ElizaMaria wrote:
Has anyone heard of Wilhelmina of PA? The office is in Harrisburg. Do you know if it's legitimate or is it a scam?

There've been numerous posts about these guys in the last few weeks.  They must be recruiting heavily.  Put the name "Wilhelmina" OUT of your mind, the actual Wilhelmina in NY licenses out the name to these little regional groups like handing out Pez candies, they have NO actual relationship to the real Wilhelmina.

Look around online (here on MM as well as elsewhere) and you'll find a fair amount of unsavory info about those people, including several legal actions against them before they bought the Wilhelmina name.

ElizaMaria wrote:
I've seen the one about Kelli Harman and her scam but I also noticed alot of people who have invested in themselves with this agency and are getting paid work (and not just people on forums, I actually know someone who signed with them). While some of the posts say it is a scam, others say it is legitimate. I don't think Wilhelmina would risk recieving a bad name just for a couple dollars that someone pays them to use the name.

I'm just looking to see what others know and get some opinions so that I can weigh my options. Thanks to everyone who gives me some feedback!!

Stay away from any modeling or acting agent who has a history of not paying their models on time, getting complaints with the BBB etc. I don't have any experience with this particular agency, but judging from their boards, they accept pretty much anyone who wants in. To me, they come off as part portfolio mill/scam, part "legit" agency that gets work for their talent once in a while but possibly wouldn't pay, alternatively wouldn't pay you on time... I wouldn't bother with them if I were you.

ElizaMaria wrote:
I've seen the one about Kelli Harman and her scam but I also noticed alot of people who have invested in themselves with this agency and are getting paid work (and not just people on forums, I actually know someone who signed with them). While some of the posts say it is a scam, others say it is legitimate. I don't think Wilhelmina would risk recieving a bad name just for a couple dollars that someone pays them to use the name.

I'm just looking to see what others know and get some opinions so that I can weigh my options. Thanks to everyone who gives me some feedback!!

Wilhelmina doesn't CARE as long as they get that $.
Like PYPI said here:

Wipe the name Wilhelmina from your mind. They have nothing to do with the agency in NY. It's just a name they licensed. Now evaluate them based on how they make money. Is it from clients or models?

Looking at these guys in PA they say a LOT more about their models than their clients.

And here's the deal with groups like the PA people you're asking about.  Yes, they get SOME people SOME work.  But the percentages are vanishingly small.  The way they make most of their $ is by signing up as many people as they can & selling them overpriced portfolios or modeling "classes." 

In fact while searching for the posts I linked I found several more questionable modeling profiles where people were advertising themselves as "scouts" for Wilhelmina PA... and all of them were non-agency standard models.  They work like Amway, those people pay to get in then have to try & make their $ back by recruiting others.  (Those people have been reported and are in the process of being removed from MM.)

YOU actually ARE agency standard, at least for commercial work, so you might have a shot at actual work, but you should still know that the group you're discussing has a questionable (at best) business model so you can watch out for the pitfalls.  That also means it'd probably be worth youre time to investigate some legit agencies maybe in NY before you sign anything with these people & certainly before you spend $ on them.   

ElizaMaria wrote:
I've seen the one about Kelli Harman and her scam but I also noticed alot of people who have invested in themselves with this agency and are getting paid work (and not just people on forums, I actually know someone who signed with them). While some of the posts say it is a scam, others say it is legitimate.

Signing a non -exclusive contract with an 'agent' is no big deal. Getting them to call you for legitimate/ good paying gosees/auditions is where it counts. Just because your friend signed with them  does not neccesarily make them a worthy agent. I guess what matters in this case is for those who are represented by them to come forward and boast about the specific jobs they booked with them . Then you will have a better idea whether or not to waste your time

Kelly Decker wrote:
It is totally legit.  I was scouted and spoke to the LA office in charge of affilatiation.  It's the mid atlantic office Harrrisburg, Pa and soon to be Philly. I also went to high school with the president of Wilhelmina, Scott Patterson. My comp card is Wilhelmina  and my agreement is Wilhelmina. Its a wilhelmina office just as NYC, Miami and LA are.

