GPS Studio Services wrote:



Thank you for the comments, etc.  I am thinking that we need to get back on track with the OP's original question.  Why don't we move back from your events to the general question that Caitlin asked?

Select Models wrote:
All 6 previous cruiseboat photoshoots were 'groupshoots', as well as the groupshoot coming up in November.   They asked questions... I provided answers.

That is true but Caitlin's original question was "what people thought about group shoots," not what people thought about "Gary's Group Shoots." 

I know they have asked you questions about your events (although you also seeded the field).  I am just trying to get the thread back on track to the OP's original question.

- Phil H - wrote:
GPS makes a valid point, I've noticed an increased propensity on your part recently, to avail yourself of any opportunity to (for want of a better word) "pimp" your events, in any thread, across the forums.

It's getting old and it needs to stop, the forums are for discussion, not for advertising (outside of those specifically intended for that).

If it doesn't stop, I'll have little option but to consider taking a more proactive stance in addressing the matter.

Thanks.

You're welcome.  For a point of clarification... when a thread poster quotes a statement I've made and requests an answer... am I not allowed to address their question without being labeled a pimp?  For that is indeed what has transpired on the previous page.

Select Models wrote:
You're welcome.  For a point of clarification... when a thread poster quotes a statement I've made and requests an answer... am I not allowed to address their question without being labeled a pimp?  For that is indeed what has transpired on the previous page.

Perhaps the point is that most users respond to questions with text, not spamming the forums with photos trying to promote their events.

What transpired didn't appear to be anyone asking you to post a photo, yet most people familiar with MM know that you rarely pass up what you see as an opportunity to post an event pic.

You're not alone in posting self-promoting photos when it isn't asked for, but my impression is that many people consider you to be the king of that behavior.

DougBPhoto wrote:
Perhaps the point is that most users respond to questions with text, not spamming the forums with photos trying to promote their events.

What transpired didn't appear to be anyone asking you to post a photo, yet most people familiar with MM know that you rarely never pass up what you see as an opportunity to post an event any pic.

You're not alone in posting self-promoting photos when it isn't asked for, but my impression is that many people consider you to be the king of that behavior.

Adjusted

DougBPhoto wrote:
Perhaps the point is that most users respond to questions with text, not spamming the forums with photos trying to promote their events.

What transpired didn't appear to be anyone asking you to post a photo, yet most people familiar with MM know that you rarely pass up what you see as an opportunity to post an event pic.

You're not alone in posting self-promoting photos when it isn't asked for, but my impression is that many people consider you to be the king of that behavior.

OK... a confession to make.  A good 30,000 of the posts I've made over the last 9 years here on MM have been messages left in the MM 'Events Forum'... were participants not only expect pics to be posted... they almost demand it.  When I don't post pics over there, they feel neglected and get alittle upset.  To them, a picture says 1000 words.  And for the record, the last 11 posts I've left on this thread have not included a photo.  I'll try to reverse that mindset in these other MM forums... unless of course photos are requested... my apologies.

Jerry Nemeth wrote:

I have no problem with him posting photos.

Thanks... wishin everyone else was in agreement...

Select Models wrote:

You're welcome.  For a point of clarification... when a thread poster quotes a statement I've made and requests an answer... am I not allowed to address their question without being labeled a pimp?  For that is indeed what has transpired on the previous page.

Perhaps try PM'ing them with a link/details of your event, instead of littering the thread with references to it or it's event thread. Particularly, when the thread was not about "your" event specifically.

Art Silva wrote:
I take group shoots to what they are at face value, a way to socialize and shoot a few snapshots of prospective models who may be interested in any future art nude work.

I have networked with some wonderful people and made a couple very good friends who have become great nude subjects for my art.

As far as the group shoots themselves, it was a way to dip my toes in the GWC glamour world and see what that world is like, it was amusing to say the least. The images I managed to get had my own twist to them but nothing I would continually post on my portfolio.

Agree 100%, I see this as an opportunity to network and meet some cool photographers and models I might want to work with later.  I don't think I've ever gotten any images at these things that I would consider to be good, much less portfolio worthy.

What I do appreciate are workshops that have some instructional value and are taught by photographers I admire, such as Lucien Clergue, Kim Weston, Craig Morey, etc.

Dekilah wrote:
I like group shoots like the DEAC. I feel like they require some organization and I would really only like those where I can choose who I schedule with and we are shooting one on one (not 5 photographers trying to shoot me at once). I do group shoots for my portfolio.

There is a social element, and I also think they can be great for beginners. Some models might feel more comfortable posing in a group setting the first few times. Group settings also tend to solve the issue of location, which is something I am currently dealing with trying to book with photographers here in Detroit. Lots of people want to shoot, but few of them have a safe, legal place to shoot, much less a studio.

