Photographer
DC Photo - Inactive
Posts: 4949
Trenton, New Jersey, US
Sekxii wrote: It's a personal choice. Personally, I think all touching between strangers is unacceptable unless one person is on fire or there is some other emergency. That's why we have language so we don't have to touch each other. If the model can't take non-physical direction, then just end the shoot. Models are not robots.. they're human and whether someone wants to be touched or not is a personal choice. Modeling is a job. Some jobs require a level of physical contact. Modeling requires time in wardrobe (being touched), time in makeup (being touched), time in hair (being touched). If a person is afraid of or does not want to have physical contact, he/she probably should probably not be pursuing modeling as a career/hobby. There are male and female MUAs, male and female wardrobe stylists and male and female hairstylists. So everyone else on the team is allowed to make professional physical contact to do their job, except the photographer? Is that what you are saying? If the photographer can just "explain everything" instead of touching, then surely the MUA, hairstylist and wardrobe stylist can just "explain everything" too, right?
Photographer
Luke Lenz
Posts: 701
Berlin, Berlin, Germany
Sekxii wrote: Personally, I think all touching between strangers is unacceptable unless one person is on fire or there is some other emergency. That's why we have language so we don't have to touch each other. If the model can't take non-physical direction, then just end the shoot. Strangers are two people passing on a footpath. Shoots, the photographer and model are friends for at least the shoot, maybe shoot again, maybe never to meet again but friends for that shoot. That's how a shoot runs, a friendship to bond and work together as one. If the model, as you believe, sees the photographer as a stranger and the photographer likewise, just how well will those images come out do you think? Try Distant-Cold-Unconnected. During a shoot I take responsibility for the model, strangers I pass on the street, I don't. "If the model can't take non-physical direction, then just end the shoot." Oh end it just like that. Are we talking about declining a piece of extra toast that was made for you at breakfast? What about the booked & paid for MUA/Stylist/studio/? Just end them too, just like that. Fail to Prepare, Prepare to Fail. Is a great saying. As far as your "That's why we have language so we don't have to touch each other." so what to do with those stray hairs across the face, use words to coax the strands back into place, like a snake charmer uses his flute? Next option if that fails, get a sports coach in motivate the hair back into place, complete with a set of cheerleaders or the last ditch effort to wheel in a Sargent shouting major if the rebellious hair still stubbornly refuses the softly softly approach. Your 'don't touch me-uptight mindset' would be seen & raised with 'don't shoot you'. When shooting a model in a corset which she requires lacing up at the back, what shall I say, no, no touching, gonna use my jedi skills to lace you up instead?
Photographer
Daeda1us
Posts: 1067
Little Rock, Arkansas, US
Jaguar Photos wrote: Why do people make this an issue,if a model doesn't want touched(male or female) then don't touch them.It's a pretty simple request,not shooting them because they request that is foolish.The society we live in now is unsafe and sometimes out right dangerous. So, if you have the absolutely perfect shot set. Pose perfect, lighting, etc... and there is one thing out of place, something the model cant get to without moving and changing the perfection you have framed... What do you do? Take the shot and fix it in post?
Artist/Painter
Rusty pencil
Posts: 26
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Luke Lenz wrote: If the model, as you believe, sees the photographer as a stranger and the photographer likewise, just how well those images come out, distant-cold-unconnected. During a shoot I take responsibility for the model, strangers I pass on the street, I don't . Well said, indeed
Photographer
Dan Epstein
Posts: 70
Montclair, New Jersey, US
I spent years shooting fashion in NYC. NEVER had to touch a model. Never. I can't believe that the big agencies would send a model to a shoot with someone who was "touchy". That said, the stylists often had their hands all over the talent fixing the merch, etc. If you can't explain what you want, either you really don't know...or the talent really isn't. But between two working professionals? I'm sorry. This sounds silly.
