Ivanafox wrote:
I had a daughter that as a toddler would always run off. When she did this in car parks she got a big smack because she was nearly killed a few times. She quickly learnt that if she ran off in a car park it would hurt. The smack hurts less than getting squashed by a car so to me any emotional trauma I may have caused her by the smack far outweighs the emotional trauma to me, her father, her siblings, her grandparents and the driver if she had been run over. (people drive way too fast in carparks here in Oz, very scary)
So yes, I did sometimes smack my kids. As a mother who has first hand and immediate knowledge of her children and the situation I made the best judgement call I had available to me, N0-one is going to guilt me for doing it.

Very well reasoned! There's that pesky real world experience again......

Naughty Ties wrote:

Oh for christ's sake, someone else who thinks they need the help of books and articles on how to raise/discipline kids. Pretty amazing on how well kids behaved 10 or 20 years ago without all the phony "help" books out there that some parents seem to need.

I raised two kids who had their asses tanned a few times and I can tell you it was NOT abuse, it was metered punishment that let them know that the behavior they were exhibiting was wrong. Did it work? You bet!

Trust me...you get a room full of kids together and I guarantee you that I can pick out the kids who get bribed to behave or get those idiotic time outs as opposed to the ones that get a spanking now and then. Like night and day. And that comes from raising my two children who are now grown and being around my five grandchildren for the last 6 years.

They write those books to make money!!

Mac is Live wrote:

They won't be from respectable educated professionals.

Who write those books to make money!!

Jerry Nemeth wrote:

They write those books to make money!!

Of course...and many don't even HAVE kids.

Jerry Nemeth wrote:

Who write those books to make money!!

Which doesn't discount anything.
Lots of people write books to make money, but are still correct.
Just because someone is an author that does not automatically make them a liar.
That's a weak argument.

Good Egg Productions wrote:

Here's the problem with studies.  When you design a sociological or psychological test, you begin with looking for a correlation.  Well, guess what.  Chances are, you'll find it.  Hell, even scientific studies that don't involve human behavior can be looked at two different ways to give two VERY different results.

Example:  Red wine contains heathful antioxidants that the body benefits from.
Or: Red wine contains alcohol which is a poison to the body and causes liver damage.

If you're publishing a paper, your research and results will support your hypothesis.

True!!

Isabel Allende wrote:

Which doesn't discount anything.
Lots of people write books to make money, but are still correct.
Just because someone is an author that does not automatically make them a liar.
That's a weak argument.

No, it doesn't make them a liar but you have to admit that if someone is writing a book on the evils of spanking they're going to skew their findings toward that conclusion.

Isabel Allende wrote:
Most?
You have as little to back that up as the OP does to back up his claims.
My personal experience would disagree with your statement, but personal experience isn't something I can make an objective argument from that would persuade someone else, no one can make a true objective argument from personal experience or even a few soft science studies.

Which is why the whole argument on who is right and who is wrong when it comes to this is just silly. The majority of all anyone is going on in here is opinion and personal experience and neither side cares to change their mind. Am I the only one who realizes the futility?

I have more personal experience than you.  I have raised a daughter and am helping to raise my granddaughter.  I haven't come across a kid as bad as you were.  You are an aberration.   

Naughty Ties wrote:

No, it doesn't make them a liar but you have to admit that if someone is writing a book on the evils of spanking they're going to skew their findings toward that conclusion.

If they didn't believe such things in the first place then they wouldn't write the book about it, they'd write it about the greatness of spanking.

Many people who write books are not people who have conducted studies themselves,  instead they are quoting already finished studies done by other scientists/psychiatrists while giving their personal opinions.

Jerry Nemeth wrote:
I have more personal experience than you.  I have raised a daughter and am helping to raise my granddaughter.  I haven't come across a kid as bad as you were.  You are an aberration.   

I helped raise my little brother and baby-sit constantly.
You know little about my personal experience, it's silly to assume about it.

Anecdotal evidence does not a good argument make. The faulty logic in here is astounding, all because everyone wants to be proved right about something that there is little proof for either way so then they must always go back to their "Well, it worked for me" argument than can be tossed away easily with someone else saying "Well, the opposite worked for me" and then both arguments are pretty much useless when it comes to knowing anything at all objectively or factually.

You do realize you are being just as biased and close-minded in your opinion and why you have it as the OP? The only difference is the OP has a wee bit more to back it up than you have provided, as in, the support of the APA, a respected scientific association, that cautions against spanking as a disciplinary measure.