They aren't for everyone, and not every group shoot is great, but the good ones can be really good for a lot of people.

I have exchanged messages with a photographer who has been there.  He likes it and has taken good photos.

I usually shoot in hotel rooms or on location.

Art Silva wrote:
Any newbies out their, be prepared to have other photographers jump in front of your lens when the model shows you a sexy look, be prepared to fork over extra cash for individual releases [which is BS IMO unless you plan on publishing the images for profit], plan on a lot of down time and not getting a rhythm going in a group (paparazzi) shoot out or even in a half hour 1on1.

We have repeatedly said that not all group shoots are like that. The Midwest style is one hour time slots, individually scheduled, and decidedly NOT cattle-call clusterfucks. There is also no payment for releases or anything else- all attendees pay a small amount which goes to insurance and venue rental.

I've done a number of group shoots where I booked an 8-hour day solid, although we usually recommend keeping an hour or two free for eating and socializing.

As for getting a rhythm going, I can get a lot done in an hour with a good model. And anyone who does any sort of portraiture knows that a half hour is plenty to get images of someone.

Its one thing to give your opinion, which is what the OP asked. Its another to deliberately spread lies and bullshit. That's why the forums here have become close to worthless.

Lumigraphics wrote:
Its one thing to give your opinion, which is what the OP asked. Its another to deliberately spread lies and bullshit. That's why the forums here have become close to worthless.

Oh horseshit. 3 models lurking in the forums wrote me about this thread. They are essentially new, and all 3 observed the same thing.

There is a common thread between folks who do, and folks who say no in this thread. That's out of the mouth of babes so.....

But by all means continue, the entertainment factor isn't too awfully bad.

Art Silva wrote:
Any newbies out their, be prepared to have other photographers jump in front of your lens when the model shows you a sexy look, be prepared to fork over extra cash for individual releases [which is BS IMO unless you plan on publishing the images for profit], plan on a lot of down time and not getting a rhythm going in a group (paparazzi) shoot out or even in a half hour 1on1.

Lumigraphics wrote:
We have repeatedly said that not all group shoots are like that. The Midwest style is one hour time slots, individually scheduled, and decidedly NOT cattle-call clusterfucks. There is also no payment for releases or anything else- all attendees pay a small amount which goes to insurance and venue rental.

I've done a number of group shoots where I booked an 8-hour day solid, although we usually recommend keeping an hour or two free for eating and socializing.

As for getting a rhythm going, I can get a lot done in an hour with a good model. And anyone who does any sort of portraiture knows that a half hour is plenty to get images of someone.

Its one thing to give your opinion, which is what the OP asked. Its another to deliberately spread lies and bullshit. That's why the forums here have become close to worthless.

In all fairness, that might just have been Art's personal experience, making it his reality. I don't really know though. I would be ok with holding some group shoots myself, if I could find the perfect formula, and make them something that was enjoyable and rewarding.

Art Silva wrote:
I take group shoots to what they are at face value, a way to socialize and shoot a few snapshots of prospective models who may be interested in any future art nude work.

I have networked with some wonderful people and made a couple very good friends who have become great nude subjects for my art.

As far as the group shoots themselves, it was a way to dip my toes in the GWC glamour world and see what that world is like, it was amusing to say the least. The images I managed to get had my own twist to them but nothing I would continually post on my portfolio.
They were/are fun for what they are but for me it is never a step forward for my art, just something of a departure from it.

I have been to a handful and most costly only because of the travel and event expenses I had to fork over which in turn made any images I got Not worth the costs, so I look a these events as something entertaining to do and something not to take seriously.

Any newbies out their, be prepared to have other photographers jump in front of your lens when the model shows you a sexy look, be prepared to fork over extra cash for individual releases [which is BS IMO unless you plan on publishing the images for profit], plan on a lot of down time and not getting a rhythm going in a group (paparazzi) shoot out or even in a half hour 1on1.

To answer the OPs question, group shoots are worth it for what it's actually worth, GWC practice, or spank-bank updating... Yes I said it, don't deny it you guys who go to these things.
Not worth it for conceptual creation and originality, unless you can find a model prospect to book privately at a later date.

I think this is more about the people attending, than the group shoot itself.

With group shoots in general (meaning not all),  I do agree that it's a more difficult vehicle for conceptual work (and originality, so not every photographer has the same exact look).

Cherrystone wrote:
Oh horseshit. 3 models lurking in the forums wrote me about this thread. They are essentially new, and all 3 observed the same thing.

