the fact, is that by approaching legitimate photographers with these kind of fear-based demands, which are inconsistent with how real projects work, they relegate themselves to only working with the very poser  "photographers" which they fear.

It's a sad paradox.
John

John, I disagree!

Do you have a problem with a model bring someone?

When I was working for an Agency that sent Elvis, Marylin Monroe, and other charactor messengers, as well as belly and exotic dancers ... they sent an escort with EVERY delivery. I've never had anyone question it, nor do I challenge anyone who wishes to bing an escort to a photo shoot. So what is your problem with it?

Well, I wasn't talking about Elvis entertainment and strippers.

No offense meant, but if you place these within the same catagory as the models you work with, I don't want to have this discussion with you, as you live and work within a different paradigm than I do.

John

John, You have some nice headshots in your profile here. You do not need to put me down, because we differ in opinion on regards to if a model should bring an escort. You are no better than I am, and nothing you can say or do will convince me otherwise.

So why don't you answer my question? Do you have a problem with models bringing an escort? That is a simple question and you can answer it "yes or no."

If the talent agencies that handle bookings for people and "talent" going to unknown places to meet with unknown clients are comfortable with sending their talent with an escort, then why is this a problem for a model to go to an unknown "photographers" location and pose while having an escort?


You don't want to have a discussion because you think you are better than me. Is that it? I'd be insulted except that I know that is not true. What concerns me is your refusal to answer a simple question. If you are a photographer who has a problem with models bringing an escort, then let's get it out in the open. I'd like to know the truth behind your reasoning. Do you have a problem with that?

I think you misunderstood my reply. I wasn't bashing your work or indicating that I thought I was better than you. I like your veronica at the playground BTW.
Your statement referencing strippers and Elvis impersonators as examples of "models" bringing escorts, sure appears as if you are operating in a different modeling paradigm than what I do, that's all.
Yes. Generally I have a problem with models bringing escorts. However, because I primarily work with agency models, it's a non-issue, because it would never happen. When I work with independents, they can bring a friend/bf/so/bodyguard/whatever to the meet&greet, but that's it. The shoot is for professionals on a need to be there basis. Period. There's a lot of reasons why this is most professional photographer's policy. But fundamentally it's just plain more professional.

John

OK John, I'm fine with that. Everyone is different. I have no problem with models bringing escorts and you think it's not professional. I approached Veronica where she worked, and after seeing me a few times, she trusted me enough to shoot. Always I allow people to bring people!

Many professional photographers I know (including Gary Bernstein in LA) will allow a model to bring a friend or escort if it helps the model feel more comfortable. An agency all ready has all the information they need about you so naturally models would feel more comfortable if an agency has checked you out before sending their models to you.

I have an awesome success rate! No "no shows" at any shoots.  There have been some "no shows" to the meet&greet, but that is exactly what weeds out the flakes. Some models have been late. Not a big deal to me if they call to let me know. AND I have had to ask only ONE boyfriend to leave. ONE out of ??? I'd not even venture to guess how many thousands of photo sessions!

So what you are telling me is that if a model from ModelMayhem were to inquire with both you and me about a shoot. Then she asks about bringing an escort ... you would say "no way" and I would say"Ok" ... so which one so you think she will work with? I leave options open and I'm open to people. I will give a person a chance to prove if they belong or don't. Most people don't let me down!

Posted by paleosam: 
I've been shooting for a while now and i still bring someone with me and its always been my boyfriend.  He's been more of a help then a bother in every shoot.  He ususally carries the photogs things as well as holds reflectors and does my make up. So personally i don't understand why anyone would have a problem with escorts being there they must have never had what happens at a shoot explained to them and been told they need to stay out of the way.

who was the client that allowed your boyfriend to do your makeup?

Posted by Mary: 

Posted by paleosam: 
I've been shooting for a while now and i still bring someone with me and its always been my boyfriend.  He's been more of a help then a bother in every shoot.  He ususally carries the photogs things as well as holds reflectors and does my make up. So personally i don't understand why anyone would have a problem with escorts being there they must have never had what happens at a shoot explained to them and been told they need to stay out of the way.

who was the client that allowed your boyfriend to do your makeup? 

He he he he!

Posted by Mary: 
I give up.

