Isabel Allende wrote:

And people will lie in every day life, especially when it comes to their kids and how good of parents they are.
A controlled environment study is not perfect, but it is more objective than anything else, which would make it better than anything else when it comes to proving anything.

People lie to get what they want. That is human nature happens even when you are in a controlled environment.

Isabel Allende wrote:

I'm not sure if I should laugh or be worried, lol.

I had serious concerns for the child's future.

Erlinda wrote:
Wow

I wanted to find her mother and slap her for raising such a pig.
Still doesn't beat the woman I saw balancing a beer on her pregnant belly while she took a hit on her crack pipe.
I think a little smack on the butt ranks pretty low on the list of abuses dealt to children by those responsible for their life and well being.

**edit**
But I guess the OP and those sort can't read a pretty little book about that, since those stories usually end up in the newspaper instead.

Rachael Bueckert wrote:
I think a lot of adults need spankings, and not in the sexual way...

I don't think hitting kids or spanking their butts is right but that is just a personal opinion. I didn't read studies for that. I think it's fine to "spank"/"slap"/"tap" a kids hand when they do someone wrong, put them in their room and when it's time to come out talk to them about why that happened. That's how I've done it when I was nannying and worked fine for me. But that won't always work well for others.

Kevin Ian wrote:

Isabel Allende wrote:

Kevin Ian wrote:
I saw a woman slap her pregnant belly while complaining about how much the kid kicks her.

I'm not sure if I should laugh or be worried, lol.

I had serious concerns for the child's future.


I wanted to find her mother and slap her for raising such a pig.
Still doesn't beat the woman I saw balancing a beer on her pregnant belly while she took a hit on her crack pipe.
I think a little smack on the butt ranks pretty low on the list of abuses dealt to children by those responsible for their life and well being.

Where the fuck do you hang out? Geeeeeeez lol

Erlinda wrote:

Isabel Allende wrote:

Erlinda wrote:
So until those studies are done to all those different groups of children no party is right or wrong. Yet here you and Gianantonio are alright condemning parents for spanking their kids. These people didn't have their kids studied. They studied their own kids by seeing how they react to things, Ho they behave towards stuff etc. they would know more about how to handle their kids then some "educated professionals" who have NEVER met their kid.

When did I condemn anyone?
You are beginning to imagine things.

Damon said what I find to work best didn't work on him.
I didn't jump down his throat and try to prove he was wrong. He knows more about himself than I do.

I also haven't called anyone a poor or abusive parent over choosing to spank.

Disagreeing and condemning are two very different things.

I apologise I confused you with Mac is Live (both have somewhat colourful avis) teehee

Ah, yeah.
I think people should do whatever they believe works best for them.
For me, I think a kid can be just as disciplined and meet unfavorable consequences without spanking being involved.

I also believe that there is a toooon more to raising good kids than choosing to not spank or to spank.

Erlinda wrote:

Where the fuck do you hang out? Geeeeeeez lol

I've lived in some VERY undesirable areas in my past... it helps me keep things in perspective sometimes.

Erlinda wrote:
People lie to get what they want. That is human nature happens even when you are in a controlled environment.

But, not as fervently, since it doesn't involve the scientists own kids.
When things become personal, they become extremely subjective beyond what comes from scientific bias which is why the stories of "well, I spanked and my kid turned out to be fantastic" are incapable of changing the opinion of anyone else who also based their opinion on their own personal experience which might be the complete opposite, or they could just lie to suit their ego.

Which is why not a single person's opinion has been changed in this thread. So far, there's not enough scientific data to say either way and when people are left to personal experience and opinion they will stick to those beliefs with all their might.

Isabel Allende wrote:

Ah, yeah.
I think people should do whatever they believe works best for them.
For me, I think a kid can be just as disciplined and meet unfavorable consequences without spanking being involved.

I also believe that there is a toooon more to raising good kids than choosing to not spank or to spank.