Erlinda wrote:
OMFG....... Really? This shit again? Fucking hell, ask yourselves this. How many of those educated professionals who do these studies actually have kids?

How many people who do studies on cancer have had cancer? You don't have to have the personal experience of being ill with cancer to study it effectively. Same thing goes for parenting techniques.

Again, another really weak argument on why these studies are/might be wrong.
I've only seen about two decent ones so far.

If you are going to have an opinion and voice it as if it is fact, at least don't go throwing out things that just sound silly. Otherwise just stick to voicing your opinion as a mere opinion that is based on scientifically unreliable personal experience, which is totally fine and we all do it, just be honest about it.

Isabel Allende wrote:
How many people who do studies on cancer have had cancer?

Again, another really weak argument on why these studies are/might be wrong.
I've only seen about two decent ones so far.

If you are going to have an opinion and voice it as if it is fact, at least don't go throwing out things that just sound silly. Otherwise, just stick to voicing your opinion as a mere opinion that is based on scientifically unreliable personal experience, which is totally fine, just be honest though.

What? Studying cancer is completely different then studying a child. I am even shocked you are comparing them two together.

Cancer is not a fucking person. Wtf you smoking?

Edit: You are just like Gianantonio. I asked some valid questions about these studies you guys keep referring to but no one seems to be able to answer them. Shocking

Erlinda wrote:
What? Studying cancer is completely different then studying a child. I am even shocked you are comparing them two together.

Cancer is not a fucking person. Wtf you smoking?

*headdesk*

Okay, how about studying the mentally ill?
Must you have had a brother who was mentally ill to be able to study the mentally ill? Or must you have had a child with autism to be able to study how children with autism develop?

Are those better examples for you?

Plus, it's just plain silly to assume that the people who are the heads of these studies don't have children because their findings show that spanking may be harmful.

Isabel Allende wrote:

I helped raise my little brother.
You know little about my personal experience, it's silly to assume about it.

Anecdotal evidence does not a good argument make. The faulty logic in here is astounding, all because everyone wants to be proved right about something that there is little proof for either way so then they must always go back to their "Well, it worked for me" argument than can be tossed away easily with someone else saying "Well, the opposite worked for me" and then both arguments are pretty much useless when it comes to knowing anything at all objectively or factually.

You do realize you are being just as biased and close-minded in your opinion and why you have it as the OP? The only difference is the OP has a wee bit more to back it up than you have provided, as in, the support of the APA that cautions against spanking as a disciplinary measure.

I have an awful lot of personal and life experience to back me up as do many in this thread.  We grew up just fine with discipline and laugh about it today.
The OP started this thread to enjoy himself.  You are being trolled and don't realize it!
Have fun when you have kids.   

John Jebbia wrote:
I think that those of you who believe spanking is wrong should do the world a favor - Turn your teeth backwards and chew out your throat.

Veyr nice surrealist vision for such.

The world - and children themselves - is/are in FAR more danger from idiots who think a smack in proprotion and administered with cool head is abusive. The prospect of the state taking a child from its parents because some snitch has grassed them to social services for a smack (when otherwise the realtionship is a loving one) is an absolute abhorrence and very REAl child abuse.

Has everyone forgotten so quickly the crap from some child psychologists about satanic abuse revealed through hypnosis already?

Erlinda wrote:
What? Studying cancer is completely different then studying a child. I am even shocked you are comparing them two together.

Cancer is not a fucking person. Wtf you smoking?

Exactly.

I am not going to comment on any books at all, because they are merely guides--not a plan of treatment.

Every family is unique, and how that family handles it's "issues" is probably just as unique. I have seen children who have parents that spank and I have seen children who have parents that do not. I have also seen children that have been abused.

Isabel Allende wrote:

If they didn't believe such things in the first place then they wouldn't write the book about it, they'd write it about the greatness of spanking.

Many people who write books are not people who have conducted studies themselves,  instead they are quoting already finished studies done by other scientists/psychiatrists while giving their personal opinions.

You are using words like "believe" and "personal opinions" and that carries zero weight on this subject. I believe in the big bang vs creationism but that's just my belief and without solid proof I'm neither right or wrong...it's just my opinion. In the case of spanking vs non spanking the proof is right there before your eyes from the several real world experience posts from parents like myself.

Is it a catch all for everyone? Of course not but you can't argue with results.

