This thread was locked on 2014-06-04 15:45:21
Model
Elizabeta Rosandic
Posts: 953
Santa Fe, New Mexico, US
What no one seems to have brought up here is that sexual harassment/assault has NOTHING to do with the level of clothing the victim is wearing, and everything to do with power. In the 4 years that I've been freelance modeling, I've been sexually assaulted twice on a shoot. Both times it had nothing to do with what I was wearing and everything to do with the fact that my assailants were sociopaths on a power trip. Passing things like that off with "well she deserved it for looking like a slut" is so demeaning, insulting, and ridiculous it's amazing that people one here are entertaining it as a legitimate idea. Furthermore, rape by coercion does actually happen, pretty often in fact. If I'm not mistaken it's one of the main ways that men are raped by women. Here's some more info about coercion and other forms of sexual assault as well as common questions about it: https://rainn.org/get-information/types … as-it-rape Now, NO ONE in this thread is saying that a photographer cannot be sexually attracted to a model. Anyone is free to be as sexually attracted to anyone else they desire. And, if a photographer wants to ask me out on a date AFTER the shoot is over, he/she is free to do so. I'll still say "no thanks", but whatever. Sexually harassing a model during a shoot is a completely different matter. Quite frankly, I don't care how little the model is wearing, there's no excuse for making inappropriate comments or advances. Keep it in your goddamn pants and let the model do her job.
Model
MelissaAnn
Posts: 3971
Seattle, Washington, US
This is a great thread for models to check references with. Some really disgusting comments and viewpoints in here.
Assuming a model wants to sleep with you because she's posing nude or provocatively is just dumb, and there's no excuse for an adult male with any sense to assume such a thing. Why do models model? Because they can't get laid? Because they want to sleep with average joes & old men they've never met? Obviously not! Models are doing it for the purpose of making money, or building their portfolio, or to make art. Any photographer who convinces themselves otherwise has some major issues.
Assuming a model wants to sleep with you and acting on that isn't just an uncomfortable situation, or an "oops" that should be overlooked. There's something seriously wrong with anyone that thinks it's okay to make assumptions and get sexual with a model, regardless of how she's posing/what she's wearing (or not wearing). She's there to do a job, and that job isn't having sex with the photographer. People without basic common sense and respect for other human beings shouldn't photograph models. Period.
I personally don't mind the idea that a photographer may find me beautiful or lust after me, I think that's only natural sometimes. As long as they don't act on it, and stay professional (I should never know how they feel about me sexually) than I don't really care. People think all kinds of crazy things that they never act on, and that's okay. Controlling your actions is what's important.
Model
Goodbye4
Posts: 2532
Los Angeles, California, US
Model
Jules NYC
Posts: 21617
New York, New York, US
Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:
Oh I know. Chappelle is also full of shit, IMO. Let me ask you a quick question...
*Not in modeling scenario*
If a woman wears a low cut dress to work and she is literally spilling out it, what kind of response do you think she's looking for? ... and if none, why?
Photographer
jesse paulk
Posts: 3712
Phoenix, Arizona, US
Jules NYC wrote:
Let me ask you a quick question...
*Not in modeling scenario*
If a woman wears a low cut dress to work and she is literally spilling out it, what kind of response do you think she's looking for? ... and if none, why? i wouldnt assume and would not say anything nor judge her.. so difficult, pin a fucking medal on me.
Model
Elizabeta Rosandic
Posts: 953
Santa Fe, New Mexico, US
Jules NYC wrote:
Let me ask you a quick question...
*Not in modeling scenario*
If a woman wears a low cut dress to work and she is literally spilling out it, what kind of response do you think she's looking for? ... and if none, why? It's not any of my or your business to *assume* what kind of response she's looking for.
If said woman is looking to get laid, she has every ability to seek someone out and begin the flirting process. That's very difference from a co-worker saying "hey babe, nice tits" to her because of how she's dressed.
Treating a person as less than human because of how he/she chooses to dress is idiotic.
Model
Elizabeta Rosandic
Posts: 953
Santa Fe, New Mexico, US
jesse paulk wrote:
i wouldnt assume and would not say anything nor judge her.. so difficult, pin a fucking medal on me. *Pins medal*
Done! 
Photographer
Brian Diaz
Posts: 65617
Danbury, Connecticut, US
Jules NYC wrote:
Let me ask you a quick question...
*Not in modeling scenario*
If a woman wears a low cut dress to work and she is literally spilling out it, what kind of response do you think she's looking for? ... and if none, why? I would assume that she would want to be treated like a human being, not an object designed for my sexual gratification.
If it's inappropriate attire for that particular work situation, I don't have the right to sexually harass her.
If it's appropriate attire for that particular work situation, I don't have the right to sexually harass her.
In short, under no circumstances is it okay for me to sexually harass someone in any work situation. Or any other situation.