Photographer
Luke Lenz
Posts: 701
Berlin, Berlin, Germany
Dan Epstein wrote: I spent years shooting fashion in NYC. NEVER had to touch a model. Never. I can't believe that the big agencies would send a model to a shoot with someone who was "touchy". That said, the stylists often had their hands all over the talent fixing the merch, etc. If you can't explain what you want, either you really don't know...or the talent really isn't. But between two working professionals? I'm sorry. This sounds silly. So someone who adjusts a few strands of hair from a face so not to disrupt a perfect pose is touchy? That's some right frigid-fashion talk. Read the thread, without touching the mouse/keyboards or it will be deemed a 'touchy' thread. You just sounded silly billy.
Artist/Painter
Rusty pencil
Posts: 26
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Adjusting is not being touchy That's what baffles me is that is there is all this assumption that any adjusting is touchy. There are many proffesional fields that touch that are not groping but unfortunatly we know not all proffesionals or armatures behave. Yes there are creeps out there and having our own rules to protect ourselves is a good thing but saying that all touching is touchy is only creating more anxiety. Do what's right for you but don't assume that all artists are out to cop a feel.
Photographer
Art of the nude
Posts: 12067
Grand Rapids, Michigan, US
Dan Epstein wrote: I spent years shooting fashion in NYC. NEVER had to touch a model. Never. I can't believe that the big agencies would send a model to a shoot with someone who was "touchy". That said, the stylists often had their hands all over the talent fixing the merch, etc. If you can't explain what you want, either you really don't know...or the talent really isn't. But between two working professionals? I'm sorry. This sounds silly. I've heard loads of stories of "big agencies" sending models to photographers and others who are "touchy" and not during the shoot, but in private at other times. Hard to believe you were in that world for "years" without at least being aware of such things.
Photographer
Luke Lenz
Posts: 701
Berlin, Berlin, Germany
Art of the nude wrote: I've heard loads of stories of "big agencies" sending models to photographers and others who are "touchy" and not during the shoot, but in private at other times. Hard to believe you were in that world for "years" without at least being aware of such things. Very well said. There was an expose documentary on this some 10+ years back, which was absolutely shocking!! The stress and angst of the parents of these young models must have been unimaginable.
Model
Lyds A
Posts: 1
New York, New York, US
I understand that a small amount of touching can be tolerated/necessary on a small budget shoot, or one on one shoot due to the nature of the setup. It is fine to be touched by hair, makeup and wardrobe personnel, as it is their job. When the shooter makes adjustments, they should ask at least the first time. I understand the origin of this thread because I recently did a shoot with a photographer who felt "stroking the curves" was acceptable behavior, and on a site like this there are probably hundreds of amateurs who try an pull the same crap. All in all to be a model and put yourself in these situations you must be willing to speak up if something is making you uncomfortable or you precieve something to be out of line. There is also something to be said for the way you present your concern, saying something vs. storming off set.
Photographer
udor
Posts: 25255
New York, New York, US
Shiva Photo wrote: " I will not tolerate HANDS ON PHOTOGRAPHERS " This appears in a recent model portfolio [,,,] Models who are absolutely " touch me not" must think twice about a serious career in modeling. Photographers and Models opinions are welcome. A touchy subject no doubt. My opinion is that either the models understand what (commercial/professional) modeling is about, or they should drop out of the business. In my experience, this attitude is more an amateur model's attitude... in that case, you have to be more patient and understanding... but also behave accordingly. Heck, when I am shooting... I also often simply announce what I will do to the model, e.g. "Can I move the hair out of the way..." , or "Your earrings are twisted, can I just move them..." However, that is completely different when at a professional shoot with a whole crew... but then again... those models know that 10 people adjust them all at the same time... Difference between a pro and an amateur. If you work with amateur models, you may encounter this
Photographer
Dark Shadows
Posts: 2269
Miami, Florida, US
Art of the nude wrote: I've heard loads of stories of "big agencies" sending models to photographers and others who are "touchy" and not during the shoot, but in private at other times. Hard to believe you were in that world for "years" without at least being aware of such things. Agreed. First of all, these 'big agencies' often have bookers or owners involved in relationships with models. Secondly, they would not bat an eyelash at a model sleeping with a well known photographer. I think they would actually encourage her to do it.