Yeah, my mother was a hitter my father never. (he tapped my hand once when I tried to grab his cigarette but never again) I listened to him more then my mother because he explaned things to me and the tone of his voice would scare me a lot more then my mothers slaps or belt ahahahahaha

Erlinda wrote:

Yeah, my mother was a hitter my father never. (he tapped my hand once when I tried to grab his cigarette but never again) I listened to him more then my mother because he explaned things to me and the tone of his voice would scare me a lot more then my mothers slaps or belt ahahahahaha

For me that was talks with my grandpa.
He never raised a hand to me, but he'd sit me down and look at me long and hard and then say "I'm disappointed in you for (insert whatever bad thing I did)"

Oh, the cuts to the heart that one made, but I sure as hell never wanted to disappoint him again.

Isabel Allende wrote:

But, not as fervently, since it doesn't involve the scientists own kids.
When things become personal, they become extremely subjective beyond what comes from scientific bias which is why the stories of "well, I spanked and my kid turned out to be fantastic" are incapable of changing the opinion of anyone else who also based their opinion on their own personal experience which might be the complete opposite, or they could just lie to suit their ego.

Which is why not a single person's opinion has been changed in this thread.

Very true. But you can easily have a less controlled environment by just putting cameras in people's home and observing their interaction with their kids. That's a better way of studying different types of kids

Isabel Allende wrote:

For me that was talks with my grandpa.
He never raised a hand to me, but he'd sit me down and look at me long and hard and then say "I'm disappointed in you for (insert whatever bad thing I did)"

Oh, the cuts to the heart that one made, but I sure as hell never wanted to disappoint him again.

Ohhh man, the disappointed comment always kills yet. Got a few of those from my dad. I'm daddies princess lol

Erlinda wrote:
Very true. But you can easily have a less controlled environment by just putting cameras in people's home and observing their interaction with their kids. That's a better way of studying different types of kids

True, but it takes a rare person to agree to such an "invasion of privacy". Science is limited in what test subjects will allow them to be privy to.

Isabel Allende wrote:

True, but it takes a rare person to agree to such an "invasion of privacy". Science is limited in what test subjects will allow them to be privy to.

It's not rare. Just the right amount of money

Erlinda wrote:

It's not rare. Just the right amount of money

That's another problem with science, not nearly enough funding to do everything they'd like that would actually end up benefiting us all.

That's another topic entirely though.

Isabel Allende wrote:

Good for her.
It's still better when it comes to being objective than gathering a bunch of people's personal opinions and experiences and claiming it as truth. People can be quite biased when it comes to their own abilities and success as parents.

If there is no way that we can scientifically prove either way that spanking can be harmful, then there is no point in both sides trying to prove they are right and the other is wrong. It's just so silly because there's not enough proof yet either way and just because it worked for you does not mean that you are right and spanking is the best way to discipline.

Personal experience is not evidence, it's just personal experience and those vary and are typically subjective because humans are biased to believe they are right in all they do.

Shame on you!!  You are ridiculing our personal experience.  This is typical of people that are your age.  Then you go on to make the mistakes that we tried to warn you about.   

There is only one real scientist in this thread and it's not the OP.

Isabel Allende wrote:

And people will lie in every day life, especially when it comes to their kids and how good of parents they are.
A controlled environment study is not perfect, but it is more objective than anything else, which would make it better than anything else when it comes to proving anything.

So you are calling us liars.   Shame on you!!

Gianantonio wrote:
Okay then! 

Reason ≠ bribe, BTW...

ETA:  Your comment is actually kind of funny--in a sad kind of way...  You describe
Acting like a child how?

Wait...nevermind...I'm not playing this game.

You just did... 

But yeah--you aren't too good at it, so I'll let you slide.

Isabel Allende wrote:

For me that was talks with my grandpa.
He never raised a hand to me, but he'd sit me down and look at me long and hard and then say "I'm disappointed in you for (insert whatever bad thing I did)"

Oh, the cuts to the heart that one made, but I sure as hell never wanted to disappoint him again.

I'm disappointed in you too!

Eliza C wrote:

I thought I'd elaborate and make it sound more fun Sometimes its the parents at fault not the kid was my point.

I'm glad I didn't bother with the long version...

Jerry Nemeth wrote:
So you are calling us liars.   Shame on you!!

Quit trolling.
Do you have anything useful to contribute to the discussion or not?

Gianantonio wrote:

I'm glad I didn't bother with the long version...

At least she presents her research.

Isabel Allende wrote:
Quit trolling.
Do you have anything useful to contribute to the discussion or not?