Photographer
The Sweaty Sock
Posts: 470
Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom
Jules NYC wrote:
Let me ask you a quick question...
*Not in modeling scenario*
If a woman wears a low cut dress to work and she is literally spilling out it, what kind of response do you think she's looking for? ... and if none, why? Why is she looking for a response? Maybe she just thinks she looks nice, or feels confident dressed that way. The same as a guy who likes his ass in tight trousers or his biceps in a tight t-shirt. People like to look good. Doesn't mean they want to be approached for sex. However if they are they shouldn't be too offended by it, or surprised that they are attractive to the opposite sex.
Model
Jules NYC
Posts: 21617
New York, New York, US
Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:
It's not any of my or your business to *assume* what kind of response she's looking for.
If said woman is looking to get laid, she has every ability to seek someone out and begin the flirting process. That's very difference from a co-worker saying "hey babe, nice tits" to her because of how she's dressed.
Treating a person as less than human because of how he/she chooses to dress is idiotic. I get that and I believe anyone can wear anything they want, but I think it is foolish to think that if one wears an inappropriate getup in a corporate setting that if HR doesn't intervene it won't be frowned upon and get a reaction.
I could care less. In fact I've been in that scenario, not the person wearing the getup. There was this woman that wore this see-through sundress to work and she had HUGE boobs. Personally, I didn't find it appealing, not because of the dress or the boobs but I didn't find her to be an attractive woman physically.
Still could care less.
Later in the day, a slew of people complained to HR and she was reprimanded.
If say Sophia from 'Modern Family' wore her regular and was the receptionist, I think the same women would have complained. I still wouldn't have but would have appreciated Sophia wearing it, ha ha
As for harassment, it is still not deserving.
I just think it is not just foolish but pretty stupid to wear something in a corporate setting like that. It is unprofessional.
Model
Jules NYC
Posts: 21617
New York, New York, US
The Sweaty Sock wrote:
Why is she looking for a response? Maybe she just thinks she looks nice, or feels confident dressed that way. The same as a guy who likes his ass in tight trousers or his biceps in a tight t-shirt. People like to look good. Doesn't mean they want to be approached for sex. However if they are they shouldn't be too offended by it, or surprised that they are attractive to the opposite sex. If you work in a corporate setting there are levels of professionalism and wearing outfits that are 'club-style' is not professional, period.
Understand that I got a dress-code detention pretty much everyday in High School so I'm a firm believer in "I can wear what I want" yet in hindsight there are rules and if I didn't like them I could have transferred schools.
Unless a woman is working for a perv, most corporate settings frown upon inappropriate dress, and yes, smashing your tits together to your neck and wearing a low-cut blouse is not appropriate for a corporate setting.
On a glamour shoot, bring it on.
Photographer
Brian Diaz
Posts: 65617
Danbury, Connecticut, US
Jules NYC wrote:
I just think it is not just foolish but pretty stupid to wear something in a corporate setting like that. It is unprofessional. That is true, which is why most companies have codes of conduct, including attire. But violating your company's dress code is not an invitation for unwanted sexual advances.
Model
Jules NYC
Posts: 21617
New York, New York, US
Brian Diaz wrote:
That is true, which is why most companies have codes of conduct, including attire. But violating your company's dress code is not an invitation for unwanted sexual advances. I agree with this completely and it is my stance on it all.
Photographer
Vindictive Images
Posts: 584
Houston, Texas, US
James Jackson Fashion wrote:
There's thousands upon thousands... it's a common law concept from the English legal system that we carried over in to US Common law. People being verbally assaulted have sued many times and won. Well I'd like to see one of those thousands since common law is established by case decisions.
James Jackson Fashion wrote:
Additionally there are some states with statutes that cover this area such as New York: Not sure if a stalking statute can be applied to harassment in the workplace unless we are talking about the strip club customer. Even that NY harassment statute, I'm not sure if "commits an act" includes mere speech given the First Amendment.
Photographer
James Jackson Fashion
Posts: 11132
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US
Vindictive Images wrote:
Well I'd like to see one of those thousands since common law is established by case decisions. I am not a lawyer, but you can feel free to look it up. There are plenty of references that make plain the fact that assault is common law and what the definition of it is.
Vindictive Images wrote:
Not sure if a stalking statute can be applied to harassment in the workplace unless we are talking about the strip club customer. Even that NY harassment statute, I'm not sure if "commits an act" includes mere speech given the First Amendment. This isn't a stalking statute.... it is a harassment statute... it also clearly says it does not supersede or apply in situations where Title VII does. Commits an act clearly includes speech as it says so in the statute.
Model
Elizabeta Rosandic
Posts: 953
Santa Fe, New Mexico, US
Brian Diaz wrote:
I would assume that she would want to be treated like a human being, not an object designed for my sexual gratification.
