Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
This Thread Is 7 Years Old . . . and the OP hasn't been on in almost 2 years . . .

And retouchers are still a pain with tags etc.

Ad Alex wrote:
I have explored the MM forums a bit more in recent days and it seems there is some class war going on here. Models moan about photographers, photographers moan about models and retouchers, and retouchers are like some low form of life here annoying and spamming everyone. It is all very strange to me.

It is not strange if you understand the reasons for it:

1. Photographers sometimes act like jerks. So models complain.
2. Models sometimes act like jerks. So photographers complain.
3. Most retouchers learn from those pop-teachers who tell them to 'network like crazy' (=spam). And because there are too many people who think they will make a fortune by simply watching Youtube videos and playing with Photoshop, the result is quite obvious - quantity prevails over quality, same images in thousands of portfolios, poorly processed etc.

Maybe they should get rid of those tags below avatar and treat everyone like people in the first place.

Profile types are not the issue. The site simply has no functionality which would help quality to go on top. As long as ads run, some members pay for premium/vip and considering how many of the site feature requests were fulfilled - I doubt much will change.

anchev wrote:
It is not strange if you understand the reasons for it:

1. Photographers sometimes act like jerks. So models complain.
2. Models sometimes act like jerks. So photographers complain.
3. Most retouchers learn from those pop-teachers who tell them to 'network like crazy' (=spam). And because there are too many people who think they will make a fortune by simply watching Youtube videos and playing with Photoshop, the result is quite obvious - quantity prevails over quality, same images in thousands of portfolios, poorly processed etc.


Profile types are not the issue. The site simply has no functionality which would help quality to go on top. As long as ads run, some members pay for premium/vip and considering how many of the site feature requests were fulfilled - I doubt much will change.

Call me crazy, but I don't think having same images processed time and time again to be a bad thing. Of course, I say that, because I'm guilty of that too. I joined as "retoucher" and haven't even considered posting my own images. Give the same RAW image to 20 retouchers and you get 20 different versions. It is quite easy then to judge if certain retoucher has style I want / like. We are all different, got different taste, use different tools and like different look. Just because some images are processed more than others, doesn't mean to me that somebody is worse / bad. My personal opinion on that matter is that beauty images, as oppose to casual portraits or headshots, look better with near-perfect skin... but that is a matter for a different thread.

As for the class war, I understand the reason. Just the extend of it surprised me.

Ad Alex wrote:
Call me crazy, but I don't think having same images processed time and time again to be a bad thing.

I don't need to call you anything. I never intended to.

Of course, I say that, because I'm guilty of that too. I joined as "retoucher" and haven't even considered posting my own images. Give the same RAW image to 20 retouchers and you get 20 different versions. It is quite easy then to judge if certain retoucher has style I want / like. We are all different, got different taste, use different tools and like different look. Just because some images are processed more than others, doesn't mean to me that somebody is worse / bad. My personal opinion on that matter is that beauty images, as oppose to casual portraits or headshots, look better with near-perfect skin... but that is a matter for a different thread.

The job of the retoucher is NOT to "have style" but to follow correctly the stylistic directions of the client (art director, photographer etc). The problem with the thousands of similar portfolios is that

1) These are usually low quality images (aesthetically) posted in the forums/groups by people without any direction, very often for the sake of getting more public exposure and/or work done for free. Quite often these are throw away shots which they simply hope to improve by post-processing but of course that is not possible as retouching is not replacement for photography, styling and casting

2) The retoucher can not learn anything from that and it does not help to develop skills needed in actual work for client. In fact that actually helps to learn wrong things.

3) That additionally endorses the misconception about the retoucher "having a style". Retoucher should not influence the image with his personality in any way (unless one retouches one's own images perhaps).

4) Hence all these portfolios showcase a totally wrong approach to the whole process of post-production and obviously when so many people do this, it is not worth anything.

anchev wrote:
[
I don't need to call you anything. I never intended to.


The job of the retoucher is NOT to "have style" but to follow correctly the stylistic directions of the client (art director, photographer etc). The problem with the thousands of similar portfolios is that

1) These are usually low quality images (aesthetically) posted in the forums/groups by people without any direction, very often for the sake of getting more public exposure and/or work done for free. Quite often these are throw away shots which they simply hope to improve by post-processing but of course that is not possible as retouching is not replacement for photography, styling and casting

2) The retoucher can not learn anything from that and it does not help to develop skills needed in actual work for client. In fact that actually helps to learn wrong things.