There is a common thread between folks who do, and folks who say no in this thread. That's out of the mouth of babes so.....

But by all means continue, the entertainment factor isn't too awfully bad.

So the word of three new models is authoritative now? You've apparently run short of supporting evidence if that's the best you can do.

But by all means, carry on. Maybe you can find some new photographers to message you with their opinions as well

CHAD ALAN wrote:

Art Silva wrote:
Any newbies out their, be prepared to have other photographers jump in front of your lens when the model shows you a sexy look, be prepared to fork over extra cash for individual releases [which is BS IMO unless you plan on publishing the images for profit], plan on a lot of down time and not getting a rhythm going in a group (paparazzi) shoot out or even in a half hour 1on1.

In all fairness, that might just have been Art's personal experience, making it his reality. I don't really know though. I would be ok with holding some group shoots myself, if I could find the perfect formula, and make them something that was enjoyable and rewarding.

There are some people who know the perfect formula.  That is why I have been to one of them several times.

Eros Fine Art Photo wrote:
I shot this at the last group shoot I went to (and likely the last one I'll ever go to)...

Good Lord WTH is that mess? :-O

I've never even seen anything like that.

Eros Fine Art Photo wrote:
I shot this at the last group shoot I went to (and likely the last one I'll ever go to)...



There were at least 5 other photographers in the room.   Some were to my left and some were behind the guys in the front row.  Strobes were going off left and right, and every pop of a flash you'd hear someone say "Over here!".  There were 4 other models there as well.  Most had the same number of photographers surrounding them...unless they were wearing clothes or lingerie; then they only had like 2 or 3 shooting them.  And yes, every once in a while someone would stick their head in front of another photographer's lens, which led to occasional growls and mutterings. 

At one point, one of the photographers handed the model a piece of lingerie from his private collection.  Of course I'm thinking to myself, "What lingerie you gonna go with? Sexy nurse, or wait. No, no, no. Hold on. Slutty Nun."  The model puts on some gaudy red costume piece that won't work with my portfolio at all, so I throw up my hands and just wait for my 1-on-1 time with the model I was going to TF with.  In all, I probably took about 60 photos during the group portion.  And yes, some of them were good enough for the model's portfolio, but none of them benefited mine. 

I took that photo, because I found the whole scene to be ridiculous.  And that wasn't the first time I'd been to a group shoot either.  The others were exactly the same, even though they were hosted by different people.  Basically, it's anywhere from 25 to 60 photographers shooting anywhere from 2 to 8 models.  Regardless of the numbers, it seems to me the ratio of photographers to models is about 10 to 1. 

And let's face it...some of the models who claim they're going in the Events thread don't show up if they haven't pre-booked enough 1-on-1's to make it worth their while.  Other models will leave early as well, because the best looking models got all their time slots filled and they were left with the photographers who didn't bring a lot of money and want to negotiate a discounted rate with them.

So this is the reality of my experience with group shoots and why I'm of the opinion they're a waste of time and money for anyone who wants to get quality work.  The models might get lucky and get a good shot from a talented photographer (if he's willing to share the photo), but more than likely they'll just end up with amateur looking images with poor lighting, poor composition, and a huge copyright logo across the bottom.  Likewise, photographers looking to shoot something artistic or creative will likely only end up with styling and makeup that's clearly geared toward sexy glam that's similar to some of the images that have already been posted in this thread. 

Maybe things are different in other states, but from the work the I've seen posted in the Events forums, it doesn't look like that's the case...regardless of how much some people here protest.

I would never go to the one that you went to!

Jerry Nemeth wrote:
I would never go to the one that you went to!

Your obvious biased opinion,  along with your supportive evidence of success at group shoots does not mean that all group shoots will be sucessful.  Not everyone here is going to change their mind about their opinion because of your heavy promotion of an event in particular that you go to.  Doing group shoots is not for everyone!

This back and forth arguement is becoming as curcular as many of the hundreds of threads we've had on other subjective topics such as "escorts" "Nikon vs Canon" and rants about flakes.  I'm happy for you that the group shoot you attend is so awesome to you.  That does not mean it will be as awesome for me.  You are pushing this so hard, I wonder if you are getting some benefit from signing others up for it?

Lumigraphics wrote:
We have repeatedly said that not all group shoots are like that. The Midwest style is one hour time slots, individually scheduled, and decidedly NOT cattle-call clusterfucks. There is also no payment for releases or anything else- all attendees pay a small amount which goes to insurance and venue rental.

I've done a number of group shoots where I booked an 8-hour day solid, although we usually recommend keeping an hour or two free for eating and socializing.