If it's inappropriate attire for that particular work situation, I don't have the right to sexually harass her.
If it's appropriate attire for that particular work situation, I don't have the right to sexually harass her.
In short, under no circumstances is it okay for me to sexually harass someone in any work situation. Or any other situation. Well said.
Photographer
L o n d o n F o g
Posts: 7497
London, England, United Kingdom
MelissaAnn wrote:
I personally don't mind the idea that a photographer may find me beautiful or lust after me, I think that's only natural sometimes. As long as they don't act on it, and stay professional (I should never know how they feel about me sexually) than I don't really care. People think all kinds of crazy things that they never act on, and that's okay. Controlling your actions is what's important. Aha, at last, thank you for putting it perfectly! And therein in bold lies the difference between a 'professional' who compliments a model for looking super hot, and a douchebag who 'acts' on his impulses without prior consent.
Model
Elizabeta Rosandic
Posts: 953
Santa Fe, New Mexico, US
London Fog wrote:
Aha, at last, thank you for putting it perfectly! And therein in bold lies the difference between a 'professional' who compliments a model for looking super hot, and a douchebag who 'acts' on his impulses without prior consent. Except when those "compliments" are actually sexual harassment, as they often are.
Model
D A N I
Posts: 4627
Little Rock, Arkansas, US
Jules NYC wrote:
Let me ask you a quick question...
*Not in modeling scenario*
If a woman wears a low cut dress to work and she is literally spilling out it, what kind of response do you think she's looking for? ... and if none, why? The way I see it, there's no real reason to wear revealing clothes knowing it will get a negative response unless you're inviting that negative response.
Photographer
L o n d o n F o g
Posts: 7497
London, England, United Kingdom
Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:
Except when those "compliments" are actually sexual harassment, as they often are. You seem very bitter. My guess is you may have been working with the wrong people?
Photographer
WIP
Posts: 15973
Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom
Model
D A N I
Posts: 4627
Little Rock, Arkansas, US
Photographer
Ken Warren Photography
Posts: 933
GLENMOORE, Pennsylvania, US
Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:
Except when those "compliments" are actually sexual harassment, as they often are. London Fog wrote:
You seem very bitter. My guess is you may have been working with the wrong people? I've never met Elizabeta, never worked with her (come to Philly!). But I think I know where she's coming from here.
In the context of a photo shoot, the difference between harassment and appropriate compliments is often the difference between complimenting what she is, and what she's doing. For example:
"I love your butt with the light striking it like that!"
is probably harassment. Because it's not addressing something the model actually has a lot of control of, it's a "nice" way of saying "Hey babe, great ass!"
"I love the way you're standing/sitting/lying so the light grazes your butt and emphasizes your curves!"
is probably not harassment; it compliments what she's doing, not what she intrinsically is.
This isn't black and white, with a clear line of demarcation; probably we all accidentally cross the line every once in a while. But the people who do it constantly know, and don't care, that their behavior upsets a lot of people.
Model
Elizabeta Rosandic
Posts: 953
Santa Fe, New Mexico, US
London Fog wrote:
You seem very bitter. My guess is you may have been working with the wrong people? Yep. I must have been raped or molested all throughout my life, which is why I'm such a bitter, dykey, man-hating bitch, because no woman in her right mind could ever not like sexual harassment.
Or it could be because I don't want to hear how "super hot" my photographer thinks I look during a shoot. Like, at all. Saying things like "this picture turned out great", "nice pose", or anything to that effect is a compliment. But I can't tell you how many times I've heard dudes (not just photographers) say things like "oh wow, your tits are great" or "nice bush" and when I tell them to not say those things to me, the response is "Whyyyyy? I was just complimenting you! You don't have to be so bitchy!"
Model
Elizabeta Rosandic
Posts: 953
Santa Fe, New Mexico, US
Ken Warren Photography wrote:
Elizabeta Rosandic wrote:
Except when those "compliments" are actually sexual harassment, as they often are. I've never met Elizabeta, never worked with her (come to Philly!). But I think I know where she's coming from here.
In the context of a photo shoot, the difference between harassment and appropriate compliments is often the difference between complimenting what she is, and what she's doing. For example:
"I love your butt with the light striking it like that!"
is probably harassment. Because it's not addressing something the model actually has a lot of control of, it's a "nice" way of saying "Hey babe, great ass!"
"I love the way you're standing/sitting/lying so the light grazes your butt and emphasizes your curves!"
is probably not harassment; it compliments what she's doing, not what she intrinsically is.
This isn't black and white, with a clear line of demarcation; probably we all accidentally cross the line every once in a while. But the people who do it constantly know, and don't care, that their behavior upsets a lot of people. You said it much more eloquently than me 
Model
D A N I
Posts: 4627
Little Rock, Arkansas, US
Different strokes for different folks. My best shoots come from photographers who "sexually harass" me as some would put it...oh well.