Wanna Bet?

Posted by John Allan: 
Patrick,
So what you are telling me is that if a model from ModelMayhem were to inquire with both you and me about a shoot. Then she asks about bringing an escort ... you would say "no way" and I would say"Ok" ... so which one so you think she will work with? I leave options open and I'm open to people. I will give a person a chance to prove if they belong or don't. Most people don't let me down!

Not sure of the significance of "ModelMayhem", but as an example of Internet modeling... I probably wouldn't say it to the model quite that way. Also chances are that if I'm interested in working with her, she's already got a more than passing familiarity with real world modeling and we wouldn't be having the "escort discussion". We'd be talking about the project and scheduling the meet&greet, where she'd have the option of bringing her s/o (although they rarely do) to get a comfort level.
If she doesn't have a comfort level at that point, frankly I don't want to shoot with her anyway. I'm not saying there wouldn't be an exception. Say, after 2-3 shoots and I know the boyfriend a bit and he wants to hold a reflector or do crowd control at a location shoot. But that's a rare exception.

John. I understand you! OK! You don't have to explain anymore! Please understand where I am coming from too. I am like Hugh, I actually ASK the model to bring friends or escorts ... whatever you wish to call them!) AND it's for my protection, NOT the models! These strange models sexually harrass me and I need to be protected from that. See .. they start kissing on me ... feeling me up while I'm trying to concentrate on my picture taking. It's hard to do when they can't keep their hands off me! So when models bring their boyfriends, the models are more likely to do their job and get all sexy in front of the camera.

It's pretty scary what can happen without escorts around. I'll put that picture back up of me getting molested by two models again for you to see! Do I look terrified?

Mary, you are too cool for school!  Love ya!

Posted by Hugh  Jorgen ?: 
Thats why i keep a roll of Duct tape always handy!!
Duct tape the boyfriend first that way he doesnt beat the crap outa ya when she molests you!!

OMG!! I'M REALLY ROTFLMAO NOW!!!!  It's so funny it hurts, but it's true though! 

Posted by Mary: 

Posted by Carlos Arturo Velarde: 
I don't know many photographers who have a crew when shooting portfolio images for a model.

Thats why I made the "real job" distinction. 

Posted by John Allan: 
...and the sad thing is... and I don't believe these "Internet models" realize the fact, is that by approaching legitimate photographers with these kind of fear-based demands, which are inconsistent with how real projects work, they relegate themselves to only working with the very poser  "photographers" which they fear.

It's a sad paradox.
John

Posted by Carlos Arturo Velarde: 
I disagree. They are "relegated" to working with me and I am NOT one of those "photographers" they fear. I am a respectful professional who understands the needs of a woman to feel safe when working isolated with someone who is ultimately a stranger.

Posted by John Allan: 

Posted by Mary: 
I agree John,  This is an internet thing.  In the real world of agency models and real jobs the question wouldn't even come up.  Real models on real jobs don't bring anyone to a shoot if they ever want to work again.  You certainly don't need protection when you have an art director, client, makeup artist, stylist, photo assistants etc, it would be very unprofessional to bring another body to an already crowded hectic situation.

...and the sad thing is... and I don't believe these "Internet models" realize the fact, is that by approaching legitimate photographers with these kind of fear-based demands, which are inconsistent with how real projects work, they relegate themselves to only working with the very poser  "photographers" which they fear.

It's a sad paradox.
John

An excellent point.

Posted by theda: 
Why is the concept that different kinds of shoots call for a different protocol so hard to comprehend for so many people?

If it's a commercial job with 14 people on set with jobs to do, no escort/chaperone/assistant. If it's a personal project or portfolio shoot with just the photographer and model, the model bringing her own escort/chaperone/assistant is both commonplace and sensible.

Thank you.  It's that simple.

Target ad  =  no chaperone, no friends
Sony ad    =  no chaperone, no friends
Victorias Secret =  no chaperone, no friends
print ad or tv commercial = no chaperone, no friends
 
jumping our of cake at party = big chaperone
shoot involving handcuffs or duct tape = big chaperone
Test with you and photographer in his apartment = chaperone
test in the desert alone with photographer = chaperone
shooting with "Playboy Photographer" = chaperone