Wrong, there are only three "real" Wilhelmina's NY Miami and LA. Check the site http://www.wilhelmina.com/contactus.cfm
If they were a real branch then they would be listed.

AngelicaAswald wrote:
Wrong, there are only three "real" Wilhelmina's NY Miami and LA. Check the site http://www.wilhelmina.com/contactus.cfm
If they were a real branch then they would be listed.

+1 the affiliates don't count because of the fact that they have to pay Wilhelmina to use the company name.

Christina Szabo wrote:
Hey Renee...have you tried applying to Click PA

http://www.clickmodel.com/click-philadelphia.php

Renee is a sweetheart ..I actually started with her ...she sent me on some strong casting in Philly and NY....

The OP is 5'7 and don't models who wanna be repped by Click PA have to be at least 5'9 since Click PA is an editorial agency?

MsDarlyn wrote:

The OP is 5'7 and don't models who wanna be repped by Click PA have to be at least 5'9 since Click PA is an editorial agency?

What does she have to loose to apply online..if Renee is interested she will email her back within 48 hours...Yes, at 5'7" I doubt there would send her on fit,showroom, or runway..but alot of the work that comes out of Philadelphia is from designers just starting out that will make exceptions..

Also, there are numerous models in NY that are signed non-exclusively that are 5'7" and up.. I see  the same girls everyday we are all waiting in line at the same castings...I see under 5'10" for the smaller jobs, commercials, music video's....

For the larger designer's and higher paying jobs I'm one of the shortest....

Christina Szabo wrote:
What does she have to loose to apply online..if Renee is interested she will email her back within 48 hours...Yes, at 5'7" I doubt there would send her on fit,showroom, or runway..but alot of the work that comes out of Philadelphia is from designers just starting out that will make exceptions..

Also, there are numerous models in NY that are signed non-exclusively that are 5'7" and up.. I see  the same girls everyday we are all waiting in line at the same castings...I see under 5'10" for the smaller jobs, commercials, music video's....

For the larger designer's and higher paying jobs I'm one of the shortest....

I don't know if the OP will return but you just educated me a little about the Philly market since I would like to work in that market, thanks!

World Class Photos wrote:
Just heard Wilhelmina of PA instructed all models to cancel their MM accounts. Maybe the photogs on here were giving "their" photogs too much competition.

Lots of agencies tell models that, for a variety of reasons.  In the case of these fraudsters it's probably so the models won't see them exposed.

SLE Photography wrote:

Lots of agencies tell models that, for a variety of reasons.  In the case of these fraudsters it's probably so the models won't see them exposed.

LOL, I can see if they were Wilhelmina in NYC but they not lol

AngelicaAswald wrote:

Wrong, there are only three "real" Wilhelmina's NY Miami and LA. Check the site http://www.wilhelmina.com/contactus.cfm
If they were a real branch then they would be listed.

wrong, wrong, wrong. I actually spoke to Wilhelmina days ago regarding their affiliate program. It is very legitimate, & actually very much tied to Wilhelmina New York.

The Fitting Room wrote:
wrong, wrong, wrong. I actually spoke to Wilhelmina days ago regarding their affiliate program. It is very legitimate, & actually very much tied to Wilhelmina New York.

Of course they would tell you that, they rented their name out to the sub agency. As it seems now the affiliates are photo mills, charging for classes, and jacking the prices up for comp cards and photos. Also look at some of the models.......come on, they seems they are a catch all.

https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=526151

https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=525873

https://secure.modelmayhem.com/po.php?t … 130&page=1

The Fitting Room wrote:
Btw- agencies who license the Wilhelmina name are allowed to charge people for "workshops", bit talent does NOT have to take them. Talent is charged for books, testing, messanger fees, website, ect., but this is standard everywhere from NY to LA & between.