Photographer
Karl Barbosa Photo
Posts: 55
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Jesus, this thread is long. Important subject, mind you.
Really, it's just stupidly simple. Photography = Work. When you are on a shoot, you are effectively working a job. Would you sexually harass or proposition a co-worker? Obviously not ... so why would it be different here?
If model and photographer wish to hang out *after*, that's fine. I know many model-photographer couples, myself included. But you save shenanigans, approached respectfully, for once work is done.
Photographer
Jerry Nemeth
Posts: 33355
Dearborn, Michigan, US
Danielle Reid wrote:
Different strokes for different folks. My best shoots come from photographers who "sexually harass" me as some would put it...oh well. You are a fun person!
Photographer
Brian Diaz
Posts: 65617
Danbury, Connecticut, US
Danielle Reid wrote:
Different strokes for different folks. My best shoots come from photographers who "sexually harass" me as some would put it...oh well. Different people have different comfort levels. What may be a hostile work environment to one may be very comfortable to you. Also, different types of work call for different terminology. When a model being sexy is intrinsically part of the job, saying that the model is sexy is less likely to cause a problem than if it is not part of the job.
But if you ask someone to discontinue a behavior that you find to be responsible for a hostile work environment, and that behavior continues, I would imagine you would have a problem with that.
Photographer
WIP
Posts: 15973
Cheltenham, England, United Kingdom
Simple solution for any photographer who doesn't want to be called out for harassment / sexual comments ' don't say it think it '.
Photographers says ' looking good ' what he's thinking ' what a great arse and tit's'.
Photographer
Brian Diaz
Posts: 65617
Danbury, Connecticut, US
Danielle Reid wrote:
The way I see it, there's no real reason to wear revealing clothes knowing it will get a negative response unless you're inviting that negative response. Does that work for other types of clothing?
Let's say I go out to dinner in a nice, expensive suit. After dinner, 3 guys, having seen that I was wearing expensive clothing, beat me up and take my watch and wallet.
Was that mugging my fault? I know that some people target people they believe to have money and that my suit could lead someone to believe that about me. Was I inviting someone to mug me?
Model
D A N I
Posts: 4627
Little Rock, Arkansas, US
Jerry Nemeth wrote:
You are a fun person! I try to be. I use to be uptight then I realized life's too short for that shit. I'd rather have fun with fun people.
Photographer
Brian Diaz
Posts: 65617
Danbury, Connecticut, US
Danielle Reid wrote:
I try to be. I use to be uptight then I realized life's too short for that shit. I'd rather have fun with fun people. Hell yeah! That's the point of all of this.
Being sexually harassed is not fun.
Model
D A N I
Posts: 4627
Little Rock, Arkansas, US
Brian Diaz wrote:
Hell yeah! That's the point of all of this.
Being sexually harassed is not fun. You don't think like I do though
Photographer
Jerry Nemeth
Posts: 33355
Dearborn, Michigan, US
Brian Diaz wrote:
Hell yeah! That's the point of all of this.
Being sexually harassed is not fun. The ''so called photographer's" objective was not to photograph the OP but to have sex with her.
Photographer
Llobet Photography
Posts: 4915
Fort Lauderdale, Florida, US
Danielle Reid wrote:
I try to be. I use to be uptight then I realized life's too short for that shit. I'd rather have fun with fun people. +1
Same here!
Photographer
Ken Warren Photography
Posts: 933
GLENMOORE, Pennsylvania, US
Danielle Reid wrote:
Different strokes for different folks. My best shoots come from photographers who "sexually harass" me as some would put it...oh well. that's why I say it's not black and white. Harassment is subjective; something that just makes you work even harder will offend the stuffing out of the next model over...
Model
D A N I
Posts: 4627
Little Rock, Arkansas, US
Ken Warren Photography wrote:
that's why I say it's not black and white. Harassment is subjective; something that just makes you work even harder will offend the stuffing out of the next model over... Based on this thread, just looking at a model will offend her.
Photographer
James Jackson Fashion
Posts: 11132
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US
Ken Warren Photography wrote:
Harassment is subjective Therein lies the problem for those who are identifying themselves as feminists in this thread. In the world of feminism, harassment is not subjective. In the world of day to day interaction some people agree with feminism's definition of harassment and some don't.
Unfortunately this isn't something that's going to be solved in one thread on model mayhem, but it would be nice if everyone left just a little bit of breathing room outside their own definition for other people to live in. If someone says or does something you feel is harassment, your best bet is to give them a warning letting them know you feel crossed. Maybe one day we'll all be giving warnings at the same level, and then it will be obvious where the professionalism starts and stops, but for now, we need space and time to identify the proper way to work with each other... and every new working relationship is a new set of rules.
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