As for getting a rhythm going, I can get a lot done in an hour with a good model. And anyone who does any sort of portraiture knows that a half hour is plenty to get images of someone.

Its one thing to give your opinion, which is what the OP asked. Its another to deliberately spread lies and bullshit. That's why the forums here have become close to worthless.

Really? you really want to go there? Lies and Bull Shit??? Come on you don't want to embarrass yourself like that.
I speak from personal experience and point of view from where I come from and my goals as a photographer.

You might want to keep your attacks and assumptions where they belong, in Detroit where apparently things are different than out here in So. Cal.

Lumigraphics wrote:
Good Lord WTH is that mess? :-O

I've never even seen anything like that.

Yeah, now do you see what I was talking about... so, do you maybe want to retract your insult to my experience and assumption of how group shoots work outside of your area?

Patrick Walberg wrote:
Your obvious biased opinion,  along with your supportive evidence of success at group shoots does not mean that all group shoots will be sucessful.  Not everyone here is going to change their mind about their opinion because of your heavy promotion of an event in particular that you go to.  Doing group shoots is not for everyone!

This back and forth arguement is becoming as curcular as many of the hundreds of threads we've had on other subjective topics such as "escorts" "Nikon vs Canon" and rants about flakes.  I'm happy for you that the group shoot you attend is so awesome to you.  That does not mean it will be as awesome for me.  You are pushing this so hard, I wonder if you are getting some benefit from signing others up for it?

My opinion is based on his photo!

I know that all groupshoots are not good.  That's why some people complain about them.  Obviously some people have not researched and selected good groupshoots.
Why can't I provide information about good groupshoots?  Are you trying to censor me?

I get no benefit at all.  This is a wild accusation!

Jerry Nemeth wrote:
My opinion is based on his photo!

I know that all groupshoots are not good.  That's why some people complain about them.  Obviously some people have not researched and selected good groupshoots.
Why can't I provide information about good groupshoots?  Are you trying to censor me?

I get no benefit at all.  This is a wild accusation!

Hold on a moment!  Jerry, I'm NOT trying to censor you, nor am I accusing you of anything!  Please excuse me for wondering if you got any benefit.  I can't help but wonder because it seems to me that you are not just passionately promoting group shoots but also arguing with those who don't share the same passionate experience as you have.  You say you don't have any stake in the group shoots you speak of.  I believe you then.

Certainly you can provide information about successful group shoots, and post images to back it up!  You've been doing it!  I'm sorry if those who have been saying negative things about group shoots are bothering you, but it is their experience, not yours.  It's their opinion, and the more you push that you go to a great, well organized group shoot in their faces, it will turn many of them off.

I'm trying to be as neutral as possible.  Really, I am!  I've participated in group shoots.  I've been a member of local photography clubs.  I've gone to seminars taught by other photographers.  I've even had partnership in a couple large photo studios in my day.  So I've been around the block many times.  It's my choice.

So I agree with you that there are certain group shoots which are great, successful events.  It's just not for everyone.  We all have different perspectives from our experiences.   Just as you and I can go to the same concert for example, and you have a great time while I didn't ... perhaps because of our location of seats?  Maybe I had higher expectations?  There could be a lot of reasons for our personal choices and differences regarding events such a group shoots. 


I like Chad's comment, and I think it is worth repeating. 

CHAD ALAN wrote:
In all fairness, that might just have been Art's personal experience, making it his reality. I don't really know though. I would be ok with holding some group shoots myself, if I could find the perfect formula, and make them something that was enjoyable and rewarding.

The "fairness" that he speaks of is more like respect of each others differing opinions.  I might go to the group shoot you are raving about ... and I might be as happy as you.  Or I might be disappointed.  Who knows, maybe I'll be more thrilled about it than you?  The point it that "it" is my experience to be had and my choice if I don't choose the same as others.  Please respect that.

Eros Fine Art Photo wrote:
I shot this at the last group shoot I went to (and likely the last one I'll ever go to)...

LMAO.....

Art Silva wrote:

Lumigraphics wrote:
We have repeatedly said that not all group shoots are like that. The Midwest style is one hour time slots, individually scheduled, and decidedly NOT cattle-call clusterfucks. There is also no payment for releases or anything else- all attendees pay a small amount which goes to insurance and venue rental.

I've done a number of group shoots where I booked an 8-hour day solid, although we usually recommend keeping an hour or two free for eating and socializing.

As for getting a rhythm going, I can get a lot done in an hour with a good model. And anyone who does any sort of portraiture knows that a half hour is plenty to get images of someone.

Its one thing to give your opinion, which is what the OP asked. Its another to deliberately spread lies and bullshit. That's why the forums here have become close to worthless.