The issue is that those "sub agencies" make a TINY portion of their income from bookings, and that tiny portion generally goes to an even SMALLER portion of their roster (MAYBE 5-10% of those "signed" to them) and the rest of their income comes from "seminars," "classes," and overpriced portfolio shoots (plus related items like comp cards) conducted by in-house photographers.

You don't HAVE to take them, but there's heavy pressure to do so, especially if you're not in that top 5%.  They knowingly & deliberately "sign" people who have NO chance of recouping their expenses with legit work simply to pad the agency's bottom line.

SLE Photography wrote:

The issue is that those "sub agencies" make a TINY portion of their income from bookings, and that tiny portion generally goes to an even SMALLER portion of their roster (MAYBE 5-10% of those "signed" to them) and the rest of their income comes from "seminars," "classes," and overpriced portfolio shoots (plus related items like comp cards) conducted by in-house photographers.

You don't HAVE to take them, but there's heavy pressure to do so, especially if you're not in that top 5%.  They knowingly & deliberately "sign" people who have NO chance of recouping their expenses with legit work simply to pad the agency's bottom line.

How do you know any of this? Are you Wilhelmina's personal accountant?? I don't think it's fair to scream "SCAM" just because you don't know all the information. Are you aware that Wilhelmina PA had exclusive rights to PA Fashion Week this year, & that aside from their own local girls, they flew in girls from Wilhelmina NY?  Are you aware of the strong bond they have with larger Wilhelmina's allowing for easier placement of their talent in larger markets?

Let me ask you this- another photographer asks you to teach him a thing or two. He wants all your wisdom & is willing to pay for it. You don't think he's got the talent, but are you going to not teach him anyway???

SLE Photography wrote:
The issue is that those "sub agencies" make a TINY portion of their income from bookings, and that tiny portion generally goes to an even SMALLER portion of their roster (MAYBE 5-10% of those "signed" to them) and the rest of their income comes from "seminars," "classes," and overpriced portfolio shoots (plus related items like comp cards) conducted by in-house photographers.

You don't HAVE to take them, but there's heavy pressure to do so, especially if you're not in that top 5%.  They knowingly & deliberately "sign" people who have NO chance of recouping their expenses with legit work simply to pad the agency's bottom line.

The Fitting Room wrote:
How do you know any of this? Are you Wilhelmina's personal accountant?? I don't think it's fair to scream "SCAM" just because you don't know all the information. Are you aware that Wilhelmina PA had exclusive rights to PA Fashion Week this year, & that aside from their own local girls, they flew in girls from Wilhelmina NY?  Are you aware of the strong bond they have with larger Wilhelmina's allowing for easier placement of their talent in larger markets?

Let me ask you this- another photographer asks you to teach him a thing or two. He wants all your wisdom & is willing to pay for it. You don't think he's got the talent, but are you going to not teach him anyway???

How does he know it? Well because that's how "sub agencies" work. SIMPLE.

Yes, they are operating legally, yes they have the right to use  Wilhelmina's name, but that does NOT mean they are the best agency choice for an aspiring model. They make most of their money off of classes, not bookings. They will take almost anyone.

The Fitting Room wrote:
How do you know any of this? Are you Wilhelmina's personal accountant?? I don't think it's fair to scream "SCAM" just because you don't know all the information. Are you aware that Wilhelmina PA had exclusive rights to PA Fashion Week this year, & that aside from their own local girls, they flew in girls from Wilhelmina NY?  Are you aware of the strong bond they have with larger Wilhelmina's allowing for easier placement of their talent in larger markets?

Let me ask you this- another photographer asks you to teach him a thing or two. He wants all your wisdom & is willing to pay for it. You don't think he's got the talent, but are you going to not teach him anyway???

AngelicaAswald wrote:
How does he know it? Well because that's how "sub agencies" work. SIMPLE.

