Looknsee Photography wrote:
Wow -- we went three whole days without yet another flake thread starting.

Chuckarelei wrote:
So what? This is the most popular topic here, along with escorts an nudes.

The "so what" is this:

>>>  Yes, it's popular, but perhaps it's popular because ...
   1)  The people who started the threads haven't bothered reading the previous ones.
   2)  The people experiencing flakes haven't figured out how to avoid them.

>>>  To me, the offensive part is how everyone immediately becomes sympathetic to the poor flaked-upon photographer before we hear both sides of the story.  Sure, some flakes are the fault of the flaking model, but I've got to say that if a photographer is experiencing a large percentage of flakes, it's time to consider that the photographer is the one who could use improvement to their management techniques.

Dylan White  wrote:
Hello

So I had a shoot set up for today and not one, but two models canceled on me the day of....with a freaking txt.

What do you photographers think about this?

Well I shoot at home and always scrub the heck out of the place before a shoot. So when a model flakes, at least I got my place cleaned!

Looknsee Photography wrote:

The "so what" is this:

>>>  Yes, it's popular, but perhaps it's popular because ...
   1)  The people who started the threads haven't bothered reading the previous ones.
   2)  The people experiencing flakes haven't figured out how to avoid them.

>>>  To me, the offensive part is how everyone immediately becomes sympathetic to the poor flaked-upon photographer before we hear both sides of the story.  Sure, some flakes are the fault of the flaking model, but I've got to say that if a photographer is experiencing a large percentage of flakes, it's time to consider that the photographer is the one who could use improvement to their management techniques.

It is not offensive to me, but I do find it irritating that we get so many threads complaining about "flakes!"   Either they don't search for other posts, or they don't care to learn positive techniques to reducing the chances or even preventing flaking from happening.  I posted what I thought was a good one with tips that I have used that work for me.  I have never had a model flakes, and I have only a few that are late.  https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … 2526&page=

Looknsee Photography wrote:
...>>>  To me, the offensive part is how everyone immediately becomes sympathetic to the poor flaked-upon photographer before we hear both sides of the story.  Sure, some flakes are the fault of the flaking model, but I've got to say that if a photographer is experiencing a large percentage of flakes, it's time to consider that the photographer is the one who could use improvement to their management techniques.

Actually I wonder why people want to take the time to announce to the MM site
that people didn't want to shoot with them, whatever role they play in a shoot!

SteveL Images wrote:
Well I shoot at home and always scrub the heck out of the place before a shoot. So when a model flakes, at least I got my place cleaned!

Said sarcastically ... "Well that explains why my place is a toxic dump!  I never have time to clean because not even one damn model will be considerate enough to flake so I have the time to clean!"  -but it's the truth!  /sarcasm 

Miss Anthrope 1007 wrote:

Actually I wonder why people want to take the time to announce to the MM site
that people didn't want to shoot with them, whatever role they play in a shoot!

Either that or come up with a thread as to why everyone wants to shoot with them so much that they have never had a flake! https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … 2526&page=

It's one of may positive threads I've started that just get buried ... I suppose it's because they lack the drama that others have.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
The "so what" is this:

>>>  Yes, it's popular, but perhaps it's popular because ...
   1)  The people who started the threads haven't bothered reading the previous ones.
   2)  The people experiencing flakes haven't figured out how to avoid them.

>>>  To me, the offensive part is how everyone immediately becomes sympathetic to the poor flaked-upon photographer before we hear both sides of the story.  Sure, some flakes are the fault of the flaking model, but I've got to say that if a photographer is experiencing a large percentage of flakes, it's time to consider that the photographer is the one who could use improvement to their management techniques.

1) Even if people have read it. People still want to rant them being flaked on. That's fact. Much like you read all those flake threads, you still participate in this another 'flake' thread.

2) There is no fool proof 99% flake free method on how to avoid them.

There have also been new flake threads on photographers, MUA, HS, and any other category of members here. Perhaps not to the degree of models, but that could be just the reflection of the statistics?

As far as jumping on the third parties, it's a pretty common practice here, or anywhere else for that matter. Just a human gossip nature.

However, if someone experiences a large number of flakes. I do agree it might have something to do with that person.