I am answering what you said!

I have contributed useful points that you choose to disregard.

Jerry Nemeth wrote:
I am answering what you said!

No, you are accusing me of things I did not do (like ridicule everyone in the entire thread because that's obviously what people are doing when they speak in general terms *eye roll*)
Anyone that would get offended is probably offended because I'm right about parents lying about how good their children are. You also tried a sad attempt at being insulting by bringing age into things, which automatically proves I have no clue about anything (not).
That's trolling.

You aren't adding anything useful.

It'd be like me saying that you must be stubborn, close minded, and set in your ways because you are older.

What would that prove? Nothing. Other than that I'd be trolling.

The several one sentenced arguments you have made thus far I have found to be faulty, as one sentence arguments backed by subjective emotion because someone dares to disagree often are.

Isabel Allende wrote:

No, you are accusing me of things I did not do (like ridicule everyone in the entire thread because that's obviously what people are doing when they speak in general terms *eye roll*) and making a sad attempt at being insulting by bringing age into things. 
That's trolling.

You aren't adding anything useful.

It'd be like me saying that you must be stubborn, close minded, and set in your ways because you are older.

What would that prove? Nothing. Other than that I'd be trolling.

She's a smart cookie. And a red head. *drool*

Gianantonio wrote:
Of course you can reason with them.  But they do have less-developed brains.  In the midst of a melt-down, reasoning isn't going to be that effective.  But then, reasoning doesn't work too well even when an adult is in over-load mode (which is what a kid's meltdown is).

Legacys 7 wrote:
*Smiling.* Less developed brain doesn't equate to a lack of being manipulative etc. And parents in general don't act out in anger when they are spanking their children. You show me in all cases where parents in general do. I've seen it on both ends. The angry parent and the calm parent that explain why they're getting it. All is calm. The another fact, you have messed up kids from both whipped kids and non. You also have the opposite from both.

*eyerolling* Well, we are all manipulative.  As humans, we manipulate our environment--including those we interact with--most of the time.  Social interaction is manipulation.  Not "evil manipulation."  But persuasion, influence, negotiation, etc., those are all forms of manipulation.  So of course kids try to manipulate.  They are little, social humans.  They aren't as good at it as we are.  So they are a little (or a lot) more obvious about it.

I wish more parents would realize that learning the subtleties of manipulation is part of growing up.  It's important.  But so many parents get defensive--"My kid is just trying to manipulate me."  Yeah--no shit.  And you are trying to manipulate your kid.  And those who spank manipulate via physical punishment (nice lesson!).

BTW:  How do you know why, in general, parents spank their children? 

And, um, all is calm until the adult hits the little kid.  Then, for the kid, it's not so calm... 

Isabel Allende wrote:

No, you are accusing me of things I did not do (like ridicule everyone in the entire thread because that's obviously what people are doing when they speak in general terms *eye roll*) and making a sad attempt at being insulting by bringing age into things. 
That's trolling.

You aren't adding anything useful.

It'd be like me saying that you must be stubborn, close minded, and set in your ways because you are older.

What would that prove? Nothing. Other than that I'd be trolling.

One day you will find out that we know what we are talking about.

John Jebbia wrote:
Because an ass whoopin now is better than the ass reaming they get later in prison when they've failed to learn that consequences can hurt.

My guess is that most people in prison were spanked as children...

Jerry Nemeth wrote:
One day you will find out that we know what we are talking about.

Ageism is silly. Not all old people are wise and not all young people naive.

Plenty of people have raised fine children without spanking them. It is not always a necessary action in disciplining a child and there are other ways that have been deemed to be just as effective if not more.

j3_photo wrote:
Just look at todays kids for the most part- undisciplined brats.  There are good kids, but overall the attitude I've seen in kids/teens is horrendous. 

Discipline- via a spank or whatever means that doesn't injure is fine.  Stick 'em in martial arts.  Would be nice if more kids studied.

Do you have a lawn you can tell kids to get off of...? 

Isabel Allende wrote:

Ageism is silly. Not all old people are wise and not all young people naive.

Plenty of people have raised fine children without spanking.
Your point is moot.

Some kids don't need a spanking.  Everyone is different.
This is true that not all old people are wise but you are disregarding us all.

