Brian Diaz wrote:
Sounds pointlessly elitist to me.

Why not pare it down to the crux of what you mean and say, "stop and think about what you are doing before you press the shutter release"?

(With film, I had 2 major bad habits: thinking I could fix things in the darkroom (which on occasion I did) and buying food, so I could not afford to develop my film immediately.  The second forced me to forget the circumstances under which I pressed the shutter, making a great deal of learning impossible.)

Brian, somehow you got in two replies in the time I took to type one.

I think pointless elitism can be a good ideal sometimes. Some of us are not as thoughtful as you seem to be naturally, so we need to be hit over the head every now and then to get our brains working.

John Jebbia wrote:
PUT DOWN THE DIGITAL CAMERA and buy a film camera. Digital encourages you to become a ratio shooter. But when you have to pay for film it will force you to stop and think about what you are doing before you press the shutter release..

Once you have that down, then shoot digital. You will not have developed the bad habit of "I'll just fix it in post"

Thoughts?

I agree with you. However one thing came to mind from my own experience.

First: I have just recently added digital to my shooting - I have always shot transparency film.

Probably the most significant progression in the quality of my work early on, resulted from the purchase of a polaroid back for my Nikon. I could finally preview my lighting which was huge at the time.

Since digital in many respects, can be considered a "polaroid back on steroids" - particularly when teathered...

I think this aspect would be considered a good thing - creating ostensibly, better photographers (technically) more quickly....

No? Yes?

John

XtremeArtists wrote:
I think pointless elitism can be a good ideal sometimes.

I'm a proponent of elitism but not pointlessness.  The elitism should be for good work, not an arbitrary medium.

XA wrote:
Some of us are not as thoughtful as you seem to be naturally, so we need to be hit over the head every now and then to get our brains working.

Like an old TV or a stylist?

jbex wrote:
I think the main frustration is that newbies lack respect for the craft.

That's a very good point--one with which I completely agree.

But I don't think that simply using film will change that any.  Slowing down and thinking will.  Film has nothing to do with it.

Brian Diaz wrote:
But I don't think that simply using film will change that any.  Slowing down and thinking will.  Film has nothing to do with it.

I'm not so sure about that... When you have to pay for your mistakes you tend to learn a little better.

Sorta like the more expensive beer is, the less it takes for me to get drunk...

I'm not saying go out and spend thousands of dollars on a film camera. A simple Nikon N80 or equivalent will suffice... I just think if you learn on film you will be better off when you switch to digital.

MHana wrote:
shoot 8 x 10

Can I use 4x5 roll film at least?

Brian Diaz wrote:
Sounds pointlessly elitist to me.

No reason to attack. I'm simply starting a discussion that has nothing to do with "getting aroused during a shoot", "How to properly hit on a model", "How to get a knobber after the shoot"

And this discussion might actually help someone become a better photographer. I know it helped me.

Brian Diaz wrote:
Like an old TV or a stylist?

Let's find a way to make all the threads refer to each other. I think that would be fun!!

DigitalCMH wrote:
Are you next going to tell me only real photographers use Canon?

No, Nikon

John Jebbia wrote:

No reason to attack. I'm simply starting a discussion that has nothing to do with "getting aroused during a shoot", "How to properly hit on a model", "How to get a knobber after the shoot"

And this discussion might actually help someone become a better photographer. I know it helped me.

No attack was intended.  That's just my opinion of what you said.  I think your intentions are great, but I disagree with the methodology.

DigitalCMH wrote:
Nah, I'll continuing shooting 100% digital.  If that is handicapping me from being as good as you film folk, that's fine.  I'm happy, the girls I shoot are happy.  That's all I care about.  And I still manage to improve each time.

It's not so much the medium as what the medium breeds.. You can be a bad ass digital photographer, I know plenty and I see their books coming across my desk constantly. It's the surge in newbie folks who lack the respect for the craft in general. I know a bunch of crappy 35mm users as well and it is frustrating as well.

Keep on using digital if it works for you...

John Jebbia wrote:

No, Nikon

I guess I'm doing one thing right then

Robert_Vega wrote:
true talent comes from film.
that's why it will never be obsolete.

Did I mention pointless elitism?

John Jebbia wrote:
One more thing about learning with film as opposed to digital. Less freaking settings to worry about with film. No white balance, no contrast setting, no sharpness settings, no worries about which color space to shoot with, no worries about RAW vs JPG...

All I am saying is learn the basics on film. Shutter speed, film speed, type of film, aperture..  Then move on to the more advanced digital settings..

What about TMax vs. Tri-X vs. HP5?  Contrast filters?  Hydroquinone?

Unsharp mask was a darkroom technique long before it was a Photoshop technique.

The same basics apply to digital cameras.

Brian Diaz wrote:
Unsharp mask was a darkroom technique long before it was a Photoshop technique.

I knew someone would get me on that.. and I was thinking about it as I typed.. I know choosing film, etc and darkroom techniques..

I'm talking true basics.. learning to control light, effects of DOF, lenses, shutter speed...

This post was for the true beginner. Not someone who already knows how to process their own film.

Besides, once you know which film to use in certain situations
the better prepared you will be to learn about white balance.

Jhoneil wrote:
I think photographers should put down the camera and learn how to paint. I can imagine painters saying this when the camera was invented

That's honestly a fantastic idea.  Drawing and painting classes will teach you a lot about light and composition.

jbex wrote:
It's not so much the medium as what the medium breeds.. You can be a bad ass digital photographer, I know plenty and I see their books coming across my desk constantly. It's the surge in newbie folks who lack the respect for the craft in general. I know a bunch of crappy 35mm users as well and it is frustrating as well.

Keep on using digital if it works for you...

In this respect, I have to agree.  Without telling anyone where I work, we have a product that about 5 years ago was revolutionary but too expensive for anyone but professionals to use.  Professionals meaning, those using it to make money.  Current day, we have the same product but in a much more advanced state.  The quality now versus then is astounding.  With that improvement costs have been reduced.  Now retired people with cash on hand, amateurs, and other semi-pro people can now afford these products.  And sometimes, because of how ignorant these people are of digital technology from cameras, scanners, photoshop, computers, CPU speeds, OS versions, Mac vs Windows, we bang our heads on our desks wondering WHY WHY WHY are these people buying this stuff when they obviously haven't a clue how to use anything.

And they why is simply, in my opinion, because it is affordable to them.  Even if we feel they have no business being involved, they've got the cash.

This is good and bad. 

Bad, because you get knuckleheads trying to do something they have no talent or skills to do.

Good, because it has allowed people like me who does not have a lot of money to afford an awesome camera (Nikon D70) and discover a passion for a hobby that I have never had during my previous 32 years of life.

I owe my photography to digital.  I took some pictures back in the 90s with a film camera.  They came out so horrible that I quit.

Brian Diaz wrote:
That's honestly a fantastic idea.  Drawing and painting classes will teach you a lot about light and composition.

You obviously have not seen any of my drawings

DigitalCMH wrote:
Without telling anyone where I work, we have a product that about 5 years ago was revolutionary but too expensive for anyone but professionals to use.  Professionals meaning, those using it to make money.

You work in a meth lab? I'm just kidding.

John Jebbia wrote:
You work in a meth lab? I'm just kidding.

I do not appreciate the outting!  There goes your discount!