Angele wrote:
I disagree with 19. So if I ask you to shoot regardless of compensation im automatically considered a possible flake? thats bs

None of these (with the exception of not giving their cell phone number) is an absolute.  Even several doesn't guarantee a flake.

As for 19 itself, I don't understand it but I'd say 75%+ of those have been flakes in my experience.  Doesn't mean the other 25% were great to work with. 

It's been interesting that 19 has been one of the most agreed with by photographers in the forums.

PYPI FASHION wrote:

This absolutely cracks me up.  In part, because it's funny and in part, because it's true!!

Rik Austin wrote:
15.  Says in their profile if they can't bring her escort she won't come.  10 billion threads on escorts but points to remember:  1) that's one more person to flake and kill the shoot  2) so much interference at the shoot that its a waste of time  3) depends on who the escort is - very important  4) should always be discussed first.
If they say "escort the first time or if the photographer doesn't have 3-5 references" and the model actually has experience, my experience has been good.

ok now it is true that this always ..and I mean always happens....all of the above is pretty accurate with the exception to good ol # 15...If a model wants to bring an escort and it is arranged before hand that said escort knows to be there out of the way and not interrupting the shoot..then let them do it for their peace of mind.. if it helps them to be comfortable and relaxed for the shoot then I say go for it..we all know that there are as many flaky photographers aka walmart photographers out there you go and buy a cam then think they can get women to take off their clothes in the performance of so called art..I dont know about you..but they are out there..everywhere as well...It is no wonder that more and more models want escorts these days...I say..let them...at least until they know who you are...now I am not saying that in big production shoots to let these escorts on the set..there is no place for them there..but in the waiting area..sure why not....just a thought..
J
JSalt SnapShots
www.jsaltsnapshots.com

Rik Austin wrote:
15.  Says in their profile if they can't bring her escort she won't come.  10 billion threads on escorts but points to remember:  1) that's one more person to flake and kill the shoot

IMHO, that's one of the worst issues as far as escorts, friends, other models they've invited, etc., with the shoot being an all or nothing affair.

And I can imagine that many flakes are the result of other parties that weren't even mentioned wimping out.

Cat herding sucks.

Chuckarelei wrote:
1) Even if people have read it. People still want to rant them being flaked on. That's fact. Much like you read all those flake threads, you still participate in this another 'flake' thread.

In my opinion, such rants are counter-productive:
>>>  For those photographers who are the ones at fault, it encourages them to
        blame the models and not to examine how they can improve their flake ratio.

>>>  It announces to the world that people don't respect them.

Chuckarelei wrote:
2) There is no fool proof 99% flake free method on how to avoid them.

Perhaps.  I did experience one flake in the last fifteen years. 

While there is no foolproof flake prevention technique, but I also believe that some photographers experience worse flake ratios than others, even when they are working with the same pool of models.  If flakes occur to you often enough to inspire rants, there probably are things you can/should do to improve your odds.  Or, if you prefer, you can rant in public & continue to do the same thing that you have been doing, but if so, you'd be a fool to expect improved results.

Chuckarelei wrote:
There have also been new flake threads on photographers, MUA, HS, and any other category of members here. Perhaps not to the degree of models, but that could be just the reflection of the statistics?

I can believe that models will not rant as much about photographer flakes because photographers tend to be the one hiring the models and models are more dependent upon photographers for getting work.  But I'm willing to guess that no one group (model, photographer, MUA, etc.) is immune from having members flake.

Chuckarelei wrote:
As far as jumping on the third parties, it's a pretty common practice here, or anywhere else for that matter. Just a human gossip nature.

Perhaps.  I am a skeptic, and I have training as a scientist.  I require proof before passing judgment, and I just want to point out that when a photographer comes here to rant, we usually don't hear the whole story.

I try to be fair minded, and I believe that my excellent flake ratio is due, in part, to the respect I extend to models.  When fool photographers automatically blame models for all their problems, I do get offended.  I apologize if I become hot headed.

Chuckarelei wrote:
However, if someone experiences a large number of flakes. I do agree it might have something to do with that person.

There you go.

Vixxa Violet wrote:
Flakes suck. They give us real models a bad name.

I think, if you dont flake, it can work to your advantage. Your name would be mentioned as a reliable model so may be generating more opportunities for you...

But yeah flakes suck!!!!