Yes, they are operating legally, yes they have the right to use  Wilhelmina's name, but that does NOT mean they are the best agency choice for an aspiring model. They make most of their money off of classes, not bookings. They will take almost anyone.

Exactly.  Thank you, Angela.  Not only is that how smaller regional agencies, including those that license big names, work, but (as has been cited in NUMEROUS threads about Wilhelmina Pa) the people running THIS particular agency have a HISTORY of doing so under several names, including criminal proceedings & investigations against them.  It's ALL a matter of public record.

As for your second question, you're basically saying "So what if someone has no chance of being a model, go ahead & feed their false dreams & take their money ANYWAY to teach them ABSOLUTELY WORTHLESS 'classes,' after all, you'd do it in photography, wouldn't you?"

Aside from it being not a 100% accurate analogy, don't assume that because you apparently don't have scruples & ethics that I don't either.  It's frankly insulting.

The Fitting Room wrote:
Clearly neither one of you know as much as you think you do, because no, this is NOT how all sub agencies work.

But hey, what would I know? Take advice from the 20 year old without an agency or a clue & the "photographer" who clearly hasn't worked with an agency or anyone affiliated with one in his whole career. They probably know what's what.

Wow. Is that supposed to hurt me, because it just gave me lolz. I know what I'm talking about because it's common sense. I don't know what too tell you, that is how "Sub-agencies" work. Barbizon, John Robert Powers and now Wilhelmina...simple. Get off your high horse.

The Fitting Room wrote:
Clearly neither one of you know as much as you think you do, because no, this is NOT how all sub agencies work.

But hey, what would I know? Take advice from the 20 year old without an agency or a clue & the "photographer" who clearly hasn't worked with an agency or anyone affiliated with one in his whole career. They probably know what's what.

It's pretty well known that this IS how must small regional agencies work, whether they license a name from a big agency or not, and you're defending one in particular that has a state criminal record for doing so in a deliberately misleading fashion.

Engaging in personal attacks doesn't support your position.  And FWIW you don't know anything about me.  No, I don't shoot for agencies.  But in my day job I work with them, including NYC agencies and people at the real Wilhelmina there.  My largest client's Long Island based & I'm up there 2-3 times a year to do ad work for them.

Failing to offer anything substantive to bolster your argument & instead saying "You're wrong & not credible, so THERE " says far more about your argument than it does about us. 

The Fitting Room wrote:
Clearly neither one of you know as much as you think you do, because no, this is NOT how all sub agencies work.

But hey, what would I know? Take advice from the 20 year old without an agency or a clue & the "photographer" who clearly hasn't worked with an agency or anyone affiliated with one in his whole career. They probably know what's what.

I love the freakin Mayhem..how can a simple question thread turn into people throwing insults....you're being completely out of line..

Forums are meant to answer or try and answer the OP's question..not insult other members...

Christina Szabo wrote:

I love the freakin Mayhem..how can a simple question thread turn into people throwing insults....you're being completely out of line..

Forums are meant to answer or try and answer the OP's question..not insult other members...

Do you know what else is out of line? Slander. I already explained how I have the information I have- I spoke to Wilhelmina NY about it. How do you know what your talking about? Because it's "common knowledge?" I don't know what it is you do for agencies sir, but it can't have much to do with the inner workings or YOU would have
more evidence to support YOUR claim.

Would it be fair of me to start telling models to not work with you because "insert scandalous rumor here"? I'm not lying, it's pretty obvious that that's how photographers like you work. I don't have any substantial proof, it's just obvious. Common knowledge..

Get it???

The Fitting Room wrote:
Do you know what else is out of line? Slander. I already explained how I have the information I have- I spoke to Wilhelmina NY about it. How do you know what your talking about? Because it's "common knowledge?" I don't know what it is you do for agencies sir, but it can't have much to do with the inner workings or YOU would have
more evidence to support YOUR claim.