Really? you really want to go there? Lies and Bull Shit??? Come on you don't want to embarrass yourself like that.
I speak from personal experience and point of view from where I come from and my goals as a photographer.

You might want to keep your attacks and assumptions where they belong, in Detroit where apparently things are different than out here in So. Cal.


Yeah, now do you see what I was talking about... so, do you maybe want to retract your insult to my experience and assumption of how group shoots work outside of your area?

The OP asked for opinions. I've said that there are potentially good and bad events.

You stated as a fact, some things that don't happen at every event. So, yes, I challenged that statement.

Apparently, according to some of you, there could never possibly be a good or worthwhile group shoot.

Jerry Nemeth wrote:
There are some people who know the perfect formula.  That is why I have been to one of them several times.

I dunno if I'd call where you go a group shoot per se.

It's basically structured to remove as much $$$ from the participants wallet as possible, though unlike many others at least you get a little bang for your buck.

Lumigraphics wrote:

The OP asked for opinions. I've said that there are potentially good and bad events.

You stated as a fact, some things that don't happen at every event. So, yes, I challenged that statement.

Apparently, according to some of you, there could never possibly be a good or worthwhile group shoot.

Dude....I've been to group shoots you've spoken of. Clusterfuck A+.

At least I had a good day yakking with Nad about historic architectural restoration. The only person I had some interest in shooting, had a 10' chain attached to the sluggo who dragged her along.

If you like them, so be it. But don't try to polish turds, they just won't shine up well.

Cherrystone wrote:

I dunno if I'd call where you go a group shoot per se.

It's basically structured to remove as much $$$ from the participants wallet as possible, though unlike many others at least you get a little bang for your buck.

I'm stepping out of this mess to get some popcorn. 

Glenn T Photo wrote:
I really enjoy the camaraderie amongst the other photographers I meet at group shoots. Almost my entire portfolio consists of images I shot at group shoots. I like the fact that group shoots allow me to try out shooting lots of different models at reasonable cost. I can then decide which models I want to shoot one-on-one at a later date.

I have photographed many models that I've met at a later time or date.

Glenn T Photo wrote:
I really enjoy the camaraderie amongst the other photographers I meet at group shoots. Almost my entire portfolio consists of images I shot at group shoots. I like the fact that group shoots allow me to try out shooting lots of different models at reasonable cost. I can then decide which models I want to shoot one-on-one at a later date.

Well said, and makes it clear why some people enjoy group shoots. Gets a start point, and a finish area. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Cherrystone wrote:

I dunno if I'd call where you go a group shoot per se.

It's basically structured to remove as much $$$ from the participants wallet as possible, though unlike many others at least you get a little bang for your buck.

You're assigning motive to something you've never attended. Please don't try to imply that you know what the fuck you are talking about. The structure has morphed to its present organization over time encompassing the wishes of the photographers and models who participate--not some money syphoning agenda.

In the interest of full disclosure, I present a workshop at the Shootout Jerry is referring to and Cherrystone has never attended. I have no financial interest in the event. I have chosen to participate in this event for several years, as my schedule allows, because of the friendly environment that I have seen over the 10+ years it has operated.

I have attended other events, given workshops for other organizers and even hosted a few workshops myself. I choose to participate based on the attitude of the event, the opportunity to shoot at a particular location and the availability of models. Similarly, there are other events I would not return to after attending them once or go to based on the experience and feedback of others.

Workshops, Shootouts and Group Shoots are not for everyone; nor is there an across-the-board standard for quality and value, but a blanket condemnation of all group shoots for all photographer just makes the person stating it look stupid (or biased with their own agenda).

Dan Howell wrote:

You're assigning motive to something you've never attended. Please don't try to imply that you know what the fuck you are talking about. The structure has morphed to its present organization over time encompassing the wishes of the photographers and models who participate--not some money syphoning agenda.

In the interest of full disclosure, I present a workshop at the Shootout Jerry is referring to and Cherrystone has never attended. I have no financial interest in the event. I have chosen to participate in this event for several years, as my schedule allows, because of the friendly environment that I have seen over the 10+ years it has operated.

I have attended other events, given workshops for other organizers and even hosted a few workshops myself. I choose to participate based on the attitude of the event, the opportunity to shoot at a particular location and the availability of models. Similarly, there are other events I would not return to after attending them once or go to based on the experience and feedback of others.

Workshops, Shootouts and Group Shoots are not for everyone; nor is there an across-the-board standard for quality and value, but a blanket condemnation of all group shoots for all photographer just makes the person stating it look stupid (or biased with their own agenda).

Thank's Dan!