Skydancer wrote:
I think it's not unheard of to be disappointed by the actions of models, photographers, MUAs, stylists, friends, delivery people, politicians, babysitters, boyfriends, girlfriends, wives, husbands, daughters, sons... but cats and dogs are pretty reliable, in my experience.

Lauren Klemm wrote:

Lauren Klemm wrote:

Patrick Walberg wrote:
  So then just photograph cats and dogs?   Maybe I should add that to the list of how to avoid flakes?  Problem is that I have had dogs and cats be uncooperative once they got there.  Still;  https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … 526&page=1

Actually I hear it pays great to photograph pets and animal,
the prices people are willing to pay for pictures of animals they see everyday...
(slight thread jack sorry)

L.

Lauren Klemm wrote:

Actually I hear it pays great to photograph pets and animal,
the prices people are willing to pay for pictures of animals they see everyday...
(slight thread jack sorry)

L.

Actually I find that pet photography can be as challenging as photographing models.  Try bringing the two together! 

ZingArts wrote:
It happens.

No, it does not.  At least it has never happened to me.
https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … 526&page=1

M. Wrath  wrote:
Did someone just copy and paste the last flake thread in here?

It's not a damn flake thread!  It's a thread that is about how to avoid flakes! 
https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … 526&page=1
Maybe ... just maybe if people were to discuss how to avoid flakes instead of ranting and raving about 'em ... there would be no more "flake" threads.  I'm only trying to help because I never have flakes, and I'm tired of the flake threads.  Is that alright with you?

Patrick Walberg wrote:

It's not a damn flake thread!  It's a thread that is about how to avoid flakes! 
https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … 526&page=1
Maybe ... just maybe if people were to discuss how to avoid flakes instead of ranting and raving about 'em ... there would be no more "flake" threads.  I'm only trying to help because I never have flakes, and I'm tired of the flake threads.  Is that alright with you?

Then why participate in the thread?

Dylan White  wrote:
Hello

So I had a shoot set up for today and not one, but two models canceled on me the day of....with a freaking txt.

What do you photographers think about this?

Why do I get the feeling that these are TFP models?

Patrick Walberg wrote:

It's not a damn flake thread!  It's a thread that is about how to avoid flakes! 
https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … 526&page=1
Maybe ... just maybe if people were to discuss how to avoid flakes instead of ranting and raving about 'em ... there would be no more "flake" threads.  I'm only trying to help because I never have flakes, and I'm tired of the flake threads.  Is that alright with you?

Yeah, lighten up son. Its a thread. Its not gonna stop flakes. Good work and communication is about all that will.

James Sioux wrote:

Why do I get the feeling that these are TFP models?

First, lately I've known photographers who can't get models to show up for PAID work.  Money isn't a guarantee anymore.

I just had a model text me last night that she no longer wanted to do the topless stuff she'd agreed to do hoped that it "wasn't an issue."

I said it was, that per our discussion we wouldn't be trading and I quoted her a very cheap rate.  She was rather shocked, telling me the other photographer's had elected to continue the shoot.

She found out I was different.

Blanchard Photography wrote:
Is it considered a "flake" if they sent you a text to say they weren't coming? I always thought the model, mua, or photographer who no showed without an explanation was considered that. I need to update my notes.

I call that a cancellation.

A flake is when they don't call, and don't pick up the phone when you do.

Dylan White  wrote:
Hello

So I had a shoot set up for today and not one, but two models canceled on me the day of....with a freaking txt.

What do you photographers think about this?

that's what they do...it's a sign of the times, and you can hardly blame them, since society tells them doing business via text, e-mail, twitter, myspace, facebook, mindspring,etc, is ok.

Luminos wrote:
You can do everything in the link above, and still get flakes.

And it's nothing new.

I was shooting a commercial ad for a magazine.   The model was a pro I had used before and agency represented.   The pay (from the client to model, me, lighting, and makeup) all was excellent.   The model was contacted the day before and the morning of the shoot, and confirmed (old fashioned land-line phones back then - it was easier to reach people without voice mail.)

Flaked.   She just didn't show.   We still don't know why.  But the job went to the agency reps backup standing the in wings.  She was happy for it.