Jerry Nemeth wrote:

I have an awful lot of personal and life experience to back me up as do many in this thread.  We grew up just fine with discipline and laugh about it today.
The OP started this thread to enjoy himself.  You are being trolled and don't realize it!
Have fun when you have kids.   

The thing is, personal experience only backs you up to yourself. It's not objective evidence that has been collected in a controlled scientific setting.
It doesn't prove a thing to anyone else, so presenting it as if it will convince someone else is a fruitless effort.

Eliza C wrote:
Has everyone forgotten so quickly the crap from some child psychologists about satanic abuse revealed through hypnosis already?

I'm sorry...what?

Eliza C wrote:
Veyr nice surrealist vision for such.

The world - and children themselves - is/are in FAR more danger from idiots who think a smack in proprotion and administered with cool head is abusive. The prospect of the state taking a child from its parents because some snitch has grassed them to social services for a smack (when otherwise the realtionship is a loving one) is an absolute abhorrence and very REAl child abuse.

Has everyone forgotten so quickly the crap from some child psychologists about satanic abuse revealed through hypnosis already?

This is a very good point Eliza!  I remember this.

Naughty Ties wrote:

You are using words like "believe" and "personal opinions" and that carries zero weight on this subject. I believe in the big bang vs creationism but that's just my belief and without solid proof I'm neither right or wrong...it's just my opinion. In the case of spanking vs non spanking the proof is right there before your eyes from the several real world experience posts from parents like myself.

Is it a catch all for everyone? Of course not but you can't argue with results.

Any number of these people could be lying or be being biased. They could all believe they were better parents than they really were and it's doubtful that they'd come out and give details of all the bad things their kids did, even though they were spanked.

Personal experience is not evidence. It's not scientific proof.
How difficult is that to understand.
Until there is more scientific proof either way, no one can objectively claim that one side is right and the other is wrong.

Isabel Allende wrote:

*headdesk*

Okay, how about studying the mentally ill?
Must you have had a brother who was mentally ill to be able to study the mentally ill? Or must you have had a child with autism to be able to study how children with autism develop?

Are those better examples for you?

Plus, it's just plain silly to assume that the people who are the heads of these studies don't have children because their findings show that spanking may be harmful.

Those that have a friend/sibling/relative I believe would have a better idea when it comes to studying them yes. Because they have experience in how some of them behave etc.

I stick by my statement. Books can only teach you so much actual experience can make that knowledge expend more. And not be so close minded.

Isabel Allende wrote:
The thing is, personal experience only backs you up to yourself. It's not objective evidence that has been collected in a controlled scientific setting.

But, that is exactly the point. There is nothing truly scientific about the data regarding spanking. Sure, you can see the numbers, but you don't see the environment. There are far too many variables. Besides, how was the data collected? Are all parents going to be forthcoming when asked about spanking?

Erlinda wrote:
Edit: You are just like Gianantonio. I asked some valid questions about these studies you guys keep referring to but no one seems to be able to answer them. Shocking

I don't believe there are enough studies to claim either way that one is more wrong than the other. I do believe that there are a little more psychiatrists who are on the side of the non-spankers, than the spankers. I still don't think that is enough to claim either side right or wrong yet. There needs to be a lot more studies and such done until that can be said. I'm only pointing out that some people's made up reasons on why the findings of these studies must be incorrect are a little off.

If you read what all I've said, you'd know that.

My personal experience is that spanking doesn't always work and that other things work better. So, I'll be doing that. Yours is different, so you can do that. I really don't care if someone else chooses to spank, it doesn't bother me as it seems to bother the OP.

Erlinda wrote:

What? Studying cancer is completely different then studying a child. I am even shocked you are comparing them two together.

Cancer is not a fucking person. Wtf you smoking?

Edit: You are just like Gianantonio. I asked some valid questions about these studies you guys keep referring to but no one seems to be able to answer them. Shocking

Well for nine months a baby acts much like a tumor, living off it's host...

Isabel Allende wrote:

Any number of these people could be lying or be being biased. They could all believe they were better parents than they really were and it's doubtful that they'd come out and give details of all the bad things their kids did, even though they were spanked.

Personal experience is not evidence. It's not scientific proof.
How difficult is that to understand.
Until there is more scientific proof either way, no one can objectively claim that one side is right and the other is wrong.

Eliza just mentioned something above that questions scientific proof!!

Jerry Nemeth wrote:
Eliza just mentioned something above that questions scientific proof!!