M A S T E R S wrote:
I own a retail store. I see children in my store almost every day. Some children are well behaved, and some are absolute brats who listen to nobody. In nearly every case when a child has been an out of control brat in my store, the parent(s) tries "reasoning with them" as a form of discipline. Never works! Neither does a "time out", or threatening to "not get ice cream".

Those are probably parents who spank their kids but don't want to do so in public because they know it's frowned upon these days.  So they don't really know how to do the non-spanking techniques. 

Jerry Nemeth wrote:
Some kids don't need a spanking.  Everyone is different.
This is true that not all old people are wise but you are disregarding us all.

Personal experience is not objective evidence that will prove a point.
So, when it comes to an objective argument that would actually change anyone's mind personal experience is pretty much useless. It doesn't prove who is wrong or right, it doesn't prove anything because it is subjective and all it can do is form subjective opinions, it can not claim anything as fact because of it and everyone will continue to go on believing what they do based on their own personal experience until enough objective evidence comes around, if it ever does. And even then some people will choose to close their ears and believe what they wish to and make up things to support that belief, like those who ignore evolution.

Jerry Nemeth wrote:

Kids disobey to push the limits as far as they can of what they can get away with!

Pushing the limits?  Yes--we all do this every day of our lives.  Why shouldn't kids?

Gianantonio wrote:
Pushing the limits?  Yes--we all do this every day of our lives.  Why shouldn't kids?

Kids do test boundaries.
But, that doesn't mean that spanking is the ONLY right option when it comes to punishing them when they do something wrong, no matter if it's out of boundary testing or not.

Good Egg Productions wrote:

Teaching a 3 year old to "STOP!!" when the parent says stop can be a life-saving command that must be followed without understanding the why.  If the child is in fear of being smacked because they did not obey the stop command, and learns very quickly to stop when told, it can and will save their lives.

Until the child has the capacity to understand the commands, they must fear the repercussion of not obeying.

Isabel Allende wrote:

Personal experience is not objective evidence that will prove a point.
So, when it comes to an objective argument that would actually change anyone's mind personal experience is pretty much useless. It doesn't prove who is wrong or right, it doesn't prove anything because it is subjective and all it can do is form subjective opinions, it can not claim anything as fact because of it.

When you add all these experiences together it does prove something.
As I said before there is only one scientist in this thread who has presented research.
This research counters the OP.

M A S T E R S wrote:

Not in any case that I have EVER witnessed.

Do you realize how narrow any one person's eyewitness observations are?

Gianantonio wrote:
If I was raising my kids in an ineffective way, I would be the first to want to know it.  I'm not sure why so many people get defensive over it.  I mean it's their kids--I thought most people want the best for their kids.  But I guess not...

Jerry Nemeth wrote:
Clever!  Trying to make us feel guilty.   

No--just being honest.  You only get one shot at raising your kids.  I'd rather do it as close to the best way as possible.

Jerry Nemeth wrote:
When you add all these experiences together it does prove something.
As I said before there is only one scientist in this thread who has presented research.
This research counters the OP.

It just proves that a lot of people spank. That's it.
Anyways,
American Academy of Pediatrics

http://www.aap.org/en-us/about-the-aap/ … lness.aspx

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/130/2/184

http://www.aap.org/en-us/about-the-aap/ … Later.aspx

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/c … 8.abstract

"Where We Stand: Spanking

The American Academy of Pediatrics strongly opposes striking a child for any reason. If a spanking is spontaneous, parents should later explain calmly why they did it, the specific behavior that provoked it, and how angry they felt. They also might apologize to their child for their loss of control. This usually helps the youngster to understand and accept the spanking, and it models for the child how to remediate a wrong."

http://www.healthychildren.org/English/ … nking.aspx

I still don't think there's enough to prove definitively that either side is right or wrong and it is something that parents must currently decide for themselves, but you wanted research so there it is. Although I'm not sure how many people on MM are actually able to adequately evaluate and understand scientific research and data. And of course there will be many who will cling onto the scientific studies that say that spanking is alright while not even giving a chance to the ones that don't because it suits their personal opinion to do so.

The OP does have some very big name scientific associations on his side of the argument though, for all it's worth.