Photographer
udor
Posts: 25255
New York, New York, US
Dark Shadows wrote: Agreed. First of all, these 'big agencies' often have bookers or owners involved in relationships with models. Secondly, they would not bat an eyelash at a model sleeping with a well known photographer. I think they would actually encourage her to do it. Not sure about encouragement... But the fact is... more relationships are getting started at the work place than any other place (not sure about the online dating circuit tho). If you work only in this industry... naturally you will hook up/date or whatever with some of the attractive or interesting or talented or all of the above people people around you as well. Here is the amateur photographer's equivalent to the OP... Usually photographers who do not shooting full time (but may produce high quality/professional level imagery!) may get upset when photographers and models date each other. But... the people who are part of the fashion/commercial industry, they don't even bother talking about it or getting upset about it... because it's childish. HOWEVER, there are bad apples everywhere... and forcing someone into doing something they do not want to do out of their own free will, is bad no matter how you look at it.
Photographer
Larry Quick
Posts: 117
Lake Worth, Florida, US
I always ask before touching and I never touch a private part anyway, that way you don't have any problems.
Photographer
udor
Posts: 25255
New York, New York, US
Larry Quick wrote: I always ask before touching and I never touch a private part anyway, that way you don't have any problems. The following situation happened a few years ago to a model who I worked with, actually it happened to her friend and she told me about it, when I was a moderator here: An "art" photographer was taking a shot of her vulva... and because he was going for the "poking look", he massaged her clitoris, to make it stick out more. The model (naive) let it happen, because she thought that this was normal (amateur nude model). This is absolutely true... it happened... and every time I see a new model complain about being "touched" on the shoulder or so... I have to remember the "poking look" story. Another photographer who was shooting for some major magazine, living in Long Island NY, was applying baby oil to the model's (unbelievable perfectly, tight) buttocks... after offering her some weed. Bear in mind... she was there for a headshot... That guy had a predatorial reputation and still shoots... and because he is so affluental, he's getting away with it... some models tho do have no problem with that... It's just interesting to see what's going on behind the moderator-curtains...
Model
Taga Pixie
Posts: 77
Alfred, Maine, US
It will be faster and easier for a photographer to hands on adjust me them trying to explain with me how to do what he wants. Saves time that way we can get more shots. Right?
Photographer
MichaelClements
Posts: 1739
Adelaide, South Australia, Australia
I always precede with a 'do you mind if....' I can't imagine not being able to touch the model, I mean how fucking ridiculous, if I want to move the collar of a garment how the hell can I expect the model to make the adjustment to my liking, directing can be hard enough but mind reading... Give me a break!
Photographer
LMG Images
Posts: 692
Nashville, Tennessee, US
I don't usually touch models. Sometimes, newer models will need help with hair or makeup and I step in. I also don't mind helping out with wardrobe. Often times, it is hard for a model to see what the camera will see.
Photographer
JeanDphoto
Posts: 1346
Knowlton, Quebec, Canada
No trust = no good shots Unless being very lucky !
Photographer
Varton
Posts: 2758
New York, New York, US
This thread can go forever and I really skipped the first 8-9 pages as I don’t have the patience. All I can say is that some female models are too much concerned about nudity to begin with so never mind even touching them. If I had to touch a model for any reason I do it as a last resort and all my models know I am more motivated with the best outcome of the shoot then molesting them. The problem is often trust as it was already mentioned. It is also the fact that there are some bad apples in any profession and people just get carried away. Usually there is no need to touch a model unless she is shooting something like for instance bondage and she is tied up and can not adjust herself, her hair or posture in which case she needs to be helped. Also there is no way to rig and tie or shibari the model without touching her. Know your photographer, ask references to others. If you are anxious don’t even start shooting.
Model
P I X I E
Posts: 35440
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
varton wrote: This thread can go forever and I really skipped the first 8-9 pages as I don’t have the patience. All I can say is that some female models are too much concerned about nudity to begin with so never mind even touching them. If I had to touch a model for any reason I do it as a last resort and all my models know I am more motivated with the best outcome of the shoot then molesting them. The problem is often trust as it was already mentioned. It is also the fact that there are some bad apples in any profession and people just get carried away. Usually there is no need to touch a model unless she is shooting something like for instance bondage and she is tied up and can not adjust herself, her hair or posture in which case she needs to be helped. Also there is no way to rig and tie or shibari the model without touching her. Know your photographer, ask references to others. If you are anxious don’t even start shooting. Voila.