Good for her.
It's still better when it comes to being objective than gathering a bunch of people's personal opinions and experiences and claiming it as truth. People can be quite biased when it comes to their own abilities and success as parents.

If there is no way that we can scientifically prove either way that spanking can be harmful, then there is no point in both sides trying to prove they are right and the other is wrong. It's just so silly because there's not enough proof yet either way and just because it worked for you does not mean that you are right and spanking is the best way to discipline.

Personal experience is not evidence, it's just personal experience and those vary and are typically subjective because humans are biased to believe they are right in all they do.

Isabel Allende wrote:

I don't believe there are enough studies to claim either way that one is more wrong than the other. I do believe that there is a little more psychiatrists who on the side of the non-spankers, than the spankers. I still don't think that is enough to claim either side right or wrong yet. There needs to be a lot more studies and such done until that can be said. I'm only pointing out that some people's made up reasons on why the findings of these studies must be incorrect are a little off.

If you read what all I've said, you'd know that.

My personal experience is that spanking doesn't always work and that other things work better. So, I'll be doing that. Yours is different, so you can do that. I really don't care if someone else chooses to spank, it doesn't bother me as it seems to bother the OP.

So until those studies are done to all those different groups of children no party is right or wrong. Yet here you and Gianantonio are alright condemning parents for spanking their kids. These people didn't have their kids studied. They studied their own kids by seeing how they react to things, Ho they behave towards stuff etc. they would know more about how to handle their kids then some "educated professionals" who have NEVER met their kid.

Erlinda wrote:

Those that have a friend/sibling/relative I believe would have a better idea when it comes to studying them yes. Because they have experience in how some of them behave etc.

You can also gain experience in how they behave in a medical/scientific setting.

Kevin Ian wrote:

Well for nine months a baby acts much like a tumor, living off it's host...

Well I've never heard of anyone trying to spank their baby while inside them

Erlinda wrote:
So until those studies are done to all those different groups of children no party is right or wrong. Yet here you and Gianantonio are alright condemning parents for spanking their kids. These people didn't have their kids studied. They studied their own kids by seeing how they react to things, Ho they behave towards stuff etc. they would know more about how to handle their kids then some "educated professionals" who have NEVER met their kid.

When did I condemn anyone?
You are beginning to imagine things.

Damon said what I find to work best didn't work on him.
I didn't jump down his throat and try to prove he was wrong. He knows more about himself than I do.

I also haven't called anyone a poor or abusive parent over choosing to spank.

Disagreeing and condemning are two very different things.

Isabel Allende wrote:

You can also gain experience in how they behave in a medical/scientific setting.

Not the same. A controlled environment is not the same as living every day life.

Erlinda wrote:

Well I've never heard of anyone trying to spank their baby while inside them

I saw a woman slap her pregnant belly while complaining about how much the kid kicks her.

Erlinda wrote:
Not the same. A controlled environment is not the same as living every day life.

And people will lie in every day life, especially when it comes to their kids and how good of parents they are.
A controlled environment study is not perfect, but it is more objective than anything else, which would make it better than anything else when it comes to proving anything.

Kevin Ian wrote:

I saw a woman slap her pregnant belly while complaining about how much the kid kicks her.

I'm not sure if I should laugh or be worried, lol.

Isabel Allende wrote:

Erlinda wrote:
So until those studies are done to all those different groups of children no party is right or wrong. Yet here you and Gianantonio are alright condemning parents for spanking their kids. These people didn't have their kids studied. They studied their own kids by seeing how they react to things, Ho they behave towards stuff etc. they would know more about how to handle their kids then some "educated professionals" who have NEVER met their kid.

When did I condemn anyone?
You are beginning to imagine things.

Damon said what I find to work best didn't work on him.
I didn't jump down his throat and try to prove he was wrong. He knows more about himself than I do.

I also haven't called anyone a poor or abusive parent over choosing to spank.

Disagreeing and condemning are two very different things.

I apologise I confused you with Mac is Live (both have somewhat colourful avis) teehee

Mac is Live wrote:

You aren't very adult with kids. Expecting them to do something without teaching them is wrong. It's the approach of a mentally ill person.

Spanking is hitting. You have admitted to abusing children. Are you aware of that? Smiling about it in your first post makes it even more worrisome.

Kevin Ian wrote:

I saw a woman slap her pregnant belly while complaining about how much the kid kicks her.

Wow