3) That additionally endorses the misconception about the retoucher "having a style". Retoucher should not influence the image with his personality in any way (unless one retouches one's own images perhaps).

4) Hence all these portfolios showcase a totally wrong approach to the whole process of post-production and obviously when so many people do this, it is not worth anything.

We all have a "style", whether you like it or not. You have said it yourself, if there are no clear guidelines, rules, then you are free to let your creativity go. Hence, people retouch them in a different way. However, IF you are working to a strict guidelines, then I completely agree with you. And while I agree that most of those images are low quality left overs, there are some that are better than others. Just as a photographer practises lighting and does some mock shoots, retouchers practice with what they have. And it is not for me to judge whether that is good or bad. If there was no market for a $5 per photo retouch, there would be no retouchers offering such service, and spamming photographers with their offers, which takes us back to the original issue.

Ad Alex wrote:
You have said it yourself, if there are no clear guidelines, rules, then you are free to let your creativity go. Hence, people retouch them in a different way.

I have never said anything like that. Retouching is not "letting your creativity go". It is not a creative process. You are not creating anything. You are manipulating what is already there and that is not creativity. The term "creative retouching" is yet another meaningless marketing phrase.

However, IF you are working to a strict guidelines, then I completely agree with you.

The issue I am discussing is that if the portfolio does not show this, verbal agreement has no meaning. You don't simply publish some photos with a text notice "I can retouch them differently if you want, this is just how I play with Photoshop". There must be an objective and reason behind anything a retoucher does, even if he is entitled to help partially with the direction.

And while I agree that most of those images are low quality left overs, there are some that are better than others.

Sure. But a less worse image does not equal a good one. And for portfolio one needs good ones. Just think: what "different taste" does one show if he picks the exact same content on which 1000 others simply apply the tools with different settings? Is that the basis on which quality of work is to be evaluated?

Just as a photographer practices lighting and does some mock shoots, retouchers practice with what they have. And it is not for me to judge whether that is good or bad.

Practicing in order to learn techniques is something entirely different from portfolio presentation.

If there was no market for a $5 per photo retouch, there would be no retouchers offering such service, and spamming photographers with their offers, which takes us back to the original issue.

But there is a market for child porn, drugs, weapons, kidnapping for organs and for prostitution, slavery, war etc. Does the market demand justify all disgusting things?

Ad Alex wrote:
Let's just agree to disagree here.

Just as a photographer is booked to do a certain shoot following strict rules based on his style, a retoucher is booked based on his previous work. In a portfolio you don't get text explaining what the rules were for such and such image, you just get images and you base your valuation on the visul form. What you are describing here when you talk about retouching, is work of a nameless robot. That is not how it works in life. Just as photographers, models and makeup artist follow strict guideline to make a shoot succeess, each and one of them adds a bit of themselves into it and makes the shoot unique. Give the same rules and shoot to a different set of people and the results will not be exactly the same. We are not robots.

And I also disagree that retouching is not a creative process. Just as photographers, models and MUA following guidelines add a bit of themselves to each job, just the same thing happens with retouchers. If we all were robots creating the same images, it would be just a question of finding the cheapest robot and it would have done the same job as the expensive one but for less. That's not how it works. And maybe that is the reason why retouchers get such a bad opinion here. I don't understand why they work is meant to be less valued than other team members.

You don't understand because you reject to. And I don't have the time.

Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
This Thread Is 7 Years Old . . . and the OP hasn't been on in almost 2 years . . .

So true... and ya know the really sad thing about this is?... I STILL get TAGs and friend requests from several retouchers every week.  Gotta be a few hundred thousand here at least...

Select Models wrote:
So true... and ya know the really sad thing about this is?... I STILL get TAGs and friend requests from several retouchers every week.  Gotta be a few hundred thousand here at least...

I get regular messages through my photography website for the like of clipping services from India or China. That together with SEO spam has forced me to remove all of my contact details from the website leaving only contact form... and I still get them. Just like the one I got this morning.

It's the photographers fault for using those services in the first place, creating the market for it. Same as the $5 edit service that get advertised here often. Not you, not me, but somebody has been using them, because there is clearly market for it.