Photographer
American Glamour
Posts: 38813
Detroit, Michigan, US
udor wrote: The following situation happened a few years ago to a model who I worked with, actually it happened to her friend and she told me about it, when I was a moderator here: An "art" photographer was taking a shot of her vulva... and because he was going for the "poking look", he massaged her clitoris, to make it stick out more. The model (naive) let it happen, because she thought that this was normal (amateur nude model). This is absolutely true... it happened... and every time I see a new model complain about being "touched" on the shoulder or so... I have to remember the "poking look" story. Another photographer who was shooting for some major magazine, living in Long Island NY, was applying baby oil to the model's (unbelievable perfectly, tight) buttocks... after offering her some weed. Bear in mind... she was there for a headshot... That guy had a predatorial reputation and still shoots... and because he is so affluental, he's getting away with it... some models tho do have no problem with that... It's just interesting to see what's going on behind the moderator-curtains... I am so glad Udor is back. I responded to this thread a long time ago, but I will add something here ... Most of the time there is no need to touch a model ... Sometimes it is inappropriate, and generally weird ... It is always better to have an assistant do if it is needed ... But if you must, do it only for the right reason and be respectufl.
Photographer
Ken Marcus Studios
Posts: 9421
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Doing bondage photography is rather difficult if you can't touch the model . . . . . . just sayin'
Photographer
American Glamour
Posts: 38813
Detroit, Michigan, US
Ken Marcus Studios wrote: Doing bondage photography is rather difficult if you can't touch the model . . . . . . just sayin' Somebody else already said that
Photographer
Doug Lester
Posts: 10591
Atlanta, Georgia, US
Art of the nude wrote: I've heard loads of stories of "big agencies" sending models to photographers and others who are "touchy" and not during the shoot, but in private at other times. Hard to believe you were in that world for "years" without at least being aware of such things. Years ago I met a formermodel.She had been working through a major NY agency. A well established photographr in NY called lunch for the crew, then asked her to stick around for one or two more quick shots. When the crew left, he grabed her breast and tried to pull her to him. She kneed him in the groin and ran out of the studio. After leaving she called her booker and reported what happened. She told me the booker was silent for a moment, then asked, "You mean you left in the middle of the shoot?". She was dropped from the agency that day. When I met her she was in Savannah.GA, applying for a job at a hotel. Don't depend on an agency to do anything other than book shoots.
Photographer
Varton
Posts: 2758
New York, New York, US
Doug Lester wrote: Years ago I met a formermodel.She had been working through a major NY agency. A well established photographr in NY called lunch for the crew, then asked her to stick around for one or two more quick shots. When the crew left, he grabed her breast and tried to pull her to him. She kneed him in the groin and ran out of the studio. After leaving she called her booker and reported what happened. She told me the booker was silent for a moment, then asked, "You mean you left in the middle of the shoot?". She was dropped from the agency that day. When I met her she was in Savannah.GA, applying for a job at a hotel. Don't depend on an agency to do anything other than book shoots. she should file sexual assault charges instead of calling that numb nut on the phone
Photographer
AJ_In_Atlanta
Posts: 13053
Atlanta, Georgia, US
Holy sh** this thing is still going on... Let it go people, models get touched and manhandled all the time at runway shows - get used to it. Photographers should not however be the ones doing it. How hard is this to understand.
Photographer
Paul Bryson Photography
Posts: 48041
Hollywood, Florida, US
Shiva Photo wrote: " I will not tolerate HANDS ON PHOTOGRAPHERS " This appears in a recent model portfolio Maybe I should put "I will not tolerate HANDS OFF MODELS* in my profile.