Would it be fair of me to start telling models to not work with you because "insert scandalous rumor here"? I'm not lying, it's pretty obvious that that's how photographers like you work. I don't have any substantial proof, it's just obvious. Common knowledge..

Get it???

Support our claim. See the criminal record the owners have.

No one got rude with you, so don't start that shit with us.

The Fitting Room wrote:
Do you know what else is out of line? Slander. I already explained how I have the information I have- I spoke to Wilhelmina NY about it. How do you know what your talking about? Because it's "common knowledge?" I don't know what it is you do for agencies sir, but it can't have much to do with the inner workings or YOU would have
more evidence to support YOUR claim.

Would it be fair of me to start telling models to not work with you because "insert scandalous rumor here"? I'm not lying, it's pretty obvious that that's how photographers like you work. I don't have any substantial proof, it's just obvious. Common knowledge..

Get it???

I never disputed that these people bough a license to use the Wilhelmina name.  Neither have most of the other posters in several other threads (some linked here) about them.

What we HAVE pointed out is that such "affiliation" is, for practical purposes, meaningless & that one of the major reasons the responsible parties went to the expense of purchasing the Wilhelmina name was to try & buy some credibility after criminal & civil proceedings against their business under its former names for exactly the sort of fraudulent and unethical behavior we're warning people to watch out for in these threads.

I'm curious as to why it's SO important to you to defend people who have that kind of track record, especially if you read thru all the threads about this & see posts from people who've lost their money AND posts from working agency shooters & models who tell folks to stay away.

Heck, I even noted (as I and others have done in these threads) that a FEW people CAN get work thru such agencies.  What we tell people is that they need to look at whether most of the business at the agency comes from CLIENTS or from selling junk to the models they sign, to look carefully at what percentage of signed models ACTUALLY get work, and to make wise decisions about wasting money n the agencies if told they HAVE to do so to succeed.

Why would you dispute that sort of VERY valid advice so strenuously?

As for "my" claims, they're not mine, they're the claims of NUMEROUS people and if you go thru these threads they've been backed up with news reports, public records, and links to state websites in Pa.  It's all publicly documented.  The evidence is ALL THERE if you care to go read it.

I don't know what sort of scandalous rumor you're talking about, but it's NOT slander OR libel OR defamation if you can show FACTS, which CAN be shown about these people in Pa but not about me. 

Oh, and since it's apparently TOO difficult for you to read the earlier posts in this thread, I copied & pasted this:

https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=526151
(that one has the info on Kelli Harman, the original owner, with links to some of her legal problems)

The Fitting Room wrote:

Do you know what else is out of line? Slander. I already explained how I have the information I have- I spoke to Wilhelmina NY about it. How do you know what your talking about? Because it's "common knowledge?" I don't know what it is you do for agencies sir, but it can't have much to do with the inner workings or YOU would have
more evidence to support YOUR claim.

Would it be fair of me to start telling models to not work with you because "insert scandalous rumor here"? I'm not lying, it's pretty obvious that that's how photographers like you work. I don't have any substantial proof, it's just obvious. Common knowledge..

Get it???

Dear I said nothing about who is right or who is wrong in this thread...but why start a fight and throw insults at other MM members just because they don't agree with your opinion....yes "opinion"

The Fitting Room wrote:
Clearly neither one of you know as much as you think you do, because no, this is NOT how all sub agencies work.

But hey, what would I know? Take advice from the 20 year old without an agency or a clue & the "photographer" who clearly hasn't worked with an agency or anyone affiliated with one in his whole career. They probably know what's what.

Hi. You're a troll, and have no fucking clue what you are talking about.

I hope the Midol kicks in soon, and that you feel better.

The Original Sin wrote:
Hi. You're a troll, and have no fucking clue what you are talking about.

I hope the Midol kicks in soon, and that you feel better.

I just fell in love with you

AngelicaAswald wrote:

I just fell in love with you

That happens sometimes.  Orgy?