Ad Alex wrote:
Your theory is quite simple to test. Take the same RAW file image and commission 5 high end retouchers (the ones who you think have no own style) with exactly the same instructions. Will you get the same file back from each 5? Even if you specify colour value for each thing in the photo, plus clear instructions as what needs to be done, I very much doubt, you will get 5 exactly the same images. Just as if you commission 5 photographers for the same shoot. 5 MUA, etc.

Of course, in theory, you should get 5 exactly same images after hiring 5 separate teams to do same shoot. But we live in real world and it doesn't work like that. Last time I checked, people don't get booked only because they can only follow guidelines. They get booked because of their expertise, their personality, because of the value they can add, and because of their style, as in that extra sparkle. Since when a creative process of working on an image became automated factory routine?

My retouching is part of my overall photographer style. I can follow guidelines and try to make an image as close to them as possible, but it still won't be exactly the same as your work. Hence the need for portfolios. What is the point of a portfolio, if every edit would be just the same?

Alex, I am not theorizing anything. I am simply pointing out certain facts. One can philosophize to infinity about creativity, taste and personality but the fact is - there are actually lots of robots who blindly repeat all those words, all the techniques handed down to them by the people who teach "high end retouching" (another marketing phrase without factual meaning) and obviously also repeat the same mistake to spam on everyone. You can argue with that, reject it verbally but verbal rejection cannot remove the actual fact - most people act just like programmed robots. They tell you "this is super good high end" and you do it. They promise you will be successful - and you do it. They tell you D&B is something superb - and you put it in your profile description as something superb. They tell you that by critique you improve - and you surrender yourself to their arrogance. Whatever they tell you - you do it, repeat it, praise it, quote it. Of course I don't mean you personally - talking in general.

Forgive me but I have no time for this discussion. Most retouchers are spammers. That is a fact, not a theory.

anchev wrote:

Alex, I am not theorizing anything. I am simply pointing out certain facts. One can philosophize to infinity about creativity, taste and personality but the fact is - there are actually lots of robots who blindly repeat all those words, all the techniques handed down to them by the people who teach "high end retouching" (another marketing phrase without factual meaning) and obviously also repeat the same mistake to spam on everyone. You can argue with that, reject it verbally but verbal rejection cannot remove the actual fact - most people act just like programmed robots. They tell you "this is super good high end" and you do it. They promise you will be successful - and you do it. They tell you D&B is something superb - and you put it in your profile description as something superb. They tell you that by critique you improve - and you surrender yourself to their arrogance. Whatever they tell you - you do it, repeat it, praise it, quote it. Of course I don't mean you personally - talking in general.

Forgive me but I have no time for this discussion. Most retouchers are spammers. That is a fact, not a theory.

It's too bad you don't have time for the discussion. I'm always happy to talk to people with experience and knowledge.

And just for the record, I have never disputed the fact that most retouchers are spammers. Judging by this thread and what I can see in the Retouching section, I would agree with that.

It was a pleasure. Take care

Thomas Anomalous wrote:
In July of 2016 I made a forum post that said "I have been barraged with constant repeated MM friend requests from Ukrainian photo retouchers.  Anyone else having this experience?  Is this the latest scam fad or something?"

And then in this thread the following month I asked:   "All of the people spamming me with retouch offers are Ukrainians.  It's like I'm on some telemarketing list in Ukraine.  How many Ukrainian retouchers are out there?  It seems like an inexhaustible deluge."

I NEVER respond to these creeps, but the barrage of Ukrainian retoucher spam goes on.  Today, 14 months later, one of these Ukrainian jerks, apparently pissed that I raised the question, wrote this on my page:  "If you took the time to read my fucking profile you fucking low life you would have read that i do not wish to be fucking contacted by you miserable bottom feeding scum sucking low life's". 

This would be amusing except that I've never contacted or even heard of this person in my entire life.   These assholes are becoming a real plague.  Is there some way we can set up a block feature which automatically deletes comments and inquiries from "retouchers"?

This guy has the same story with the same tag
https://www.modelmayhem.com/forums/post/969346
It seems you deleted the tag
I wonder if its from same person ?

Thomas Anomalous wrote:
yeah, its the same person.  seems to have bombed a lot of people's pages.

Seems like he's been kicked off the site
Could have been a troll Acct