Photographer
RedIonStudio
Posts: 367
SHERMAN OAKS, California, US
There are a lot of models that just cannot pose!!! They need directions and adjustments, physical ones! I have never came across a model that said "no" when I asked if I can move her hand, hair, dress part and so on. I try REALLY hard not to adjust bra and related items. I will stop, ask her to do so even if she has to find that pose again. However, I have had models MANY times ask me to do it since they cannot reach it and so on! Be adults and be PROFESSIONAL!!! Even those that say "do not touch" will work very nicely with you!
Photographer
Julian W I L D E
Posts: 1831
Portland, Oregon, US
Any professional model who prints that... is turning off a LOT of people. Knowingly or unknowingly. ;-)
Photographer
C Johnsen Photographer
Posts: 291
Portland, Oregon, US
If you cannot stop and say out loud your intentions to …”touch you on your elbows to move you a bit to the left or right”… if you cannot stop and speak like a human being. You are not being professional enough to be in the same room with some one who doesn’t know you…..and is professionally trusting you.
Photographer
Robert Lynch
Posts: 2550
Bowie, Maryland, US
Ken Marcus Studios wrote: Doing bondage photography is rather difficult if you can't touch the model . . . . . . just sayin' ei Total Productions wrote: Somebody else already said that It wasn't somebody else... https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … st16106504
Model
MissSybarite
Posts: 11863
Los Angeles, California, US
It goes beyond into interactive performance art http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/ne … ?track=rss wherein the possibility of being touched by a MOCA Gala 2011 patron became an issue if auditioner was to become one of the gazing spinning heads, which I'm doing this evening as part of Marina Abromavic's piece for MOCA Gala 2011
Photographer
Sacred Vessel
Posts: 14
Petaluma, California, US
In my work I use intense shadow. I will ask the model ahead of time if I can adjust a hand or put one finger on a shoulder to make subtle adjustments. Even 1/4" can make a new photograph. Then if we reach the point where I think there needs to be an adjustment I ask again, and then if OK I always say "I am putting my finger here on your left shoulder etc. I am concentrating on a shadow I want to change.
Model
Jessie Shannon
Posts: 2004
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
In many cases an MUA or stylist will be "touching" you throughout a shoot, if they are not part of the shoot (which they should be) a photographer will move things into the right place. It should be accepted as these people know what they are doing and the shot should be as perfect as possible in camera. Its really, really not a big deal and should be expected. There is a huge difference between touching and being touchy.
Model
Svetlana Muerte
Posts: 928
Austin, Texas, US
I guess my yoga teachers have all been perverts then. Because they touch me to get my alignment correct when I'm not getting the verbal instruction. Oh, I can imagine some pervy touching out there. But sometimes, even with all my body awareness, I need my hip pushed further left and my arm placed at a certain angle that I wasn't getting via verbal instruction.
Photographer
Dave Watkins
Posts: 5
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US
I like to feature models wearing leg flattering outfits.I have many poses in mind to showcase a models legs.I've been told by many models and photogs as well that I am pretty talented in this endeavor.One model told me" I always thought I had so so legs but you made them look amazing".Well the models I work with are generally newbies and have no idea how to pose.To tell a model to put your legs like this,or move the left leg to the right and they move their right leg to the left.It could take 15 minutes to get one pose set up.One girl I remember saying"put 'em however you want"! lol So I ALWAYS ask if I may position the models legs to acheive the look I'm going for.I have always been given permission.And most appreciate this and other mentoring I give them.To protect myself,I have a provision in my model release stating this permission must be given up front before the shoot starts.
Photographer
Dave Watkins
Posts: 5
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US
I like to feature models wearing leg flattering outfits.I have many poses in mind to showcase a models legs.I've been told by many models and photogs as well that I am pretty talented in this endeavor.One model told me" I always thought I had so so legs but you made them look amazing".Well the models I work with are generally newbies and have no idea how to pose.To tell a model to put your legs like this,or move the left leg to the right and they move their right leg to the left.It could take 15 minutes to get one pose set up.One girl I remember saying"put 'em however you want"! lol So I ALWAYS ask if I may position the models legs to acheive the look I'm going for.I have always been given permission.And most appreciate this and other mentoring I give them.To protect myself,I have a provision in my model release stating this permission must be given up front before the shoot starts.
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