Flaking is nothing new.  And there is no cure.   You can reduce, but you can't eliminate.

exactly! a honorable person will be honorable

Bill Cumberland wrote:
I think the problem is that many if not most of the models on MM are amatuers which means Day Jobs as well as the usual panaoply of  personal problems (especialy those that affect the 20ish crowd). I suspect this is whart causes flakieness.

I think the behavior of flaking on the model's part is a more and more acceptable practice among models.  It's the "in" thing to do.  Photographers let them off the hook too easily.  Nobody tells them that it's not ok to flake so they think it's ok and they do this more and more.  They really don't give a rats ass how much pre-work you have put in, they can't show up they can't show up.  You're #10 on their priority list, so that's what happens.

Whenever a model flakes on me, I would write them a very unfriendly note telling them it's not ok to do this for no good reason, I will never work with them again and will propagate this information whenever possible.  All of us photogs have heard all the excuses like women have heard all the pickup lines.

One thing you could do to minimize flakes is to pay them.  Yes, pay models.  All of a sudden, the table is reversed, you're in control, you can flake.

Miss Anthrope 1007 wrote:

Actually I wonder why people want to take the time to announce to the MM site
that people didn't want to shoot with them, whatever role they play in a shoot!

cause no one likes to have their time wasted, and they're venting

James Sioux wrote:

I think the behavior of flaking on the model's part is a more and more acceptable practice among model.  It's the "in" thing to do.  Photographers let them off the hook too easily.  Nobody tells them that it's not ok to flake so they think it's ok and they do this more and more.  They really don't give a rats ass how much pre-work you have put in, they can't show up they can't show up.  You're #10 on their priority list, so that's what happens.

Whenever a model flakes on me, I would write them a very unfriendly note telling them it's not ok to do this for no good reason, I will never work with them again and will propagate this information whenever possible.  All of us photogs have heard all the excuses like women have heard all the pickup lines.

One thing you could do to minimize flakes is to pay them.  Yes, pay models.  All of a sudden, the table is reversed, you're in control, you can flake.

I've seen girls flake on paid gigs too...a lot of them are co-dependent, or think they're Naomi Cambpell

James Sioux wrote:
I think the behavior of flaking on the model's part is a more and more acceptable practice among models.  It's the "in" thing to do.  Photographers let them off the hook too easily.  Nobody tells them that it's not ok to flake so they think it's ok and they do this more and more.  They really don't give a rats ass how much pre-work you have put in, they can't show up they can't show up.  You're #10 on their priority list, so that's what happens.

Whenever a model flakes on me, I would write them a very unfriendly note telling them it's not ok to do this for no good reason, I will never work with them again and will propagate this information whenever possible.  All of us photogs have heard all the excuses like women have heard all the pickup lines.

One thing you could do to minimize flakes is to pay them.  Yes, pay models.  All of a sudden, the table is reversed, you're in control, you can flake.

Its not the "in" thing to do. People who are serious about modeling don't flake. Also as of you being in control so you can flake? That is bullshit if I ever say it. I truly hope you dont practice that with your models. Models are not the only ones who flake either. It happens..you move on and learn from it.

Angele wrote:

Its not the "in" thing to do. People who are serious about modeling don't flake. Also as of you being in control so you can flake? That is bullshit if I ever say it. I truly hope you dont practice that with your models. Models are not the only ones who flake either. It happens..you move on and learn from it.

if you mean that if it's their priority, they won't "flake" you're absolutely correct...however, that doesn't mean that someone who has lost interest, doesn't have some obligation to be honest and say "no thank you" in a reasonable amount of time, to give the other party some options. I have no idea why people think that other people's time means nothing..to think so is, selfish, insulting, and beyond rude.

pullins photography wrote:
I've seen girls flake on paid gigs too...a lot of them are co-dependent, or think they're Naomi Cambpell

I have yet to have a PAID model flake on me.  But, paying the models is not a sure way to eliminate no shows, it will only minimize.  When you pay them $300 for 3 hours to shoot, they will do everything they can to show up.  Choose professional models too.  No amateurs or not serious models.   Models need $$$ to survive, so you're the king when money is in your pocket.  Some models might be saying "oh, it's for the art" I'd say that's a bunch of BS.  I have yet to meet a model who would pose totally nude or open leg for free.  My work sucks, that's why I need to pay.